WPBL (Bonus Ball) - Pocket Cut

nathandumoulin

WPBL / RUNOUT MEDIA
Silver Member
Maybe Nathan will confirm or correct. 3 7/8" is what has been talked about here for quite a few days.

This was mentioned in another thread, so I figured I'd just start a new one. Pocket cuts are like aiming systems as it seems people are very defensive about them, but I figured I'd explain my take on them, as I feel it's a very important element of what we're doing here at the WPBL arena.

I've been a firm believer that the current pocket cut in North America is one of the reason why pool is suffering here. Sounds a bit harsh, and maybe it is, but hopefully I can explain why. I've had an idea of how to improve this for a few years, and proposed it back in a thread last year.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=255620&highlight=pocket

Unfortunately I was met with nearly universal resistance, but I stuck with it anyway. Bonus Ball finally offered me the chance to put my ideas into action.

The issue is that the current pocket standard is penalizing the better players by opening the faces. It jaws balls, and forces players to play pocket speed, thus making the pocket play "phony". A player can slop a ball in softly if rolled in, but a well hit shot done firmly will be rejected. Its terrible for the better players, and even worse for TV, as players often opt to play safe instead of taking on a shot where a ball needs to be pounded in down the rail. I feel a player should be able to pound balls in with speed, with as much spin as possible, and the pocket should always accept it provided the shot was accurate. The aggressive guys who are willing to play dramatic shots should be rewarded, and this new cut does exactly that.

The trick is to shrink the pocket, push the facings back towards parallel so they're around 138 (rather than 141-142), and then ditch the shelf. A ball either goes in, or it misses entirely. No more pocket speed or jawed balls. If you put the ball into the tiny opening, it goes in. If you miss, it leaves the pocket area entirely, thus eliminating jawed balls almost entirely.

It's basically doing the exact opposite of what everyone else has been doing.

I called Ernesto, and had him cut the pockets the way I wanted. To my surprise, he agreed and said that he's done this before, and thinks its the way a pocket should be cut. Sure enough, as players trickled in during opening week, they all agreed. The result is what all the pros here are now calling "a true pro cut". As far as I know, the support is unanimous.

You have to be accurate as hell, but the balls take as they should. Its the best of all worlds, and I'm a firm believer that this will become the new standard, as I know that Rasson over in China is already testing this cut, and may make it the new standard in Asia (albeit 4.25" inch for amateurs, which plays like a 4.5"). Time will tell whether it takes, but from what I've seen this far, the pros may be hesitant to go back to the old cut style.

Please keep in mind that I'm just doing what I feel is best for the game. Not everyone will agree, but whats important to me is that its best for TV, and what the players now agree they want.
 

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AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Interesting! So with the short shelf and more parallel facings, would the soon-to-be 4" BB pockets play about as difficult as a normal 4 1/4" pocket (except for leaving fewer balls in the jaws)?
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
I can't stand deep shelves with small openings. And it's for exactly the same reason you stated, it makes the game different to the point that it's not even fun any more.

When I watched the match yesterday I noticed that the players were NOT rattling balls but they were running out seemingly without fear. I wondered about that because I thought the pockets would so tight that they would cause a lot of misses and a lot more safety play. Now I know that it's your idea of small openings but shallow shelves and I understand why they could play so good on the small pockets.

I think that this is a GREAT innovation and moreover I think it's great that you were able to realize it and try out your theory.

To mean this is what it takes, the small pockets are great because they force precision but not to the point where they cut off power. Being able to bring it with the power shots is one of the things that makes pool exciting. Once the ball gets past the pocket points it should be down.
 

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
Sounds like it's working as you thought it would. I've also thought for years (since Diamond came out with their pro-cut pockets) that they didn't take well hit balls that should go in no matter how hard you hit them or no matter how much spin is used. Sometimes you have to think out of the box like you did and stick by your guns.

Great thinking and great job your doing. Since I've got all the BB rules in my head and watched a few hours of play I've come to enjoy watching the game. Good luck the rest of the way and I hope the game gets picked up by TV and that the legal online sports books in other countries take bets on Bonus Ball. To me the key to making pool and/or BB go big mainstream is you have to be able to bet on it. Johnnyt
 

ctran

You watch me.
Silver Member
I noticed the difference when I watched the youtube video. I wondered how the pocket was cut also because I saw tight pockets, but when the balls played to the pocket and rattled it, they still fall, which was not the case for other tables I saw.

