Looking for feedback on the Outsville Ki-Tech softs...

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Would like to hear from anyone who has had the soft installed... They seem to be a nightmare for cue repairmen the first time they do them...

Joe Blackburn cusses them pretty good... They require a sharp bit as they hate heat and will refuse to cut with a dull blade or chisel....

I am considering including a new carbide utility blade with the purchase of any soft.. I can buy the blades in bulk so 40 cents is not a bad invetment on my part to cut down some of the destroyed tips we have had from dull bits that we make up..... Since we don't get feedback from everyone I am posting a picture of a proper installaton... IF you had a soft installed and it was fuzzy please let me know so I can decide whether the blade inclusion would be worth the effort...

Ki-Tech Soft Install.jpg

Thanks,

Chris
 

Blue Hog ridr

World Famous Fisherman.
Silver Member
Just put a Soft on the Meucci last night Chris. I will probably do a small tourney this Sat, so looking forward to playing with it.

As far as install went, I also use a Carbide Tipped blade. It cut approx the same as an Elk Master, Triangle or any single layer tip that is Chrome Tanned, I found.

I use a carbide tool bit to take it down as close to the ferrule as possible and finish with a blade.

I also use a liberal amount of water on the tip of my finger until I feel I should start cutting.

It did take a tad longer than other tips but I just went slow at it, angling the blade as usual and not overly forcing it.

Little at a time, cause I know one can accordion a tip by heat and too much force.

Stanleys and Irwin up here are pricey. If I remember, it cost me approx $30 for 50 Stanley blades. I can usually get 6 good cuts from one blade.
I mark the blade and do 3 on each side.

6 is pushing it sometimes. I drop em into a storage container after the tips and are more than sharp enuff for other jobs around the house.

If you can get them for 40 cents bulk, that is pretty decent.
 
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pacemonster

"Billiard" Mike
Silver Member
Hey Chris. I bought a bunch of Ki-Techs from you at the US OPEN. I had Joe Blackburn put on 2 softs, 1 medium, and 1 of your break tips. I talked to Joe the whole time he was putting them on. Love talking to that guy every year at the OPEN. Anyways, yeah he was saying something about having to use a new blade every time he puts one on. He wasn't really complaining. Not to me anyways. I think he just liked having the company to talk to while he did his magic.

I had one soft put on a Schuler shaft. The other Schuler shaft had a Kamui SS black tip. Both shafts are pool shafts. I kept the Triangle on my carom shaft intact. Figured it would be a good comparison for me. I had one soft put on a old pre-cat predator shaft for my Meucci Original J Hook cue. The original Hook shaft has a soft Triangle tip on it. He put the medium tip on my Joss shaft to compare to the Kamui SS brown tip on the other Joss shaft. And I had Joe put the the Ki-Tech break tip on my Predator shaft, replacing the hard Buffalo. I meant to do a write-up a while ago but kinda forgot.

The Schuler shafts: I went back and forth with each shaft during separate sessions (approximately 4-5 hrs). I chalk before each shot during my PSR and I tend to spin the CB alot for position. Both shafts are identical with the exception of the tips now. The Kamui, when new, is soft like the Ki-Tech when new. But after about a month of me playing, I notice the Kamui SS seems more like a soft to medium. I had to be careful and ensure I used the gator grip prior to each session (sometimes several times during a session) on the Kamui. Since I had been playing with the Kamui's for so long, I guess I kinda got used to doing that. I put the Ki-Tech tip thru it's paces for about a month or so for a good comparison. I noticed the Ki-Tech soft didn't harden up like the Kamui. I'm keeping in mind that the Kamui is a layered tip and the Ki-Tech is a solid. The Ki-Tech soft has really held up. It doesn't mushroom or glaze at all. I still maintain the tip before each session just because it's a habit. I've since replaced the Kamui with another Ki-Tech soft. I do wish the sides of the tips stayed black. They kinda have a white-ish look to them when installed. I could put a black sharpie to them but I haven't. I'll get used to them as they are. You really can't beat these tips for the price. Kamui....you can kick rocks now. You've been replaced!

