IPT Qualifiers

jay helfert

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
I have a concern about all the qualifiers the IPT is planning prior to the next tournament in July. I intend to address my concerns with Deno in a PM this week.
With a rumored 25 more qualifiers for the 50 open spots at 1K per player, that is a lot of sheckels being paid into the IPT with little going out, other than a chance to play in only ONE tournament.
Something about this equation doesn't work so well for me. And maybe that's just me. I laid out 2K plus expenses already for a player to play in one qualifier and helped a second player with expenses. I'm not so sure I want to continue my sponsorship of players in this ensuing round of qualifiers.
Right now this is beginning to look like the Qualifier Tour and not the IPT.
 
jay helfert said:
I have a concern about all the qualifiers the IPT is planning prior to the next tournament in July. I intend to address my concerns with Deno in a PM this week.
With a rumored 25 more qualifiers for the 50 open spots at 1K per player, that is a lot of sheckels being paid into the IPT with little going out, other than a chance to play in only ONE tournament.
Something about this equation doesn't work so well for me. And maybe that's just me. I laid out 2K plus expenses already for a player to play in one qualifier and helped a second player with expenses. I'm not so sure I want to continue my sponsorship of players in this ensuing round of qualifiers.
Right now this is beginning to look like the Qualifier Tour and not the IPT.
Click to expand...

I have been banging this drum for sometime, without question ALL the players feel this way, most fans probably agree, and a few IPT players also agree. I exchanged PM's with Deno a couple of weeks ago and he agreed to answer a couple of questions so I sent him an email. I haven't received a reply yet but no doubt he's been very busy with weert and the other qualifiers - I hope he replies this week.

These qualifiers have been exciting, they've done a great job with the website, and we have our first 10 IPT players that have earned their cards.

However this does not mean the qualifiers can't be improved, I hope the IPT can lower the entry and hold fewer qualifiers with more spots per event. This will save time, be fairer in the players and their backers, probably bring in the same amount of cash and take much less time.

I hope these changes are made for the the benifits of all.

Cheers
 
jay helfert said:
I have a concern about all the qualifiers the IPT is planning prior to the next tournament in July. I intend to address my concerns with Deno in a PM this week.
With a rumored 25 more qualifiers for the 50 open spots at 1K per player, that is a lot of sheckels being paid into the IPT with little going out, other than a chance to play in only ONE tournament.
Something about this equation doesn't work so well for me. And maybe that's just me. I laid out 2K plus expenses already for a player to play in one qualifier and helped a second player with expenses. I'm not so sure I want to continue my sponsorship of players in this ensuing round of qualifiers.
Right now this is beginning to look like the Qualifier Tour and not the IPT.
Click to expand...

If there was ever an award to go out to one of pool's strongest supporters, Jay Helfert, your name should go to the top of the list, no question about it. Before I "met" you on AzBilliards, your good name has been mentioned by many a player and fan of the sport. You make things happen, and your actions do speak much louder than your words.

About the qualifiers, I don't know enough about the upcoming qualifiers, other than the entry fee is, in fact, $1,000 for non-IPT members. The recent IPT qualifiers' top prize was a tour card.

The upcoming qualifiers for the 25 spots are still in the making with no date certain. I hope that those who do venture out to attend these events are given the opportunity to make some dough at the qualifiers, such as the challenge games with Sigel and other IPT members, 8-on-the-breaks, running a 6-pack, et cetera.

Truth be told, Jay, the expenses we will incur to attend the first event will exceed anything I have ever encountered on the tournament trail, to include payouts for many first-place wins. I know it will be very difficult financially for most, unless they are born with a silver spoon in their mouth. At this juncture, I don't know how I'm going to get past April 15th with Uncle Sam, much less the Venetian in July.