I, too, am very annoyed by the fact that a firm shot sometimes doesn't make balls as well as soft and "pussy" push. that we have to compromise power when we need it most.

This is a great idea, and this is exactly how pocket should be cut.

if possible can you provide the detailed specs of pocket?
 

Dopc

www.PoolActionTV.com
Silver Member
I just finished watching the youtube 2 hour match. I then come here to post a question about this very topic, I just wasn't fast enough I guess.
I was noticing the pockets being very receptive for their small size and was curious if the pocket angles were decreased ( I assume the down angle is left within current standard ). What I hadn't noticed during watching was the short shelf. Very interesting concept I must say, and very brave to attempt to change what most consider the standard/norm in pocket geometry design.
Seeing BB as a completely brand new game and style of play, I see no reason not to venture in to other "out of the norm" configurations such as these pocket angles.


:Warning: opinion time from an absolute nobody.

Lose the girls, they obviously know nothing about the sport nor give the appearance of even caring and lend NOTHING to the game. If us men want to see pretty girls, we don't need to watch pool for that as there is a plethora of other free content available online. In addition, I believe they are a complete smack in the face to any females who just might get/be interested in the sport. How many female BB players are there currently by the way?
Reduce the commentary by about 70%, and hit anyone over the head with a hammer that speaks over the officials announcements and introductions. I'm not watching pool to listen to an episode of "The View" or "The Psychic Network of shot prediction". I had it muted roughly 40% of the 2 hours. Keep the focus on the game and it's players.
Speaking of players, I would love to hear what the players have to say to one another about strategy and situations they are facing. That will promote the game more so I believe than endless commentary.
I must admit, I've been a bit skeptical of BB, but found it enjoyable to watch. It is not however something I would pay to see, sorry if that stings a little but I just don't see the value in it or any other pool stream. I understand and respect the financial issues surrounding it, but others have figured out how to do it without soliciting the end users.
I must admit the game has grown on me some. I hope BB can find a way to survive other than generating its revenue from viewership fees. We all know 97% (rough estimate by me) of all pool players are broke and praying for the next fish to come along for gas & food money. If you like pool and you can afford dinner at Mortons, you are in the 3% without a doubt.
I will continue to follow to see how this all plays out (pardon the pun), and wish BB and the players all the best.

Dopc.

P.S. Oh no, what have I done. They're going to hate me now......... I'm sure I'll regret posting this real soon......
 

victorl

Where'd my stroke go?
Silver Member
Easy? Did you see those pockets? The only reason it looks easy is that the world's best players are shooting on them.
 

randallt6

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i like these new pockets, I hope ppl will follow suit and see this more often now.
 

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't agree with your assessment

Why has every other sport with the exception of majors in golf gone the other way. More offense not less. ,

Why should create a advantage for players who can pocket balls better this could leave out players who have better position skills its a theory I have never or will ever agree with
Now that the reviews are in what is everyone looking for bigger pockets
Go figure


1
 

nathandumoulin

WPBL / RUNOUT MEDIA
Silver Member
Why has every other sport with the exception of majors in golf gone the other way. More offense not less.

You lost me here. These pockets make it so you can pocket more consistently without it jawing, meaning you can play the shot more firmly, and with more spin. That means players with great cue ball control can play better position, go 3+ rails, without fear of the ball spitting out.

It helps those with excellent position play, as well as pocketing.
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
Very nice explanation.

It will be interesting to see how this aspect plays out, not only with Bonus Ball.
 

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You lost me here. These pockets make it so you can pocket more consistently without it jawing, meaning you can play the shot more firmly, and with more spin. That means players with great cue ball control can play better position, go 3+ rails, without fear of the ball spitting out.

It helps those with excellent position play, as well as pocketing.

That only helps shots coming in from a certain angle other will hit the point there is no scenario where a 3 7/8 pocket will play easier than a 4.25 or higher
I contest that the general public non pool players would rather see big runs that's why you will never see one pocket gain major tv viewing
It's been a pretty simple equation in all the major sports more offense more viewers


1
 
This was mentioned in another thread, so I figured I'd just start a new one. Pocket cuts are like aiming systems as it seems people are very defensive about them, but I figured I'd explain my take on them, as I feel it's a very important element of what we're doing here at the WPBL arena.

