2013 Mosconi Cup Scores and Individual Records

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Scoring the way it counted, by matches:
  • Day 1 -- USA 0, Europe 5
  • Day 2 -- USA 2, Europe 3
  • Day 3 -- USA 0, Europe 3
  • Total -- 2-11

Scoring by games rather than matches:
  • Day 1 -- USA 17, Europe 30
  • Day 2 -- USA 21, Europe 28
  • Day 3 -- USA 11, Europe 18
  • Total -- 49-76

Individual players' records. For this, I counted a full win or loss for each player in a doubles' match (i.e., not splitting the point into halves), and a win and a loss for everyone in the team match (i.e., not splitting the point into fifths). For each player, the first record is for singles, the second for doubles, the third for the team match, and the fourth is the total. Best records -- Feijen and Souquet undefeated; worst records -- Hatch and Archer with no wins. No winning records for the USA; all winning records for Europe.


0-1, 0-2, 0-1, 0-4.....Archer
0-1, 1-2, 0-1, 1-4.....Strickland
0-1, 1-3, 0-1, 1-5.....Morris
0-1, 2-0, 0-1, 2-2.....Van Boening
0-1, 0-3, 0-1, 0-5.....Hatch

1-0, 2-0, 1-0, 4-0.....Souquet
1-0, 1-2, 1-0, 3-2.....Immonen
1-0, 3-0, 1-0, 5-0.....Feijen
1-0, 2-1, 1-0, 4-1.....Appleton
1-0, 2-1, 1-0, 4-1.....Boyes​


Instead, counting half a point for each player in a doubles win or loss, and one-fifth of a point for each player in the team match, the records were as follows. Best records -- Feijen and Souquet; worst records -- Hatch and Archer. All losing records for the USA; all winning records for Europe.


Archer: 0 - 2.2
Strickland: 0.5 - 2.2
Morris: 0.5 - 2.7
Van Boening: 1.0 - 1.2
Hatch: 0 - 2.7
USA Total: 2 - 11


Souquet: 2.2 - 0
Immonen: 1.7 - 1
Feijen: 2.7 - 0
Appleton: 2.2 - 0.5
Boyes: 2.2 - 0.5
Europe Total: 11 - 2​
 
Oh, how fickle are the pool gods.

Archer went from 6-0 last year to 0-4 this year.

This was Morris' 9th Cup appearance. He was 18-3 in his first four appearances, and is now 4-20 in his last four. (He also had a 3-4 record sandwiched in between those two 4-year groupings).
 
Thanks for the statistics. It definitely tells the story well. :embarrassed2:
 
Thanks for the stats! Anyone care about taking on the tedious task of individual stats based on

1) balls made
2) balls missed
3) unforced errors (scratching, or hooking them selves)
4) games won
5) games lost
6) dry breaks
7) balls made on the break
8) 9 on the break

I'm actually thinking about taking this on, but don't know if I will. I'm curious what story those stats would tell....
 
Scottyboy716 said:
Thanks for the stats! Anyone care about taking on the tedious task of individual stats based on

1) balls made
2) balls missed
3) unforced errors (scratching, or hooking them selves)
4) games won
5) games lost
6) dry breaks
7) balls made on the break
8) 9 on the break

I'm actually thinking about taking this on, but don't know if I will. I'm curious what story those stats would tell....
Click to expand...

I'm doing it right now actually. Already got a spreadsheet made. Now I just have to watch the matches.

The stats I'm looking at are split into two categories:

Mistakes/Errors:
- Misses
- Poor Positional Play
- Missed Kick/Jump Shot
- Poor Safety

Rolls:
- On missed attempts where they don't leave anything
- On legal kick/jump shots where they don't leave anything
- On missed attempts where the ball goes into an unintended pocket

It's not everything, but it's pretty cut and dry. I should have it done in the next few days.
 