I sincerely hope that you are rewarded for everything that you have contributed to date. You are truly one of the good guys! :)

JAM
 
Pardon me for not really keeping up with all of this, but are these 25 qualifiers going to be taking place soon? I thought the IPT tour is supposed to start soon, and they already had 150. I didn't bother to count, so please fill me in on what's going on.
 
jay helfert said:
I have a concern about all the qualifiers the IPT is planning prior to the next tournament in July. I intend to address my concerns with Deno in a PM this week.
With a rumored 25 more qualifiers for the 50 open spots at 1K per player, that is a lot of sheckels being paid into the IPT with little going out, other than a chance to play in only ONE tournament.
Something about this equation doesn't work so well for me. And maybe that's just me. I laid out 2K plus expenses already for a player to play in one qualifier and helped a second player with expenses. I'm not so sure I want to continue my sponsorship of players in this ensuing round of qualifiers.
Right now this is beginning to look like the Qualifier Tour and not the IPT.
Click to expand...
Hi Jay,
your post reminded me of some thing that happened more than 20 years ago in Asburry Park, NJ.There was a psychic/Tarret card reader on the coast line and I wanted to get the reading, so I went to the hut where the reading was offered.I was waiting for my turn for the reading.Next to me there was an young man with his mother.They appeared to be sad and out of luck.They were figuring out how to come up with the fee of 15$for the card reading.They were searching everywhere for few bucks.Finally they came up with 15 $.They appeared so desperate and wanted to spend the last penny with the hope that they may hear something bright/hopefull things about this youngman`s feature.
yep,Players are putting their last dime with the hope that their lives will improve and will have better life.Players appear to be following the saying ``Never give up the Hope``.:cool:
 
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jay helfert said:
I have a concern about all the qualifiers the IPT is planning prior to the next tournament in July. I intend to address my concerns with Deno in a PM this week.
With a rumored 25 more qualifiers for the 50 open spots at 1K per player, that is a lot of sheckels being paid into the IPT with little going out, other than a chance to play in only ONE tournament.
Something about this equation doesn't work so well for me. And maybe that's just me. I laid out 2K plus expenses already for a player to play in one qualifier and helped a second player with expenses. I'm not so sure I want to continue my sponsorship of players in this ensuing round of qualifiers.
Right now this is beginning to look like the Qualifier Tour and not the IPT.
Click to expand...
I also find that having 25 qualifiers for 50 spots is ridiculous. Not only is it unfair financially to the people aspiring to qualify (for a single tournament), but it will be a logistical nightmare trying to schedule and staff 25 qualifiiers in a 3-month span.

An improvement would be to have only 10 qualifiers, awarding 5 spots for each qualifier. The final two on the winners side should earn a spot, as well as the final two on the losers side (so for the weert qualifier as an example, Alcaide, Takami, Peach, and Schmidt would have qualified).

As for the fifth spot, it can be a wild card...such as the player with the highest consecutive racks run in the tournament, or most 8 balls made on the break. If there was a tie, then there would be a sudden-death one rack match. Something like that to create a bit more excitement in the qualifiers.

But 25 qualifiers for only 50 spots is just ludicrous.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
Pardon me for not really keeping up with all of this, but are these 25 qualifiers going to be taking place soon? I thought the IPT tour is supposed to start soon, and they already had 150. I didn't bother to count, so please fill me in on what's going on.
Click to expand...

I thought the IPT tour is supposed to start soon,
Click to expand...
:D :D :D

The carrot has been dangled and its getting bigger and bigger.

Pyramid scheme? Who knows.:rolleyes:

Gabber
 
I can't imagine they'll run 25 qualifying events. The logistics would be extrememely difficult, potentially expensive and they may be lucky to get 20 players at most of the qualifiers.

Also, I think so many events running every few days would begin to bore the followers.

Another idea is to run 6 events, top 8 get through. The 2 remaining spots could be fought out between those who finished 9-12 in the qualifiers, who hadn't managed to qualify.

Just an idea, but seems improbable the qualifiers would be run in the same way the tour card qualifiers were.

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing a round robin format to reduce the fields to 32 players, sorted by ranking from round robin performances. With 8 places up for grabs at each qualifier and 1k entry, I'd imagine they'd get 80 to 100 entries for each.

