Preparation Is Half The Battle

Pidge · Jun 7, 2014

How do you get through to someone preparation is half the battle in an 8 ball match? I was approached by a guy at the pool hall, we were both playing by our selves and he asked if we could have a few games. This was a few years ago and now we are very good friends but ever since that first game we played he can't grasp that he has to think ahead, no matter what if he is going to improve. He has listened to what I've said when he's asked about his stance and stroke, and now he has a nice smooth stroke.

Trying to get him to listen with regards to position, patterns, choosing the correct set of balls after the break and planning ahead is another story though. He is more focused on potting...and he is an excellent potter. He has an eye for a pot I just don't have, he doesn't think about it but just hits it, I'm not sure how he aims but its always worked for him so I've never touched on the subject. For someone who has such good potting ability and stroke he rarely runs out past 6 balls, and its a shame. He has real potential, and he's only 19. After the break he doesn't think, and always goes for the easiest shot and tried clearing up those balls even though they are completely screwed for a run out. I've stopped him countless times and said right, don't choose spots, stripes are set for a run out so this is what were going to do. I'll then go from the black ball, and work backwards with him. What do you know, he normally runs out. I've done this hundreds of times with him, and when I don't he reverts back to old habits and takes the wrong option from the start, pots up, gets hooked and makes the table less cluttered for me to work through. I just don't get it. How is he still not planning ahead after so long?

If anyone can help me out with getting through to him it would be a massive help

TheThaiger · Jun 7, 2014

I can't believe you play 8 ball.

nobcitypool · Jun 7, 2014

Pidge, he doesn't have any problems a few years of maturity won't fix. You are passionate about the game. I'm guessing this young man simply enjoys the game and fun for him is putting balls without a lot of analysis. It may be that his understanding of the tangent line and cb control is fairly limited when compared to his ball potting ability so he avoids the frustration. All that probably seems silly to you but it is very real to him.

Find the root cause of his avoidance, then and only then will you be able to address the problem.

FranCrimi · Jun 7, 2014

Pidge said:
How do you get through to someone preparation is half the battle in an 8 ball match? I was approached by a guy at the pool hall, we were both playing by our selves and he asked if we could have a few games. This was a few years ago and now we are very good friends but ever since that first game we played he can't grasp that he has to think ahead, no matter what if he is going to improve. He has listened to what I've said when he's asked about his stance and stroke, and now he has a nice smooth stroke.

Trying to get him to listen with regards to position, patterns, choosing the correct set of balls after the break and planning ahead is another story though. He is more focused on potting...and he is an excellent potter. He has an eye for a pot I just don't have, he doesn't think about it but just hits it, I'm not sure how he aims but its always worked for him so I've never touched on the subject. For someone who has such good potting ability and stroke he rarely runs out past 6 balls, and its a shame. He has real potential, and he's only 19. After the break he doesn't think, and always goes for the easiest shot and tried clearing up those balls even though they are completely screwed for a run out. I've stopped him countless times and said right, don't choose spots, stripes are set for a run out so this is what were going to do. I'll then go from the black ball, and work backwards with him. What do you know, he normally runs out. I've done this hundreds of times with him, and when I don't he reverts back to old habits and takes the wrong option from the start, pots up, gets hooked and makes the table less cluttered for me to work through. I just don't get it. How is he still not planning ahead after so long?

If anyone can help me out with getting through to him it would be a massive help

The best thing you can do with a player like that is to stop trying to help him and just keep beating him. He needs to come around on his own. He will when he gets tired of losing.

macguy · Jun 7, 2014

Pidge said:
How do you get through to someone preparation is half the battle in an 8 ball match? I was approached by a guy at the pool hall, we were both playing by our selves and he asked if we could have a few games. This was a few years ago and now we are very good friends but ever since that first game we played he can't grasp that he has to think ahead, no matter what if he is going to improve. He has listened to what I've said when he's asked about his stance and stroke, and now he has a nice smooth stroke.

Trying to get him to listen with regards to position, patterns, choosing the correct set of balls after the break and planning ahead is another story though. He is more focused on potting...and he is an excellent potter. He has an eye for a pot I just don't have, he doesn't think about it but just hits it, I'm not sure how he aims but its always worked for him so I've never touched on the subject. For someone who has such good potting ability and stroke he rarely runs out past 6 balls, and its a shame. He has real potential, and he's only 19. After the break he doesn't think, and always goes for the easiest shot and tried clearing up those balls even though they are completely screwed for a run out. I've stopped him countless times and said right, don't choose spots, stripes are set for a run out so this is what were going to do. I'll then go from the black ball, and work backwards with him. What do you know, he normally runs out. I've done this hundreds of times with him, and when I don't he reverts back to old habits and takes the wrong option from the start, pots up, gets hooked and makes the table less cluttered for me to work through. I just don't get it. How is he still not planning ahead after so long?

