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weegee3
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Low deflection shafts, fact ot fiction? - 12-20-2012, 11:13 AM

I have heard that low deflection shafts are more hype than fact.
I'm not talking about cueball deflection but shaft deflection.
Can a multilayerd shaft with an 11 mm tip have less deflection than a fine grained maple shaft with a 13 mm tip?
Also, if the shaft deflects, what is the consequence of this deflection on the cueball? More squirt? What are the benifits of a so called low deflection shaft that would want me to spend $200 plus for it?
I've heard pros and cons from some excellent cue builders and still don't have an answer hat settles the question for me.
Thoughts?
  
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JoeyInCali
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12-20-2012, 11:29 AM

First , pls define shaft deflection .


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whammo57
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12-20-2012, 11:43 AM

When you hit the cue ball off center, left or right, the shaft of the cue bends to the side and the cue ball is deflected to the other side. They are sometimes referred to as shaft deflection and cue ball squirt (as I understand it)

A thin shaft with less tip mass tends to deflect more than a thick heavy shaft.

When the shaft deflects more, the cue ball deflects less. When the shaft deflects less, the cue ball tends to deflect more.

Does either one make you play better and make more balls go in the pocket???

Definitely not...it is up to you to learn how to play with either.

Play with both and see which one you like ... probably the one that allows you to make the most shots.

Kim


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12-20-2012, 12:11 PM

Joey.
You ask that I define shaft deflection. Exactly my point. I simply don't know what it is or what it means.
I assume that if I were playing with a pencil wide shaft it would have some negative effect on my shot but exactly what I dunno.
If I have a 13mm tip on my fine grained maple shaft, am I missing out on the magic of a multilayerd ball boinker. What benefits do $200+ shafts bring to those who possess them. I can't see it but......maybe it's the same thing that the player gets from a $27.00 piece of chalk that is being offered these days.
Let me ask you this; you a a noted cue builder; what do you use; straight grained maple or plywood composite material.
Does a close straight grained piece of maple have less or more shaft deflection that multi layered.
Even the most casual observer would conclude that I am confused,
I'm looking to you for help,
  
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12-20-2012, 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by whammo57 View Post
When you hit the cue ball off center, left or right, the shaft of the cue bends to the side and the cue ball is deflected to the other side. They are sometimes referred to as shaft deflection and cue ball squirt (as I understand it)

A thin shaft with less tip mass tends to deflect more than a thick heavy shaft.

When the shaft deflects more, the cue ball deflects less. When the shaft deflects less, the cue ball tends to deflect more.

Does either one make you play better and make more balls go in the pocket???

Definitely not...it is up to you to learn how to play with either.

Play with both and see which one you like ... probably the one that allows you to make the most shots.

Kim
Exactly what Kim says above. This is all related to "the hit" and "the hit" is totally an individual preference. You have to try one( or more) out and decide for yourself if it makes a difference. Not all "low deflection" shafts are the same. No one else but you can decide what is best for you.

My 2 cents,

Gary


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12-20-2012, 12:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by weegee3 View Post
Joey.
You ask that I define shaft deflection. Exactly my point. I simply don't know what it is or what it means.
I assume that if I were playing with a pencil wide shaft it would have some negative effect on my shot but exactly what I dunno.
If I have a 13mm tip on my fine grained maple shaft, am I missing out on the magic of a multilayerd ball boinker. What benefits do $200+ shafts bring to those who possess them. I can't see it but......maybe it's the same thing that the player gets from a $27.00 piece of chalk that is being offered these days.
Let me ask you this; you a a noted cue builder; what do you use; straight grained maple or plywood composite material.
Does a close straight grained piece of maple have less or more shaft deflection that multi layered.
Even the most casual observer would conclude that I am confused,
I'm looking to you for help,
I use straight grain hard maple. The harder and denser, the better for m
Multi-layered/plywood shafts do not really have less cueball squirt. It's the hole inside the shaft's end that make them low-squirt shafts ( less end-mass=less cueball squirt ).


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12-20-2012, 12:48 PM

I believe what the OP would be trying to say is that on LD shafts the first part of the shaft deflects off the line of stroke when the cueball is hit off center thereby causing less swerve of the cueball relative to the line of stroke. And he is confused as to why they are called LD shafts when it is the shaft that is deflecting more. If they were called High Deflection Shafts there would be just as much confusion of terms although the term would accurately describe the shaft.


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shaft deflection
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shaft deflection - 12-20-2012, 12:49 PM

I think I'm learning that a low deflection shaft actually deflects the shaft more than a standard deflection shaft thereby diminishing the squirt on the cue ball.
Am I on the right track?
If so, then would it make sense to call it a high deflection shaft or would that further confuse things.
Not to get too anal about this issue, but would a low (high?) deflection shaft with a ten mm tip apply more squirt to the cueball than the same shaft with more mass such as a 13mm tip?
Just so you know, I can't run three balls in a row and am aware that the shaft ain't my problem. I'm just curious about how things work and what is b.s and what is not.
When I figure this out I'm going to inquire about why some tip maker is marketing a piece of chalk for $27.00. You gotta love it.
  
