Layered Tips Review (Results)

Doctorlove

Old Schooler
Silver Member
First of all, thank you all ladies and gentlemen for the patience. It took us a little more than expected to get all the results ready.

That said, I have to state again that we were trying to get the “feel” and personal impression on each tip and that our rates are very subjective. If our intention had been to evaluate the quality of the tips involved in our test, we’ll have had the easy task to give an excellent rating to all the products, because they are all top of the line, made with expertise and high quality materials. I have to say that the best tip is, without a doubt, the one that you feel best with and we encourage everybody to try as much as possible to discover the one that gives you that special touch you like.

But let’s go to the tests. First, let me start with the “Facts on Tips” that we have come up with after talking with many expert players and doing our own un-scientific tests:


Facts on TIPS:

• A cue tip can be harder on softer based on three factors: The pressure at which the leather layers are pressed together, the density and penetration of the adhesive in the leather and, finally, the leather hardness itself.

• The pressure that the tip suffers when being used during the game, stroke after stroke, can cause it to be noticeably compacted and hardened over its lifespan.

• The natural texture of the leather affects the way the tip is going to hold the chalk and it does not depend on the hardness of the tip.

• The “Blind Group” (the players who didn’t know which tip they were using) gave better rates to the custom made tips than the group who could see and choose which tip to use at any given moment.


Now let’s go with some general advice.


Advice on TIPS:

• If you want a soft tip not to get “hardened” too fast, avoid hitting to strong with it or using it to break.

• If your style of play favors hard hitting or a combination of medium-hard hitting, you should avoid soft tips, as they will harden fast and, as a result you’ll have a less durable, less reliable, “hard” tip that if you had installed a harder one from the beginning.


Now we can go on with the test results.


Results:

Moori: Very thin layers of leather, extremely well attached; the glue is almost unnoticeable on the magnifying glass. The touch with the hard ones is excellent from the very first hit while with the medium ones it requires some play until the tip hits at its prime. The play is very consistent during all its lifespan. Holds chalk well. Are available in various widths.

Surprising Fact: Noticeable different between the old ones and the newer ones, the first having a better quality leather.

Kamui: Thin layers of leather, with a very solid construction and attachment; the glue is noticeable on the magnifying glass but no bubbles or aberration at all. The quality of the leather is second to none. The play is excellent from the first hit with all the range of hardness and it keeps its consistency during the entire tip’s lifespan. Are available in various widths.

Surprising Fact: Although most of the Kamui tips hold the chalk perfectly, for an excellent grip, we’ve found that the Hard Kamui Black model needs to be scraped quite often to get a good result.

UltraSkin: The layers are very thin and made of top quality leather, but it’s the perfect combination of the right glue and excellent construction what makes them look like a one solid piece, even under the magnifying glass. Need to be used for some time before it gets its best results. All the range of hardness holds chalk very well. Available just in 14mm width.

Surprising Fact: Most players noticed an improvement on the hit during the tip’s lifespan, with a performance that seems to peak when the tip is half the original length.

CM360: The layers are thin and a little bit irregular, but the construction is good. Some unevenness noticeable on the magnifying glass. The hit improves after some racks are played and then it’s consistent during the entire tip’s lifespan. Holds chalk well in all the range of hardness. Available just in 14mm width.

Surprising Fact: The hard ones seem to play much better than the medium and soft ones.

Sniper: The layers are quite thick and irregular, with unevenness noticeable on the naked eye. The hit is solid from the beginning and holds the chalk really well Available in various widths.

Surprising Fact: This was the only brand we had problems with during our tests, with two tips delaminating. May be our batch but the truth is that the results were not good with this one.


2013 TEST WINNERS:

Best of the Best: OLD BATCH MOORI TIPS

Best Custom Made: ULTRASKIN TIPS by TOM HAY

Best Commercially Available Tips: KAMUI BLACK

Best “Bang for your Buck”: ULTRASKIN TIPS


Thank you all for you time; I know it was a big post (and I'm still planning to expand on the results and write about them here). If you want to know more about how the test was performed, you can go to the original post:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=300235

Every comment will be appreciated and every advice on how to continue the test will be wellcommed.
 
No Everest comparison?

Unfortunately, due to time and budget limitations, we had to choose just a few representative layered tips to review and many interesting ones like Tiger Everest, Wizard or Talisman were not tested this time (although we'll like to do it in the near future).

Thank you for your comment.

Best regards,

Iago
 
I have used Moori tips and have been completely satisfied. I have read numerous times that the quality is not what it use to be. In your poll you said the "Old Batch" was the best.

My question is, how do the Moori tips that one would buy today compare? Does anyone have any info on whether the company is doing anything to bring their tips back to what they use to be. I am hesitant to buy the tip they make today because they sound like they are inferior.

I am almost at the point where I need to replace my tip. Based on what I'm hearing, if I can't get an old batch Moori, I think I will go with another type tip, probably Kamui.
 