If anyone can help me out with getting through to him it would be a massive help

Unless he has something mentally wrong with him, he probably doesn't care. Not everyone lives and dies over their pool game. He doesn't care so why should you.

gregcantrall · Jun 7, 2014

FranCrimi said:
The best thing you can do with a player like that is to stop trying to help him and just keep beating him. He needs to come around on his own. He will when he gets tired of losing.

It helps if you are playing for stakes also. That was some of my earliest eight ball lessons was playing an old man cheap. Got tired of clearing the table so he had an easy run out and then giving him $2 as well.:thumbup:

macguy · Jun 7, 2014

FranCrimi said:
The best thing you can do with a player like that is to stop trying to help him and just keep beating him. He needs to come around on his own. He will when he gets tired of losing.

That is the correct approach. Even a doctor will only give you advice. If after your cancer treatments you still continue to smoke he is not coming to your house and babysit you. He can give suggestions and encouragement but beyond that he will have to divorce himself from you and just let you do as you please.

Pidge · Jun 7, 2014

macguy said:
Unless he has something mentally wrong with him, he probably doesn't care. Not everyone lives and dies over their pool game. He doesn't care so why should you.

He does care. He absolutely hates losing. Because we play most days he doesn't mind that much against me, but anyone else and he gets in a mood with himself.

To others suggesting to play for money, he wont. Against me he's always said he'd rather pay me for help than pay me to beat him. And whilst the help is there for free, he isn't going to gamble.

I've played him for the past god knows how long, some nights we can put in 50 games and he might win 5 on a good night. I thought he'd be massively pissed off by now, but it seems he only gets pissed off if he doesn't win a game. Winning 1 seems to be enough foe him. He'll question why I chose a set of balls over the other, why I shot them the way I did, why I played safe on a particular shot so it seems to me he is very inquisitive and wants to improve but leaving him to his own train of thought its like everything I've said to him hasn't registered in his brain.

sfleinen · Jun 7, 2014

nobcitypool said:
Pidge, he doesn't have any problems a few years of maturity won't fix. You are passionate about the game. I'm guessing this young man simply enjoys the game and fun for him is putting balls without a lot of analysis. It may be that his understanding of the tangent line and cb control is fairly limited when compared to his ball potting ability so he avoids the frustration. All that probably seems silly to you but it is very real to him.

Find the root cause of his avoidance, then and only then will you be able to address the problem.

I like this answer, and I think nob is right. There was a time very long ago (in my teens) when I merely enjoyed the "sensation" of potting balls. It didn't matter the rhyme or order; as long as I potted balls -- and "extra points" would be scored mentally for extremely difficult pots -- I was content. Sure, I would love winning the game, but for me, if I can walk away from the table and say, "man, I really loved how I potted that difficult 11-ball," I was happy.

Fast forward a couple years when I was in the military, playing guys for beers (and the occasional 10- or 20-spot), and I suddenly realized that potting wasn't everything -- I had to go the extra step. I didn't like being the "free beer tap." It was then I learned how to pay attention to my patterns, and play patterns to win. (Incidentally, it was also the time I learned [and caught the love for] straight pool, when I'd run into an older gentleman who taught me the game.)

So I'd say a combination of what Fran Crimi and nobcitypool say:

1. Keep beating the guy until he gets tired of it.
2. Make him become the "free beer tap."
3. Maybe introduce him to straight pool, if you can. You didn't say what type of tables you were playing on -- whether they were rent-for-time or coin-operated -- but if the former, it might be a good thing to introduce him to this game, so he's not so fixated on "finding shots to pot around obstacle balls" (which is usually not a problem in 14.1), and he'll learn to pay attention to patterns, if he's to continue enjoying the sensation of potting. Plus, he'll learn very quickly from you that if he misses, he's not going to get back to the table "on the next rack" as may be the case in 8-ball. With you, if he misses, he's going to be sitting for a very long time.