The Meucci shafts: Debated on whether to put a medium on with Joe prior to putting the soft on. I'm glad I put the Ki-Tech soft on when I did. Personal results were very similar between the Triangle and the Ki-Tech soft as far as hit, feel, and sound. Only difference I saw, which proved to be a biggie with me, is the Triangle loses it's shape alot sooner than the Ki-Tech. The Triangle mushroomed within the first couple of weeks I had it installed. The Ki-Tech has yet to mushroom at all. I've had to reshape the Triangle several times and have not had to with the Ki-Tech. But the sides of the Triangle does stay black. No biggie. Triangle....you can kick rocks too even thought you are alot cheaper than the Kamui. I have to let you go since I found a better one.

The Joss shafts: The Ki-Tech medium is a little bit harder than the Ki-Tech soft. Duh! Has a different sound and hit to me. Again...Duh! Both the Ki-Tech medium and the Kamui Brown SS were installed at the same time. I'm used to the sound and hit of the Ki-Tech softs now and found that the Ki-Tech medium didn't really suit me for pocket billiards. This tip kept the same shape and hit since installed. The Kamui Brown SS was definitely softer than the Ki-Tech medium when new. Another...DUH! But, after about a month or so, the Kamui hardened up on me and was alot closer to the Ki-Tech meduim. Kinda in between the Ki-Tech soft and medium in my personal opinion. Neither one was for me for pocket billiards but.....I think I found my new tip for 3C billiards!!! Had the tips replaced with Ki-Tech softs. Not looking back. Again.....Kamui....you done!

Put a medium on my Schuler carom shaft. Love it. The Ki-Tech break tip is very similar to me as the Samsara tip I had on my old break cue. Couldn't really give a good comparison as I only have one shaft. But it's staying on as long as I own the Predator break cue.

So....as you can see....I don't have a problem spending money on tips. I'd rather not spend lots of money on tips. But they are an investment just like the rest of the cue. Chris, you've done a great job with your tips and your customer service is awesome. Keep up the good work and look for my order soon. As for the rest of you.....if you haven't tried these tips yet, do yourself a favor and give them a try. You'll be glad you did and your wallet will stay a little fatter to boot!

Mike Pace.....OUT!
 

peteypooldude

I see Edges
Silver Member
Would like to hear from anyone who has had the soft installed... They seem to be a nightmare for cue repairmen the first time they do them...

Joe Blackburn cusses them pretty good... They require a sharp bit as they hate heat and will refuse to cut with a dull blade or chisel....

I am considering including a new carbide utility blade with the purchase of any soft.. I can buy the blades in bulk so 40 cents is not a bad invetment on my part to cut down some of the destroyed tips we have had from dull bits that we make up..... Since we don't get feedback from everyone I am posting a picture of a proper installaton... IF you had a soft installed and it was fuzzy please let me know so I can decide whether the blade inclusion would be worth the effort...

View attachment 370862

Thanks,

Chris

I've had no trouble at all getting them installed. I've had mine for about a year I guess and they are about worn out but still playing good
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
the great tip installer from Evergreen, Colorado known as Vague Doug and the great cue maker from Colorado Ernie Martinez have had no problems installing them.
But both said your blade has to be very sharp.
Ernie and Vague Doug both said they cut, shape and smell like a Triangle tip.
Anyway I don't care I just like them.
 

Gunn_Slinger

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I bought the 3 pack of a soft, medium, and hard tip. I had my guy put on the medium.
It wouldn't 'cut' down. It was too soft. Finally got it down to a playable size.
It mushroomed after 2 racks of 9 ball. I took it down lower, shaped it up, and played another 10 racks with it.
It mushroomed again.
After have to take it down a 3rd time and re-shape it, it mushroomed again.
I tried this tip because , in another thread, players said it played like an 'old' triangle.
It doesnt. It plays like the new ( way too soft ) triangles.They play like mush.
It comes off next week for a Kamui SS Black. Very disappointed.
 

mcsock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Working on a new Ki-tech now will be my 4th. NEVER seen any mushrooming from them at all.
 

rhatten

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I bought the 3 pack of a soft, medium, and hard tip. I had my guy put on the medium.
It wouldn't 'cut' down. It was too soft. Finally got it down to a playable size.
It mushroomed after 2 racks of 9 ball. I took it down lower, shaped it up, and played another 10 racks with it.
It mushroomed again.
After have to take it down a 3rd time and re-shape it, it mushroomed again.
I tried this tip because , in another thread, players said it played like an 'old' triangle.
It doesnt. It plays like the new ( way too soft ) triangles.They play like mush.
It comes off next week for a Kamui SS Black. Very disappointed.

