Could you please analyze these 8-ball rules?

Push&Pool · Aug 31, 2014

This is a variant of regional south-eastern European 8-ball rules:
- Racking: 8 goes on the foot spot, other balls are racked in solid-stripe-solid-stripe order starting from the apex ball
- no ball-in-hand
- no requirement for any ball to hit the rail on break or during the game
- no requirement for the cue ball to hit a rail or any other ball (forgot to add this one)
- no shot calling (slop counts)
- Breaking: from kitchen, you take the suit which goes in first, if nothing drops the opponent shoots and the players keep alternating shots until something drops
- you keep shooting as long as you pocket at least one of your balls per shot
- if you pocket your opponent's ball you lose your turn
- if you hit your opponent's ball directly (without touching a rail or one of your balls first) you lose your turn and the opponent decides whether he wants to pocket that ball or not
- if you hit the 8 ball directly you lose the game
- Scratches: after scratch cue ball goes on the head spot and the opponent is not allowed to hit anything from side pocket - head spot - side pocket line to head rail directly
- you need to pocket the 8 in your last pocket (the one where you pocketed your last ball) in order to win
- if at any time you pocket the 8 before you finished up all of your balls, knock it off the table or drop it in the wrong pocket, you lose
- if another ball is pocketed along with the 8 (cue ball or your opponent's ball) you also lose
- once on the 8 ball, failing to touch it 3 times in a row is another way to lose the game
- you lose your turn by knocking any ball off the table
- balls knocked off the table are spotted the closest possible to the central diamond on the head rail
- if the cue ball is knocked off the table, it is treated as a scratch
- if at any time the 8 ball stops at the edge of a pocket which is neither player's last pocket, both players can decide to spot it next to the central diamond on either the head rail or the foot rail

There may be some other rules I've accidentally left out, and if I did I'll add them to the list. I'd like if you could please answer these questions for me:
1. How hard and complicated this version of 8-ball is comparing to 8-ball played by WSR rules?
2. Do these rules favor the stronger or the weaker player and how much do they even the field comparing to No-Conflict 8-ball rules?
3. Is this version more profound strategy-wise (more like chess)?
4. Does it take more or less shooting and CB control skill than the WSR version?
5. Would these rules be a good choice for leagues and tournaments? Do they give enough chances to the weaker player so handicaps wouldn't be necessary?

peter_gunn · Aug 31, 2014

Its strategic game on barbox tables. Lots of variations in rules depending where u play the game. Cue ball is BIG.
Fatboy try the game in Germany. Didnt end well for him

Push&Pool · Aug 31, 2014

Well, since I've played by these rules for 6 years, and I'm planning to stick to this game for quite some time, I'd like to know more about it: where it stands in the wide world of pool, what are its strengths and weaknesses, how widespread it is. Everyone please feel free to share anything you know or think about it

peter_gunn said:
Its strategic game on barbox tables. Lots of variations in rules depending where u play the game. Cue ball is BIG.
Fatboy try the game in Germany. Didnt end well for him

I heard about that... incident. I thought they played in Serbia, but I guess it were only Serbian rules. However, I have to state that the CB is not always that big. On coin-op tables it's a bit heavier so the ball return system could recognize it, but on tables where you pay for table time it's usually the same size and weight as the rest. What Fatboy went up against was much more extreme than what your average game looks like. I've seen conditions similar to those maybe in one place, where they simply stopped caring for the equipment. They threw out the pool table after some time to make room for more tables and chairs. What a pity, I liked that place, actually started playing there :frown:

victorl · Aug 31, 2014

Your rules are interesting and I've seen some similar ones in bars, but a lot of times they lead to arguments and could never be used in a real tournament with good players.

Push&Pool said:
This is a variant of regional south-eastern European 8-ball rules:
- Racking: 8 goes on the foot spot, other balls are racked in solid-stripe-solid-stripe order starting from the apex ball
This will probably lead to an uneven spread since the three corners of the rack will all be solid balls.
- no ball-in-hand
- no requirement for any ball to hit the rail on break or during the game
So it's okay to softly hit the cue ball into the rack on the break?
No rail also makes it too easy to play roll-up safeties.

- no shot calling (slop counts)
- Breaking: from kitchen, you take the suit which goes in first, if nothing drops the opponent shoots and the players keep alternating shots until something drops
What happens when two balls from different groups go in at the same time?
- you keep shooting as long as you pocket at least one of your balls per shot
- if you pocket your opponent's ball you lose your turn
What if you also make one of your balls?
- if you hit your opponent's ball directly (without touching a rail or one of your balls first) you lose your turn and the opponent decides whether he wants to pocket that ball or not
Too complicated. It's very hard to tell if you hit a rail first or not, especially when the object ball is on or near the rail.
- if you hit the 8 ball directly you lose the game
Loss of game penalty is too harsh and can be exploited.
- Scratches: after scratch cue ball goes on the head spot and the opponent is not allowed to hit anything from side pocket - head spot - side pocket line to head rail directly
Too complicated as this is an imaginary line so it's difficult to judge which balls are inside or outside the zone. Restricting placement of the cue ball to the head spot will lead to many situations where it is advantageous to commit intentional fouls.
- you need to pocket the 8 in your last pocket (the one where you pocketed your last ball) in order to win
- if at any time you pocket the 8 before you finished up all of your balls, knock it off the table or drop it in the wrong pocket, you lose
- if another ball is pocketed along with the 8 (cue ball or your opponent's ball) you also lose
- once on the 8 ball, failing to touch it 3 times in a row is another way to lose the game
- you lose your turn by knocking any ball off the table
- balls knocked off the table are spotted the closest possible to the central diamond on the head rail
- if the cue ball is knocked off the table, it is treated as a scratch
- if at any time the 8 ball stops at the edge of a pocket which is neither player's last pocket, both players can decide to spot it next to the central diamond on either the head rail or the foot rail
How far from the pocket is the "edge" of a pocket? This could definitely lead to an argument if the ball is near my pocket and my opponent wants to move it.

