Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Main Category > Main Forum
Reload this Page Couple of interesting things about side spin
Reply
Page 1 of 4 1 23 Last »
 
Share Thread Tools Rate Thread
Couple of interesting things about side spin
Old
  (#1)
Patrick Johnson
Banned
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,747
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
Couple of interesting things about side spin - 12-11-2015, 09:11 PM

The scale drawing below shows an overhead view of three cues hitting three cue balls at different offsets - cue moved 1/4", 1/2" and 3/4" to the left. Just for fun, it also compares where nickel and dime shaped tips contact the CB at those offsets, assuming the cue's centerline is offset the same amount.

I notice two interesting things:

1. These three very common tip offsets - often called 1, 2 & 3 (or 1/2, 1 and 1 1/2) "tips" - produce almost exactly 1/3, 2/3 and 3/3 of maximum sidespin (the red lines on the CB), which correspond to 1, 2 and 3 diamonds of cross-table angle change. I just find this correspondence remarkably convenient.

2. The difference in contact points for nickel and dime shaped tips (shown by the circles at the cues' tips and the lines connecting their centers with the CB's center) is almost nonexistent: 1/128" at 1/3 max sidespin, 1/64" at 2/3 max sidespin and less than 1/32" at maximum sidespin (true for nickel and dime tips of any width). So how true is it really that a dime shaped tip can produce noticeably more spin for the same tip offset?

Doing my part to use up these damned pixels...

pj
chgo

Attachment 53737
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 12-12-2015 at 01:55 PM.
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#2)
slide13
AzB Silver Member
slide13 has a reputation beyond reputeslide13 has a reputation beyond reputeslide13 has a reputation beyond reputeslide13 has a reputation beyond reputeslide13 has a reputation beyond reputeslide13 has a reputation beyond reputeslide13 has a reputation beyond reputeslide13 has a reputation beyond reputeslide13 has a reputation beyond reputeslide13 has a reputation beyond reputeslide13 has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,788
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 34 / 100%
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wisconsin
   
12-11-2015, 10:09 PM

Interesting, never realized a dime and nickel radius were so close to each other when it comes to contact point. Good to know, thanks for sharing.


Playing Cue: Runde 15
Break/Jump Cue: Gilbert
Jump: Jacoby
Case: Fields
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#3)
Neil
AzB Silver Member
Neil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond reputeNeil has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,344
vCash: 2200
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Jan 2007
   
12-11-2015, 10:19 PM

Pat, your diagram would reference a tip with no compression. I believe that in actuality, the difference is even less due to compression of the tip.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#4)
Patrick Johnson
Banned
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,747
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
12-12-2015, 06:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil View Post
Pat, your diagram would reference a tip with no compression. I believe that in actuality, the difference is even less due to compression of the tip.
That could be, Neil - interesting point.

pj
chgo
  
Reply With Quote
I agree with Neil
Old
  (#5)
336Robin
aimisthegameinpool.com
336Robin has a reputation beyond repute336Robin has a reputation beyond repute336Robin has a reputation beyond repute336Robin has a reputation beyond repute336Robin has a reputation beyond repute336Robin has a reputation beyond repute336Robin has a reputation beyond repute336Robin has a reputation beyond repute336Robin has a reputation beyond repute336Robin has a reputation beyond repute336Robin has a reputation beyond repute
 
336Robin's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 5,246
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: West of Winston-Salem, NC
   
I agree with Neil - 12-12-2015, 06:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil View Post
Pat, your diagram would reference a tip with no compression. I believe that in actuality, the difference is even less due to compression of the tip.
I have at times played banks with a heavier shaft and a skinnier shaft. I always preferred the heavier shaft because it felt as if I had more control in that particular game. Im not sure why that is but perhaps its because there is less shaft bend and because of you feel as if you are just a little more in charge of things but I have made some great bank shots with a skinny shaft although it seems as if I have to pay very close attention to what I am doing.

I think this factor might be the confidence factor as it pertains to shaft vibration and control of the physics of the shaft.

I'm not sure how one would measure that but it could be argued that even these slight differences in contact point could be viewed as differences that one could say they could feel although that is unlikely.

There is something different between playing banks with those two different types of shafts I prefer a less skinny one at least somewhere around 12.75 but that is my preference.


Karma is something you create!

336Robin
"Improve your shot making forever for $3.99!"

The Acquiring Excellence In Pool Series
Acquiring Excellence in Pool-The Target Ball Concept-Aiming,
The Flight of the Cue Ball-Aiming Adjusted for Side Spin,
Robbing the Bank Shot!-Pass Over Banking
Google Robin E Kelly on Amazon!
Change your game for a couple of Bucks!

Acquire Excellence in Pool!

website:http://aimisthegameinpool.com
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#6)
Patrick Johnson
Banned
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,747
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
12-12-2015, 07:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by slide13 View Post
Interesting, never realized a dime and nickel radius were so close to each other when it comes to contact point. Good to know, thanks for sharing.
I was a little surprised too, but it made sense once I understood the geometry.