I am no expert on this game, but I just watched the Earl-Karl match, and counted what I consider lucky rolls (rolls that happen, but not intentionally). The luck was definitely in favor our Europe:

Karl Lucky rolls
1. Earl Dry break, left a shot on 1 for Karl
2 Karl dry break, no shot on 1 for Earl
3. Earl Dry break, left a shot at 1 for Karl, and an easy 5-9 combo to get out
4. No luck involved, Earl wins
5. Karl misses 4, but leaves Earl hooked
Earl kicks good, but leaves a shot for Karl
6. Earl plays a good safe, Karl makes a good hit, gets safe so Earl cannot make the ball
7. Earl makes 7, but has no shot on 1
8. Karl dry break, no shot on 1 for Earl
9. Earl makes 5 and has a shot on 1,No luck involved, Earl wins
10. Karl dry break, no shot on 1 for Earl
Earl shoots a lock up safe, Karl 3 rail kicks good
Earl shots another lock up safe, Karl kicks good, ball lucks in, and has a shot on 3

So in all but 2 games, Karl had some kind of luck go his way. In the games with no luck, Earl wins hands down. If I had more time than sense, I would watch every match and see how many more lucky rolls the Europeans got than USA. That is not to say that Europe didn't play lights out. They were freakin' amazin'! But even a terrific team cannot win against good luck.

I know we took a beating, but I for one will stand up for the USA team rather than bash them. A few rolls that go our way, and the tournament could still be up for grabs today!
 
jmarcum1984 said:
I am no expert on this game, but I just watched the Earl-Karl match, and counted what I consider lucky rolls (rolls that happen, but not intentionally). The luck was definitely in favor our Europe:

Karl Lucky rolls
1. Earl Dry break, left a shot on 1 for Karl
2 Karl dry break, no shot on 1 for Earl
3. Earl Dry break, left a shot at 1 for Karl, and an easy 5-9 combo to get out
4. No luck involved, Earl wins
5. Karl misses 4, but leaves Earl hooked
Earl kicks good, but leaves a shot for Karl
6. Earl plays a good safe, Karl makes a good hit, gets safe so Earl cannot make the ball
7. Earl makes 7, but has no shot on 1
8. Karl dry break, no shot on 1 for Earl
9. Earl makes 5 and has a shot on 1,No luck involved, Earl wins
10. Karl dry break, no shot on 1 for Earl
Earl shoots a lock up safe, Karl 3 rail kicks good
Earl shots another lock up safe, Karl kicks good, ball lucks in, and has a shot on 3

So in all but 2 games, Karl had some kind of luck go his way. In the games with no luck, Earl wins hands down. If I had more time than sense, I would watch every match and see how many more lucky rolls the Europeans got than USA. That is not to say that Europe didn't play lights out. They were freakin' amazin'! But even a terrific team cannot win against good luck.

I know we took a beating, but I for one will stand up for the USA team rather than bash them. A few rolls that go our way, and the tournament could still be up for grabs today!
Click to expand...

That's about the story this year. I'm pretty sure Euro team would have won this year anyway, but the scores would have been a lot closer than 11-2 if the US guys got as many clear looks at shots after some random occurrence.
 
It's popular on AZ to say rolls and short races are why we keep losing.
Rolls can certainly determine one race to 5 or 6.

But after about 20 of those races it should even out.
And after getting reamed 6 out of 7 years, I think it's time for USA to the "Bad luck" excuse away.

Some of these are arguably not rolls:


1. Earl Dry break, left a shot on 1 for Karl - 2/3rds of the breaks were dry and it's considered 'normal'
luck to have at least a look at the 1. It's bad luck when you don't. This isn't a roll one way or the other,
just normal 9-ball.

5. Karl misses 4, but leaves Earl hooked - 2 way shots are as natural as breathing to any good 9b player.

Earl kicks good, but leaves a shot for Karl - again, normal 9 ball. It's Earl's responsibility to kick safe.
Sometimes it doesn't work out, but that's not a bad roll.
That's what's supposed to happen when someone safes you and you're forced to kick.

6. Earl plays a good safe, Karl makes a good hit, gets safe so Earl cannot make the ball

Meaning Karl did something skillful and got rewarded. Not a lucky roll. See above.

