Mad about Soft Stun Throw!!!

MacGyver · May 4, 2006

Just wanted to vent a bit, but until reading the "45 degree cut angle" thread and watching Colin's "OE/IE Throw" video, I was a lot worse.

I'm a very logical player, and my only aiming system is that I picture the contact point and then aim for it(using instinct to move aim over just enough to make contact points line up).

I have been getting very good results with this, but I would still miss shots.

Perhaps this is because as I became better, I started to use pocket speed, and I also started using mostly centerball hits to try and get position naturally and move the ball as little as possible(choose natural routes).

I'd even try to use stun shots most of the time to squat the CB when needed, and as I took all these things into account I didnt realize that my potting % was going down, and I couldnt figure why!!!

After a while I realized that I needed to "overcut" some shots(soft stun) but never really realized why, and I thought it was only on extreme cuts, and also I never had a reason why this would help.... I also think this is why I missed so many side pocket shots, as I wasnt overcutting and playing it pocket speed caused the ball to hit the closest cushion and bounce the ball out.

Anyway, last night I started to apply a bit of draw/follow to my soft pocket speed shots and noticed an *amazing* increase in accuracy... everything started feeling great again and shots just kept dropping, even *extreme* cut angles that went the length of the table into the side.

My soft pocket speed stun shots had been killing my accuracy and I never knew why...

I think this bit of information, that soft stun causes the most throw is a vital piece of information that needs to get out to beginners right away!!!

I knew a bit about throw, but I didnt realize how often it came up and how it was magnified by soft stun!!! a bit of follow/draw and a bunch of shots I wasnt making before are now sure things!!!

Why didnt I hear about this sooner!?!?

I think this needs to be mentioned *anytime* that a ghostball/contact point aiming system comes up as you will obviously miss long soft stun shots if this is not take into account...I can't believe I went as long as I did thinking my aim was faulty when I just didnt realize how much soft stun affected it.

From now on anytime I explain contact point aiming to anyone I am definatly going to tell them about this(I didnt realize how much a factor it was until I slowed down my shot and started using mostly centerball/stun shots)

Anyway, thank you to Colin for the vid, and thanks to the rest for keeping the threads active, I can't believe how much longer I would have been in the dark and leaving hangers had I not figured out how much soft stun was harming my aim.

Thanks!

-macgyver
ps I switched over to dime tip as well and played immidiatly better with it... who keeps saying it will take months to get used to!!?

Colin Colenso · May 4, 2006

Cheers Macgyver,
Glad to see some of these discussions are helping to take your game up a notch.

I also hadn't been aware of the need to adjust so much for soft stun (and sometime very slow roll shots) until recently.

God knows how I dealt with it in the past. I think there was a subconscious prompt to swipe a touch of OE onto these soft stun shots on occaission.

I also remember back in my old playing days when I would soft stun most shots it, so memorized these angles, but I used to over cut a lot when playing with topspin and draw, so kind of adapted to line them up differently. It's kind of amazing how subconscious feel / intuitive judgement steps in with enough practice, and yet we consciously don't really know what's going on.

I'm a lot happier camper now that I have a better idea of what is going on. An effective strategy I know adapt is to practice a lot using medium speed natural roll, to drill those potting angles into my memory. Medium speed natural roll being an intermediate throw angle, and very close to the throw angles for harder top and draw shots as well and medium speed inside english shots with cut angles over 10 degrees and hard stun shots.

From this alignment, I can just make adjustments for soft stun ( either adjust to pot thinner or play a quater tip outside english) or for Outside English I can adjust the aim to undercut a little, or lengthen my bridge so that the increased squirt makes a thinker contact.

By trial and error these adjustments can be made pretty accurately. The advantage is that when you miss, the cause can be recognized straight away most times and the error corrected.

Gerry · May 5, 2006

Colin....is this info going thru your head while your playing?.....I agree with, and believe all your info to be true, but hopefully you can turn off the switch and just play when you need to?

I've worked for years to blank out my head when I play. Just the next shot, and what I'm trying to accomplish....kind of like meditation....Ooooom.....

Gerry

mikepage · May 5, 2006

MacGyver said:
[...]

I think this bit of information, that soft stun causes the most throw is a vital piece of information that needs to get out to beginners right away!!!

[...]
Why didnt I hear about this sooner!?!?

[...]

I think it's because it's a small minority of instructors, authors, and top players that know about it.

mike page
fargo

CaptainJR · May 5, 2006

mikepage said:
I think it's because it's a small minority of instructors, authors, and top players that know about it.

mike page
fargo

This is not true. Most experienced player know all about this kind of thing. In some cases consciously and other cases subconsciously. This little thing called throw is just one of the little nuances of pool.

There are a lot of things in pool you need to develop before you start using stun shoots and compensating for throw. Start telling a beginner about throw, 'right english throws left, left english throws right, outside english cuts the ball more, inside english cuts the ball less, the ball throws more on softer shots and on a bank shot throw not only changes the rail contact point but also changes the angle it comes of the rail and .......

