Touch of Center

Classic post.
As a new TOI disciple, I really enjoyed this!

Keep choking as often as you can TSW

It is hard to argue with a world champion...I actually use many of CJs techniques...I also have his original DVD that I think is one of the best all around instructionals available...

As with all pros though I can't seem to relate to every technique out there....TOI is one of them.

I am a believer in TOSBH....touch of solid bridge hand.....If you set up center cb and then maintain a solid bridge hand if there is any slight waiver in your stroke it will simply become BHE....the key is the solid bridge hand.



Posted from Azbilliards.com App for Android

Wouldn't this be more accurately labeled TOF - Touch of Focus?

BRKNRUN said:

It is hard to argue with a world champion...I actually use many of CJs techniques...I also have his original DVD that I think is one of the best all around instructionals available...

As with all pros though I can't seem to relate to every technique out there....TOI is one of them.

I am a believer in TOSBH....touch of solid bridge hand.....If you set up center cb and then maintain a solid bridge hand if there is any slight waiver in your stroke it will simply become BHE....the key is the solid bridge hand.



Posted from Azbilliards.com App for Android

Click to expand...

I recently had the only pool lesson in my life so far. The instructor pointed out several minor things to me, such as inconsistent alignment, rushing the final stroke, etc. The one thing that surprised me was her observation that my bridge hand was not solid enough.

After I got back home I started working on everything, but firming up my bridge hand seems to be a bigger element than I was giving credit to. My whole stroke feels more solid now, and the contact with the CB sounds fuller, even on softer shots. I've read about the importance of this before, but kind of ignored it.

BTW TOI IMHO is just a way to trick the mind into concentrating on center ball. I mentioned this back when CJ first mentioned the technique and was told by another poster that this was just "a Jedi mind trick". Well, maybe some folks need a Jedi mind trick in order to shoot straighter. Whatever works. TOC? Sounds reasonable to me.

Sloppy Pockets said:

I recently had the only pool lesson in my life so far. The instructor pointed out several minor things to me, such as inconsistent alignment, rushing the final stroke, etc. The one thing that surprised me was her observation that my bridge hand was not solid enough.

After I got back home I started working on everything, but firming up my bridge hand seems to be a bigger element than I was giving credit to. My whole stroke feels more solid now, and the contact with the CB sounds fuller, even on softer shots. I've read about the importance of this before, but kind of ignored it.

BTW TOI IMHO is just a way to trick the mind into concentrating on center ball. I mentioned this back when CJ first mentioned the technique and was told by another poster that this was just "a Jedi mind trick". Well, maybe some folks need a Jedi mind trick in order to shoot straighter. Whatever works. TOC? Sounds reasonable to me.

Click to expand...

Mr. Pockets,

I can guarentee you that TOI is not improved concentration & not a mind trick. I have been shooting off center with english for 46 years since I was 13. When doing that and very often right at the miscue point, one has to concentrate & be precise.

So, when I tried TOI it was totally different for me in that my focus had always been on the amount of spin in relation to the deflection with which I simply allowed to be dealt with by my subconscious.

With TOI one is focused on causing a certain amount of deflection. While that does take a bit of concentration, it has nothing to do with center CB except to make sure you don't hit center. The system allows one to hit center & get away with it but that is not the focus.

Naturally you are entitled to your opinion. However I have often 'aimed' the OB to mis the pocket & then deflect the CB so it adds cut on the OB & pockets it into the full hit side or even the center of the pocket. IMHO that is not an increase of concentration to hit center CB because I can quarantee you I am not hitting the center of the CB.

Regards & Best Wishes to You,

It's quite OK to not get it...

I have tried to show several players how to use TOI over the years and usually they only want to continue to do it their way.. I have had a few actually "get" it and while they may not use it every shot once they "got" it they had a tool they could employ that they didn't own before.....

You can continue to treat everything as a nail if all you ever have in your toolbox is a hammer as that is your most likely course of action anyway....

Chris

eliminate one of these factors so you KNOW FOR SURE which way it's deflecting

BRKNRUN said:

It is hard to argue with a world champion...I actually use many of CJs techniques...I also have his original DVD that I think is one of the best all around instructionals available...

As with all pros though I can't seem to relate to every technique out there....TOI is one of them.