Overall, these rules make the game harder for weaker players and the better player would almost always win because of the last pocket rule, and because it makes it too easy for better players to play safe and manipulate the balls by doing things like taking intentional fouls.

krupa · Aug 31, 2014

I would never play this game.

Push&Pool said:
This is a variant of regional south-eastern European 8-ball rules:
- Racking: 8 goes on the foot spot, other balls are racked in solid-stripe-solid-stripe order starting from the apex ball

This seems like micro-management to me but is a hassle more than anything.

- no ball-in-hand
- no requirement for any ball to hit the rail on break or during the game

I don't like this because it makes safety play much easier and doesn't sufficiently punish a player for missing a ball.

- if you pocket your opponent's ball you lose your turn

Even if you pocket one of your own?

- if you hit your opponent's ball directly (without touching a rail or one of your balls first) you lose your turn and the opponent decides whether he wants to pocket that ball or not

I don't understand this at all. Does the opponent literally get to just drop the ball in the pocket?

- if you hit the 8 ball directly you lose the game

Ridiculous.

- Scratches: after scratch cue ball goes on the head spot and the opponent is not allowed to hit anything from side pocket - head spot - side pocket line to head rail directly

What happens if the head spot is blocked by a ball? What's this strange line you're describing? Is it just the "kitchen"?

- you need to pocket the 8 in your last pocket (the one where you pocketed your last ball) in order to win

Last-pocket 8-ball is interesting, though I never play it.

- if another ball is pocketed along with the 8 (cue ball or your opponent's ball) you also lose

I don't understand why my opponents balls are so sacred.

- once on the 8 ball, failing to touch it 3 times in a row is another way to lose the game

Silly.

- balls knocked off the table are spotted the closest possible to the central diamond on the head rail

You "spot" a ball by putting it on the rail? Sounds like an easy way to hook your opponent.

1. How hard and complicated this version of 8-ball is comparing to 8-ball played by WSR rules?

Too complicated and has a lot of strange exceptions to the rules.

2. Do these rules favor the stronger or the weaker player and how much do they even the field comparing to No-Conflict 8-ball rules?

The better player always has the advantage (by definition).

3. Is this version more profound strategy-wise (more like chess)?

If you think this version is more profound than WSR, then I wonder if you understand the strategy in WSR.

4. Does it take more or less shooting and CB control skill than the WSR version?

Slop is always easier.

5. Would these rules be a good choice for leagues and tournaments?

Absolutely not.

do they give enough chances to the weaker player so handicaps wouldn't be necessary?

No.

Straightpool_99 · Aug 31, 2014

................

Push&Pool · Sep 1, 2014

OK, I'll do my best to answer you all.

- Racking: 8 goes on the foot spot, other balls are racked in solid-stripe-solid-stripe order starting from the apex ball

The purpose of this rule is to keep the balls mixed up. It's harder to run out when the table is full of mixed clusters. I agree the flaw of this rule is that the corner balls always belong to the same group, but I don't remember it ever being a game-deciding factor.

- no ball-in-hand

I don't know for certain why BiH doesn't exist here. I can only guess it's because it would allow too much maneuverability and end the game sooner. This game is about maneuvering out of tough situations, so picking the cue ball with your hand would make it too simple.

- no requirement for any ball to hit the rail on break or during the game

This rule is here to allow you freedom of moving the balls around the playing surface the way you want and playing pretty much any safety you can think of. It sounds easier that it is. Regarding the soft break, I've seen the rack broken poorly either due to lack of power (usually novice players) or badly executed break shot. But I don't remember seeing anyone break it softly on purpose. Everybody tries to pocket something on the break to stay at the table. Giving the opportunity to your opponent to break the rack sounds like a bad strategy.

- no requirement for the cue ball to hit a rail or any other ball (forgot to add this one)

Well, in theory you don't need to hit anything with the cue ball. It's treated as any other miss or safety. But players don't usually do that. Instead they try to hit one of their balls even when executing a safety. It's like an unwritten rule of fair play. However, if you miss and fail to touch anything by accident there's no punishment except loss of turn.

