Question about APA rule and also a funny rule you might not know of.

S

spindoctor9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have APA regionals this weekend and I have a question. APA does not allow jump cues, of this I am aware. I was told yesterday that this rule extends to not allow a change of cues period during the rack. I can jump with my playing cue no problem, but I like to use my break cue instead so that I don't flatten/dent my playing tips. Is this an actual rule or can I change to another full size cue mid rack? What about a jump shot immediately following the break? If I break and then have to jump at the 1 ball, am I stuck using my break cue that rack? Any help would be appreciated.

Here's another great APA rule I learned of last weekend. My team was at 8 ball tri-cups. Scratch on the break in APA results in cue ball behind the headstring, not ball in hand anywhere. My teammate's opponent took ball in hand down table and made his shot before we noticed. A ref was called and he said this is a foul, however he gets to continue shooting because we didn't catch him in the act and call foul before the shot...???.... so apparently you can take ball in hand and as long as you shoot before your opponent stops you, it's a fair ball. If they call the foul after you set the cue ball but before you stroke, the cue ball must be handed over to the opponent. Retarded rule if you ask me. Just thought I'd share that, as I've never heard of this in my 2 years of APA as a 7/8 co captain.
 
spindoctor9 said:
I have APA regionals this weekend and I have a question. APA does not allow jump cues, of this I am aware. I was told yesterday that this rule extends to not allow a change of cues period during the rack. I can jump with my playing cue no problem, but I like to use my break cue instead so that I don't flatten/dent my playing tips. Is this an actual rule or can I change to another full size cue mid rack? What about a jump shot immediately following the break? If I break and then have to jump at the 1 ball, am I stuck using my break cue that rack? Any help would be appreciated.

Here's another great APA rule I learned of last weekend. My team was at 8 ball tri-cups. Scratch on the break in APA results in cue ball behind the headstring, not ball in hand anywhere. My teammate's opponent took ball in hand down table and made his shot before we noticed. A ref was called and he said this is a foul, however he gets to continue shooting because we didn't catch him in the act and call foul before the shot...???.... so apparently you can take ball in hand and as long as you shoot before your opponent stops you, it's a fair ball. If they call the foul after you set the cue ball but before you stroke, the cue ball must be handed over to the opponent. Retarded rule if you ask me. Just thought I'd share that, as I've never heard of this in my 2 years of APA as a 7/8 co captain.
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I do believe it is illegal to change playing cues during a match. Also, if you break down any of your cues at any time during the match it counts as a loss so you cant switch to a different shaft in order to jump using your playing cue.


That last one is wrong I believe. If you let the opponent shoot more than one ball it can no longer be called. If however you call the foul after the first shot but before the second it should count as a foul.
 
I think that they actually changed the rule regarding switching sticks during a game, so that you can now switch sticks. I'd have to check the rule book to be certain, and by-laws may apply.

As for the BiH off the break.. yes, you should pay attention to make sure that the opponent does what they're suppose to. I'm not quite sure of how the rule applies to after-the-fact fouls, or at least that one. But, the idea that you can just run up to the table and intentionally shoot a bad shot before your opponent can stop you would get you a foot in your backside by most refs and LOs that I've seen. Screwing up and nobody paying attention is one thing, trying to cheat is something else entirely.
 
The rule states you cannot use a jump cue or a specifically designed cue such as a jump/break. You cannot switch to your break cue to jump, either.

If you have a jump immediately after the break and use your break cue to jump, you must use your break cue to shoot the remainder of the rack.

That said - If you ask your opponent if you can switch cues and he/she agrees, then it would be fine. I know a lot of players that feel the same as you and will usually ask to switch cues to jump if needed.
 
zpele said:
I do believe it is illegal to change playing cues during a match. Also, if you break down any of your cues at any time during the match it counts as a loss so you cant switch to a different shaft in order to jump using your playing cue.


That last one is wrong I believe. If you let the opponent shoot more than one ball it can no longer be called. If however you call the foul after the first shot but before the second it should count as a foul.
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It is legal to switch shafts from a break shaft to a playing shaft but you still must shoot and jump with your regular playing cue.