This sounds like a tip that was heated up during trimming.. ie Dull Blade. I've put on many and I can say as an installer/Player this has been my experience early on if your installer is spinning the lathe too fast OR using a dull blade. Since I install all of these at low speed using new sharp blade on every new install (especially on tip 'below' Ki-tech Medium Hard) I have NOT seen this to be an issue.

Randy
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
OK thanks for the feedback... I may elect to just start putting a card in with the tips explaining the need for a new blade... With that said I will make up even tips that are installed improperly if you send me a picture... I guess I could offer new blades in the store as an option at cost since apparently their pricing varies and they may not be readily available depending on where you are.... I actually hand install using an old old copper berylium scraper that I sharpen to a knife edge... My lathe has been here for 6 months and no place to setup yet to rehab it... When I get it running I won't have to depend on others so much for feedback... until then once again thanks to everyone for the posts, pms and pic messages.....
 

Vahmurka

...and I get all da rolls
Silver Member
Ki-Tech Soft installed

on a Russian pyramid cue. It machined very well with no issues at all. The only thing I noticed it was a bit "stubborn" to shaping a dome, as compared to other tips.

Ki-tech-S-installed.jpg
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
on a Russian pyramid cue. It machined very well with no issues at all. The only thing I noticed it was a bit "stubborn" to shaping a dome, as compared to other tips.

View attachment 375814

Interesting that it's on a pyramid cue... I have had good response from people who have tried them for snoooker so I am very intrigued with the feedback from the pyramid player.. Keep me posted..... :thumbup:

Chris
 

Shooter08

Runde Aficianado
Gold Member
Silver Member
Did not read any of this post but would like to try a tip. We are a Kamui dealer but want to sell the best product available. If you want to send two, we will test and carry locally if they are better than Kamui. I personally play with a wizard M, my partner swears by Kamui Clear Black Super Softs on his edge hybrid shaft.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Chris about razor blades

Chris,

I don't know a thing about your tips but I tested utility knife blades and wrote an article back a few years ago. The magazine folded and the article went unpublished but the results were pretty simple:

The heavy duty blades: They are heavy duty, thicker than regular blades and also a lot duller from the very beginning. Anyone trying to put your soft tip on with one of these blades is likely to have issues.

The standard blade sold bulk is substantially sharper than the heavy duty blades, I still wouldn't shape more than three tips with each end, maybe only one of the tips that can be difficult.

The bi-metal or cobalt tips are sharpest of all and last longer. Probably can do two or three tip shapings per end using them only for shaping.

The full article, less the pictures, they didn't come across from Word. I think this is the latest version or close to it. Notice what I said about laying the blade on the relief of a standard cutting tool which I think is about nine degrees. This will take away much of the negative rake created by the bevel on a razor knife blade. The optimum cut is when the top of the bevel is at 90 degrees to the tip, not the main body of the razor blade. When scraping the tiniest differences in angle can mean the difference between a smooth peel and the fuzzies.

(Included text)
Shop Talk, Utility Knife Blades and Tip Work

We all use and abuse them but a little thought about these simple shop items can help us work safer and more effectively. First, utility knife blades are like files, they should always have a handle on them. The right handle that is, something we will discuss later. Also a given, anytime we are cutting under power or great pressure with a blade that breaks easily safety glasses are a must.

The first thing worth noting about utility knife blades is that they are not all created equal. Heavy duty blades are thicker and less likely to break. They also have a steeper bevel than standard utility knife blades. This means that they start off duller than standard blades, dull faster, and have more of a tendency to push off when using them as a scraper such as when shaping a cue tip. Except for rough work where the strength is needed, the heavy duty blade is the worst of all utility knife blades to use.