I like that you added the info from your up close look at the layers. I would think that would be valuable info for those that like to take a layered tip and trim it down after install. Uneven layers would probably effect playability. I know it was layered tips, but it would've been interesting to see a Triangle thrown in the mix. I still think they're hard to beat for the money.
 
I am satisfied. You can't get the old Morri's and the Ultraskins are as commercialy available as Kamui.

A year ago no one ever heard of the Skins so I guess I have come a long way.

Thanks for the results, wish I had submitted my new Oinkers. :smile:
 
I am satisfied. You can't get the old Morri's and the Ultraskins are as commercialy available as Kamui.

A year ago no one ever heard of the Skins so I guess I have come a long way.

Thanks for the results, wish I had submitted my new Oinkers. :smile:



Not to mention all of the knock off moori's and kamui's, that are floating around out there...

I love buying direct...I know what I'm getting...and the quality is outstanding!!!

Thanks Tom, for a quality tip at a great price...and my customers are loving them, too...!!!
 
No surprise here.
I already new the UltraSkins, or Tom's Tips, as I call them, were superior.
In addition, the Everest tip has got the Moori beat in all the test parameters you mentioned. :smile:
 
Thank you all for your comments. Please let me try to answer all them:

"dougster26": In our test both the Kamui and the UltraSkin tips did slightly better than the Moori tips. The Moori Medium that we obtained the best results with were from 2006 and (at least this batch) was a little darker and more even than the ones you can buy that were produced recently.

"StrokeofLuck": You are right, Triangle tips are an all time favourite of many players and we are for sure testing them in the future. I find that its "steadiness" is one of its best features; they play the same as they did years ago and are widely available, so every player knows how they are going to play.

"TomHay": Let me thank you again Tom for your cooperation. Your tips did great and some of us voted it to be the #1 in our rank. Also, let me say that if your "new oinkers" are even better than the ones we've got, I can't wait to try one on my cue.

"jwe711": Very good point there. There are a lot of fakes, particularly on Ebay and I would also always recommend buying direct when possible. If “buying direct” allows you to deal with a true gentleman like Mr. Tom Hay, you can consider yourself lucky.

“Tramp Steamer”: Thank you for your recommendation. We’ll make sure to include Everest tips on the next test.
 
Good job doing the comparisons. I am just happy I didn't notice my tip on the list. Everytime I see reviews and comparisons without a mention of them I feel like I am getting away with something. I'm glad these other tips are getting good reviews and feedback so hopefully the ones I am using will stay just like they are for as long as possible. I wish they would just sponsor me with 50 tips so I could have my supply and promote them.
 
No surprise here.
I already new the UltraSkins, or Tom's Tips, as I call them, were superior.
In addition, the Everest tip has got the Moori beat in all the test parameters you mentioned. :smile:

I will only comment subjectively on Everest tips.

I had one on my OB(stock tip) and hated it.

A customer had one on his Jacoby and hated it.

I've now seen THREE come apart.

I also concur with the delaminating Snipers. When shaping(I use a Porper tailstock mounted radius turner that presents zero problems with other tips) the top layer LOVES to come off.. There is also a near unanimous consensus that the color sucks...
 
I will only comment subjectively on Everest tips.

I had one on my OB(stock tip) and hated it.

A customer had one on his Jacoby and hated it.

I've now seen THREE come apart.

I also concur with the delaminating Snipers. When shaping(I use a Porper tailstock mounted radius turner that presents zero problems with other tips) the top layer LOVES to come off.. There is also a near unanimous consensus that the color sucks...

Back in the day, when I was commercial tip replacer, I too had customers who either loved, or hated, the Everest. Typically it was the better players who liked, and used, the tip.
I never had a Everest come apart, either during installation, or through play.
When Snipers first came out I bought a box of twelve to try them out. Half the box turned to cotton balls as I was shaping them. The rest were sent back.
There have been several threads on this subject, through the years, and Everest tips have always ranked high, especially over the later Mooris. :smile:
 
Well, I'm glad to know that we were not the only ones having problems with the Sniper tips (we ended up worried about having bought a defective lot).

As for the Everest tips, it seems clear, based on the different oppinions exposed here, that they need to be included in the second part of our test.

Thank you all gentlemen for your comments.

Iago
 
Well, I'm glad to know that we were not the only ones having problems with the Sniper tips (we ended up worried about having bought a defective lot).

As for the Everest tips, it seems clear, based on the different oppinions exposed here, that they need to be included in the second part of our test.

Thank you all gentlemen for your comments.

Iago

No, Sir. Thank you.
You have done a fine service to this community, and we appreciate it.
I hope I haven't harped too much on the Everest. Thanks, again. :smile:
 
Well, I wasn't going to say anything, but as long as some here are telling about their experiences with Sniper and Everest, I might as well go ahead and tell about my experience with Ultra Skin.

