Ghost ball aiming

(((Satori))) said:

I'll start by saying that this thread was inspired by a YouTube video made by John Barton. I can't seem to find it again or I would post a link here, but the point of the video was that it is very hard to accurately locate the exact center of ghost ball location to aim at. I

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You couldn't have tried very hard to find the link.

http://bit.ly/13Wov6H

Why Ghost Ball Aiming is Bad For Good Players - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePqvWvD7V0U

Why Ghost Ball Aiming Fails You - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-L4QMNiVxk

(((Satori))) said:

I'll start by saying that this thread was inspired by a YouTube video made by John Barton. I can't seem to find it again or I would post a link here, but the point of the video was that it is very hard to accurately locate the exact center of ghost ball location to aim at. In my short time here on AZ I have came to like John and I love to read his posts and watch his videos. He has a lot of stuff to say but I just wanted to say that this video does not demonstrate what really happens from successful ghost all users. In fact it is a misconception that ghostball users find the center and aim at it IMO and once you understand this it might help some of you or it might not. He'll I might not even be able to communicate my thoughts clearly enough to help anyone, but I'll try.

If someone were to ask me how I aim, I would say ghost ball but I don't consciously locate the center of the ghostball and aim at it. This process is way to conscious to work. You will never be able to consciously locate the exact point on the table to aim at and then consciously hit the cue to that exact spot, john did a great job of explaining that, but you can picture the ghostball (or more importantly picture the result of the shot that you want and locate approximatly where the ghost ball needs to be in order to get the results) and then trust that your subconscious will do the job for you. The majority of the aiming process should be a subconscious act IMO. Your conscious mind sees what you want to happen then lines you up close but it is your subconscious that lines you up precisely as you drop in on the shot and it is your subconscious mind that coordinates every muscle needed to work perfectly in executing the task of sending the cue all to the exact location of where the ghostball is. The conscious mind doesn't need to figure every detail of the execution. It just needs to get a clear picture of the outcome then trust.

A big part of the process is simply believing that you will make the shot. Lining up to the ghostball just puts you on the right path to start off on. As long as you have a clear picture of the cue ball sending the object ball straight into the pocket and you truly believe that you will execute it then you trust that your sub will perform. That is what professional ghostball aiming is all about. Consciously you just have to find a rough estimate of the location of the ghostball. The sub communicates through pictures and if you have a picture of success then it will locate the exact point that John was trying to consciously find for you and it will allow your body to send the cue all there if you let it.

Basically what I am saying is that Aiming is too difficult of a task to consciously execute and this is true no matter what system you use.

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Let's start with the very last sentence.

Basically what I am saying is that Aiming is too difficult of a task to consciously execute and this is true no matter what system you use.

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All that you have said about GB could have been said without this last sentence. Aiming can be and is consciously executed with any aiming method. And in fact if you ever, ever visualize the shot then you are consciously aiming. Any thought that you are aware of is a conscious one.

Now visualizing the outcome is of course a well known technique in pool and all sports. I agree that using the Ghost Ball method gets you close. I agree that aiming with this method involves a lot of faith and trust.

I agree that having so-called shot pictures of successful shots is a technique that a lot of players use. And I agree that for a lot of players aiming is a "just do it" subconscious activity.

But, like driving it's an activity that requires a lot of conscious repetition to master to the point of subconscious successful use. To get to the see-and-shoot level requires a tremendous amount of shot-for-shot practice.

And even with all that practice you may have some shots which continue to give you trouble. Shots which you consistently are able to make in practice but in competition you consistently miss them.

All this is asking your subconscious for a lot. And for some people it works perfectly. Your subconscious imagines the shot perfectly every time shot after shot after shot after shot - until it doesn't. Then you stand up after delivering a perfect stroke and wonder why you missed. You think I was CERTAIN that I was aimed dead perfect. But you still missed.

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The whole point of CTE and similar methods is to take the subjectivity out of aiming and replace it with objectivity. To take the guesswork and the need to imagine shots and to take away the need to "get close" and have to trust the subconscious.