Standard knife blades work reasonably well. I shape three tips with a standard utility knife blade putting a small mark on the blade with a sharpie before I shape the next tip with it. I’m human, if I don’t mark it first and a sharpie isn’t handy when I am through I’ll set the knife down and forget to mark the blade. My personal rule of no shaping until the blade is marked keeps me better organized. After three tips are shaped I save the blade for other work that isn’t as demanding.

I have tried two specialty utility knife blades. A Ti coated one and a triple layer blade. Both blades were sharper than the standard blade and stayed sharp longer. I recommend trying a small pack of the more expensive blades, you may find that the quality easily justifies the price. I have decided that I will at least try every different type of utility knife blade I come across in my never ending search for better tools and tooling to work with.

Here are three different specialty blades:

The Lenox is a bimetal sandwich blade with more flexible metal on the outside to resist breakage and harder metal that takes and holds an edge better in the center, then the edge has been titanium coated for better life.

The Irwin is a bimetal blade without the titanium coating.

The Kobalt is totally titanium coated, a single layer blade I believe. The titanium coating keeps the edge sharp longer. Little purpose to titanium coating the entire blade, just gilding the lily for sales purposes.

Getting back to handles, a handle needs to hold the blade firmly or it is useless for much of our work. Retractable bladed utility knives are best given to people that cut cardboard for a living and cue mechanics that we don’t like. I keep three to six fixed blade utility knives around my shop. One is my tip knife that only does tips. The others are positioned various places I work, I hate stopping to chase tools. Some fixed bladed utility knives still let a blade move a little. Make a shim from an old utility knife blade or file one side of the knife handle, whatever it takes to be sure it holds the blade very securely without a twitch under pressure.

Fixed blade handle above, retractable blade handle below. Using the retractable blade knife with a lathe leads to gouges and ruined components, broken blades, and hurt cue builders. Using the fixed blade knife is far safer than using a naked blade as cue builders often do.(yes, I have been guilty of this practice!)

Now that we can hold the blade securely and guide it properly one simple trick involves using a cutting tool on the lathe as a tool rest. I think most do that, but once you can control the blade a little better a nice trick is to hold it on the relief area on the top of a cutting tool. When we lay the knife blade flat on a surface 90 degrees to the tip the bevel causes the cutting edge to be less than 90 degrees to the tip increasing push off. By taking some of this angle away we reduce push off and get a cleaner cut while a blade in a handle is still easily controlled.

The utility knife has many other uses around the shop, all better served with a fixed blade utility knife. It is a simple little tool but a handle that lets a blade move around often damages a project. No handle at all often damages a project or a hand.

In south Louisiana we believe in lagniappe, giving a little something extra. Here is a quick and simple tip to be able to organize many of the small items around your workbench, lathe, or mill. Take a piece of two by six white wood the length of your work bench or just shorter than the drain pan of your lathe. Lay out four rows of holes an inch and a half apart down the length of the board. Drill one row of holes just over an eighth inch diameter, one just over three-sixteenth, one just over one-quarter, and one just over three-eighths. I also drill a few specialty holes to hold certain tools I use often.

The board can lay loose or be c-clamped at one end or both to provide a handy organizer for Dremel bits, screwdrivers, scratch awls, the drill bits you swap out constantly, anything and everything that fits in the holes. No more pawing through drawers and cursing when you are overlooking the burr or whatever that is right in front of you. I don’t mount the board permanently because I occasionally move it place to place without disturbing all of the things in it.

Hu
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Chris,

I don't know a thing about your tips but I tested utility knife blades and wrote an article back a few years ago. The magazine folded and the article went unpublished but the results were pretty simple:

The heavy duty blades: They are heavy duty, thicker than regular blades and also a lot duller from the very beginning. Anyone trying to put your soft tip on with one of these blades is likely to have issues.

The standard blade sold bulk is substantially sharper than the heavy duty blades, I still wouldn't shape more than three tips with each end, maybe only one of the tips that can be difficult.

The bi-metal or cobalt tips are sharpest of all and last longer. Probably can do two or three tip shapings per end using them only for shaping.

