Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Main Category > Main Forum
Reload this Page Scientist explains why laminated tips perform as they do
Reply
Page 1 of 7 1 23 Last »
 
Share Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 20 votes, 5.00 average.
Scientist explains why laminated tips perform as they do
Old
  (#1)
arnaldo
AzB Silver Member
arnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond repute
 
arnaldo's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 594
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2012
   
Scientist explains why laminated tips perform as they do - 01-22-2015, 01:08 PM

Regarding the largely unresolved question (in scientific terms) about the often-cited performance superiority of laminated tips versus traditional single-layer ones, a few years ago I contacted Jack H. Koehler who is renowned in pool circles for his scientific analysis and explanations about the physics of pool. He’s the best-selling author of “The Science of Pocket Billiards,” “Upscale Nine-Ball,” and
“Upscale One-Pocket” as well as more than 20 scientific papers on subjects unrelated to pool.

I thought he’d be the perfect man to understand and hopefully explain the physical mechanisms or science underlying the commonly discussed unique characteristics and superior performance of laminated cue tips compared to conventional non-layered tips. (Varied opinions continue of course in matters of "superiority" with more than a few players returning to conventional tips after trying laminated ones.)

Below is his then-emailed reply to me which contains his very creditable thoughts on layered tips (and which I thought would be interesting to share with fellow AB-ers
--------------------------------------------------------------
“Leather (from the donor animal) is not homogenous. The texture (and hardness) changes from the hair side to the inside. If the tip is made of one piece of leather, you get a simple progression from hard to soft. The thin pieces of leather skived for lamination purposes have these same characteristics but when you stack them, to get the proper thickness, the final product is much more homogeneous. The randomness of grain from layer to layer when compiling the stacks, which you properly mention, probably also plays a part in the resulting superiority and performance characteristics.”
---------------------------------------------------------------
I think that, as usual and as expected, he got right to the heart of the matter.

I would add that the nature of the adhesive (and the process) involved in lamination also affect the often discussed pros and cons of performance when comparing the two overall categories (laminated vs. single-layered) with respect to "grab", glazing, mushrooming, longevity, change in hardness over time, chalk retention, etc.

Arnaldo


“When the action starts, it may not go the way you planned, and you’re down to your reflexes. That’s where your roadwork shows . . . If you cheated on that in the dark of the morning, well, you’re gonna get found out now, under the bright lights.” – Joe “Smokin’ Joe” Frazier
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#2)
LHP5
AzB Silver Member

LHP5 has a reputation beyond reputeLHP5 has a reputation beyond reputeLHP5 has a reputation beyond reputeLHP5 has a reputation beyond reputeLHP5 has a reputation beyond reputeLHP5 has a reputation beyond reputeLHP5 has a reputation beyond reputeLHP5 has a reputation beyond reputeLHP5 has a reputation beyond reputeLHP5 has a reputation beyond reputeLHP5 has a reputation beyond repute
 
LHP5's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 583
vCash: 500
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Join Date: Jun 2012
   
01-22-2015, 02:05 PM

So pretty much the same concept as man-made grain in laminted shafts?


Pressure makes diamonds. Fire refines gold.

Play it like you mean it.

Playing Cue: Predator Ikon 2-5 w/ 314-2
Break Cue: Mezz PBII
Jump Cue: Gulyassy Reaper
Case: Instroke
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#3)
Tramp Steamer
One Pocket enthusiast.
Tramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond repute
 
Tramp Steamer's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 6,568
vCash: 500
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Join Date: Nov 2009
   
01-22-2015, 02:08 PM

Great post.
Why anyone would want to use a single-layer tip (Le Pro, et al) is beyond me.


Steamer Cue Sports Ltd. Purveyor of two fine quality cues, the Miracle, and the Wonder. Our motto says it all: "If it's a good cue, it's a Wonder." "If it's a straight cue, it's a Miracle."