I agree that there are very good players who use GB and visualization or simply don't even think about it at all and just shoot. Bartram has stated that for example. Then on the other hand there are very good players, pros even, who have stated that learning a more objective method of aiming has helped them to aim more accurately.

I don't agree that aiming is so complicated that it cannot be done consciously. I think it can and is done consciously, hyper-consciously with CTE aiming for example and that this results in a higher percentage of balls pocketed, more run outs and overall a higher level of success.

I have a simple challenge for everyone on this forum who honestly thinks that GB and 'just-see-it" methods are fine for their playing needs.

Take the Billiard University tests. Identify yourself as to how you aim before the test and take it and see where you end up. I think that the majority of high scoring players will be aiming system users rather than GB/Feel users.

At the end of the day it comes down to performance. The whole point of talking about any of this is to help people play better pool and put the balls in the holes more often. So if you, individually, are at the top percentage of players using GB/Feel then don't change. If you think you can't get any better then don't bother with any other way to aim.

Use whatever lets you play your best game. For me, that's Pro One. For others, it might be ghost ball.

All that matters to me is that the ball goes in the pocket. Unlike poker, pool is a very results oriented game.

(((Satori))) said:

"But, like driving it's an activity that requires a lot of conscious repetition to master to the point of subconscious successful use. To get to the see-and-shoot level requires a tremendous amount of shot-for-shot practice."

Yes it takes practice to program the sub and success to truly believe but knowing how the process works might help some who try to consciously control every aspect of the shot and never seem to be able to do it. It might be beneficial for some who want to experience the process to line up a shot that they are 95% certain they can make and get down and the shot and shoot it. Observe how they actually aimed for the ball. Chances are the simply located where they needed to be without much thought then got down and shot it with confidence. Then to expand there skills they can progressively expand the distance and the cut angles using the same process.


"And even with all that practice you may have some shots which continue to give you trouble. Shots which you consistently are able to make in practice but in competition you consistently miss them."

If you consistently make them in practice but you consists fly miss them in a match then you have an issue on believing you can make it. If it is just one shot that you miss that is. If it is more than one then it is the pressure of the match and that could be multiple things going on, but if it just one shot that you consistently miss then you need to drill it more until you know you can make it easily.

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The thing is that Ghost Ball causes illusions. Thus the need to imagine or line up for an undercut here, an overcut there, it's constant adjustment and makes players afraid of certain shots.

If you watch videos of the pros who are known CTE users you will see them often cutting balls down the rail from ridiculous angles and the announcers are going crazy but if you know CTE then you know that this shot has a well defined and objective aiming formula or visual to it.

Which brings us to another topic on the subject of Ghost Ball, vision. Not everyone sees the same thing. Even if we use the visualization method it depends on the input from the eyes. So if the eyes place the balls a hair off where they really are then the visualization----->subconscious alignment------->take shot routine is going to take a perfect shot in the wrong position. And it might be close enough to make the ball 97% of the time but you might need 99% to win the set.

So this is my problems with Ghost Ball.

BUT

I honestly have zero problem with anyone using it or practicing it or trying to become as you put it a "high level ghost ball user". The very fact that you say that high level users don't use it the conventional way illustrates that the Ghost Ball method, despite being described hundreds of times and with dozens of Ghost Ball training devices on the market, is pretty much all over the board on how people use and perceive it.

Again, I say it comes down to performance. I suggest that anyone who doesn't want to invest the time to learn CTE, SEE System, Stick Aiming, or CJ's TOI (not an aiming system), that they should then at least check their aiming in some way if they are not performing at the level they want to. Maybe they could be using GB better than they currently are.

Take the shotmaking tests and see where you stack up, then work on improving what needs to be fixed to get better.

hi all,

from my expirience there is a very small amount of players who are REALLY able to visualise the *ghostball*. That there are some of em i m sure about.
I personally use, if working with students (no matter what level), use the ghostball usually for explaining tangentline-and working with tangent-line while working out the first natural position-play routes.