Your only going to confuse a beginning player. Get a beginner to start using top and bottom and speed control before you start talking english and then throw.

mikepage · May 5, 2006

CaptainJR said:
This is not true. Most experienced player know all about this kind of thing. In some cases consciously and other cases subconsciously. This little thing called throw is just one of the little nuances of pool.

I think you're misinterpreting my comment Captain. The existence of throw is well known by all of these sorts. That you can throw a ball either by a cut angle or by putting spin on the cueball is well known. Even that throw is somewhat larger at slower speeds is well known .

But the subtlety he commented on is not well known.

CaptainJR said:
There are a lot of things in pool you need to develop before you start using stun shoots and compensating for throw. Start telling a beginner about throw, 'right english throws left, left english throws right, outside english cuts the ball more, inside english cuts the ball less, the ball throws more on softer shots and on a bank shot throw not only changes the rail contact point but also changes the angle it comes of the rail and .......

Your only going to confuse a beginning player. Get a beginner to start using top and bottom and speed control before you start talking english and then throw.

Well sure. What you introduce to a new player when is an important topic. But what Macgyver is talking about is another thing about throw (that you don't mention) that should get billing right up there with these other things you mention. But it doesn't. Why? Because people don't know about it.

I'm not saying that top players don't have a *functional* knowledge of it in the sense that their long, personal, natural selection process about how to hit certain shots doesn't include this. Rather I'm saying they're not aware of it in the sense that they're going to isolate the idea and teach it to someone else or verbalize it.

Instructors and popular authors frequently don't understand it because they're stuck on the gear ideas, and those ideas lead you astray here.

mike page
fargo

CaptainJR · May 5, 2006

mikepage said:
I think you're misinterpreting my comment Captain. The existence of throw is well known by all of these sorts. That you can throw a ball either by a cut angle or by putting spin on the cueball is well known. Even that throw is somewhat larger at slower speeds is well known .

But the subtlety he commented on is not well known.

Well sure. What you introduce to a new player when is an important topic. But what Macgyver is talking about is another thing about throw (that you don't mention) that should get billing right up there with these other things you mention. But it doesn't. Why? Because people don't know about it.

I'm not saying that top players don't have a *functional* knowledge of it in the sense that their long, personal, natural selection process about how to hit certain shots doesn't include this. Rather I'm saying they're not aware of it in the sense that they're going to isolate the idea and teach it to someone else or verbalize it.

Instructors and popular authors frequently don't understand it because they're stuck on the gear ideas, and those ideas lead you astray here.

mike page
fargo

I see where you are coming from now. If I'm getting your right, you are correct in saying that a lot of the best players play by feel. In aiming threads on here they talk about feel and this is what they are talking about. There is no aiming system that automatically adjusts for throw. This is something you have to feel. I don't think the good players could feel it that well if they were not aware of the subtleties. I'm a good player not a great player. I play mostly by feel and I'm very aware of the subtleties of throw and speed.

In the 9th paragraph of the original post MacGyver says about showing this to beginners. I don't think I would.

supergreenman · May 5, 2006

CaptainJR said:
I see where you are coming from now. If I'm getting your right, you are correct in saying that a lot of the best players play by feel. In aiming threads on here they talk about feel and this is what they are talking about. There is no aiming system that automatically adjusts for throw. This is something you have to feel. I don't think the good players could feel it that well if they were not aware of the subtleties. I'm a good player not a great player. I play mostly by feel and I'm very aware of the subtleties of throw and speed.

In the 9th paragraph of the original post MacGyver says about showing this to beginners. I don't think I would.

This is the same as using a pitching wedge inside 50 yards, putting, drawing or fading a ball, it's all done by feel. The only way to get that feel is experience, the same is true with pool, you can't throw someone on a table and expect them to automaticlly have the feel to adjust for throw.

supergreenman · May 5, 2006

I bet you can tell it's a really nice day today and my mind is less on work and pool than it is golf.

I think I'm going to duck out early today.

CaptainJR · May 5, 2006

supergreenman said:
I bet you can tell it's a really nice day today and my mind is less on work and pool than it is golf. I think I'm going to duck out early today.

Days like today I REALLY miss golfing.

Colin Colenso · May 5, 2006

Gerry said:
Colin....is this info going thru your head while your playing?.....I agree with, and believe all your info to be true, but hopefully you can turn off the switch and just play when you need to?

I've worked for years to blank out my head when I play. Just the next shot, and what I'm trying to accomplish....kind of like meditation....Ooooom.....

Gerry

Hi Gerry,
Actually, yes, I am going through this process on every shot. It still puts me off on occassion, but the process is becoming faster and easier.

I remember a math challenge we used to do in Grade 7. Had to multiply the set of numbers 1 to 12 by each other in a random sequence. To begin the process was slow, but after a lot of practice I could do most of it by memory (a sequence of 144 calculations).

Point is, if you've got enough time and practice something enough, the mental work will become somewhat automated. So the better I learn the adjustments, the less I'll have to think about them, and all I have to do is feel the pot angle for the natural roll shot and then apply the adjustment.