Just a couple suggestions that I hope help,
-Sean

lfigueroa · Jun 7, 2014

Pidge said:
How do you get through to someone preparation is half the battle in an 8 ball match? I was approached by a guy at the pool hall, we were both playing by our selves and he asked if we could have a few games. This was a few years ago and now we are very good friends but ever since that first game we played he can't grasp that he has to think ahead, no matter what if he is going to improve. He has listened to what I've said when he's asked about his stance and stroke, and now he has a nice smooth stroke.

Trying to get him to listen with regards to position, patterns, choosing the correct set of balls after the break and planning ahead is another story though. He is more focused on potting...and he is an excellent potter. He has an eye for a pot I just don't have, he doesn't think about it but just hits it, I'm not sure how he aims but its always worked for him so I've never touched on the subject. For someone who has such good potting ability and stroke he rarely runs out past 6 balls, and its a shame. He has real potential, and he's only 19. After the break he doesn't think, and always goes for the easiest shot and tried clearing up those balls even though they are completely screwed for a run out. I've stopped him countless times and said right, don't choose spots, stripes are set for a run out so this is what were going to do. I'll then go from the black ball, and work backwards with him. What do you know, he normally runs out. I've done this hundreds of times with him, and when I don't he reverts back to old habits and takes the wrong option from the start, pots up, gets hooked and makes the table less cluttered for me to work through. I just don't get it. How is he still not planning ahead after so long?

If anyone can help me out with getting through to him it would be a massive help

"The will to win is not nearly so important as the will to prepare to win."
Vince Lombardi

If he doesn't get it, he doesn't get it.

Lou Figueroa

Pidge · Jun 7, 2014

sfleinen said:
I like this answer, and I think nob is right. There was a time very long ago (in my teens) when I merely enjoyed the "sensation" of potting balls. It didn't matter the rhyme or order; as long as I potted balls -- and "extra points" would be scored mentally for extremely difficult pots -- I was content. Sure, I would love winning the game, but for me, if I can walk away from the table and say, "man, I really loved how I potted that difficult 11-ball," I was happy.

Fast forward a couple years when I was in the military, playing guys for beers (and the occasional 10- or 20-spot), and I suddenly realized that potting wasn't everything -- I had to go the extra step. I didn't like being the "free beer tap." It was then I learned how to pay attention to my patterns, and play patterns to win. (Incidentally, it was also the time I learned [and caught the love for] straight pool, when I'd run into an older gentleman who taught me the game.)

So I'd say a combination of what Fran Crimi and nobcitypool say:

1. Keep beating the guy until he gets tired of it.
2. Make him become the "free beer tap."
3. Maybe introduce him to straight pool, if you can. You didn't say what type of tables you were playing on -- whether they were rent-for-time or coin-operated -- but if the former, it might be a good thing to introduce him to this game, so he's not so fixated on "finding shots to pot around obstacle balls" (which is usually not a problem in 14.1), and he'll learn to pay attention to patterns, if he's to continue enjoying the sensation of potting. Plus, he'll learn very quickly from you that if he misses, he's not going to get back to the table "on the next rack" as may be the case in 8-ball. With you, if he misses, he's going to be sitting for a very long time.

Just a couple suggestions that I hope help,
-Sean

Thanks for the advice

Introducing him to 14.1 is an excellent idea! Back when I was starting out in snooker I would get sick and tired of coming to the table for 2 minutes then missing and not getting another shot for 15 minutes. I hates it so much I got lessons and didn't play anyone until I could compete. The wait can be amplified to over an hour in straight pool and I don't care who you are, it sucks to be sat down watching that long.

Cheers!

FranCrimi · Jun 7, 2014

Pidge said:
He does care. He absolutely hates losing. Because we play most days he doesn't mind that much against me, but anyone else and he gets in a mood with himself.

To others suggesting to play for money, he wont. Against me he's always said he'd rather pay me for help than pay me to beat him. And whilst the help is there for free, he isn't going to gamble.

I've played him for the past god knows how long, some nights we can put in 50 games and he might win 5 on a good night. I thought he'd be massively pissed off by now, but it seems he only gets pissed off if he doesn't win a game. Winning 1 seems to be enough foe him. He'll question why I chose a set of balls over the other, why I shot them the way I did, why I played safe on a particular shot so it seems to me he is very inquisitive and wants to improve but leaving him to his own train of thought its like everything I've said to him hasn't registered in his brain.

Sounds like he's too comfortable with you. Maybe you should cut him loose for awhile. He may learn to appreciate you and your advice more once it's not so easily accessible.

gregcantrall · Jun 7, 2014

Pidge said:
To others suggesting to play for money, he wont. Against me he's always said he'd rather pay me for help than pay me to beat him. And whilst the help is there for free, he isn't going to gamble.