For cuetecetc, these qualifiers are for the 50 Open places in the North American $2 million event July 22nd in Las Vegas.
 
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On the IPT site, under the first event in July it says:

Players: 200 - (150 Tour Members, 50 Qualifiers)

I imagine 'qualifiers' isn't the right term here - more like 'qualified players'. I'd bet that they'll have some mini-tournaments the few days leading up, for a smaller fee, to fill these fifty spots - and THOSE folks then turn around and pay $1k to enter the main event.

Much like they did at the five tour card qualifiers - the people playing in those didn't just walk up and say "Here's my two grand - sign me up!" - they played in small pre-qualifiers the days before. If I recall correctly, the days leading up to the card qualifier in Marietta, they were having little pre-qualifier tournaments (I'm not sure how many folks in each) for (I believe) $30 to get in. Folks winning these got a spot in the qualifier, assuming they had the $2k entry fee. And I think folks could play in as many of these pre-qualifers as they wanted 'til they a) qualified or b) went broke.

I'm not saying that's how it is - if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me. I'm just going by my observations in Marietta, in the days before the event, and trying to use logic. :D

Now as far as the money-in vs money-out goes... aside from that KOTH event, and expenses to run the qualifiers (including B&R bounties), it seems like they've done nothing but take money in. Once the July event happens, and they *do* pay out what they're claiming they're going to pay out, I imagine that'll help with a lot of folks' doubts - assuming that things happen the way they claim they will. We'll see. Me, I like to hold onto a reasonably healthy amount of skepticism 'til I'm sure about something. :D
 
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ScottW said:
I'm not saying that's how it is - if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me. I'm just going by my observations in Marietta, in the days before the event, and trying to use logic. :D
Click to expand...

I think you're right about what's going to happen relating to the 50 qualifying players in Vegas.

ScottW said:
Now as far as the money-in vs money-out goes... aside from that KOTH event, and expenses to run the qualifiers (including B&R bounties), it seems like they've done nothing but take money in....:D
Click to expand...

On this point, though, I think the IPT has expended far more OUT than they have collected, IMHO.

I'm not sure about the KOTH in Vegas between Sigel and Jones, but the KOTH in Orlando, if you saw the set-up, there were some who stated that the event cost in the 3- to $4-million range. You had to see it to believe it. :p

At the players' meeting, there was a FREE buffet for the players, and then there was that GREEN ROOM with all of the amenities a professional sports player would desire. It was mind-boggling, and the players ate it up like candy. :D

The qualifiers, though, did pay out some monies at the challenge table, 8-on-the-breaks, and 6-pack runs.

JAM
 
Remembering ..

from official IPT emails received from Deno, I believe it was said the qualifiers would take place in many locations, including foreign countries. I believe he maentioned something that the IPT was considering giving tour cards to more players in each qualifier, and I believe, he mentioned down to 6 places.

With this type of format, the qualifiers seem doable before July, but the orignianl 25 qualifiers do not seem doable before July.

So, as it seems, their format will change somewhat more towards what
some of you have recommended.
 
Jay, I understand your concerns. What this is looking like to me is the IPT as Kevin laid it out back in August of last year. There have been some tweaks and modifications but it pretty much follows the formula that Kevin has already stated he wants to follow. The qualifiers have proven that there are plenty of players who want to participate.

Last place in the IPT Open in July gets $2000. When have you ever been involved in a tournament that paid last place? First place is $350,000. Now I know you like to gamble. I can confidently say that you have at times risked FAR more for a chance at FAR less. Let's just say you spent $10,000 to get a bonafide champion into the IPT's two open events and he finished middle of the pack. You would then share in somewhere in the neighborhood of $25,000.

All in all you would be shooting your 10 dimes at a share of 5 million in prize money. Never before have you or anyone else in the modern history of this game been able to do this.

So it follows that things are going to be run differently. Why would the IPT want to award prize money to the participants of the qualifiers? The qualifier is only a stepping stone to the real prize. The chance to become fairly wealthy playing pool.