To *learn* someone aiming i use other "systems" - ghostball just maybe one time *to show*- and that s it. After showing the player/student 2-3 other *things/options* then about 95+ % use one of those anyway.

this just from my expirience with students.

lg from overseas,

Ingo

The thing with ghost ball is that it requires such a high level of concentration to be able to make "difficult" shots. Pressure, feeling tired, alcohol etc make it almost impossible to be able to reach the level of concentration.

John has stated that with CTE ProOne there are no "difficult" shots. That's true. Each shot has the same level of difficulty as the previous, as long as you follow the guidlines set out by Stan. That being said I strongly believe you need an understanding of ghost ball to succeed with any aiming method. And that's why complete beginners get taught ghost ball.

I've used ProOne for years and have stopped using it for around 6 months or so now. Not because it doesnt work but because I play English pool and it doesn't work with that game. I've also used ghost ball for the best part of 15 years when playing snooker. I didn't so much try to imagine where the imaginary CB should be, although I did for about the first year but after that it was more imagining the CB traveling towards to OB until I found the right line the CB should take to pocket the OB.

There is no right or wrong way to aim - if it gets the ball in the hole then use it.

Pidge said:

John has stated that with CTE ProOne there are no "difficult" shots. That's true. Each shot has the same level of difficulty as the previous, as long as you follow the guidlines set out by Stan. That being said I strongly believe you need an understanding of ghost ball to succeed with any aiming method.



There is no right or wrong way to aim - if it gets the ball in the hole then use it.

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I absolutely agree with all of these statements. When I am having a tough time determining what the correct visual is for Pro One, I sometimes use a rough form of Ghost Ball as a gut check. As you say in your last statement, the bottom line is to do whatever is necessary to get the ball in the pocket. I cannot imagine playing much pool and attempting to use GB on every shot, it would get very tiring and tedious.

Pidge said:

The thing with ghost ball is that it requires such a high level of concentration to be able to make "difficult" shots. Pressure, feeling tired, alcohol etc make it almost impossible to be able to reach the level of concentration.

John has stated that with CTE ProOne there are no "difficult" shots. That's true. Each shot has the same level of difficulty as the previous, as long as you follow the guidlines set out by Stan. That being said I strongly believe you need an understanding of ghost ball to succeed with any aiming method. And that's why complete beginners get taught ghost ball.

I've used ProOne for years and have stopped using it for around 6 months or so now. Not because it doesnt work but because I play English pool and it doesn't work with that game. I've also used ghost ball for the best part of 15 years when playing snooker. I didn't so much try to imagine where the imaginary CB should be, although I did for about the first year but after that it was more imagining the CB traveling towards to OB until I found the right line the CB should take to pocket the OB.

There is no right or wrong way to aim - if it gets the ball in the hole then use it.

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Can you explain why you believe ghost requires a high level of concentration for "difficult" shots where as other systems do not.

Wouldn't the affects of alcohol play into any system?

There are no difficult shots in pool. The degree of difficulty comes from the player not the ball layout. So, even in ghost ball there are no difficult shots, only those that you think are difficult.

I find interesting that people do not have a problem seeing lines, or using fractions of hit for aiming or back of the ball, all which require visualization skills, but just can not understand ghostball and therefore dismiss it favor of being in the good ole CTE boys club.

If CTE is such strong medicine, why do you miss? If there are no difficult shots, how come you miss or don't always run out? How come you are not winning every match you play?

Simple, cause you failed and not the system that was used. Its the user of the xxx system and not the system used.

There is ghost balling aiming and ghost ball visualization. There are no aiming systems, as I've wrote before, but aiming visualization systems. Ghost ball aiming is understanding the various affects of where the CB contacts the OB affects the OB direction of travel.

Ghost ball visualization is seeing where the CB needs to be based on where you determined the CB needed to be by using ghostball aiming.

And just like CTE, the more you shoot, the more you build your visual intelligence on what the proper hit looks look for that shot so you can use it again,......so visual intelligent is just not a CTE thing but is in every aiming method used.

