Players, PLEASE build a players association.

SlimShafty

SlimShafty

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A solid foundation started by the pro players is vital to the health and future of the sport, PLEASE someone make an effort to get a players association together. I know it's going to be very hard, but it has to happen.

This has to take place regardless if the IPT continues or not, you need a president and each country should have head representatives to report to, once formed things such as what constitutes a pro player can be established, a yearly dues can be set up in players fund with player board members and countries voting on how best to use funds and build the starting foundation we so need!!

Pool needs this more now then ever before! in the start dues can be very small, say $10, but it's so important for players to have a voice on all tours and how things take place, right now players are being led around by the promoters and so called non profit and a trade association, most of the smaller promoters are pretty darn good, but the players still need to unify and have a single voice.
 
TAP TAP TAP

If such an organization had existed, it would have been far more difficult for someone like KT to mobilize the players, with only hot air and promises as collateral. A players association, organized ahead of time, could have been more insistent on things like written guarantees and actual, genuine, real, audited escrow accounts and various other player safeguards.

With someone like KT, "put up or shut up" is the only reasonable negotiating strategy. Trusting and groveling, followed by "hoping and praying" won't work with shady characters. Every one deserves a chance, but most businesses start new relationships as "Collect on delivery, no credit terms", until the person paying the bill is a PROVEN payer.

A players association could have done the "bad guy" front end work, and left the players with their hands clean and no ill will against them. As it turned out, they had to individually keep silent, again, "hoping and praying" that they would get paid. That's not a very intelligent long term strategy, IMO.
 
Support the UPA

SlimShafty said:
A solid foundation started by the pro players is vital to the health and future of the sport, PLEASE someone make an effort to get a players association together. I know it's going to be very hard, but it has to happen.

This has to take place regardless if the IPT continues or not, you need a president and each country should have head representatives to report to, once formed things such as what constitutes a pro player can be established, a yearly dues can be set up in players fund with player board members and countries voting on how best to use funds and build the starting foundation we so need!!

Pool needs this more now then ever before! in the start dues can be very small, say $10, but it's so important for players to have a voice on all tours and how things take place, right now players are being led around by the promoters and so called non profit and a trade association, most of the smaller promoters are pretty darn good, but the players still need to unify and have a single voice.
Click to expand...

There are 153 billiard organizations in the world. Divided into several World Regions. The WPA sent out a letter warning all billiards organizations about the IPT but nobody listened. Everyone attacked the WPA because people were blinded by the "bling bling" Kevin was promissing.

Nonetheless, U.S. Players still have an option. They could go back and support the UPA. This could be the start of a new beginning.

International Players have their respective countries' federation, association which mostly are affiliated to the WPA and/or WCBS but many of the players opted to ignore the WPA warnings. Now it seems they could all go back to their respective federations and support these organizations to get pool started again at a new level.
 
cuetique said:
If such an organization had existed, it would have been far more difficult for someone like KT to mobilize the players, with only hot air and promises as collateral. A players association, organized ahead of time, could have been more insistent on things like written guarantees and actual, genuine, real, audited escrow accounts and various other player safeguards.
Click to expand...

Your post is thougtfully written and seemingly logical, and yet, I just can't bring myself to believe that the players had any chips to bargain with at the time of the IPT's inception. If KT had said, "on the IPT we'll have multi-million dollar prizze funds but those funds will not be escrowed in advance of each event," do you really think he'd have had any trouble rounding up 150 pro quality players to play his tour? As long as 150 players were willing to chance it, his tour would have happened. KT knew he held all the aces and played his hand accordingly.

One would have thought that the WPA was the one orgnaization that had some bargaining power, but KT had no trouble shoving them and their demands out of the way. On what basis is one to conclude that a players organization would have had more success?

I agree that a players organization is needed, but do not agree that it would have made much difference when it came to dealing with a businessman with Trudeau's track record.
 
sjm said:
I agree that a players organization is needed, but do not agree that it would have made much difference when it came to dealing with a businessman with Trudeau's track record.
Click to expand...
From that perspective, it would seem the missing ingredient is not the aparatus of an organization, but the wispier concept of genuine player unity. The silver lining in all of this is perhaps players will stand shoulder to shoulder with their representative organizations in the future -- and not incur large expenses and undertake career diversions -- until tangible legal structures are in place to prevent another Trudeauesque boondoggle.