You are right. Right now it's the qualification tour. I disagree though about no scheckels being paid out. The bonus money for running six packs, the free entries into future qualifiers, the bonus money paid out to IPT players are all monies that have been spread to IPT players and hopefuls.

Anyway, I ramble. I can understand your concern as you are one of the promoters that has literally seen it all with schemes to "make pool huge". I can see how having Kevin Trudea at the helm is especially alarming. But that is one of life's ironies. The huster community has to put it's faith in a person who is constantly called one of America's biggest conmen.

John
 
TheOne said:
I have been banging this drum for sometime, without question ALL the players feel this way, most fans probably agree, and a few IPT players also agree. I exchanged PM's with Deno a couple of weeks ago and he agreed to answer a couple of questions so I sent him an email. I haven't received a reply yet but no doubt he's been very busy with weert and the other qualifiers - I hope he replies this week.

These qualifiers have been exciting, they've done a great job with the website, and we have our first 10 IPT players that have earned their cards.

However this does not mean the qualifiers can't be improved, I hope the IPT can lower the entry and hold fewer qualifiers with more spots per event. This will save time, be fairer in the players and their backers, probably bring in the same amount of cash and take much less time.

I hope these changes are made for the the benifits of all.

Cheers
Click to expand...

I agree on all counts wholeheartedly.
 
JAM said:
If there was ever an award to go out to one of pool's strongest supporters, Jay Helfert, your name should go to the top of the list, no question about it. Before I "met" you on AzBilliards, your good name has been mentioned by many a player and fan of the sport. You make things happen, and your actions do speak much louder than your words.

About the qualifiers, I don't know enough about the upcoming qualifiers, other than the entry fee is, in fact, $1,000 for non-IPT members. The recent IPT qualifiers' top prize was a tour card.

The upcoming qualifiers for the 25 spots are still in the making with no date certain. I hope that those who do venture out to attend these events are given the opportunity to make some dough at the qualifiers, such as the challenge games with Sigel and other IPT members, 8-on-the-breaks, running a 6-pack, et cetera.

Truth be told, Jay, the expenses we will incur to attend the first event will exceed anything I have ever encountered on the tournament trail, to include payouts for many first-place wins. I know it will be very difficult financially for most, unless they are born with a silver spoon in their mouth. At this juncture, I don't know how I'm going to get past April 15th with Uncle Sam, much less the Venetian in July.

I sincerely hope that you are rewarded for everything that you have contributed to date. You are truly one of the good guys! :)

JAM
Click to expand...

Thanks Jam. I appreciate the kind words. You see I have this problem.
I LOVE POOL! Like Fats, I think it is the greatest game man has ever created.

Thank you for your part in bringing one of the most exciting players back into the fold. And I hope you are both rewarded handsomely. Maybe this time around, Keith will find a way to hang onto that 200G's when they hand him the check.

For my money there is no one better with big, big money on the line. Keith always had icewater in his veins. I like him over anybody shooting a tough shot off the end rail for all the cheese.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
Pardon me for not really keeping up with all of this, but are these 25 qualifiers going to be taking place soon? I thought the IPT tour is supposed to start soon, and they already had 150. I didn't bother to count, so please fill me in on what's going on.
Click to expand...

Stay tuned to the IPT website. You'll soon find out.
 
Your solution

jsp said:
I also find that having 25 qualifiers for 50 spots is ridiculous. Not only is it unfair financially to the people aspiring to qualify (for a single tournament), but it will be a logistical nightmare trying to schedule and staff 25 qualifiiers in a 3-month span.

An improvement would be to have only 10 qualifiers, awarding 5 spots for each qualifier. The final two on the winners side should earn a spot, as well as the final two on the losers side (so for the weert qualifier as an example, Alcaide, Takami, Peach, and Schmidt would have qualified).