I am a member in good standing in the Lock Society as: Tramp Lock.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#4)
bflojosh
The sneakiest sneaky
bflojosh has a reputation beyond reputebflojosh has a reputation beyond reputebflojosh has a reputation beyond reputebflojosh has a reputation beyond reputebflojosh has a reputation beyond reputebflojosh has a reputation beyond reputebflojosh has a reputation beyond reputebflojosh has a reputation beyond reputebflojosh has a reputation beyond reputebflojosh has a reputation beyond reputebflojosh has a reputation beyond repute
 
bflojosh's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 221
vCash: 500
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
   
01-22-2015, 02:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tramp Steamer View Post
Great post.
Why anyone would want to use a single-layer tip (Le Pro, et al) is beyond me.
I agree mostly, but the milkduds available from Pooldawg8 are the best tip I've ever used.
That could be because the pressing of the tips makes them more uniform, but who knows I'm just guessing
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#5)
Tramp Steamer
One Pocket enthusiast.
Tramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond reputeTramp Steamer has a reputation beyond repute
 
Tramp Steamer's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 6,568
vCash: 500
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Join Date: Nov 2009
   
01-22-2015, 03:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bflojosh View Post
I agree mostly, but the milkduds available from Pooldawg8 are the best tip I've ever used.
That could be because the pressing of the tips makes them more uniform, but who knows I'm just guessing

Without a doubt the best tip going today is the Ultraskin, in soft, medium, or hard, from Tom Hay. Order some and tell him I sent you. First-class construction. Excellent playability.
Other tips, that comes to mind, are the Fourskin tips from Steamer Cue Sports Ltd.
Gathered from circumscision wards from some of the best hospitals in the country; they are arguably the best tips money can buy, and are available in your choice of soft, kinda hard, and damned hard.
Also, coming out this year, is the new break tip: The Diamond Cutter.


Steamer Cue Sports Ltd. Purveyor of two fine quality cues, the Miracle, and the Wonder. Our motto says it all: "If it's a good cue, it's a Wonder." "If it's a straight cue, it's a Miracle."

I am a member in good standing in the Lock Society as: Tramp Lock.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#6)
maha
from way back when
maha has a reputation beyond reputemaha has a reputation beyond reputemaha has a reputation beyond reputemaha has a reputation beyond reputemaha has a reputation beyond reputemaha has a reputation beyond reputemaha has a reputation beyond reputemaha has a reputation beyond reputemaha has a reputation beyond reputemaha has a reputation beyond reputemaha has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 987
vCash: 500
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: cold
   
01-22-2015, 06:07 PM

yea its utterly amazing moscani ran all those balls with a single layer leather tip. and lassiter, and mizerak. how on earth did it happen?
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#7)
illusivetrout
AzB Silver Member
illusivetrout has a reputation beyond reputeillusivetrout has a reputation beyond reputeillusivetrout has a reputation beyond reputeillusivetrout has a reputation beyond reputeillusivetrout has a reputation beyond reputeillusivetrout has a reputation beyond reputeillusivetrout has a reputation beyond reputeillusivetrout has a reputation beyond reputeillusivetrout has a reputation beyond reputeillusivetrout has a reputation beyond reputeillusivetrout has a reputation beyond repute
 
illusivetrout's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 401
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Feb 2007
   
01-22-2015, 06:13 PM

With skill?
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#8)
Sloppy Pockets
AzB Silver Member
Sloppy Pockets has a reputation beyond reputeSloppy Pockets has a reputation beyond reputeSloppy Pockets has a reputation beyond reputeSloppy Pockets has a reputation beyond reputeSloppy Pockets has a reputation beyond reputeSloppy Pockets has a reputation beyond reputeSloppy Pockets has a reputation beyond reputeSloppy Pockets has a reputation beyond reputeSloppy Pockets has a reputation beyond reputeSloppy Pockets has a reputation beyond reputeSloppy Pockets has a reputation beyond repute
 
Sloppy Pockets's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 2,820
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Just outside the Blue Line
   
01-22-2015, 06:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tramp Steamer View Post
Other tips, that comes to mind, are the Fourskin tips from Steamer Cue Sports Ltd.
Gathered from circumscision wards from some of the best hospitals in the country; they are arguably the best tips money can buy, and are available in your choice of soft, kinda hard, and damned hard.
Just make sure to carry a supply of Fourex Natural tip protectors. They will prevent your tip from contamination, just in case you end up placing your shaft in some filthy place you wish you hadn't.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#9)
arnaldo
AzB Silver Member
arnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond reputearnaldo has a reputation beyond repute
 
arnaldo's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 594
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2012
   
01-22-2015, 06:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bflojosh View Post
I agree mostly, but the milkduds available from Pooldawg8 are the best tip I've ever used.
That could be because the pressing of the tips makes them more uniform . . .
-----------------------------------------------
Excellent and very pertinent reasoning, Josh. In fact your comment actually highlights the fact that pressed tips really deserve to be considered as a third and quite unique category in any discussion of tips involving comparisons of the performances of laminated and single-layer ones.