Kim
 
spindoctor9 said:
I have APA regionals this weekend and I have a question. APA does not allow jump cues, of this I am aware. I was told yesterday that this rule extends to not allow a change of cues period during the rack. I can jump with my playing cue no problem, but I like to use my break cue instead so that I don't flatten/dent my playing tips. Is this an actual rule or can I change to another full size cue mid rack? What about a jump shot immediately following the break? If I break and then have to jump at the 1 ball, am I stuck using my break cue that rack? Any help would be appreciated.

Here's another great APA rule I learned of last weekend. My team was at 8 ball tri-cups. Scratch on the break in APA results in cue ball behind the headstring, not ball in hand anywhere. My teammate's opponent took ball in hand down table and made his shot before we noticed. A ref was called and he said this is a foul, however he gets to continue shooting because we didn't catch him in the act and call foul before the shot...???.... so apparently you can take ball in hand and as long as you shoot before your opponent stops you, it's a fair ball. If they call the foul after you set the cue ball but before you stroke, the cue ball must be handed over to the opponent. Retarded rule if you ask me. Just thought I'd share that, as I've never heard of this in my 2 years of APA as a 7/8 co captain.
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The first one is not a foul just unsportman like conduct. No ball in hand.

The second one..... there is no foul before the cue ball is struck...... so there is no ball in hand for placing the cue ball anywhere.

Kim
 
zpele said:
I do believe it is illegal to change playing cues during a match. Also, if you break down any of your cues at any time during the match it counts as a loss so you cant switch to a different shaft in order to jump using your playing cue.


That last one is wrong I believe. If you let the opponent shoot more than one ball it can no longer be called. If however you call the foul after the first shot but before the second it should count as a foul.
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I believe this is correct.
 
whammo57 said:
The first one is not a foul just unsportman like conduct. No ball in hand.

The second one..... there is no foul before the cue ball is struck...... so there is no ball in hand for placing the cue ball anywhere.

Kim
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That is what I thought but it seems like some of the refs at APA events are a little... quirky... to be nice. I've had refs call a bad hit on me when even a 4 or 5 could easily tell it was good.

There was a ref at 9 ball tri cups two weeks ago whom I know pretty well, and she is a skill level 3. She is a bit underqualified to be reffing a match between an 8 and a 9 in my opinion. She tried to call a bad hit on my opponent when it was clearly clean, so I refused to take ball in hand. She was pissed lol.

As for it being illegal to switch to your break cue for a jump shot... that is just ridiculous. The last thing I want to do it break or flatten a tip in the middle of an important match...... 3 rail kicks it is lol
 
Straight from the manual:

'The cue ball must be in as described above before play can begin. It is up
to the opponent to check to be sure the cue ball is in before it is shot.
This is not a foul; no penalty may be assessed. If the cue ball is out, the
shooter must place the cue ball behind the head string. To refuse and
shoot anyway would be considered a sportsmanship violation to be
reported to the League Office.'

Also... Look on page 8 of this document for the official ruling on breaking your cue apart to jump with a different shaft:

http://akron.apaleagues.com/Uploads/akron/Unique Rulings.pdf
 
Just about everyone in the thread so far has this one wrong. Kim is ALMOST right, but there's nothing in the rules that says you must shoot with your regular playing cue.

Even the ref in the original post was wrong. It is NOT a foul to take ball in hand outside the kitchen after the break, you're just supposed to be in the kitchen. If you notice it before the shot, the player is supposed to move the cue ball into the kitchen, but if you let them shoot play continues as normal.

The rule about jump cues specifically says you cannot use a jump cue (or a cue designed for jumping, like a jump/break cue) to shoot a jump shot. You may shoot any other shot with a jump cue, and you can shoot a jump shot with just about any other cue, but you can't shoot a jump shot with a jump cue. FWIW, I agree that this is a dumb rule. I think they should either outlaw the jump shot or allow the jump cue, but believe it or not APA has valid reasons for stating the rule the way they do. First, outlawing the shot creates disputes when someone accidentally (or not) bounces the cue ball. Someone (probably the guy who shouts "double hit!" in his screeching granny voice from way across the bar) will undoubtedly cry foul every time. Second, if you allow the cue, players (namely the very beginner players) would be buying jump cues and using them improperly. Ask Robin Dodson if she can teach an APA 2 how to jump. Out of respect for the locations and their tables, APA chooses to disallow the jump cue for jump shots, while allowing the shot itself to avoid the controversy and drama I mentioned earlier.
 