I think if I do this for 8 hours a day for a few months it will work....unless I go crazy first.

Hard to recommend such a system to once or twice a week player. But it may help them on a few shots if they are aware of some basic adjustments, such as many part time players who know there are a few shots that OE works for them. I think this type of system could be effective for people who have decided to dedicate themselves for a few months of hard practice.

Colin

MacGyver · May 5, 2006

If I'm getting your right, you are correct in saying that a lot of the best players play by feel. In aiming threads on here they talk about feel and this is what they are talking about. There is no aiming system that automatically adjusts for throw. This is something you have to feel.

This is actually what I disagree with and am frustrated by!!!

I understand I might not be the norm and that it might be over some people's heads...

My point is that if someone would have just explained to me how a little inside, draw or follow could keep my soft cuts from staying on the "true" line while soft stun would throw it off, I never would have had to have clunky "adjustments in feel" or had my % go down..

I guess I feel like i've wasted time just because I didn't learn this principle until just recently, I think I only thought it was applicable on extreme cuts and even then I didnt know how much I had to adjust or ways to counter-act it.

I realize now on ALL table length shots where I was hitting soft stun, the reason I was always hitting the rail first or in the case of the side pocket always hitting the near-point instead of potting it.

I had honestly thought my aim was off on those.... in reality it was just soft stun(as I said I add a little bit of IE, Follow or Draw and everything goes in now!!!!)

Now, I've read Banking with the beard, 99 critical shots, Dr. Daves articles, Dr. Cue articles and a BUNCH of stuff on forums related to this, and even though CIT was mentioned, I really dont think that I'd ever seen how easy it was to cancel, or how pronounced the effect was even on a non-extreme cut.

I *don't* think throw is something you need to adjust by feel, if a person has a natural ability to hit the correct contact point that *should* send the ball down the correct path, this crucial bit of info on soft stuns *will* allow the aiming system to work for throw, accuratly.

I think anytime you start telling someone to use pocket speed or to use stun shots this bit of info needs to be included, it's death to your game imho if you dont know this....

I mean literally per *long* night, I probably have 4-8 previously hangers that are now easy-makes just by putting IE, draw or follow instead of stun, still playing pocket speed!!!!!!

So I say:
-DONT assume throw cant be integrated with an "aiming system" such as ghostball/contact point
-DO tell people about it even if they might shrug it off
-DO specifically explain soft stun when talking about throw and how it affects even smaller cuts.

I mean it will take an extra 15 seconds to say("watch out for soft stun, it adds more than enough throw to miss, a bit of IE/Draw/Follow or hitting it hard will make it pot though") and would make a world of difference to players that were hanging shots and just didnt know why, even though they were aiming correctly!!!!

Flex · May 5, 2006

mikepage said:
I think it's because it's a small minority of instructors, authors, and top players that know about it.

mike page
fargo

Not only that, it's a SECRET....

Flex

Flex · May 5, 2006

CaptainJR said:
In the 9th paragraph of the original post MacGyver says about showing this to beginners. I don't think I would.

I showed some of this kind of thing to several people, including some who've been playing pool for years, and they didn't get it. Not that they're all that good, but even with an explanation and showing them how it works they still didn't get it. Maybe they didn't want to get it. I don't know... One of them told me he doesn't want to get into all this stuff so deeply, he has other things to do in life, etc.

Flex

TSW · May 5, 2006

MacGyver said:
So I say:
-DONT assume throw cant be integrated with an "aiming system" such as ghostball/contact point
-DO tell people about it even if they might shrug it off
-DO specifically explain soft stun when talking about throw and how it affects even smaller cuts.

I agree completely. I consistently overcut pocket-speed stun shots and I never fully understood why until this series of threads. I thought it was an aiming problem; now I feel much more confident that I understand the physics behind it and can adjust accordingly.

Also, the feel vs. system debate is really two sides of the same coin. All great players have great feel - that's part of the reason why they're the best. Obviously no system can encapsulate all of a great player's experience and learned knowledge, but a proper system can provide shortcuts. This is no different than providing lessons on basic stance, aim, and strategy. You don't have to re-invent the wheel here.

lewdo26 · May 5, 2006

tsw_521 said:
Also, the feel vs. system debate is really two sides of the same coin. All great players have great feel - that's part of the reason why they're the best. Obviously no system can encapsulate all of a great player's experience and learned knowledge, but a proper system can provide shortcuts. This is no different than providing lessons on basic stance, aim, and strategy. You don't have to re-invent the wheel here.

That's very good. Intuition and method are not mutually exclusive. Even in science.

Mad about Soft Stun Throw!!!

MacGyver

AzB Silver Member

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member

Gerry

AzB Silver Member

mikepage

AzB Silver Member

CaptainJR

Shiver me timbers.

mikepage

AzB Silver Member

CaptainJR

Shiver me timbers.

supergreenman

truly addicted

supergreenman

truly addicted

CaptainJR

Shiver me timbers.

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member

MacGyver

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Flex

Banger

Flex

Banger

TSW

AzB Silver Member

lewdo26

Registered User will do