Thanks for that observation that actually stimulates the idea of a very real third overall category of tips that are gaining wide acceptance among players who've tried pressed tips. I know that players have pre-pressed Le Pros, Elkmasters, etc. for many decades, but it never occurred to me before that they indeed represent their own unique category (and "pool physics" attributes to be analyzed) especially with the dimension of casein proteins introduced to leather during pre-soaking in milk.

Arnaldo


“When the action starts, it may not go the way you planned, and you’re down to your reflexes. That’s where your roadwork shows . . . If you cheated on that in the dark of the morning, well, you’re gonna get found out now, under the bright lights.” – Joe “Smokin’ Joe” Frazier
  
Reply With Quote
Ki tech tips are the nutz.......
Old
  (#10)
genomachino
AzB Silver Member
genomachino has a reputation beyond reputegenomachino has a reputation beyond reputegenomachino has a reputation beyond reputegenomachino has a reputation beyond reputegenomachino has a reputation beyond reputegenomachino has a reputation beyond reputegenomachino has a reputation beyond reputegenomachino has a reputation beyond reputegenomachino has a reputation beyond reputegenomachino has a reputation beyond reputegenomachino has a reputation beyond repute
 
genomachino's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 4,341
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Join Date: Mar 2009
   
Ki tech tips are the nutz....... - 01-23-2015, 01:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tramp Steamer View Post
Great post.
Why anyone would want to use a single-layer tip (Le Pro, et al) is beyond me.
I don't care what anyone says about layered tips vs whatever.

The Ki tech medium that I switched to from a layered tip plays consistent and doesn't overspin the rock.

The layered tips just grab too much.

My game went up a ball by switching back. But not just to any tip.

The ki tech medium.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#11)
Patrick Johnson
Banned
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,747
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
01-23-2015, 06:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by genomachino View Post
The layered tips just grab too much.
Have you tested this, or is it an impression? I can suggest a simple test method that removes "observation bias".

pj <- doubt it
chgo
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#12)
RBC
Deceased
RBC has a reputation beyond reputeRBC has a reputation beyond reputeRBC has a reputation beyond reputeRBC has a reputation beyond reputeRBC has a reputation beyond reputeRBC has a reputation beyond reputeRBC has a reputation beyond reputeRBC has a reputation beyond reputeRBC has a reputation beyond reputeRBC has a reputation beyond reputeRBC has a reputation beyond repute
 
RBC's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 2,265
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Dallas, TX
   
01-23-2015, 06:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnaldo View Post
Regarding the largely unresolved question (in scientific terms) about the often-cited performance superiority of laminated tips versus traditional single-layer ones, a few years ago I contacted Jack H. Koehler who is renowned in pool circles for his scientific analysis and explanations about the physics of pool. He’s the best-selling author of “The Science of Pocket Billiards,” “Upscale Nine-Ball,” and
“Upscale One-Pocket” as well as more than 20 scientific papers on subjects unrelated to pool.

I thought he’d be the perfect man to understand and hopefully explain the physical mechanisms or science underlying the commonly discussed unique characteristics and superior performance of laminated cue tips compared to conventional non-layered tips. (Varied opinions continue of course in matters of "superiority" with more than a few players returning to conventional tips after trying laminated ones.)

Below is his then-emailed reply to me which contains his very creditable thoughts on layered tips (and which I thought would be interesting to share with fellow AB-ers
--------------------------------------------------------------
“Leather (from the donor animal) is not homogenous. The texture (and hardness) changes from the hair side to the inside. If the tip is made of one piece of leather, you get a simple progression from hard to soft. The thin pieces of leather skived for lamination purposes have these same characteristics but when you stack them, to get the proper thickness, the final product is much more homogeneous. The randomness of grain from layer to layer when compiling the stacks, which you properly mention, probably also plays a part in the resulting superiority and performance characteristics.”
---------------------------------------------------------------
I think that, as usual and as expected, he got right to the heart of the matter.