Sounds like lots of local rules. A couple of years ago it was a foul to switch cues for a specific purpose other than breaking. Back then you could use your break cue to break but had to switch up right after the break. I know kooky APA players that put together 4 cues before a match and try to use them all, one to break, one to shoot, one to draw, ... and so on. What I was told from the good folks in St. Louis is unless the stick breaks or the tip falls off or someone runs up and steal it or baring some other tragedy, you should be prepared to play at least that inning with the cue you stepped to the table with. I believe that breaking down your cue for any purpose (unless by mistake, miscount of games or something like that) is, or could be, interpreted as a concession of the match. If you intend to switch shafts after the break, I'd clear it with my opponent and the opposite captain. You try doing that in a regional or at the NTC or on the National Level and watch someone's head burst, what a mess. Look at the APA HLT rules it may be a little clearer in there, bottom line is don't try to switch up for one shot excepting the break.
 
APA Operator said:
Just about everyone in the thread so far has this one wrong. Kim is ALMOST right, but there's nothing in the rules that says you must shoot with your regular playing cue.

Even the ref in the original post was wrong. It is NOT a foul to take ball in hand outside the kitchen after the break, you're just supposed to be in the kitchen. If you notice it before the shot, the player is supposed to move the cue ball into the kitchen, but if you let them shoot play continues as normal.

The rule about jump cues specifically says you cannot use a jump cue (or a cue designed for jumping, like a jump/break cue) to shoot a jump shot. You may shoot any other shot with a jump cue, and you can shoot a jump shot with just about any other cue, but you can't shoot a jump shot with a jump cue. FWIW, I agree that this is a dumb rule. I think they should either outlaw the jump shot or allow the jump cue, but believe it or not APA has valid reasons for stating the rule the way they do. First, outlawing the shot creates disputes when someone accidentally (or not) bounces the cue ball. Someone (probably the guy who shouts "double hit!" in his screeching granny voice from way across the bar) will undoubtedly cry foul every time. Second, if you allow the cue, players (namely the very beginner players) would be buying jump cues and using them improperly. Ask Robin Dodson if she can teach an APA 2 how to jump. Out of respect for the locations and their tables, APA chooses to disallow the jump cue for jump shots, while allowing the shot itself to avoid the controversy and drama I mentioned earlier.
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APA Operator...you should reread the rulebook regarding jump shots. The rule has changed in the last few years. Jump shots must be performed using your *regular playing cue*. See page 40 of the 2010-2012 rulebook. Section 33 specifically says "but such shots must be attempted using your regular shooting cue. Players are not allowed to break down their cues or switch to specialty cues (such as cues designed for jumping and/or breaking) to attempt masse or jump shots". In the back of the book, in the definitions, they define "regular shooting cue" as "Any standard pool cue used to shoot the majority of shots in a match." You are *almost* correct in that you can change your cues as often as you wish. In theory, you could shoot every other shot with your "playing" cue and your break cue, and then be good to use the break cue for jump shots. Likewise, you could simply shoot all your shots with a jump cue. I see no rule specifically prohibiting jump cues, only a rule prohibiting jumping with a cue that you shoot less than 50% of your shots with.

Hope this helps,

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
APA Operator...you should reread the rulebook regarding jump shots. The rule has changed in the last few years. Jump shots must be performed using your *regular playing cue*. See page 40 of the 2010-2012 rulebook. Section 33 specifically says "but such shots must be attempted using your regular shooting cue. Players are not allowed to break down their cues or switch to specialty cues (such as cues designed for jumping and/or breaking) to attempt masse or jump shots". In the back of the book, in the definitions, they define "regular shooting cue" as "Any standard pool cue used to shoot the majority of shots in a match." You are *almost* correct in that you can change your cues as often as you wish. In theory, you could shoot every other shot with your "playing" cue and your break cue, and then be good to use the break cue for jump shots. Likewise, you could simply shoot all your shots with a jump cue. I see no rule specifically prohibiting jump cues, only a rule prohibiting jumping with a cue that you shoot less than 50% of your shots with.