As for the fifth spot, it can be a wild card...such as the player with the highest consecutive racks run in the tournament, or most 8 balls made on the break. If there was a tie, then there would be a sudden-death one rack match. Something like that to create a bit more excitement in the qualifiers.

But 25 qualifiers for only 50 spots is just ludicrous.
Click to expand...

Another good recommendation. This makes more sense than holding another 25 Qualifiers for two spots each.
 
Snapshot9 said:
from official IPT emails received from Deno, I believe it was said the qualifiers would take place in many locations, including foreign countries. I believe he maentioned something that the IPT was considering giving tour cards to more players in each qualifier, and I believe, he mentioned down to 6 places.

With this type of format, the qualifiers seem doable before July, but the orignianl 25 qualifiers do not seem doable before July.

So, as it seems, their format will change somewhat more towards what
some of you have recommended.
Click to expand...


This seems like the most reasonable approach to me, 25 qualifiers between now and July would be a nightmare to organize and schedule. I would suspect we will hear an official announcement from the IPT sometime in the near future.
 
onepocketchump said:
Jay, I understand your concerns. What this is looking like to me is the IPT as Kevin laid it out back in August of last year. There have been some tweaks and modifications but it pretty much follows the formula that Kevin has already stated he wants to follow. The qualifiers have proven that there are plenty of players who want to participate.

Last place in the IPT Open in July gets $2000. When have you ever been involved in a tournament that paid last place? First place is $350,000. Now I know you like to gamble. I can confidently say that you have at times risked FAR more for a chance at FAR less. Let's just say you spent $10,000 to get a bonafide champion into the IPT's two open events and he finished middle of the pack. You would then share in somewhere in the neighborhood of $25,000.

All in all you would be shooting your 10 dimes at a share of 5 million in prize money. Never before have you or anyone else in the modern history of this game been able to do this.

So it follows that things are going to be run differently. Why would the IPT want to award prize money to the participants of the qualifiers? The qualifier is only a stepping stone to the real prize. The chance to become fairly wealthy playing pool.

You are right. Right now it's the qualification tour. I disagree though about no scheckels being paid out. The bonus money for running six packs, the free entries into future qualifiers, the bonus money paid out to IPT players are all monies that have been spread to IPT players and hopefuls.

Anyway, I ramble. I can understand your concern as you are one of the promoters that has literally seen it all with schemes to "make pool huge". I can see how having Kevin Trudea at the helm is especially alarming. But that is one of life's ironies. The huster community has to put it's faith in a person who is constantly called one of America's biggest conmen.

John
Click to expand...


Yes, I have gambled quite a bit higher at times. Typically when I stake someone, I am putting up all the money for a shot at a 50-50 split after expenses.
What's different is that in those cases, I know exactly what we're shooting at (i.e. the U.S Open and 40 dimes) and when the game is on. Here I have some lingering uncertainty about what the game plan is.

I met KT and spoke with him at Hard Times. Doesn't really bother me that he has had problems in the past. Who in the pool community hasn't? He actually fits right in with this crowd.
My concern is just regarding the structure of the Qualifying process and the potential drain on resources to participate. My pockets are probably a little deeper than most folks, but it's a stretch to continue to stake anyone with so little chance for success.

The field I saw at Hard Times looked like a condensed version of the U.S. Open with all the weak players thrown out. And to succeed you had to make the final two. That to me is not the best way to gamble my money.
 
ScottW said:
On the IPT site, under the first event in July it says:

Players: 200 - (150 Tour Members, 50 Qualifiers)

I imagine 'qualifiers' isn't the right term here - more like 'qualified players'. I'd bet that they'll have some mini-tournaments the few days leading up, for a smaller fee, to fill these fifty spots - and THOSE folks then turn around and pay $1k to enter the main event.

Much like they did at the five tour card qualifiers - the people playing in those didn't just walk up and say "Here's my two grand - sign me up!" - they played in small pre-qualifiers the days before. If I recall correctly, the days leading up to the card qualifier in Marietta, they were having little pre-qualifier tournaments (I'm not sure how many folks in each) for (I believe) $30 to get in. Folks winning these got a spot in the qualifier, assuming they had the $2k entry fee. And I think folks could play in as many of these pre-qualifers as they wanted 'til they a) qualified or b) went broke.

I'm not saying that's how it is - if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me. I'm just going by my observations in Marietta, in the days before the event, and trying to use logic. :D

Now as far as the money-in vs money-out goes... aside from that KOTH event, and expenses to run the qualifiers (including B&R bounties), it seems like they've done nothing but take money in. Once the July event happens, and they *do* pay out what they're claiming they're going to pay out, I imagine that'll help with a lot of folks' doubts - assuming that things happen the way they claim they will. We'll see. Me, I like to hold onto a reasonably healthy amount of skepticism 'til I'm sure about something. :D
Click to expand...

I am not sure about the prequalifiers happening, since they were done independent of the IPT. We tried to put one on ourselves. The only condition for approval was to have the money for the entries for the actual Q prepaid to the IPT.

The original plan was to hold Q's around the world. Whether KT deviates from that plan or not remains to be seen. He may be tired of going to every Q and want to get the show on the road. About 3 months of qualifying remain. It would make more sense to take more players from a few qualifiers. And I can't speculate as to what the entry fee would be for those qualifiers.

Once they are in as entrants, they will then pay the $1000 entry fee. Personally, I would like to see the top 8 out of the money at each qualifier already held, be able to participate. They have proven their dedication and commitment to the tour. The other spots could be wild cards. But I guess that wouldn't bring in much new money, so what do I know? I also think it is KT's way of drumming up more money for the members as profit sharing.

About the money in-out, I have absolute conviction that it will happen as stated. The only contingency I can see happening that would prevent the events to go as planned is if something were to happen to KT. I hope he has provided for that eventuality. :o
 
jay helfert said:
Yes, I have gambled quite a bit higher at times. Typically when I stake someone, I am putting up all the money for a shot at a 50-50 split after expenses.
What's different is that in those cases, I know exactly what we're shooting at (i.e. the U.S Open and 40 dimes) and when the game is on. Here I have some lingering uncertainty about what the game plan is.

I met KT and spoke with him at Hard Times. Doesn't really bother me that he has had problems in the past. Who in the pool community hasn't? He actually fits right in with this crowd.
My concern is just regarding the structure of the Qualifying process and the potential drain on resources to participate. My pockets are probably a little deeper than most folks, but it's a stretch to continue to stake anyone with so little chance for success.

The field I saw at Hard Times looked like a condensed version of the U.S. Open with all the weak players thrown out. And to succeed you had to make the final two. That to me is not the best way to gamble my money.
Click to expand...

Well, you have definitely been involved with and seen more high rolling gambling and more pro-level tournaments than most other people in this country, including me, so I won't doubt your judgement as to what you feel is the better odds.

All I will say is that odds are that most people would shoot a thousand at a chance to get 40 to 700 times their money back. You can just go to any casino and watch people throwing away far more than that attempting to win far less and with lesser odds than the IPT offers. I am sure there are some very happy backers of WPT players. You know poker and you know that an awful lot of poker players get staked to play, much like pool players. And like pool players, these guys go broke a lot and need backers. Would you care to guess what percentage of the players in the poker World Championship are staked into that tournament? Surely, getting through 5000 players in a round robin format in poker is pretty long odds as well but not nearly as long as a world beater getting through a field of 100 world beaters and 100 very strong shortstops on the physical skill of pool.

Like Kevin said, he doesn't care who he pays out to on the IPT. If it's not a player you have a piece of then it will be one that someone else does. Here you also know what you're shooting at - it's all printed nearly a year in advance. So far the man has paid out in two events more than most tours do in a dozen years. And this without demanding money from the participants. You can put down $500 to shoot at 40 dimes against 200 world beaters or you can bet 10 dimes to shoot at millions. I say it's a better bet than the US Open or Vegas can or will ever offer you.

John

John
 
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