I would add that the nature of the adhesive (and the process) involved in lamination also affect the often discussed pros and cons of performance when comparing the two overall categories (laminated vs. single-layered) with respect to "grab", glazing, mushrooming, longevity, change in hardness over time, chalk retention, etc.

Arnaldo


That's funny

Regular single layer tips aren't made that way, so I guess none of that means anything.

Royce


Royce Bunnell (RBC) unfortunately passed away on November 26th 2015. He is dearly missed by the OB family.

Please direct any questions you may have regarding OB products to sales@obcues.com via email or call 877-399-9901.

Thank you.

www.obcues.com
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#13)
Shawn Armstrong
Abooboo No Neck
Shawn Armstrong has a reputation beyond reputeShawn Armstrong has a reputation beyond reputeShawn Armstrong has a reputation beyond reputeShawn Armstrong has a reputation beyond reputeShawn Armstrong has a reputation beyond reputeShawn Armstrong has a reputation beyond reputeShawn Armstrong has a reputation beyond reputeShawn Armstrong has a reputation beyond reputeShawn Armstrong has a reputation beyond reputeShawn Armstrong has a reputation beyond reputeShawn Armstrong has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,078
vCash: 500
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Join Date: Jul 2007
   
01-23-2015, 07:01 AM

I had a chat with Jim Buss years ago. Before Jim was a cuemaker, he was a rocket scientist, so he knows a few things besides wood. Anyways, he told me about his dislike of layered tips, due to the exposed face, and all of the glue lines. I've found that layered tips are a little more consistent in hardness, but they don't hold chalk nearly as well as a standard one piece tip.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#14)
hang-the-9
AzB Silver Member
hang-the-9 has a reputation beyond reputehang-the-9 has a reputation beyond reputehang-the-9 has a reputation beyond reputehang-the-9 has a reputation beyond reputehang-the-9 has a reputation beyond reputehang-the-9 has a reputation beyond reputehang-the-9 has a reputation beyond reputehang-the-9 has a reputation beyond reputehang-the-9 has a reputation beyond reputehang-the-9 has a reputation beyond reputehang-the-9 has a reputation beyond repute
 
hang-the-9's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 8,914
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: MA
   
01-23-2015, 07:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Have you tested this, or is it an impression? I can suggest a simple test method that removes "observation bias".

pj <- doubt it
chgo
A friend and I tested tips along with shafts to see how much spin a particular combination gets. Between the two of us we had maybe 6 different tip/shaft combos.

With a standard shaft and one peice tip, we were both getting to about A spot with the cueball, with a laminted tip and a LD shaft (his Predator 314-2) we got to B which was the most spin we could get, a few times we were able to get to the short rail not even touching the side with an LD shaft and laminated tip. A laminated tip with standard shaft and a LD shaft with a regular tip were in the middle of those, roughly in the same areas. I don't remember the exact ball positions but that was the test we played around with, use low right and see how far up-table we can swing the cueball to. We both shot with each combination 3-4-5 times and the area we could get to was consisten in all the tries.



"I'll back you against anyone, as long as you did not know you were playng for money"

Charter member of the D-Bag Club, we stick to the letter of the rules not the spirit, and up yours!
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#15)
chefjeff
No sides, only players
chefjeff has a reputation beyond reputechefjeff has a reputation beyond reputechefjeff has a reputation beyond reputechefjeff has a reputation beyond reputechefjeff has a reputation beyond reputechefjeff has a reputation beyond reputechefjeff has a reputation beyond reputechefjeff has a reputation beyond reputechefjeff has a reputation beyond reputechefjeff has a reputation beyond reputechefjeff has a reputation beyond repute
 
chefjeff's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 46,936
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
   
01-23-2015, 07:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tramp Steamer View Post
Great post.
Why anyone would want to use a single-layer tip (Le Pro, et al) is beyond me.
Because a de-laminating tip sucks as it falls apart.

Also, the glues used glaze a tip after use.

Then there's the changing feel of the tip as it wears through multiple layers that each has a different affect on the hit at the same time, so judging those effects is nearly impossible. Nothing helps my game more than having a piece of my tip fly off onto the table during a shot. The I get to adjust to a flat tip for a while...fun fun fun...

Add to that the cost, the increased problems with replacing one, and I found a one-piece tip superior to layered tips.

Now you know.

Jeff Livingston
  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 1 of 7 1 23 Last »

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.