An ethical question

Celophanewrap · May 7, 2014

As most of you know, when you enter the APA Cities (or regional, or Tri Annuals, or your local area team championship) you generally enter at the S/L you qualified at. For instance if a player plays all session as a 3, but manages to jump up to a 4 right before playoffs and the team enters trophy night and win with the player as a 4, then regardless of how poorly the player plays after that, if they qualify the player will enter the championship tournament as a 4 (unless the player manages to jump up to a 5...).

The hypothetical situation is this: The captain (and team) figures that the player in question has got to be close the next skill level, so rather than risk the higher skill level assignment, the captain elects to sit the player in question so they qualify the player at the lower skill level, this player is a staple player and would normally play. Now, this player doesn't play so there is no opportunity to pad innings or miss shots intentionally, there are other players at a similar skill level and it doesn't hurt the team, they go on to qualify.
Would you consider this effective strategy or skill level management, or would it be sandbagging?

Spimp13 · May 7, 2014

Celophanewrap said:
Would you consider this effective strategy or skill level management, or would it be sandbagging?

yes
yes
and yes (assuming they are playing one level below their ability)

It happens all the time in all the APA leagues around the country.

itsfroze · May 7, 2014

If a captain sits a player out so they don't go up I would say that is strategy.

If a player plays and shoots below their potential on purpose that would be sandbagging. My opinion.

Ken_4fun · May 7, 2014

itsfroze said:
If a captain sits a player out so they don't go up I would say that is strategy.

If a player plays and shoots below their potential on purpose that would be sandbagging. My opinion.

I agree.

That is just smart, doing otherwise would just show how stupid someone is, not that they are ethical.

I have no problem with sandbagging either, but it isn't ethical. Before someone gets their panties in a bunch, we all make those kinds of decisions and judgments. All of us wouldn't kill, (or maybe just a small number), but we have all gone over the speed limit, or rolled through a stop sign. All of those are laws, but because we all use judgment of the importance, some we follow and some we ignore. I look at sandbagging similar to rolling through a stop sign....not that big of deal.

Ken

Celophanewrap · May 7, 2014

Spimp13 said:
yes
yes
and yes (assuming they are playing one level below their ability)

It happens all the time in all the APA leagues around the country.

I think we have all had periods where we show flashes of brilliance or you play out of your mind for a time, but that runs out and you return to normal level of play. The trick is elevating you game and learning to keep it elevated to the next level consistently. I've played with players that rat balls in for a couple of weeks but then things return to normal and they can't throw it in the ocean if they were on a boat. Maybe for that couple of weeks they could have easily been rated higher, but normally, their consistent level of play is a step or two below.

buckshotshoey · May 7, 2014

itsfroze said:
If a captain sits a player out so they don't go up I would say that is strategy.

If a player plays and shoots below their potential on purpose that would be sandbagging. My opinion.

Ditto. When my team went to Vegas in 08, my captain did tbe opposite. When we won the qualifier I was a 3. We were all playing well. We were afraid more then one of us might be raised at Vegas. So he told our league operator to raise me to a 4. That is also strategy.

vvsels · May 7, 2014

I would have to say its strategy and skill level management.

CaptainDidactic · May 7, 2014

Sandbagging?

What I do is play my best all season, but 8 weeks prior to our big event, the state tournament, I practice as much as possible on my weaknesses and my strengths as to be at the highest level of play I can muster.

This usually means I am playing above my current handicap level at State tourney time.

toddgator · May 7, 2014

All APA teams are put in this situation at one point or another. Sitting someone isn't sandbagging, it's a smart coaching decision. Sandbagging by a player during a match is a completely different situation. There's no deception involved in not playing someone as far as I see it so why should that be considered unethical?

CreeDo · May 7, 2014

Well, in a nutshell, you suspect your teammate plays better than his rank.
But you could be wrong. After all, if he was definitely better than his rank,
the APA rating system should have moved him up by now.

It's not against the rules or immoral to play someone who you think
plays better than his rating, because that's just an opinion.
It's an opinion you hear all the time from the losing team

As long as nobody's padding innings, it's not sandbagging.
Experience is part of the reason a player can advance. If you deny
your teammate that experience, then arguably he lacks that tiny
extra bit of experience needed to truly DESERVE the higher rank.

smenzel · May 7, 2014

Celophanewrap said:
As most of you know, when you enter the APA Cities (or regional, or Tri Annuals, or your local area team championship) you generally enter at the S/L you qualified at.

Just to be a little more technically correct, you enter LTC as the higher of your current SL or your SL when your team qualified. This is to keep a team from qualifying in summer or fall and then lowering a player's skill level before LTC.

Also, in order to participate in LTC (same as Nationals), the captain must fill out a form that each player signs listing all members of the team and their appropriate skill level. As with Nationals, there should be some form of disqualification if there's too much upward movement during LTC. Unfortunately, not all LOs follow this last part very closely.

As the captain, I know my players well and have been preparing them for their next skill level throughout the year (or longer). I have no problem moving a player up who I feel is on the cusp of (ready for) the next level.

smenzel · May 7, 2014

Celophanewrap said:
Would you consider this effective strategy or skill level management, or would it be sandbagging?

And to answer the original question, sitting a player out for a week or three is team management.

nobcitypool · May 7, 2014

itsfroze said:
If a captain sits a player out so they don't go up I would say that is strategy.

If a player plays and shoots below their potential on purpose that would be sandbagging. My opinion.

I agree 100%.

fireball · May 7, 2014

nobcitypool said:
I agree 100%.

me too.

For my ethics...I don't have issue with this scenerio. It really isn't cheating the rating system and the rating system may be a bit flawed (in my view) anyway. I am also in the I play league to have fun and socialize. winning is just frosting

Celophanewrap · May 7, 2014

smenzel said:
Just to be a little more technically correct, you enter LTC as the higher of your current SL or your SL when your team qualified. This is to keep a team from qualifying in summer or fall and then lowering a player's skill level before LTC.

Also, in order to participate in LTC (same as Nationals), the captain must fill out a form that each player signs listing all members of the team and their appropriate skill level. As with Nationals, there should be some form of disqualification if there's too much upward movement during LTC. Unfortunately, not all LOs follow this last part very closely.

As the captain, I know my players well and have been preparing them for their next skill level throughout the year (or longer). I have no problem moving a player up who I feel is on the cusp of (ready for) the next level.

You're right, I just figured that everyone knew that.
How long have you been an APA player / captain?
Are you quick to advance a players S/L just before the LTC regardless of the effect it may have on the team? Or as a captain do you weigh chemistry as well as the potential effect on the team and the 23 rule?

smenzel · May 8, 2014

Celophanewrap said:
You're right, I just figured that everyone knew that.
How long have you been an APA player / captain?
Are you quick to advance a players S/L just before the LTC regardless of the effect it may have on the team? Or as a captain do you weigh chemistry as well as the potential effect on the team and the 23 rule?

I've been a captain for six or eight years now.

Forgive me for saying this but I think your focus is entirely too narrow. It sounds like you just realized that this might be a problem and are wondering what to do. I look at this all year long.

I work with my players the entire year and know which players are close to moving up. It's not rocket science. At first I tried some rather silly math that was a lot of effort and not particularly accurate. Now I just kind of know. At the beginning of the session, I evaluate my players, ensure that we'll be able to field a team with any possible SL increases and begin (continue) working with the players to ensure that they're ready for their new SL.

By the time Tri-Cups and LTC rolls around, everyone is rock solid in their SL. At least that's the goal. It doesn't always work as planned.

An ethical question

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