The full article, less the pictures, they didn't come across from Word. I think this is the latest version or close to it. Notice what I said about laying the blade on the relief of a standard cutting tool which I think is about nine degrees. This will take away much of the negative rake created by the bevel on a razor knife blade. The optimum cut is when the top of the bevel is at 90 degrees to the tip, not the main body of the razor blade. When scraping the tiniest differences in angle can mean the difference between a smooth peel and the fuzzies.

(Included text)
Shop Talk, Utility Knife Blades and Tip Work

We all use and abuse them but a little thought about these simple shop items can help us work safer and more effectively. First, utility knife blades are like files, they should always have a handle on them. The right handle that is, something we will discuss later. Also a given, anytime we are cutting under power or great pressure with a blade that breaks easily safety glasses are a must.

The first thing worth noting about utility knife blades is that they are not all created equal. Heavy duty blades are thicker and less likely to break. They also have a steeper bevel than standard utility knife blades. This means that they start off duller than standard blades, dull faster, and have more of a tendency to push off when using them as a scraper such as when shaping a cue tip. Except for rough work where the strength is needed, the heavy duty blade is the worst of all utility knife blades to use.

Standard knife blades work reasonably well. I shape three tips with a standard utility knife blade putting a small mark on the blade with a sharpie before I shape the next tip with it. I’m human, if I don’t mark it first and a sharpie isn’t handy when I am through I’ll set the knife down and forget to mark the blade. My personal rule of no shaping until the blade is marked keeps me better organized. After three tips are shaped I save the blade for other work that isn’t as demanding.

I have tried two specialty utility knife blades. A Ti coated one and a triple layer blade. Both blades were sharper than the standard blade and stayed sharp longer. I recommend trying a small pack of the more expensive blades, you may find that the quality easily justifies the price. I have decided that I will at least try every different type of utility knife blade I come across in my never ending search for better tools and tooling to work with.

Here are three different specialty blades:

The Lenox is a bimetal sandwich blade with more flexible metal on the outside to resist breakage and harder metal that takes and holds an edge better in the center, then the edge has been titanium coated for better life.

The Irwin is a bimetal blade without the titanium coating.

The Kobalt is totally titanium coated, a single layer blade I believe. The titanium coating keeps the edge sharp longer. Little purpose to titanium coating the entire blade, just gilding the lily for sales purposes.

Getting back to handles, a handle needs to hold the blade firmly or it is useless for much of our work. Retractable bladed utility knives are best given to people that cut cardboard for a living and cue mechanics that we don’t like. I keep three to six fixed blade utility knives around my shop. One is my tip knife that only does tips. The others are positioned various places I work, I hate stopping to chase tools. Some fixed bladed utility knives still let a blade move a little. Make a shim from an old utility knife blade or file one side of the knife handle, whatever it takes to be sure it holds the blade very securely without a twitch under pressure.

Fixed blade handle above, retractable blade handle below. Using the retractable blade knife with a lathe leads to gouges and ruined components, broken blades, and hurt cue builders. Using the fixed blade knife is far safer than using a naked blade as cue builders often do.(yes, I have been guilty of this practice!)

Now that we can hold the blade securely and guide it properly one simple trick involves using a cutting tool on the lathe as a tool rest. I think most do that, but once you can control the blade a little better a nice trick is to hold it on the relief area on the top of a cutting tool. When we lay the knife blade flat on a surface 90 degrees to the tip the bevel causes the cutting edge to be less than 90 degrees to the tip increasing push off. By taking some of this angle away we reduce push off and get a cleaner cut while a blade in a handle is still easily controlled.

The utility knife has many other uses around the shop, all better served with a fixed blade utility knife. It is a simple little tool but a handle that lets a blade move around often damages a project. No handle at all often damages a project or a hand.

In south Louisiana we believe in lagniappe, giving a little something extra. Here is a quick and simple tip to be able to organize many of the small items around your workbench, lathe, or mill. Take a piece of two by six white wood the length of your work bench or just shorter than the drain pan of your lathe. Lay out four rows of holes an inch and a half apart down the length of the board. Drill one row of holes just over an eighth inch diameter, one just over three-sixteenth, one just over one-quarter, and one just over three-eighths. I also drill a few specialty holes to hold certain tools I use often.