[nerdalert]

I realized that when spheres (or circles) touch, their contact points are offset from their respective centers in the same ratio as their sizes. So, for instance, when the spheres are the same size the contact point is midway between their centers (the principle we're familiar with in "double overlap" aiming). But when the spheres/circles are different sizes (like balls and rounded tips), then the contact point is closer to the smaller one's center, but still in ratio with their sizes.

A pool ball (2.25" dia) is about 3 times the size of a dime or nickel (~11/16" & 13/16" dia), so their shared contact point is ~3 times as far from the ball's center as it is from the tip's center (~3/4 of the way from ball center to tip center). But the difference between the two coin sizes is much smaller, so the difference in their ratios with the much bigger ball is even less - only about 6% difference.

[/nerdalert]

pj <- had to get that off my chest
chgo
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#7)
Patrick Johnson
Banned
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,747
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
12-12-2015, 07:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 336Robin View Post
I have at times played banks with a heavier shaft and a skinnier shaft. I always preferred the heavier shaft because it felt as if I had more control in that particular game. Im not sure why that is but perhaps its because there is less shaft bend and because of you feel as if you are just a little more in charge of things but I have made some great bank shots with a skinny shaft although it seems as if I have to pay very close attention to what I am doing.

I think this factor might be the confidence factor as it pertains to shaft vibration and control of the physics of the shaft.

I'm not sure how one would measure that but it could be argued that even these slight differences in contact point could be viewed as differences that one could say they could feel although that is unlikely.

There is something different between playing banks with those two different types of shafts I prefer a less skinny one at least somewhere around 12.75 but that is my preference.
Shaft size doesn't make any difference in contact point location - only tip curvature (the "size" of the curve) matters. Notice the shafts in my drawing are the same.

So you're "feeling" something else.

pj
chgo
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#8)
ENGLISH!
Banned
ENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 18,945
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: Jun 2012
   
12-12-2015, 10:09 AM

Small differences can be HUGE in a game of millimeters.

It's not just about the small differences at the contact on the cue ball.

It's about the differences that they yield in the results.

As a tip compresses it also wraps around & it's about how the ball is 'released' out of contact.

Hard tip...less compression & less wrapping than a medium tip.

Soft tip... more compression & more wrapping than a medium tip.

Different releases & then throw in a different size & radius tip.

Too often parameters are too isolated in 'discussions'. The big picture should be kept in mind.

Just food for thought. Not interested in any arguments.

Each individual player can & will have to do their own thinking to make their own determinations, perhaps after doing some experimenting own their own.

Best 2 ALL.

PS If anyone thinks that differences do not yield differences, they certainly have the right to think that way & any other way that they choose to think. Each individual should be responsible for their own game.

Last edited by ENGLISH!; 12-14-2015 at 07:21 PM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#9)
ENGLISH!
Banned
ENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 18,945
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: Jun 2012
   
12-12-2015, 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 336Robin View Post
I have at times played banks with a heavier shaft and a skinnier shaft. I always preferred the heavier shaft because it felt as if I had more control in that particular game. Im not sure why that is but perhaps its because there is less shaft bend and because of you feel as if you are just a little more in charge of things but I have made some great bank shots with a skinny shaft although it seems as if I have to pay very close attention to what I am doing.

I think this factor might be the confidence factor as it pertains to shaft vibration and control of the physics of the shaft.

I'm not sure how one would measure that but it could be argued that even these slight differences in contact point could be viewed as differences that one could say they could feel although that is unlikely.

There is something different between playing banks with those two different types of shafts I prefer a less skinny one at least somewhere around 12.75 but that is my preference.
Robin,

Some can feel differences & some can not. Some can feel the tip on the ball & some can not.

Like I said, If anyone thinks that differences do not yield differences they are certainly entitled to think that way & any other way that they choose or wish to think.

Best to YOU & All.

PS I have 2 - 11.75 mm conical taper OB Pro Shafts & I have a Predator 314 CAT that has been juiced, sanded down, to 12 mm with a very long pro taper that is even a bit more narrow about 15" from the tip. The Cat shaft squirts less & spins the ball more. Yes the tips are not exactly the same & other parameters are not exactly the same, BUT the results are very different. I prefer the more stiff OB shafts then the flexible juiced Predator for overall play BUT I like that Predator in close quarters like just 1/2 the table. I can easily see the game evolving to where players will one day be using different cues for different shots just as golfers use different clubs for different shots, as long as the shot clock does not become prohibitive of that.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#10)
Patrick Johnson
Banned
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,747
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
12-12-2015, 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
...The difference in contact points for nickel and dime shaped tips (shown by the circles at the cues' tips and the lines connecting their centers with the CB's center) is almost nonexistent: 1/128" at 1/3 max sidespin, 1/64" at 2/3 max sidespin and less than 1/32" at maximum sidespin (true for nickel and dime tips of any width). So how true is it really that a dime shaped tip can produce noticeably more spin for the same tip offset?
One last point: these small differences are smaller than any player's cueing accuracy, even pros. In other words, if you see differences in the amount of spin you get from tip to tip, it's more likely because of the inaccuracy of your stroke than the shape of your tip.