I am a believer in TOSBH....touch of solid bridge hand.....If you set up center cb and then maintain a solid bridge hand if there is any slight waiver in your stroke it will simply become BHE....the key is the solid bridge hand.



Posted from Azbilliards.com App for Android

Click to expand...

Yes, whatever "Touch" someone decides on, it's very important to have a very solid bridge hand. I feel like I'm pressing my finger into the slate when I'm playing other champion players. I have a few different ways I play, and it varies slightly with the level of player, and when I HAVE to run out every time I focus on hitting a specific part of the cue ball, acceleratioin, and being VERY SOLID in my hands. Whatever you do, however you choose to play, one thing is for sure - YOU MUST CONTROL THE CUE.

I've explained in a variety of ways why I favor one side of center and one of them is to simply take one side of the cue ball "out of play". When you hit right of center the cue ball veers left - when you hit the cue ball on the left side of center it veers right.

Doesn't it make sense to eliminate one of these factors so you KNOW FOR SURE which way it's deflecting. Think about it, is it better for your cue ball to potentially go two ways or just one??? 'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ Wiley said:

Yes, whatever "Touch" someone decides on, it's very important to have a very solid bridge hand. I feel like I'm pressing my finger into the slate when I'm playing other champion players. I have a few different ways I play, and it varies slightly with the level of player, and when I HAVE to run out every time I focus on hitting a specific part of the cue ball, acceleratioin, and being VERY SOLID in my hands. Whatever you do, however you choose to play, one thing is for sure - YOU MUST CONTROL THE CUE.

I've explained in a variety of ways why I favor one side of center and one of them is to simply take one side of the cue ball "out of play". When you hit right of center the cue ball veers left - when you hit the cue ball on the left side of center it veers right.

Doesn't it make sense to eliminate one of these factors so you KNOW FOR SURE which way it's deflecting. Think about it, is it better for your cue ball to potentially go two ways or just one??? 'The Game is the Teacher'

Click to expand...

Even if someone would follow the advice to use all the time TOI- even then he would have to hit the cueball all the time at the same point to get repeatable results ( a hair next to center as you call it), and if he/she s not able to do this, and furthermore not able to control his speed really good-what then? If he get s more "outside" the cb deflects more, if he/she would go less outside , the cb would deflect less. So where is the key here to consistancy?

TOI is for sure a piece of knowledge you need to learn- but all negative comments about trying to hit center axis also fits for the *toi theory*

just my opinion- and for sure not meant to start the next cyber-war.

lg
Ingo

TSW said:

So today I was getting whupped by a friend of mine. After missing a lot of shots in the first couple of sets, I recalled the "touch of inside" technique. As I understand it, TOI suggests putting just a tiny fraction of inside English on some (most?) shots to help increase pocketing accuracy. My understanding is that the suggested English is tiny, a nudge or 1/32nd of a tip or something of that nature.

Using that amount of English requires that you concentrate very precisely on your tip position. So I tried applying that level of focus to the tip position, but instead of cueing with a touch of inside English, I cued for center ball (or whatever English I needed for the shot). And my pocketing percentage went up. All of a sudden I was running out. I was also pocketing the ball in the part of the pocket I wanted to and planning precisely the kind of spin I wanted on the cue ball, so my position play improved. My confidence went up too. I'm no US Open champion, and I still missed some shots, but this certainly helped.

I call this approach "touch of center," or TOC. It requires focusing on your tip position down to about 1/32nd of a tip, and cueing wherever you otherwise would. Try it; you may like it.

Click to expand...

Sounds like backhand English to me??? works great for some shots , not so well on long shots. {Unless you know a few more "secrets".}

TSW said:

So today I was getting whupped by a friend of mine. After missing a lot of shots in the first couple of sets, I recalled the "touch of inside" technique. As I understand it, TOI suggests putting just a tiny fraction of inside English on some (most?) shots to help increase pocketing accuracy. My understanding is that the suggested English is tiny, a nudge or 1/32nd of a tip or something of that nature.

Using that amount of English requires that you concentrate very precisely on your tip position. So I tried applying that level of focus to the tip position, but instead of cueing with a touch of inside English, I cued for center ball (or whatever English I needed for the shot). And my pocketing percentage went up. All of a sudden I was running out. I was also pocketing the ball in the part of the pocket I wanted to and planning precisely the kind of spin I wanted on the cue ball, so my position play improved. My confidence went up too. I'm no US Open champion, and I still missed some shots, but this certainly helped.