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12-20-2012, 01:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by weegee3 View Post
I think I'm learning that a low deflection shaft actually deflects the shaft more than a standard deflection shaft thereby diminishing the squirt on the cue ball.
Am I on the right track?
If so, then would it make sense to call it a high deflection shaft or would that further confuse things.
Not to get too anal about this issue, but would a low (high?) deflection shaft with a ten mm tip apply more squirt to the cueball than the same shaft with more mass such as a 13mm tip?
Just so you know, I can't run three balls in a row and am aware that the shaft ain't my problem. I'm just curious about how things work and what is b.s and what is not.
When I figure this out I'm going to inquire about why some tip maker is marketing a piece of chalk for $27.00. You gotta love it.
forget about what the shaft does, all that anyone cares about is what the ball does. You make points/wins from balls. With low deflection shafts, the cue ball gets less squirt, and you end up needing to correct point of aim somewhat less to account for the English. Note that the whole deflection/squirt issue is more based around cuts + English. On a reasonably straight shot, or even a cut without English an low deflection shaft has almost no difference.

I'm going to say that a smaller diameter tip of the same material has less deflection/squirt than a larger tip. Don't ask why though as I don't have the physics answer. But a very noticeable difference with a 10.75mm plain maple shaft and a 13mm plain maple shaft.

At the same time, the 10.75mm plain shaft is much touchier to use than a 13mm LD shaft is. Easier to miscue, etc.
  
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whammo57
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12-20-2012, 01:56 PM

There has been some discussion on what the cue ball does when it is hit off center.

Let's say you hit the cue ball with right english. Two things happen.

1. The cue ball is pushed to the left by the cue shaft. How much it is pushed to the left depends on whether the shaft is thin and light (LD) or heavy, thick and stiff.

2. As the cue ball travels it is spinning counter clockwise (looking down from the top). This spin makes the cue ball curve back to the right.

Every shaft plays a little differently and the shooter must know and practice with his/her equipment to become accurate by taking into consideration these various things going on with the shot.

Kim


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12-20-2012, 02:00 PM

I asked Willie Mosconi about low deflection shafts & he said "I don't know what their talking about. I know where to hit the cueball...& then I make the ball." He also said "I make all of the easy balls & pretty soon there aren't any left."
As for me, I don't like these LD shafts. A waist of money. MY OPINION...JER
  
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12-20-2012, 02:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by weegee3 View Post
I have heard that low deflection shafts are more hype than fact.
I'm not talking about cueball deflection but shaft deflection.
Can a multilayerd shaft with an 11 mm tip have less deflection than a fine grained maple shaft with a 13 mm tip?
Also, if the shaft deflects, what is the consequence of this deflection on the cueball? More squirt? What are the benifits of a so called low deflection shaft that would want me to spend $200 plus for it?
I've heard pros and cons from some excellent cue builders and still don't have an answer hat settles the question for me.
Thoughts?
You would do well to spend a few hours browsing this site- http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html


Custom made veneer used by some of the best cuemakers in the business for years! CueVeneer.com
  
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LD Shafts
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LD Shafts - 12-20-2012, 02:41 PM

I have played with a few "low deflection" shafts in the past few years. I currently play with an Intimidator I-2 by McDermott, and love it, just ordered another one for one of my older cues, I love the way they hit. Before the I-2 shaft, I was using an OB-2, and I liked the way IT hit very well. Before the OB-2, I used a Predator 314-2 shaft and shot very well with it also. I also have a Lucasi Hybrid Low Deflection shaft that I like the hit of also. Before those, I had a Helmstetter VIP series cue, 2 shafts with ivory ferrules, and it was really weird, one shaft had a very tight grain structure, and one had a medium grain, not as tight, not as many rings. The shaft with the very tight, high-grain count shot WAY better than the other one. Did it shoot better than any of the newer "LD" shafts? I'm not sure, that shaft broke on me (due to MY stupidity) and I still miss the way it hit. I believe that when it all boils down, to some degree, a LD shaft will shoot slightly better than a normal shaft, but the major difference will be in whether it FEELS good to you or not. It took me fully a week solid of playing to get the feel of the OB-2 shaft, and it took me 3 solid weeks to get the feel of the 314-2. Now, the I-2 shaft only took me 2 GAMES to fall in love with, not sure if that is because the shaft is any better or whether it just suits the way I want a "hit" to feel. I am a pretty good shot, but there are guys out there that can beat me with a whittled broom handle, so I THINK that it all boils down to whether YOU think that a $200 shaft is worth buying or not. I like mine, and have tried a few, I suggest that you go to a larger local billiard store and try a few of their different demonstrator models and see what you feel is "right"

Jim N

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12-20-2012, 02:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKHEARTCUES View Post
I asked Willie Mosconi about low deflection shafts & he said "I don't know what their talking about. I know where to hit the cueball...& then I make the ball." He also said "I make all of the easy balls & pretty soon there aren't any left."
As for me, I don't like these LD shafts. A waist of money. MY OPINION...JER
My thoughts exactly..............

Kim


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12-20-2012, 03:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by whammo57 View Post
There has been some discussion on what the cue ball does when it is hit off center.

Let's say you hit the cue ball with right english. Two things happen.

1. The cue ball is pushed to the left by the cue shaft. How much it is pushed to the left depends on whether the shaft is thin and light (LD) or heavy, thick and stiff.

2. As the cue ball travels it is spinning counter clockwise (looking down from the top). This spin makes the cue ball curve back to the right.

Every shaft plays a little differently and the shooter must know and practice with his/her equipment to become accurate by taking into consideration these various things going on with the shot.

Kim
Well said Kim. I would like to add a third if I may.

After practicing KimRules 1 and 2 they need to practice it until it becomes a natural motion. Trying to over think a shot can be a players worst enemy. Get natural and be natural.


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