pj
chgo
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#11)
JB Cases
www.jbcases.com

JB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond repute
 
JB Cases's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 27,504
vCash: 5700
iTrader: 129 / 100%
Blog Entries: 11
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Earth
  Send a message via AIM to JB Cases Send a message via MSN to JB Cases Send a message via Yahoo to JB Cases Send a message via Skype™ to JB Cases 
12-12-2015, 11:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by slide13 View Post
Interesting, never realized a dime and nickel radius were so close to each other when it comes to contact point. Good to know, thanks for sharing.
Known that for a while. I did several similar drawings when developing the Cuesight training ball.

It is why I made one side of the ball have little circles that represent the contact patch so that players can more easily visualize the amount of tip that will contact the ball.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


Design Your Own Case. <---click here
The world's first and only online cue case designer brought to you by JB Cases. Try it.


jb@jbcases.com Skype: jbideas

Center To Edge Aiming Works. See it for yourself here.

Stan Shuffet's You Tube Channel. - CTE Demonstrations


"No such thing as a 1/2 ball hit....." - Duckie
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#12)
Patrick Johnson
Banned
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,747
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
12-12-2015, 12:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Cases View Post
I made one side of the ball have little circles that represent the contact patch so that players can more easily visualize the amount of tip that will contact the ball.
Maybe I misunderstand your point, but I don't think the size of the contact patch has anything to do with the difference in contact points.

pj
chgo
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#13)
ENGLISH!
Banned
ENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond reputeENGLISH! has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 18,945
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: Jun 2012
   
12-12-2015, 12:10 PM

Addendum:

As the tip goes more offset & the 'curve' of the cue ball comes more into play since the tangent angle on the ball changes those small differences can become more apparent, as the tip is making contact more 'around' the ball.

Some individuals stay close to center while others venture farther out when 'needed' or desired.

Some can feel, note, or see the different results while others seem incapable of discerning the differences.

One's stroke accuracy is not the deciding factor regarding the differences.

The same stroke with differences in equipment will yield different results.

Again just food for thought.

Best 2 All.

PS Again, if anyone chooses to think or believe that differences do not yield differences that is certainly their right to think or believe as they choose.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#14)
JB Cases
www.jbcases.com

JB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond reputeJB Cases has a reputation beyond repute
 
JB Cases's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 27,504
vCash: 5700
iTrader: 129 / 100%
Blog Entries: 11
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Earth
  Send a message via AIM to JB Cases Send a message via MSN to JB Cases Send a message via Yahoo to JB Cases Send a message via Skype™ to JB Cases 
12-12-2015, 12:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Maybe I misunderstand your point, but I don't think the size of the contact patch has anything to do with the difference in contact points.

pj
chgo
My point was that the contact point difference is miniscule between radius sizes and that it's better imo to think of spin offset as a larger and actual 'patch' of tip rather than a point to a point.

Having studied slow motion video it is clear that the tip compresses to about a 3mm section that actually moves the cue ball. This is why I made the circles 3mm apart. Each one simulates approximately a 1/2 tip offset from the shooter's perspective.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


Design Your Own Case. <---click here
The world's first and only online cue case designer brought to you by JB Cases. Try it.


jb@jbcases.com Skype: jbideas

Center To Edge Aiming Works. See it for yourself here.

Stan Shuffet's You Tube Channel. - CTE Demonstrations


"No such thing as a 1/2 ball hit....." - Duckie
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#15)
Patrick Johnson
Banned
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,747
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
12-12-2015, 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Cases View Post
My point was that the contact point difference is miniscule between radius sizes and that it's better imo to think of spin offset as a larger and actual 'patch' of tip rather than a point to a point.
Maybe I still don't understand, but the amount of offset isn't determined by the size of the contact patch; it's where the center of the patch is located on the ball (regardless of the patch's size).

Quote:
Having studied slow motion video it is clear that the tip compresses to about a 3mm section that actually moves the cue ball. This is why I made the circles 3mm apart. Each one simulates approximately a 1/2 tip offset from the shooter's perspective.
To each his own, but I think a "1/2 tip" is most commonly considered to be related to the size of the actual cue's tip.

My 1st point above is that when the tip is moved sideways 1/2 the tip's width (assuming a common tip width of 12.75mm), then 1) it's visually easy to measure, and 2) it moves the contact point almost exactly 1/3 of maximum offset (a convenient fraction for estimating spin effect).

Of course you can move the tip any amount no matter how you visualize it; this "1/2 physical width = 1/3 of maximum spin" is just a conveniently memorable way to gauge it.

pj
chgo
  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 1 of 4 1 23 Last »

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.