Hope this helps,

KMRUNOUT
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So according to this rule, I could approach the table with and jump cue and begin play, but if I encountered a situation where a jump shot or a masse' shot was appropriate, I'd have to switch to a regular cue? The similar rule in the prior Team Manual was much more clear, it stated that you could any piece of equipment specifically designed for pocket billiards with the exception of a laser device or a jump cue. Perhaps the thought was that the language needed to be changed for those times we find ourselves right next to a wall or in a tight space and a shorter cue is warranted, at those times you could shoot with a jump cue or a short for convenience sake you just can't attempt to execute a jump shot with a jump cue. Of course, that's just a thought...
 
Celophanewrap said:
So according to this rule, I could approach the table with and jump cue and begin play, but if I encountered a situation where a jump shot or a masse' shot was appropriate, I'd have to switch to a regular cue? The similar rule in the prior Team Manual was much more clear, it stated that you could any piece of equipment specifically designed for pocket billiards with the exception of a laser device or a jump cue. Perhaps the thought was that the language needed to be changed for those times we find ourselves right next to a wall or in a tight space and a shorter cue is warranted, at those times you could shoot with a jump cue or a short for convenience sake you just can't attempt to execute a jump shot with a jump cue. Of course, that's just a thought...
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Although it isn't in the rule book, our area has always observed the rule that if there is no short cue provided by the house for obstructions, that anything goes...jump cue, plain shaft, etc.

Also, the way I read this rule you CAN use a jump cue for a jump shot as long as that is the cue you have shot at least 50% of your shots with. It doesn't say you can't. Your jump cue would become your "regular shooting cue" by that definition, and hence legal to use to execute any shot, including jumps.

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Although it isn't in the rule book, our area has always observed the rule that if there is no short cue provided by the house for obstructions, that anything goes...jump cue, plain shaft, etc.

Also, the way I read this rule you CAN use a jump cue for a jump shot as long as that is the cue you have shot at least 50% of your shots with. It doesn't say you can't. Your jump cue would become your "regular shooting cue" by that definition, and hence legal to use to execute any shot, including jumps.

KMRUNOUT
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You may be right. At which point does the jump cue cease to be a "specialty" cue? what a conundrum !
 
APA Operator said:
Even the ref in the original post was wrong. It is NOT a foul to take ball in hand outside the kitchen after the break, you're just supposed to be in the kitchen. If you notice it before the shot, the player is supposed to move the cue ball into the kitchen, but if you let them shoot play continues as normal.
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LOL? I have to advice player who breaking the rules not to do it???

Did you advice to warn opponent if he/she try to pocket higher numer ball in 9 ball? If i didn't play continues as normal ? :rolleyes:
 
You guys are making this more complicated than it is. You can use your playing cue to execute a jump shot. You cannot use a break/jump cue or break your cue down to jump. End of story.
 
peter_gunn said:
LOL? I have to advice player who breaking the rules not to do it???

Did you advice to warn opponent if he/she try to pocket higher numer ball in 9 ball? If i didn't play continues as normal ? :rolleyes:
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If your opponent is shooting the wrong ball you do not have to say a word. In 8ball with a scratch on the break, if the cue ball is placed outside the kitchen you need to tell them to put it behind the line. The responsibilty is on the opponent to make sure this is happening.
 
TheNewSharkster said:
If your opponent is shooting the wrong ball you do not have to say a word. In 8ball with a scratch on the break, if the cue ball is placed outside the kitchen you need to tell them to put it behind the line. The responsibilty is on the opponent to make sure this is happening.
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You need to tell him if he cross the line a little. Like on the break shot. Not if he went with cue ball anywhere on the table.

Its maybe true if USA rules are different than ours in Europe.. :frown:
 
peter_gunn said:
You need to tell him if he cross the line a little. Like on the break shot. Not if he went with cue ball anywhere on the table.

Its maybe true if USA rules are different than ours in Europe.. :frown:
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Remember, this rule is for the APA - an amature league designed for people that want a fun/social night out with pool.
 
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