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Simonis 860 glue down method - 06-09-2012, 09:56 AM

Greetings all

I have a valley 7 ft table and I am replacing the cloth with 860. I bought the DVD from Simonis for the rails and bed. Nicely done RKC! However, in the video for glueing the rails and the bed cloth, they use 3M super77 spary adhesive. If you go to Simonis web site it says...

http://www.simoniscloth.com/installa...on-information

Note for Glue-Down Installations

Simonis cloth can be glued, but only with certain adhesives. Most spray adhesives, WILL NOT hold the cloth in a edge-glue application.

We recommend 3M Fast-Bond10 for edge-glue glue-down installations. Currently, we are not aware of any other adhesives that will give proper adhesion for a straight edge-glue install.

Before I start the work, can someone advise...RKC????
  
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06-09-2012, 09:58 AM

Spray glue for the covering the rails.

Fast Bond for the bed cloth.


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06-09-2012, 10:06 AM

Thanks Rev...I was leaning that route. For the record, in the DVD he does use 77 on the bed...?? Where can I get the Fastbond...Homedepot or something local?
  
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06-09-2012, 10:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve8ball View Post
Thanks Rev...I was leaning that route. For the record, in the DVD he does use 77 on the bed...?? Where can I get the Fastbond...Homedepot or something local?
No home depot or lowes around here carries. I usually order it in 5 gallon buckets, so I am a little out of the loop for that. Maybe try a smaller specialty hardware store, auto upholstery place, or possibly a flooring company if you want to get it locally. It can be ordered online by the quart.

Link

About a third down the page.
Link


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Last edited by reverend; 06-09-2012 at 10:27 AM.
  
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06-09-2012, 01:48 PM

I got a quart on Amazon.com for $28.36 plus shipping.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000S7ANOS/...760_C1_3p_dp_1
  
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06-09-2012, 07:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve8ball View Post
Greetings all

I have a valley 7 ft table and I am replacing the cloth with 860. I bought the DVD from Simonis for the rails and bed. Nicely done RKC! However, in the video for glueing the rails and the bed cloth, they use 3M super77 spary adhesive. If you go to Simonis web site it says...

http://www.simoniscloth.com/installa...on-information

Note for Glue-Down Installations

Simonis cloth can be glued, but only with certain adhesives. Most spray adhesives, WILL NOT hold the cloth in a edge-glue application.

We recommend 3M Fast-Bond10 for edge-glue glue-down installations. Currently, we are not aware of any other adhesives that will give proper adhesion for a straight edge-glue install.

Before I start the work, can someone advise...RKC????
I didn't demonstraight the FB10 glue down on the Valley slate because it really don't help of a person wanting to use the method can't get the glue. Jay did a great job of showing how he uses 3M77 to install the bed cloth, and spray gluing the rails is the best way of installing the rail cloth for sure. I'll be working with 3M later this year to try and create a roll on glue that can be shipped with no problem, then I'll make the DVD again for installing the bed cloth for free with the purchase of a quart of the new glue.

Glen
  
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06-09-2012, 08:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by realkingcobra View Post
I didn't demonstraight the FB10 glue down on the Valley slate because it really don't help of a person wanting to use the method can't get the glue. Jay did a great job of showing how he uses 3M77 to install the bed cloth, and spray gluing the rails is the best way of installing the rail cloth for sure. I'll be working with 3M later this year to try and create a roll on glue that can be shipped with no problem, then I'll make the DVD again for installing the bed cloth for free with the purchase of a quart of the new glue.

Glen
Awsome Cobra...Is the method with the spray on the DVD kinda the same, just use the roll on instead?
  
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06-09-2012, 08:50 PM

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Originally Posted by steve8ball View Post
Awsome Cobra...Is the method with the spray on the DVD kinda the same, just use the roll on instead?
Follow the GC4 staple down method, only use a 1 1/2" side to side stretch, and the slack in the first side pocket is 3/8"s and the opposite side pocket is 1/4"...everything else is the same.

Glen
  
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Three surfaces versus one
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Three surfaces versus one - 06-11-2012, 07:38 AM

When Glen and I did the videos for Simonis, we had a lot of discussion about the "glue down" method. We had to take into consideration that many states are not allowed to sell the 3M 10 adhesive. Since the videos were being sold into states and country's without access to the glue that both Glen and I use and recommend, we had to show how to "glue" a cloth down with a glue that is available everywhere.

When you see the video recovering a Valley 1 piece slate, you'll notice that the gluing pattern is 3/4 of on inch on the top surface, 3/4 of an inch on the vertical edge and 3/4 of an inch on the bottom surface of the slate. By attaching the cloth on the three surfaces you will have enough bonding area even with spray adhesive to stretch the cloth tightly. Furthermore, when you glue cloth to the bottom surface of the slate, the weight of the slate against the frame members also holds the cloth in place.

To glue cloth the way that Glen and I do, you need an industrial strength adhesive such as Scotch Weld. With the right adhesive you need only glue the single vertical edge to attach the bed cloth. 3M 77 which we all carry for doing rails, pocket cuffs etc... can be used, you'll just need a different technique, as demonstrated in the video.