Earl shoots a lock up safe, Karl 3 rail kicks good
Earl shots another lock up safe, Karl kicks good, ball lucks in, and has a shot on 3

When I kick and get rewarded it's definitely luck, but when a champion like Karl does it,
it's probably not random. Earl's lockup safes coulda locked him up better I suspect.
 
Karl hit a few kicks at warp speed. When that happens and he gets safe that's a good roll.
 
Rolls
Everyone has heard the saying "I would rather be lucky than good"
I Say,
"I would rather be Lucky and Good" That's what Team Europe was.
 
Last edited:
BeiberLvr said:
I'm doing it right now actually. Already got a spreadsheet made. Now I just have to watch the matches.

The stats I'm looking at are split into two categories:

Mistakes/Errors:
- Misses
- Poor Positional Play
- Missed Kick/Jump Shot
- Poor Safety

Rolls:
- On missed attempts where they don't leave anything
- On legal kick/jump shots where they don't leave anything
- On missed attempts where the ball goes into an unintended pocket

It's not everything, but it's pretty cut and dry. I should have it done in the next few days.
Click to expand...

To give you an idea of where I'm at with this, I've watched 3 matches so far. First was Match 12, then I started from the beginning and have watched Match 1 and 2.

So far, mistakes are lead by USA 20-16 and rolls by Europe 8-3

Probably going to watch another 2 to 3 matches tonight. Hoping to have it done by Sunday, and then I'll post the results.
 
I agree that two way shots happen, but Karl was shooting to make the 4 and just plain missed, and luckily for him, hooked Earl. That was not a planned two way.

Agreed, the break is lucky or unlucky, but is sure seemed that Europe was way more lucky on the breaks and USA was way more unlucky.
 
jmarcum1984 said:
I agree that two way shots happen, but Karl was shooting to make the 4 and just plain missed, and luckily for him, hooked Earl. That was not a planned two way.

Agreed, the break is lucky or unlucky, but is sure seemed that Europe was way more lucky on the breaks and USA was way more unlucky.
Click to expand...

The only break stat (which AtLarge already has) that I'm including are 9's on the break.

I don't consider breaking and not leaving a shot or leaving a shot are considered good or bad rolls. The only exception (in my opinion) would be if it's hill-hill, and you break dry and leave a direct shot on the one. In cases where someone breaks dry and leaves no shot, the incoming player at least has the options of either playing safe or pushing out.
 
Even Ralf said a coupleof times in the interviews, that the balls were friendly to our team, sometimes, but what made the difference was the unusual amount of errors, that the Euro team made use of...

Regarding the rolls, I think that sometimes the US team seemed to just risked to rely on enforcing rolls and it did not work out too well.
I.e. Rodney Morris very often played very risky position play and went lucky to be able to even continue, but never seemed really forced the balls into a situation, where he was in full control (like playing positin over 4 rails and slow rolled against a ball, that only a few mm further left or right, would have made it impossible to run out afterwards, but he was still left in awkward positions. Sometimes maybe they were just to eager to force a runout.

Another reason for deciding rolls seemed, that the Euros made use of their luck better (They seldom dropped a chance, while the US guys got their own portion of luck but then made mistakes that brought them back into trouble ... )

What happened to the Dennis Hatch from his first cup 2 or 3 years ago??? He used to be a fighter, someone who was able to push the team spirit ...

Anyhow, luck wants to be enforced by skill sometimes ... I had the feeling, that some of the rolls Karl got, were "hoped for" ... Like OK, I'll try something fancy, it may end up lucky on these balls, like one time ,when he kicked two rails to the six ball and it dropped to the center pocket off the seven.
In that situation he had 3 obvious options on how that could work out to his favor: he hits the 7 and it drops, he hits the 7 and the 6 finds its way to the pocket, the 6 ends up close to the center pocket and othing drops, so that the situation is difficult ...
Only danger would have been maybe that the 6 does not hit the 7 and returns to the table center (which would mean a terrible kick for guys on that level)...

I was a little disappointed in the crowd... At least young Mrs Archer jr sometimes got them woken up at times ...


Anyhow great performance of our team! Thanks for a great show (and three nights of way to little sleep)!
 
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