But then again.......Im just a low level player that really is a hack and not a expert on all things pool as some are.....

Greg,

My Dad introduced the 'ghost ball' concept when he first introduced me to the game. He never used the term ghost ball & never told me to visualize a ball there. he just explained how the CB must contact the OB to get it to go into the pocket. From there I very quickly evolved into seeing the fractional overlap of the two balls form behind the CB to get the ball to go into the pocket.

I have never visualized a ghost ball but the principle is still there. IMHO I think it is still there in CTE & Pro 1 due to the A.B, C & 1/8 contact points.

Now with TOI and the CTC & CTE it is not because those are not the contact points to pocket the ball, but merely the starting point before CB squirt adds more cut. That is done dynamically & not by any 'aiming'.

One's playing ability should never have any bearing on what one knows regarding the game. How many times has it been said that an instructor's playing level should have no bearing on his ability to teach. I don't totally agree with that concept across the board but there are obvious exceptions to rules of thumb.

Hang in there. 'Ghost Ball' is the starting principle to all 'aiming' methods. It is & always will be, 'how, what method can we use to get the ball to the proper 'ghost ball' location that pockets the ball'.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

duckie said:

Can you explain why you believe ghost requires a high level of concentration for "difficult" shots where as other systems do not.

Wouldn't the affects of alcohol play into any system?

There are no difficult shots in pool. The degree of difficulty comes from the player not the ball layout. So, even in ghost ball there are no difficult shots, only those that you think are difficult.

I find interesting that people do not have a problem seeing lines, or using fractions of hit for aiming or back of the ball, all which require visualization skills, but just can not understand ghostball and therefore dismiss it favor of being in the good ole CTE boys club.

If CTE is such strong medicine, why do you miss? If there are no difficult shots, how come you miss or don't always run out? How come you are not winning every match you play?

Simple, cause you failed and not the system that was used. Its the user of the xxx system and not the system used.

There is ghost balling aiming and ghost ball visualization. There are no aiming systems, as I've wrote before, but aiming visualization systems. Ghost ball aiming is understanding the various affects of where the CB contacts the OB affects the OB direction of travel.

Ghost ball visualization is seeing where the CB needs to be based on where you determined the CB needed to be by using ghostball aiming.

And just like CTE, the more you shoot, the more you build your visual intelligence on what the proper hit looks look for that shot so you can use it again,......so visual intelligent is just not a CTE thing but is in every aiming method used.

But then again.......Im just a low level player that really is a hack and not a expert on all things pool as some are.....

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Try getting down on a shot and try pointing your cue tip at the centre of an imaginary ball that's 10ft away. Difficult, even with a dead straight stroke right?

Now try that same shot by standing behind the CTE line and imagining (you don't have to imagine, seeing as every one has a straight object in their hands already) a secondary line to a specific part on the balls. Now tell me which requires the most concentration and which is the more difficult to execute.

I get the feeling that you think I'm in the "CTE is the best thing since sliced bread" group - I'm not. It has its advantages over ghost ball aiming and the reverse is true.

I think a combination of aiming methods are needed to make you the best ball potter you can be.

ENGLISH! said:

Greg,

My Dad introduced the 'ghost ball' concept when he first introduced me to the game. He never used the term ghost ball & never told me to visualize a ball there. he just explained how the CB must contact the OB to get it to go into the pocket. From there I very quickly evolved into seeing the fractional overlap of the two balls form behind the CB to get the ball to go into the pocket.

I have never visualized a ghost ball but the principle is still there. IMHO I think it is still there in CTE & Pro 1 due to the A.B, C & 1/8 contact points.

Now with TOI and the CTC & CTE it is not because those are not the contact points to pocket the ball, but merely the starting point before CB squirt adds more cut. That is done dynamically & not by any 'aiming'.

One's playing ability should never have any bearing on what one knows regarding the game. How many times has it been said that an instructor's playing level should have no bearing on his ability to teach. I don't totally agree with that concept across the board but there are obvious exceptions to rules of thumb.