I call this approach "touch of center," or TOC. It requires focusing on your tip position down to about 1/32nd of a tip, and cueing wherever you otherwise would. Try it; you may like it.

Click to expand...

The ability to hit the cueball in the center (without sidespin) is an essential skill in all cuesports. When is your DVD coming out?

Ah, so everyone has been using toi for years, then. Gotcha.

Sent from my LG-P500 using Tapatalk

ThePoliteSniper said:

The ability to hit the cueball in the center (without sidespin) is an essential skill in all cuesports. When is your DVD coming out?

Click to expand...

If I needed to buy something to tell me something I already know, I'd buy it too.

There's no end to this.

Sent from my LG-P500 using Tapatalk

Pool's "ball pocketing," is just a miniature version of this same golf principal.

Ratta said:

Even if someone would follow the advice to use all the time TOI- even then he would have to hit the cueball all the time at the same point to get repeatable results ( a hair next to center as you call it), and if he/she s not able to do this, and furthermore not able to control his speed really good-what then? If he get s more "outside" the cb deflects more, if he/she would go less outside , the cb would deflect less. So where is the key here to consistancy?

TOI is for sure a piece of knowledge you need to learn- but all negative comments about trying to hit center axis also fits for the *toi theory*

just my opinion- and for sure not meant to start the next cyber-war.

lg
Ingo

Click to expand...

The difference if taking one side "out of play," if you try to hit center you can't do this.

It's like in golf, Jack Nicklaus said he took the left side of the golf course "out of play," it's the same principal. Golfers rarely try to hit a straight shot, they are always "working" the ball in one direction. Pool's "ball pocketing," is just a miniature version of this same golf principal.

We're teaching a lot of people to do it now and the results speak for themselves. One of my players just ran 58 playing straight pool, and a month ago his high run was 19. Doing this increases the "pocket zone," therefore increasing confidence and the firmer you hit the TOI Shot, the more accurate it is (to a certain point of course). I'm getting letters every day from different players that are enjoying the similar outcomes. The TOI is the "real deal," and is exactly what I used to do to gain an advantage in professional competition. I'll start posting more of the testimonials at www.cjwiley.com

I expected this kind of *non-saying* posting.
Ok- if you say, you try to keep it simple: If you not able to hit the point *you are aiming for* , this specific point with a hair of inside- what if you hit it with 3 hairs of inside? hm?

But hey CJ- i m out here- i usualy told myself to get me out of this discussion- so it was my bad, to just make a posting. What is definitley a fact is, that you have to hit a PRESICE point on the cueball- no matter if it would be the center, the outside or the inside. And if you are not able to his this point- the cueball will show a different reaction/path.

have great time,
lg
INgo

Finally!
A Pro that plays awesome, AND knows the mechanics of why! and can make a nice golf analogy!

My take on TOI is this.....most of us learn the game of pool using a "touch" of helping spin, or outside spin if you like to avoid collision induced throw and IMO skids.....among other benefits. Using this on almost every shot it becomes "normal" and our brain sees it as such. When TOI is learned it seems like we are using inside, BUT in reality it is just much closer to using center then we are used to.

Also, with the recent advent of LD shafts INSIDE spin is now MUCH easier to use.....reason?.....see above.....we learn using outside and inside is voodoo only to get us out of bad situations, or by Efren!

Personally....I rarely attempt to use center ball, IMO skids, and unwanted throw are not worth the risk of trying center ball perfection.


have fun,

G.

CJ Wiley said:

The difference if taking one side "out of play," if you try to hit center you can't do this.

It's like in golf, Jack Nicklaus said he took the left side of the golf course "out of play," it's the same principal. Golfers rarely try to hit a straight shot, they are always "working" the ball in one direction. Pool's "ball pocketing," is just a miniature version of this same golf principal.