The board can lay loose or be c-clamped at one end or both to provide a handy organizer for Dremel bits, screwdrivers, scratch awls, the drill bits you swap out constantly, anything and everything that fits in the holes. No more pawing through drawers and cursing when you are overlooking the burr or whatever that is right in front of you. I don’t mount the board permanently because I occasionally move it place to place without disturbing all of the things in it.

Hu

Great information... Appreciate you taking the time to post that...
:thumbup:

Chris
 

Kimmo H.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I installed the Ki tech Soft tip on my Mezz WX700 shaft. It was by far the most annoying tip I have yet installed, my cutting tool (wich is really sharp, diamond sharpened HSS) would'nt agree to cut it at all, had to use a few razor blades to get it exactly the way I wanted to.
Installation shouldn't be a real problem though, if you have access to a lathe.

I was really hopefull as is seemed to hold a fair amount of chalk and felt a lot like a kamui SS. It was an okay tip to play center ball with, but on draw shots especially it slipped every single time I tried to hit with it :confused: CB jumped right off the table, when you went a tip height below center. I played just centerball to play it in, but honestly it was plain unplayable for me, had to cut it off after playing with it for 5 hours or so.
I had quite high hopes on this tip, maybe I got a bad one or something? Too bad I didnt take a picture of the installed Ki Tech, I did however leave it on the wall in a minigrip bag, just in case :D

I now have a Purex laminated medium tip installed, and it seems to be an okay tip to play with. Not quite Kamui good imo, but still a pretty good tip :) And the CB stays on the table even with draw :thumbup:
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
I installed the Ki tech Soft tip on my Mezz WX700 shaft. It was by far the most annoying tip I have yet installed, my cutting tool (wich is really sharp, diamond sharpened HSS) would'nt agree to cut it at all, had to use a few razor blades to get it exactly the way I wanted to.
Installation shouldn't be a real problem though, if you have access to a lathe.

I was really hopefull as is seemed to hold a fair amount of chalk and felt a lot like a kamui SS. It was an okay tip to play center ball with, but on draw shots especially it slipped every single time I tried to hit with it :confused: CB jumped right off the table, when you went a tip height below center. I played just centerball to play it in, but honestly it was plain unplayable for me, had to cut it off after playing with it for 5 hours or so.
I had quite high hopes on this tip, maybe I got a bad one or something? Too bad I didnt take a picture of the installed Ki Tech, I did however leave it on the wall in a minigrip bag, just in case :D

I now have a Purex laminated medium tip installed, and it seems to be an okay tip to play with. Not quite Kamui good imo, but still a pretty good tip :) And the CB stays on the table even with draw :thumbup:

Definitely not the normal feedback... Wish I could have seen a picture as well... If it was fuzzy it may have acted funny or you could indeed have gotten a bad one.... We had 25 R&D Masse tips that were packaged as softs awhile ago and I tracked down all but 10 of them. They are blue and heavily rubberized. Not good for Masse or Play at this point until I work on the formula... Pull the tip out of the bag and if you can't bend it squeezing it between your fingers I think I know where one or more of them went... PM me your address and I will get some tips in the mail to make up for the problem......

We will always make ANY tips you feel may not live up to expectations or we will even swap out grades if you buy a quantity of different tips and decide that say you wanted to trade your hard grades back in for mediums... NOTE: WE WON"T DO THIS FOR THE 3 PACK AND 5 PACK SAMPLERS.......

Chris
 

Kimmo H.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You are absolutely correct, it bends like rubber :D Atleast we now know what was the issue, it was just that to play with too, bouncy and rubbery.


Thank you for sorting out the issue so fast, greatly appreciate it :thumbup:
Great customer service, issue was looked into very quickly and replacement tips will be sent to me :) Cant wait to test out the real Ki techs, I'll write a review on them, this time with pictures when they arrive, it will probably take a while though, mail takes it sweeeeet time to get from US to Finland :eek:
 

octy81

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I didn't use a lathe, I used a utility knife and went old school. It did take a while it was very hard to get through at first. Also it was hard to shape couldn't get a dime on it , after about 3 months I went back to a g2 hard
 

Bigb'scues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just installed a medium soft.....it cut great, burnished great, shaped great, and I hope it plays great.
Will add more then.
(I kept Clear pad from kamui I was using )
 

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