A while back, I bought a batch of 30. Out of that 30, I have had five delaminate; three during installation, and two that were returned by customers, later. I still have a few left, but I have stopped telling customers what a great tip they are. And of these few left, I will only install them for customers who ask for them, specifically, and then will include a warning that they might fail, so the customers will be on their own after that.

Roger
 
I stick with the old classic

I love the consistency of a well pressed Elk Master. Fact is, a well pressed Le Pro, or Triangle are my top 3 favorite tips out there... Best thing about it all is that, for me they out perform the others and for the price of 1 popular layered tip I can buy a whole box of either 3..
 
Thanks for the review on the CM360 tips. I too also found that many of the players that like hard hitting tips love the 30NM and 35NM.

I would love to see some images of these tips installed on the shafts so that we can see the shaft quality. Ideally, I think a true test would be for a player to play with each tip on the same shaft for a period of time so that they can really experience the differences with each tip with the same shaft.

I have done this test with my SW shafts and found that my CM360 tips give me more power and make the shaft much more livelier compares to other layered tips that I tried. Curvature or Shape of the tip is also a key factor that will affect how a tip may play so ideally this factor should also be kept consistent (eg. Dime vs Nickle shape).

When installing tips for someone, I always ask the player if the prefer soft hitting vs hard hitting since that will give me an idea on the type of tips that I would recommend to them. Don't get me wrong, both style of hits have their advantages and my playing style just like hard hitting. I have Kamui Soft on my bender...kept the tip high and it produce a very nice soft hitting style that I've sure a lot of soft hitter would love.

I just find that the cushioning effect on soft hitting style tips make me feel like I'm losing some of my energy and would require more stroke from me to get where I want. I'm sure if you have a stroke like Mika....you will want to tone that stroke down a bit :).

Again..thanks for the feedbacks...looking forward to the other test results.

Duc.



CM360: The layers are thin and a little bit irregular, but the construction is good. Some unevenness noticeable on the magnifying glass. The hit improves after some racks are played and then it’s consistent during the entire tip’s lifespan. Holds chalk well in all the range of hardness. Available just in 14mm width.

Surprising Fact: The hard ones seem to play much better than the medium and soft ones.
 
Thanks for the review on the CM360 tips. I too also found that many of the players that like hard hitting tips love the 30NM and 35NM.

I would love to see some images of these tips installed on the shafts so that we can see the shaft quality. Ideally, I think a true test would be for a player to play with each tip on the same shaft for a period of time so that they can really experience the differences with each tip with the same shaft.

I have done this test with my SW shafts and found that my CM360 tips give me more power and make the shaft much more livelier compares to other layered tips that I tried. Curvature or Shape of the tip is also a key factor that will affect how a tip may play so ideally this factor should also be kept consistent (eg. Dime vs Nickle shape).

When installing tips for someone, I always ask the player if the prefer soft hitting vs hard hitting since that will give me an idea on the type of tips that I would recommend to them. Don't get me wrong, both style of hits have their advantages and my playing style just like hard hitting. I have Kamui Soft on my bender...kept the tip high and it produce a very nice soft hitting style that I've sure a lot of soft hitter would love.

I just find that the cushioning effect on soft hitting style tips make me feel like I'm losing some of my energy and would require more stroke from me to get where I want. I'm sure if you have a stroke like Mika....you will want to tone that stroke down a bit :).

Again..thanks for the feedbacks...looking forward to the other test results.

Duc.

Hi Duc,

If the CM tips are your baby I can actually give you quantitative numbers on hardness and COR compared to other tips on the market... I have the technology now i just need to find the time LOL

In all seriousness tho.. I have a tester in R&D than can measure a tip prior to installation and after it's installation so you can benchmark it and check for changes as it wears.... I intend to quantitatively benchmark the most common tips on the market... back to the matter of finding the time...

I am currently on a quest to create single layer tips with characteristics that can be tailored and matched to each individual's preference... pretty much required me to develop a new way to test the tips since a durometer measurement was only part of the story.....

Chris
 
Well, I wasn't going to say anything, but as long as some here are telling about their experiences with Sniper and Everest, I might as well go ahead and tell about my experience with Ultra Skin.

A while back, I bought a batch of 30. Out of that 30, I have had five delaminate; three during installation, and two that were returned by customers, later. I still have a few left, but I have stopped telling customers what a great tip they are. And of these few left, I will only install them for customers who ask for them, specifically, and then will include a warning that they might fail, so the customers will be on their own after that.

Roger

Roger,

I give a 100% money back warranty. If you had problems where others have not, wish you had let me know.

I found your paypal, your money has been 100% refunded.

Thanks
 
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Mark of a great Company

Rodger, thanks for giving us your input.

Tom, sending Rodger his refund is a mark of a great Man.

I am going to buy some of your tips.
I went to your website but only saw Ultraskins and not Oinkers.
What is the difference?

I will send you a email with my contact info.

Take care, Barney
 
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