I do not consider $2 a game gambling. I considered it paying for lessons, by the game.:thumbup:

macguy · Jun 7, 2014

Pidge said:
He does care. He absolutely hates losing. Because we play most days he doesn't mind that much against me, but anyone else and he gets in a mood with himself.

To others suggesting to play for money, he wont. Against me he's always said he'd rather pay me for help than pay me to beat him. And whilst the help is there for free, he isn't going to gamble.

I've played him for the past god knows how long, some nights we can put in 50 games and he might win 5 on a good night. I thought he'd be massively pissed off by now, but it seems he only gets pissed off if he doesn't win a game. Winning 1 seems to be enough foe him. He'll question why I chose a set of balls over the other, why I shot them the way I did, why I played safe on a particular shot so it seems to me he is very inquisitive and wants to improve but leaving him to his own train of thought its like everything I've said to him hasn't registered in his brain.

Your first line in your post contradicts the rest of your post. You say he cares then describe a guy who could care less and that is fine. What you mistake for caring is just his wishful thinking that he played better. He is never going to do the work or try to learn because it s no important to him. If it was, you could not stop him from asking questions. He is not you, so forget about it.

I found the same thing in golf when I played for about a year. I took a few lessons, got some clubs and went out with friends. It was horrible if they weren't complaining about their own play they were criticizing my play. They didn't seem to understand someone who doesn't live and die with every shot. I finally stopped going out with them and ultimately quit. It was way too slow for me and not really much fun.

Pidge · Jun 7, 2014

You might be right. There are 2 types of pool players; those that play someone better than them and think I wish I was that good or those that think I will be that good one day and put the effort in to do so. It may be he is the first type of player.

macguy · Jun 7, 2014

Pidge said:
You might be right. There are 2 types of pool players; those that play someone better than them and think I wish I was that good or those that think I will be that good one day and put the effort in to do so. It may be he is the first type of player.

We are talking about a silly pool game here but in life this is one of the biggest wedges between parents and children. In many cases they can't understand that their values may not be the same as their children's. It can be a constant source of conflict even becoming serious as they try to impose their will. A step back and objective attempt to see things from the other persons perspective can help. Tell you the truth, ask him if being a better player means anything to him, he may be honest with you.

I used to see it in the pool room all the time. I see players come in three or four times a week and I can see in like 1 hour I could fix a lot of what is wrong with their play. They would play better and I am sure have more fun playing. I always minded my own business though unless they asked.

The only thing I would do if I saw them come in by themselves is I may ask if they want someone to practice with. I am not going to give them a lesson but they will pick up something, maybe even get the nerve to ask a question. It almost has to be subliminal or by osmosis.

Surprisingly they always get a little better right away. I had done this with guys who came in regular with a group of friends. It was not long before their friends could not play with them anymore. Once someone starts to improve they usually want to improve more and depending on how much, will determine how much they are willing to put in to get results. All people are different.

center pocket · Jun 7, 2014

I struggled with having the patience to play patterns for long time as well. That being said I do want to run 100s one day and only play straight pool now. It's hard though because bring in a good rhythm of just pocketing balls feels so good.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

CJ Wiley · Jun 7, 2014

Playing carom games is what made Efren the players he is today.

The root of his issue may be his ability to carom effectively. Playing carom games is what made Efren the players he is today......and I've utilized this "secret" myself. Cue ball control will allow you to make mistakes and still run the table....and it does take practice on caroms specifically.

'The Carom Game is the Teacher'

Pidge said:
How do you get through to someone preparation is half the battle in an 8 ball match? I was approached by a guy at the pool hall, we were both playing by our selves and he asked if we could have a few games. This was a few years ago and now we are very good friends but ever since that first game we played he can't grasp that he has to think ahead, no matter what if he is going to improve. He has listened to what I've said when he's asked about his stance and stroke, and now he has a nice smooth stroke.

Trying to get him to listen with regards to position, patterns, choosing the correct set of balls after the break and planning ahead is another story though. He is more focused on potting...and he is an excellent potter. He has an eye for a pot I just don't have, he doesn't think about it but just hits it, I'm not sure how he aims but its always worked for him so I've never touched on the subject. For someone who has such good potting ability and stroke he rarely runs out past 6 balls, and its a shame. He has real potential, and he's only 19. After the break he doesn't think, and always goes for the easiest shot and tried clearing up those balls even though they are completely screwed for a run out. I've stopped him countless times and said right, don't choose spots, stripes are set for a run out so this is what were going to do. I'll then go from the black ball, and work backwards with him. What do you know, he normally runs out. I've done this hundreds of times with him, and when I don't he reverts back to old habits and takes the wrong option from the start, pots up, gets hooked and makes the table less cluttered for me to work through. I just don't get it. How is he still not planning ahead after so long?