Hang in there. 'Ghost Ball' is the starting principle to all 'aiming' methods. It is & always will be, 'how, what method can we use to get the ball to the proper 'ghost ball' location that pockets the ball'.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

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Before you make definitive statements, such as you have above concerning CTE and that ghost ball is the starting point to all aiming systems, maybe you should learn some of those aiming systems so you don't make false statements. And, there is a big difference between putting the cb where the ghost ball would be and ghost ball aiming.

Why make a concrete statement like "One's playing ability should never have any bearing on what one knows regarding the game.", and then in the same breath contradict it?

Neil said:

Before you make definitive statements, such as you have above concerning CTE and that ghost ball is the starting point to all aiming systems, maybe you should learn some of those aiming systems so you don't make false statements. If you will reread maybe you will note that I said "IMHO". That is not a definitive statement. And, there is a big difference between putting the cb where the ghost ball would be and ghost ball aiming. Why don't you explain the difference?

Why make a concrete statement like "One's playing ability should never have any bearing on what one knows regarding the game.", and then in the same breath contradict it? Again, please explain where have I contradicted myself. I may not have been completely clear or sufficiently explained why I don't totally agree, but I don't see any direct contradiction.

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You have great day!:smile:

Neil said:

Before you make definitive statements, such as you have above concerning CTE and that ghost ball is the starting point to all aiming systems, maybe you should learn some of those aiming systems so you don't make false statements. And, there is a big difference between putting the cb where the ghost ball would be and ghost ball aiming.

Why make a concrete statement like "One's playing ability should never have any bearing on what one knows regarding the game.", and then in the same breath contradict it?

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Neil, why do you even waste your time with this troll? Despite his long term suspension, he's immediately back trying to pick fights and argue with people who support CTE/Pro One. He's just being a bit more subtle about it to avoid being suspended again. He is so full of himself he thinks he is so much smarter than everyone else that he is fooling someone. Don't worry, it will be Scott Lee next. It is useless for him to direct his posts at me as I have him on ignore and on ignore is where he'll remain.

nobcitypool said:

neil, why do you even waste your time with this troll? Despite his long term suspension, he's immediately back trying to pick fights and argue with people who support cte/pro one. He's just being a bit more subtle about it to avoid being suspended again. He is so full of himself he thinks he is so much smarter than everyone else that he is fooling someone. Don't worry, it will be scott lee next. It is useless for him to direct his posts at me as i have him on ignore and on ignore is where he'll remain.

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(((Satori))) said:

Here is a little visualization trick you can try.

If you are having trouble seeing the ball go straight into the hole. First visualize how a shot would look if you undercut it. Pay attention to where the ghost ball lined up. Next visualize what the shot would look like if you over cut it. Again pay attention to where the ghostball needed to be in your mind. Then picture your cueball going in between the two ghostballs and sending the ob straight into the center pocket, drop down into the shot and tell yourself that this is going straight into center pocket. Pull the trigger and voila.


Try it and see the results.

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This sounds a little bit like Patrick Johnson's wiggle method. Hmm...

nobcitypool said:

Neil, why do you even waste your time with this troll? Despite his long term suspension, he's immediately back trying to pick fights and argue with people who support CTE/Pro One. He's just being a bit more subtle about it to avoid being suspended again. He is so full of himself he thinks he is so much smarter than everyone else that he is fooling someone. Don't worry, it will be Scott Lee next. It is useless for him to direct his posts at me as I have him on ignore and on ignore is where he'll remain.

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You could not be further from the truth. I am very intrigued by CTE / Pro 1 & Mr. Stan & I have 'talked' briefly. He even invited me to be a test case as he saw me as unbiased & with an open mind. I declined as I rarely travel due to my back.

If anyone will look back, they will see that I have not been arguing with anyone about CTE / Pro 1. I will & have admitted that I am not informed enough to form any conclusive opinions. My brief attempt with CTE based on the limited information that I had at the time was intriguing but certainly inconclusive.

It is not me that is trying to start a 'fight' or an 'argument' here.

You have a great evening.:smile: