Does Pool Need a Dominant Player to get World Wide Attention Like Other Sports?

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
One thing many people respect about golf is they have allowed condition changes and higher tech equipment , but not at the expense of the integrity of the game.....the ball is the same size, the hole is the same size, and they use a "Stimpmeter" to measure the speed of the greens ...and they have taken strides to make the golf courses even more challenging because of the lighter shafts, better designed balls and other high tech material that improves distance. It's proven that their fans want to see the power shots and that holds true in tennis and baseball too.

What many Top Players say is make conditions tougher and give someone a chance to dominate, so this can truly be called the "Master Game".....it MUST to be MORE difficult/challenging for a pro....statistically there are a lot more great players today, but VERY FEW new ones, 70% of them were top players 15 years ago, but the thing is the tables with the fast, slick cloth, super-fast rails, high tech jump/break cues and heavier cue balls DO NOT require as much knowledge, stroke or power, and that's what separates CHAMPION level play more than anything... popular opinion indicates {demands for athletic type performance} is the most fun to watch as well....the power/shotmaking game is exciting to watch and it's virtually been eliminated ...with the faster playing conditions it's taken MANY shots out of the game and made running balls much easier....which isn't just an equalizer, but has taken away some of the most difficult and visually appealing parts of the game ... on the average pool shots are hit with 30% less force than they were back when pool was so popular in the 70s, 80s & 90s. This, in comparison it would be like golfers hitting 240 yard drives which would be far LESS exciting for the fans to watch.

To make this point as clear as possible imagine the following scenario as an EXTREME example:

Few regular athletes can compete with Michael Jordan at basketball or Tiger Woods at golf, however, if they have to play on an unusually fast substance (solid ice) MANY people would have a chance to win against them....speeding up playing surfaces is not only one of the greatest equalizers, but it has, in effect made the game incredibly boring ... Anyone that saw that great match ups of the 70's, 80's and 90's will agree that there was just a different sound and force to the shots and atmosphere because of the conditions....which was more conducive to exciting matches and more exciting, dominant, and powerful players.
 

Donny Lutz

Ferrule Cat
Silver Member
Easier conditions now in sports?

One thing many people respect about golf is they have allowed condition changes and higher tech equipment , but not at the expense of the integrity of the game.....the ball is the same size, the hole is the same size, and they use a "Stimpmeter" to measure the speed of the greens ...and they have taken strides to make the golf courses even more challenging because of the lighter shafts, better designed balls and other high tech material that improves distance. It's proven that their fans want to see the power shots and that holds true in tennis and baseball too.

What many Top Players say is make conditions tougher and give someone a chance to dominate, so this can truly be called the "Master Game".....it MUST to be MORE difficult/challenging for a pro....statistically there are a lot more great players today, but VERY FEW new ones, 70% of them were top players 15 years ago, but the thing is the tables with the fast, slick cloth, super-fast rails, high tech jump/break cues and heavier cue balls DO NOT require as much knowledge, stroke or power, and that's what separates CHAMPION level play more than anything... popular opinion indicates {demands for athletic type performance} is the most fun to watch as well....the power/shotmaking game is exciting to watch and it's virtually been eliminated ...with the faster playing conditions it's taken MANY shots out of the game and made running balls much easier....which isn't just an equalizer, but has taken away some of the most difficult and visually appealing parts of the game ... on the average pool shots are hit with 30% less force than they were back when pool was so popular in the 70s, 80s & 90s. This, in comparison it would be like golfers hitting 240 yard drives which would be far LESS exciting for the fans to watch.

To make this point as clear as possible imagine the following scenario as an EXTREME example:

Few regular athletes can compete with Michael Jordan at basketball or Tiger Woods at golf, however, if they have to play on an unusually fast substance (solid ice) MANY people would have a chance to win against them....speeding up playing surfaces is not only one of the greatest equalizers, but it has, in effect made the game incredibly boring ... Anyone that saw that great match ups of the 70's, 80's and 90's will agree that there was just a different sound and force to the shots and atmosphere because of the conditions....which was more conducive to exciting matches and more exciting, dominant, and powerful players.

I think you over-simplify.

As long as I can remember (1955) there have always been both good and bad conditions available to pool players. Same for bowlers.

If pool players hit the balls harder in the old days, why was one of Mosconi's most famous quotes, "There are two speeds to hit the cue ball, soft and softer".

There are two things very clear about the evolution of sports.
(1) As a sport gains popularity, and population increases, the number of high level players increases as well.
(2) Equipment technology, training techniques and the availability of instruction has improved dramatically in recent years.

No one could compete with Michael Jordan? He may have been the best ever, but did he ALWAYS win? Truth is there are many more super BB players now than when MJ played.
Tiger Woods has more competition than he wants. The level of play has increased dramatically since his peak years. Scores have dropped not only because of (sometimes) easier conditions, but because knowledge of the game is ever-increasing.

I understand your points, and don't disagree in general, but personally I find world class pool matches every bit as exciting as they were years ago.
I can't help but think of games like "balkline", which would be considered extremely boring to fans today, but drew unbelievable crowds to watch, a century ago.

Integrity of the game? When basketball was invented, the average players height was six feet. Today pro players average 6'9". Virtually every team has players who can stand flat-footed and dunk the ball. Have we raised the rim to maintain "integrity"? No, we're stubborn on that one. Was basketball more exciting years ago? Obviously a matter of opinion.

Sports evolve. If you don't like how they're evolving, become involved in the process (which is what you're doing by raising the issue here). Not all participants or fans like the way sports are changing, but that's nature.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
 

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pool has had dominant players in the past. I mean, check out Earl Strickland's streak of domination, and then there's King James Rempe, Jean Balukas, Nick Varner, Allen Hopkins, et cetera. :smile:

Mainstream America doesn't understand enough about pool to recognize dominance. Therein lies the problem.:frown:

The combination of dominance *and* personality is what is needed in pool. ;)

Today's emotionless robotic players running rack after rack is not exciting, even to me, and I'm a pool enthusiast. :cool:

The lack of interest of non-industry sponsors, industry sponsors, and today's current pool organizational entities is another problem. Why would a non-industry member invest or sponsor anything pool-related if pool's own industry members, such as the BCA, don't seem to invest or have a strong interest in professional pool? This speaks volumes, as far as I'm concerned.

When Willie and Fats had their feud, pool was showcased on ESPN. Who do we have today?

I recently read an article about a pool room shortening their hours and eliminating their regular Sunday tournament in South Dakota:

Discontinuing what has been a popular event for more than a quarter of a century wasn't an easy decision for Ken Geary. Yet he admitted fewer pool players were participating...

..."Pool players also golf or they play poker," he said. "Both their time and their money are divided in other directions."

Ken Geary said setting up shop in 1986 -- the same year Martin Scorsese released "The Color of Money," a sequel to 1961's "The Hustler" that featured Tom Cruise and Oscar winner Paul Newman as "Fast" Eddie Felson -- was especially fortunate.

"Pool was hot at the time," he said. "Everybody wanted to get in on the game."

Since then, the sport -- at least in pop culture -- has cooled considerably.

"Whenever you see a pool table in a movie, it's usually right before a bar fight," Ken Geary observed. "TV? ESPN will televise a pool tournament when they know it will run opposite the Super Bowl or the Olympics."


Source: Sunday Night 9-Ball Tradition Comes to an End. [Retrieved 8 September 2012]

Without industry support, Willie Mosconi could rise from the grave and nobody would give a damn.
 

thintowin

thin2win
Silver Member
i guess i'm stupid or something, but i believe the fast cloth and active rails have made the game tougher. it's like playing on wet ice and the cream rises to the top in this environment. I do believe that jump cues should be banned and if you want to try a jump shot then you would have to use your regular cue. i believe the jump cue has almost eliminated the masse shots that were so prevalent in years past. i also disagree with your premise of why the game was so popular in years past. i believe the decline in good paying jobs has severely injured the pool world. there is no longer "the food chain" necessary for pool to thrive. more people with more disposable income created an environment for players to excel and strive to become great, whatever the definition is for great, in the gambling world or the tounment world. I also think pool needs both of these "worlds" to return to the glory days of old. i don't believe it will ever happen, but one can hope. my nickels worth anyway.
 

Mitchxout

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think integrity in golf was ruined by the new equipment, especially the ball. The ball flies straighter and farther than ever because of marketing pressure. The new balls are harder to "work" left and right and are resistant to wind. The ball changed the game more than anything. Nicklaus was the John Daly of his day and averaged about 265 yards. That's Tigers 3-iron.
 

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
I don't think pool CAN have a dominant player. It would take someone that NEVER misses a shot to be that person. I've seen many matches in the past few years where even the LOSER missed no more than one or two (makeable) balls. Only perfection can beat that. The table layout itself can be a deterrant. Then there is the "lull", the time in the life of the current best player where things cool down, and winning just seems to be out of their grasp. Look at Mika a few years ago, Daryl Peach before that. They were the hottest players in the world, but it only lasted for a year or two. I don't think we will ever see the likes of Mosconi, Lassiter, or Greenleaf again. Heck, I'm not so sure we'll ever see a player dominate the way Strickland, Archer, and Sigel did more recently. There's just wa-a-ay too much good talent for this to ever happen anymore.

Just my opinions.

Maniac (opinions don't mean squat)
 

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
The game of pool in the USA is a hard sell today at best. Leagues are doing well because it’s just a night out for most and most don’t want to or have time to practice to get better. Also it’s cheap and only has short travel from one room/bar to the next.

On the pro and regional tours there is travel, high entry fees, + a lot of other things out pocket, and you must put a lot of time in to practice.

I don’t believe anything you could do to get a big pop of new fans to watch the top pros play. The game is just too boring to watch for most and there are so many other things to watch or play today than there was in the 1960’s back.

A national tour is very hard to start in the US just because or the large area of the country. IMO no matter what format you come up with, w/o major companies getting involved, it’s just too much to ask the players to layout for the average ROI. Johnnyt
 
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peteypooldude

I see Edges
Silver Member
IMO. It's not the cloth or even equipment changes. I believe the problem is to much competition. Back in the hay day we did not have Internet and so many other things to consume our time. There are so many reality shows and cable itself that occupies people's mind and also compete against pool related programs. Pool is a little fish in a big pond. Also thank u CJ for spending time with us here on AZ
 

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
IMO. It's not the cloth or even equipment changes. I believe the problem is to much competition. Back in the hay day we did not have Internet and so many other things to consume our time. There are so many reality shows and cable itself that occupies people's mind and also compete against pool related programs. Pool is a little fish in a big pond. Also thank u CJ for spending time with us here on AZ

True dat. Currently, there are four different reality shows on TruTV about towing and repo: Operation Repo, Lizard Lick Towing, South Beach Towing, and I forget the other name.

Then there's the latest reality show on pawn stores. You have Pawn Stars, Cajun Pawn Stars, Combat Pawn, and Hard Core Pawn. Sheesh!

Seems like America is more interested in repossession and pawn shops than pool. Both have to do with financial situations, in some form or another. :D

BTW, I'm a fan of Lizard Lick Towing and Operation Repo. I can't believe it, but I am. I also love Hard Core Pawn and Pawn Stars. There, I said it! :eek:
 

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I mean, Lizard Lick Towing, the stars are making presentations at schools and getting paid appearances. Meanwhile, though some of the TV reality show is real, a lot of it is staged. You can tell, almost like wrestling is today on TV.

The thing about Lizard Lick Towing that is refreshing is that they never utter a curse word. If Ron Shirley, the star, wants to say "oh, sh*t," he says "oh, snap." :p

Check out their website. They're in the rural part of North Carolina (Wendell), yet they have a Beverly Hills agent to promote them: Bookings, Sponsors, and Endorsements.

Here's Ron Shirley at a book signing at Border's Books! I mean, if these eggs can do it, why can't pool get off the ground?
 

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1on1pooltournys

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Interesting...

The problem is EVERYBODY has a desire to be as good as they possibly can, and engineers and designers understand this concept so, they consistently come up with new equipment to help the weaker player get better results. This is true in virtually all competitive games.

I've seen it a thousand times in pool. A weaker player is constantly trying new cues, low deflection shafts, kamui tips, jump cues, break cues, gloves, aiming devices, break raks, and other things. They think because SVB uses a cuetec this is the "secret" to pool!! You get the idea.

Same goes for golf. This is just the nature of the business aspect. One of the big problems in pool is we have a lot of these companies marketing to amateur players, but none of them put up a penny for Professional pool. This in itself is a tragedy.

Name one pro tournament the APA has sponsored? How about the VNEA? What about all of the cue companies? Cue makers? Sure we have seen Predator's name on some stuff, but do you think they could do more?

I could go on and on but this is enough for now. I think CJ brings up some good points, but at this stage in the game changing the "conditions" of pool isn't going to matter. Not yet at least in my opinion.
 

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The problem is EVERYBODY has a desire to be as good as they possibly can, and engineers and designers understand this concept so, they consistently come up with new equipment to help the weaker player get better results. This is true in virtually all competitive games.

I've seen it a thousand times in pool. A weaker player is constantly trying new cues, low deflection shafts, kamui tips, jump cues, break cues, gloves, aiming devices, break raks, and other things. They think because SVB uses a cuetec this is the "secret" to pool!! You get the idea.

Same goes for golf. This is just the nature of the business aspect. One of the big problems in pool is we have a lot of these companies marketing to amateur players, but none of them put up a penny for Professional pool. This in itself is a tragedy.

Name one pro tournament the APA has sponsored? How about the VNEA? What about all of the cue companies? Cue makers? Sure we have seen Predator's name on some stuff, but do you think they could do more?

I could go on and on but this is enough for now. I think CJ brings up some good points, but at this stage in the game changing the "conditions" of pool isn't going to matter. Not yet at least in my opinion.

Good point! I hadn't thought about that before, but I think you're right-on with this line of thinking.
 

dkleather

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pool had Efren and Earl at their best and couldn't generate any interest. Pool needs MONEY to get exposure and unfortunately that's not looking likely to appear any time soon.

Kids with an eye to a future play golf or tennis or whatever. Do you think the likes of Appleton, Melling would be playing pool if they could have made a living at snooker?
 

badntx

Registered
I happen to agree with CJ ...And of course in rotation games the elimination of two foul to one foul makes it more of a safety game ...Takes a lot of the skill factor away from the best player ...
 

ronscuba

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
True dat. Currently, there are four different reality shows on TruTV about towing and repo: Operation Repo, Lizard Lick Towing, South Beach Towing, and I forget the other name.

Then there's the latest reality show on pawn stores. You have Pawn Stars, Cajun Pawn Stars, Combat Pawn, and Hard Core Pawn. Sheesh!

Seems like America is more interested in repossession and pawn shops than pool. Both have to do with financial situations, in some form or another. :D

BTW, I'm a fan of Lizard Lick Towing and Operation Repo. I can't believe it, but I am. I also love Hard Core Pawn and Pawn Stars. There, I said it! :eek:

If someone had the desire, production skill and connections, a pool reality show could be a hit.

With all the pretty young female players, you have the sexy angle. With the gambling, you have the money aspect. With the hustling part and money collection, you can have violence if you want it. With the league play, you have the regular guy connection.

A guy and girl road team traveling city to city hustling.
 

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
You better have a good powerful stroke to play 9-ball on an old 10' table with old backed cloth, old rubber, and the old balls. Add to that no A/C on a humid day or night and you see who can go 5 or 6 rails and get pinpoint position for the next shot. Todays tables only need the weight of the cue and a poke to get there. There is a huge difference. Johnnyt
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Pool is too easy. It does not allow the best player to win.

Think about how many critical shots occur in a match that could separate a champion from a second tier player. If the break is working and the balls set up well, a player might be on the table for ten minutes before facing a testing shot -- one that shows the real level of the player's skill.

Compare that to tennis. About every five seconds each player has to do something few in the audience could ever accomplish. This goes on for about two hours. A few can dominate at tennis not because someone is vastly superior to the rest, but because they are somewhat better and that is tested many, many times during a match.

Larger tables and smaller pockets? A different game?

There is the old story of a spectator at a Mosconi exhibition saying, "He's nothing special. All his shots were easy. I could have made them."
 
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CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
I don't think pool CAN have a dominant player. It would take someone that NEVER misses a shot to be that person. I've seen many matches in the past few years where even the LOSER missed no more than one or two (makeable) balls. Only perfection can beat that. The table layout itself can be a deterrant. Then there is the "lull", the time in the life of the current best player where things cool down, and winning just seems to be out of their grasp. Look at Mika a few years ago, Daryl Peach before that. They were the hottest players in the world, but it only lasted for a year or two. I don't think we will ever see the likes of Mosconi, Lassiter, or Greenleaf again. Heck, I'm not so sure we'll ever see a player dominate the way Strickland, Archer, and Sigel did more recently. There's just wa-a-ay too much good talent for this to ever happen anymore.

Just my opinions.

Maniac (opinions don't mean squat)

Nick Varner won 11 Professional Tournaments one year as well....and I agree about "wa-a-at too much good talent" and that's what my main point is...."don't we have to make the equipment tougher so that one of these "good talents" can have a chance to dominate?" ... the game has actually gotten easier these days.
 

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nick Varner won 11 Professional Tournaments one year as well....and I agree about "wa-a-at too much good talent" and that's what my main point is...."don't we have to make the equipment tougher so that one of these "good talents" can have a chance to dominate?" ... the game has actually gotten easier these days.

C.J., look at the tournament roster of the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship in, say, the '90s and look at the names you see on that roster today. Quite a different demographic these days! :p
 
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