Jay
  
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06-11-2012, 09:32 AM

Thanks Jay, that makes a lot more sense. As Cobra said, I'll use the FB10 and follow the staple down method with 1 1/2 side to side stretch. BTW Jay, I followed your method for Valley rails and it came out PERFECT. I mean, I tried to recover some practice rails first (so I could learn before the real deal, I used the old bed cloth and old rails) and I was tring to replicate how the old rails were covered...wasn't working for me. I got the video, followed your steps and the first rail I did looks absolutly perfect. Looks very professional...
  
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06-14-2012, 10:28 AM

Glad to hear it's working for you. The idea behind the videos was to allow mechanics and installers to be comfortable working with Simonis cloth on various tables and scenarios. As Glen has stated many times, "if you can install Simonis correctly you can install any cloth".

The one thing you can't get away with when using Simonis cloth is "guessing" about the pattern, or stretch index. If you get in the habit of following the indexing process it will help you get better results with any cloth.

Jay
  
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06-14-2012, 11:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve8ball View Post
Thanks Jay, that makes a lot more sense. As Cobra said, I'll use the FB10 and follow the staple down method with 1 1/2 side to side stretch. BTW Jay, I followed your method for Valley rails and it came out PERFECT. I mean, I tried to recover some practice rails first (so I could learn before the real deal, I used the old bed cloth and old rails) and I was tring to replicate how the old rails were covered...wasn't working for me. I got the video, followed your steps and the first rail I did looks absolutly perfect. Looks very professional...
The first time I ever showed anyone how I recover the Valley style rails using the 3M77 spray glue and staples was at the training seminar in Alsip, IL. Many of the table mechanic's had left already because it was on day 3 that I brought out a set of Ridgeback rails to demonstrate how to install the rail cloth on. When Jay saw how easy and fast it was to recover the Valley style rails with my method...I'm still not a 100% sure to this day...but I could have sworn I saw a glimmer of a tear in his eyes as he said to me..."Could you show me that AGAIN, you went to fast on the first rail! I asked Jay how he did the rails, to which he explained how....and that was how everyone he knew did them the same way...I was like...you have GOT to be KIDDING me...WOW. Needless to say, I had some fun with Jay as I did the next rail even faster just to tease him a little but Jay picked up on it faster than anyone I've ever shown how to recover the Valley rails...so, he was off and running. He's a great table mechanic...he's not as lazy as I am...so he don't look for the easy way out on some things like I do
  
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06-15-2012, 09:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by realkingcobra View Post
The first time I ever showed anyone how I recover the Valley style rails using the 3M77 spray glue and staples was at the training seminar in Alsip, IL. Many of the table mechanic's had left already because it was on day 3 that I brought out a set of Ridgeback rails to demonstrate how to install the rail cloth on. When Jay saw how easy and fast it was to recover the Valley style rails with my method...I'm still not a 100% sure to this day...but I could have sworn I saw a glimmer of a tear in his eyes as he said to me..."Could you show me that AGAIN, you went to fast on the first rail! I asked Jay how he did the rails, to which he explained how....and that was how everyone he knew did them the same way...I was like...you have GOT to be KIDDING me...WOW. Needless to say, I had some fun with Jay as I did the next rail even faster just to tease him a little but Jay picked up on it faster than anyone I've ever shown how to recover the Valley rails...so, he was off and running. He's a great table mechanic...he's not as lazy as I am...so he don't look for the easy way out on some things like I do
I was there too when you did the rails in Alsip. My reaction was the same. In fact, I think Jay and I looked at each other and without saying a word understood that you'd gone too fast for either of us to catch it!

If my memory was correct, the next thing either of us said was "Damn, I've been doing those the hard way for XX years!" Love it. The rails look so much cleaner and tighter and it honestly is MUCH easier to cover them using that method.


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06-15-2012, 11:24 AM

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Originally Posted by realkingcobra View Post
The first time I ever showed anyone how I recover the Valley style rails using the 3M77 spray glue and staples was at the training seminar in Alsip, IL. Many of the table mechanic's had left already because it was on day 3 that I brought out a set of Ridgeback rails to demonstrate how to install the rail cloth on. When Jay saw how easy and fast it was to recover the Valley style rails with my method...I'm still not a 100% sure to this day...but I could have sworn I saw a glimmer of a tear in his eyes as he said to me..."Could you show me that AGAIN, you went to fast on the first rail! I asked Jay how he did the rails, to which he explained how....and that was how everyone he knew did them the same way...I was like...you have GOT to be KIDDING me...WOW. Needless to say, I had some fun with Jay as I did the next rail even faster just to tease him a little but Jay picked up on it faster than anyone I've ever shown how to recover the Valley rails...so, he was off and running. He's a great table mechanic...he's not as lazy as I am...so he don't look for the easy way out on some things like I do
The speed is one thing, but with the Simonis, getting it to not pucker, not having to much excess cloth on certain areas and still be flush enough so the rail will bolt up flush...Great method Glen..nice job.
  
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