If anyone can help me out with getting through to him it would be a massive help

Zphix · Jun 7, 2014

Pidge,

Ironically enough, I was in the same situation just a few months ago. I'm 19 playing pool, potting my balls, not worrying about position and shooting the shots as they lay.

But, after playing with better opponents, and being introduced to people who could actually teach me and show me the ropes I've been taking playing position a hell of a lot more seriously and numerous reputable people have told me that within the span of a year I should be a monster if I keep practicing position, etc.

I'm at a plateau stage where my mind and body want to do two different things so sometimes I'll miss easy shots because I'm focusing on position, etc.

Anyhow, it takes a good teacher to show him the ropes, but he has to want to get better, ScottK told me the other night that I am:

-Eager to learn
-Want to practice
-Want to get better <-- may not be this one but it's a combination of three things

and that without all of these 3 things you won't reach your max potential.

If you're friend doesn't want to be able to run out and just enjoys shooting balls then he likely won't change unless you approach him from that angle. But, if your friend has a goal in pool (like wanting to be the best, wanting to be able to B&R more, wanting to be a world beater, etc), then use that angle to get it through to him.

I wasn't able to teach my older sister to play pool until I figured out why she plays, and what her goal in playing is - then she started to listen to me.

So, understand his goal in playing pool and use that as your angle of attack.

-Richard

Pidge · Jun 8, 2014

Zphix said:
Pidge,

Ironically enough, I was in the same situation just a few months ago. I'm 19 playing pool, potting my balls, not worrying about position and shooting the shots as they lay.

But, after playing with better opponents, and being introduced to people who could actually teach me and show me the ropes I've been taking playing position a hell of a lot more seriously and numerous reputable people have told me that within the span of a year I should be a monster if I keep practicing position, etc.

I'm at a plateau stage where my mind and body want to do two different things so sometimes I'll miss easy shots because I'm focusing on position, etc.

Anyhow, it takes a good teacher to show him the ropes, but he has to want to get better, ScottK told me the other night that I am:

-Eager to learn
-Want to practice
-Want to get better <-- may not be this one but it's a combination of three things

and that without all of these 3 things you won't reach your max potential.

If you're friend doesn't want to be able to run out and just enjoys shooting balls then he likely won't change unless you approach him from that angle. But, if your friend has a goal in pool (like wanting to be the best, wanting to be able to B&R more, wanting to be a world beater, etc), then use that angle to get it through to him.

I wasn't able to teach my older sister to play pool until I figured out why she plays, and what her goal in playing is - then she started to listen to me.

So, understand his goal in playing pool and use that as your angle of attack.

-Richard

This is actually some really solid advice, thanks. We met up and played this morning for a few hours. I asked him why he practices so much, he said to become a better player. He wants to be the best in the area, or at least in his league. He can definitely become the best in his league, as for the area its going to be tough there are some excellent players in Yorkshire.

We played some 14.1 after quickly running through the rules. I thought it was best to leave him to his own devices and didn't bother explaining tactics or patters or where is best to leave your break ball. He actually did pretty decent. He made a run of 28 on his first effort. He made simple pots, simple position and I think being able to go for any ball really helped him. But when I got to the table it was time to teach him a lesson. He was sat in his seat for an hour and 10 minutes and I could see him getting frustrated after 10 minutes but I thought what the hell ill make him suffer and pay attention.

He commented after my break came to an end how I got lucky, how my layouts seem to be a lot easier than his. I explained it may look easier because of the way I go about it. I hardly leave my self a difficult shot because I plan ahead to avoid it. Then we got to talking about picking apart a rack. I showed him where is beat to leave a break ball, why smashing into the rack isn't always the best option and how dealing with nasty looking clusters is better served when you have more balls on the table to give you plenty of options should it not go to plan.

He stepped to the table for his turn and instantly I could see him thinking about it. He was nudging the pack, putting 2 or 3 balls into open play each tome rather than smashing into them and spreading the pack and creating 2 or 3 clusters. He proceeded to run 42! I don't care who you are, 42 on your second ever try at 14.1 is friggin decent. So thanks for all the advice guys.

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