I've been a firm believer that the current pocket cut in North America is one of the reason why pool is suffering here. Sounds a bit harsh, and maybe it is, but hopefully I can explain why. I've had an idea of how to improve this for a few years, and proposed it back in a thread last year.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=255620&highlight=pocket

Unfortunately I was met with nearly universal resistance, but I stuck with it anyway. Bonus Ball finally offered me the chance to put my ideas into action.

The issue is that the current pocket standard is penalizing the better players by opening the faces. It jaws balls, and forces players to play pocket speed, thus making the pocket play "phony". A player can slop a ball in softly if rolled in, but a well hit shot done firmly will be rejected. Its terrible for the better players, and even worse for TV, as players often opt to play safe instead of taking on a shot where a ball needs to be pounded in down the rail. I feel a player should be able to pound balls in with speed, with as much spin as possible, and the pocket should always accept it provided the shot was accurate. The aggressive guys who are willing to play dramatic shots should be rewarded, and this new cut does exactly that.

The trick is to shrink the pocket, push the facings back towards parallel so they're around 138 (rather than 141-142), and then ditch the shelf. A ball either goes in, or it misses entirely. No more pocket speed or jawed balls. If you put the ball into the tiny opening, it goes in. If you miss, it leaves the pocket area entirely, thus eliminating jawed balls almost entirely.

It's basically doing the exact opposite of what everyone else has been doing.

I called Ernesto, and had him cut the pockets the way I wanted. To my surprise, he agreed and said that he's done this before, and thinks its the way a pocket should be cut. Sure enough, as players trickled in during opening week, they all agreed. The result is what all the pros here are now calling "a true pro cut". As far as I know, the support is unanimous.

You have to be accurate as hell, but the balls take as they should. Its the best of all worlds, and I'm a firm believer that this will become the new standard, as I know that Rasson over in China is already testing this cut, and may make it the new standard in Asia (albeit 4.25" inch for amateurs, which plays like a 4.5"). Time will tell whether it takes, but from what I've seen this far, the pros may be hesitant to go back to the old cut style.

Please keep in mind that I'm just doing what I feel is best for the game. Not everyone will agree, but whats important to me is that its best for TV, and what the players now agree they want.

This question was answered before.....and is still the right answer....you have made a smaller target in the center of the table.....in which most tables are going with.
But....the big difference is that you made it a lot easier to pocket balls down the rails.

No matter what size pockets are on a pool table.....shooting a ball down the rail is always the smallest target on the table.

You have made that target range shooting down the rail look smaller.....but made it play very big with a 138 miter cut.

Sure the players are going to like it....they're not used to playing on something that takes everything down the rails.

Shooting balls close to the rails....should take more skill from the players.....that's what separates the good players from the great players.

All your doing is making it the same for all players........with the exception of the smaller target in the center of the table......the more accurate player will show up in the center of the table....not shooting balls down the rails.

I have all the respect for Ernesto......he's been a long time friend and great guy.....this has nothing to do with him......just giving my knowledge of pockets and tables.

Rails are something we need to understand better....there's a lot of people offering this kind of work today......but......a lot of people doing the work don't have the first clue what their really doing....their just following numbers...and think the table plays fine.

I've said this time and again....if your not a good player....how are you ever going to understand how rails or pocket openings should play.

Ernesto's was and is still a great player.....and he's done great table work for ever....I just don't agree with making the pockets play so easy shooting down the rails.....takes away the better players advantages of being a great player.

Mark Gregory
 
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Diamond69

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nathan,
Thanks for the detailed explanation and reasoning behind the change. I'm not sure if you took some advice from people regarding your posts, or stress has been reduced after the launch, but your recent posts are taking on a completely different feel than ones from a week ago.
Your explanation makes me like the idea, of course I haven't played on them yet, so can't give a true opinion.
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
Nathan,
Thanks for the detailed explanation and reasoning behind the change. I'm not sure if you took some advice from people regarding your posts, or stress has been reduced after the launch, but your recent posts are taking on a completely different feel than ones from a week ago.
Your explanation makes me like the idea, of course I haven't played on them yet, so can't give a true opinion.

Agreed....
 
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