We're teaching a lot of people to do it now and the results speak for themselves. One of my players just ran 58 playing straight pool, and a month ago his high run was 19. Doing this increases the "pocket zone," therefore increasing confidence and the firmer you hit the TOI Shot, the more accurate it is (to a certain point of course). I'm getting letters every day from different players that are enjoying the similar outcomes. The TOI is the "real deal," and is exactly what I used to do to gain an advantage in professional competition. I'll start posting more of the testimonials at www.cjwiley.com

Click to expand...

BRKNRUN said:

It is hard to argue with a world champion...I actually use many of CJs techniques...I also have his original DVD that I think is one of the best all around instructionals available...

As with all pros though I can't seem to relate to every technique out there....TOI is one of them.

I am a believer in TOSBH....touch of solid bridge hand.....If you set up center cb and then maintain a solid bridge hand if there is any slight waiver in your stroke it will simply become BHE....the key is the solid bridge hand.



Posted from Azbilliards.com App for Android

Click to expand...

The fact is CJ is a very talented player he could play well using a number of systems. What I have found is that systems raise your concentration level and you awareness of solid fundamentals this may be the biggest factor in all of them

1

ENGLISH! said:

Mr. Pockets,

I can guarentee you that TOI is not improved concentration & not a mind trick. I have been shooting off center with english for 46 years since I was 13. When doing that and very often right at the miscue point, one has to concentrate & be precise.

So, when I tried TOI it was totally different for me in that my focus had always been on the amount of spin in relation to the deflection with which I simply allowed to be dealt with by my subconscious.

With TOI one is focused on causing a certain amount of deflection. While that does take a bit of concentration, it has nothing to do with center CB except to make sure you don't hit center. The system allows one to hit center & get away with it but that is not the focus.

Naturally you are entitled to your opinion. However I have often 'aimed' the OB to mis the pocket & then deflect the CB so it adds cut on the OB & pockets it into the full hit side or even the center of the pocket. IMHO that is not an increase of concentration to hit center CB because I can quarantee you I am not hitting the center of the CB.

Regards & Best Wishes to You,

Click to expand...

I just thought I'd bump this for all those that think or believe TOI is just a means to increase concentration on hitting the center of the CB &....

to say Hi to Donkey "PJ" Bruce. How you doing PJ? Sorry you got banned, but it is quieter & more enjoyable since you've been 'gone'.

Sarcasm: It's rather amazing to me that so many serious pool players just played with so little concentration before being introduced to TOI. In any case it is also so amazing that a little gimmick like TOI could do what years of effort & so much money spent on lessons could not, get inconsistant strokes to hit center cue ball. Amazing, simply amazing.

Regards,

Ratta said:

I expected this kind of *non-saying* posting.
Ok- if you say, you try to keep it simple: If you not able to hit the point *you are aiming for* , this specific point with a hair of inside- what if you hit it with 3 hairs of inside? hm?

But hey CJ- i m out here- i usualy told myself to get me out of this discussion- so it was my bad, to just make a posting. What is definitley a fact is, that you have to hit a PRESICE point on the cueball- no matter if it would be the center, the outside or the inside. And if you are not able to his this point- the cueball will show a different reaction/path.

have great time,
lg
INgo

Click to expand...

Then you still make the ball theoretically. You are aiming for the part of the pocket that gives you the most margin for error. If you hit it with center by accident it still goes, if you hit it further on the inside than intended, it still goes. If you are too far off the ball doesn't drop and you aimed correctly, your stroke is too flawed and you should work on that.

What CJ's TOI inside does by theory, is make you favor one side of the ball slightly, thus eliminating one set of possible errors.

Example:

When you cue on center axis, you could hit left, center, or right, because humans are unable to cue exactly where intended. This could cause you to miss because you cued on the left or right side of the ball. When you miss, unless you are extremely good at seeing exactly where the object ball went(at high speeds you won't), you won't know why you missed the shot.

With TOI, you are favoring the inside of the ball. So when you hit the ball, you will either hit Center, TOI, or inside. Theoretically all three of these hits will pocket the ball if you are using CJ's three part pocket system, if your stroke is good. You will also have a better idea why you missed a ball when you favor one side or the other.

I'm not sure why people have an issue understanding this and want to jump right in claiming "well if you can't hit center all the time, you can't hit TOI all the time and it is hence useless." Take a little time and give some logical consideration to the theory of what is being said.

I'm not a TOI advocate, but I understand the theory behind it, and it has some merit.