- no shot calling (slop counts)

I personally have mixed feelings about his rule. It annoys me when I shoot at something, miss and drop something else accidentally. But what I think makes the game more interesting and complicated is the fact you can shoot hard with the intention of pocketing something if you miss, or when you're left without good shot or safety options, you can break up a cluster of your balls as a last desperate action and hope something drops.

- Breaking: from kitchen, you take the suit which goes in first, if nothing drops the opponent shoots and the players keep alternating shots until something drops

If balls of both groups go in nearly at the same time, then you look at the ball return system and see which one arrived first. That's your suit. I haven't witnessed any fights over this rule.

- you keep shooting as long as you pocket at least one of your balls per shot

OK, this one is obvious.

- if you pocket your opponent's ball you lose your turn

Yes, you lose your turn even if you pocket your own ball. Don't ask me why, it's just the way the game is played in this place we visit several times a week. Its purpose is probably to make you think more before executing a certain shot. When we play elsewhere, we play the version where you don't lose your turn as long as you keep dropping your balls, no matter if the opponent's ball fall in or not.

- if you hit your opponent's ball directly (without touching a rail or one of your balls first) you lose your turn and the opponent decides whether he wants to pocket that ball or not

Yes, the opponent can literally pick up his ball with his hand and drop it in a pocket. But if he finds that ball useful for any reason, he can also leave it there. Sure, sometimes it's hard to tell if the ball was hit directly or not, so players mostly don't react unless it's obvious.

- if you hit the 8 ball directly you lose the game

That's how it is. It surely is harsh, but in our game the 8 ball is treated with fear and respect, so if you're unsure if you're going to touch it or not, you don't play that shot. I learned it the hard way.

- Scratches: after scratch cue ball goes on the head spot and the opponent is not allowed to hit anything from side pocket - head spot - side pocket line to head rail directly

For you to understand this, you should first know that scratches are not treated just as fouls in our game. They have a major strategic significance and are a part of the game. Intentional scratches are an important defensive move. When scratch happens, it can end worse for the opponent than for the person who scratched. What we don't do is shoot the cue ball in a pocket directly on purpose, only after touching another ball or at least a rail. If it happens accidentally it's OK, but people almost never exploit this.

Also, the line I'm talking about is an imaginary V-shaped line going from one side pocket to the head spot, and then to the other side pocket. It's easy to decide which balls can be hit legally because your cue isn't allowed to pass over the center of either corner pockets when shooting.

- you need to pocket the 8 in your last pocket (the one where you pocketed your last ball) in order to win

This is a standard last pocket 8-ball rule.

- if at any time you pocket the 8 before you finished up all of your balls, knock it off the table or drop it in the wrong pocket, you lose

Another common rule.

- if another ball is pocketed along with the 8 (cue ball or your opponent's ball) you also lose

In this bar where the majority of our city's pool scene plays you lose the game even if you pocket your opponent's ball, not only if you scratch. When we play elsewhere, the opponent's balls don't matter.

- once on the 8 ball, failing to touch it 3 times in a row is another way to lose the game

Forces you to move the 8 around and go for your pocket, not just play safeties without touching it and waiting for your opponent to make a mistake.

- you lose your turn by knocking any ball off the table

Obviously.

- balls knocked off the table are spotted the closest possible to the central diamond on the head rail

It's just so they can be moved out of the way of the balls in play, and not get pocketed just like that.

- if the cue ball is knocked off the table, it is treated as a scratch

This one is clear

- if at any time the 8 ball stops at the edge of a pocket which is neither player's last pocket, both players can decide to spot it next to the central diamond on either the head rail or the foot rail

I said neither player's last pocket. Also, this can be performed only when the cue ball is obviously hanging on the edge and it's game over if either player tries to shoot it out of that position, and both players have to mutually agree to do this.

1. How hard and complicated this version of 8-ball is comparing to 8-ball played by WSR rules?

I meant which game is more difficult overall, which one is tougher to win and which one generally takes more capability and skill.

2. Do these rules favor the stronger or the weaker player and how much do they even the field comparing to No-Conflict 8-ball rules?

What I wanted to ask is do these rules level the playing field and give more chances to the weaker player, or do they increase the gap even further?

3. Is this version more profound strategy-wise (more like chess)?

So you're saying that the strategy part in this game is simpler than in the regular WSR version?

4. Does it take more or less shooting and CB control skill than the WSR version?

On one side there are simple shots with no requirements, on the other are challenging defensive situations without the help of BiH. When you take all that into account, which version asks for a better shooter?

5. Would these rules be a good choice for leagues and tournaments? do they give enough chances to the weaker player so handicaps wouldn't be necessary?

So the games would take too long. Maybe, since I guess these rules partially developed specifically to make the game longer, because it's usually played on coin-op tables. Even fairly good players often get 7-8 innings each, or more.

Push&Pool · Sep 1, 2014

And also, would you like to try this game out yourselves?

Could you please analyze these 8-ball rules?

Push&Pool

Professional Banger

peter_gunn

])3a]) s']['rok3

Push&Pool

Professional Banger

victorl

Where'd my stroke go?

krupa

The Dream Operator

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls

Push&Pool

Professional Banger

Push&Pool

Professional Banger