I'm not particularly hopeful that anyone will be able to get the "cats" of professional pool to herd, but until/unless they do, they'll be suckers for the next setup. :D
 
cuetique said:
From that perspective, it would seem the missing ingredient is not the aparatus of an organization, but the wispier concept of genuine player unity. The silver lining in all of this is perhaps players will stand shoulder to shoulder with their representative organizations in the future -- and not incur large expenses and undertake career diversions -- until tangible legal structures are in place to prevent another Trudeauesque boondoggle.

I'm not particularly hopeful that anyone will be able to get the "cats" of professional pool to herd, but until/unless they do, they'll be suckers for the next setup. :D
Click to expand...

Nice post. Well said.
 
Unity seems to be a problem...also there is no recognisable WORLD WIDE orginization...just smaller regional associations...
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sjm said:
Your post is thougtfully written and seemingly logical, and yet, I just can't bring myself to believe that the players had any chips to bargain with at the time of the IPT's inception. If KT had said, "on the IPT we'll have multi-million dollar prizze funds but those funds will not be escrowed in advance of each event," do you really think he'd have had any trouble rounding up 150 pro quality players to play his tour? As long as 150 players were willing to chance it, his tour would have happened. KT knew he held all the aces and played his hand accordingly.

One would have thought that the WPA was the one orgnaization that had some bargaining power, but KT had no trouble shoving them and their demands out of the way. On what basis is one to conclude that a players organization would have had more success?

I agree that a players organization is needed, but do not agree that it would have made much difference when it came to dealing with a businessman with Trudeau's track record.
Click to expand...


SJM, you beat me to this post. I was going to reply with something very similar.

Here's what I envision might have happened, in order:

1. KT refuses to put the money in escrow.

2. The players organization refuses to sanction/play.

3. KT says "OK, I'll take the best players not in this silly organization".

4. Sigel will correctly tell him that Joe Q. Public will not be able to tell the difference between a high Open level player and a pro player (and he'll be right).

5. KT threatens to take the best players not in the players association.

6. Efren, Thorsten, and the other 80 players who have a decent chance to make life-changing money threaten to renounce their membership in the player association so they can play.

7. The player association smells its own destruction and "somehow" manages to sanction the event even without the money in escrow.

8. Back to where you started, but now KT has the blessing of the player association.

- Steve
 
Steve Lipsky said:
SJM, you beat me to this post. I was going to reply with something very similar.

Here's what I envision might have happened, in order:

1. KT refuses to put the money in escrow.

2. The players organization refuses to sanction/play.

3. KT says "OK, I'll take the best players not in this silly organization".

4. Sigel will correctly tell him that Joe Q. Public will not be able to tell the difference between a high Open level player and a pro player (and he'll be right).

5. KT threatens to take the best players not in the players association.

6. Efren, Thorsten, and the other 80 players who have a decent chance to make life-changing money threaten to renounce their membership in the player association so they can play.

7. The player association smells its own destruction and "somehow" manages to sanction the event even without the money in escrow.

8. Back to where you started, but now KT has the blessing of the player association.

- Steve
Click to expand...


Exactly. Here is a direct quote from KT

"It's interesting what happened," Trudeau says. "I put up all the money and do all the work for my events, and some guy from Australia [World Pocket Billiard Association President Ian Anderson] calls and says I need to pay him $150,000. I said, 'What are you? The mafia?' He tells me that this fee will make my event 'sanctioned.' I don't consider that a good value.

"He goes on to say that if I don't pay the sanctioning fee, none of his players will play in my events. I told him all that means is that his players will all stay broke. The cold reality of the situation is that if none of the top players participate, no one outside the billiard world will notice. I'll have Joe Smith, 'The Greatest Player on Earth,' on TV winning a million bucks."

It is from this interview and fun read in retrospect.
http://www.internationalpooltour.com/ipt_content/news/article6.asp
 
Steve Lipsky said:
SJM, you beat me to this post. I was going to reply with something very similar.

Here's what I envision might have happened, in order:

1. KT refuses to put the money in escrow.

2. The players organization refuses to sanction/play.

3. KT says "OK, I'll take the best players not in this silly organization".

4. Sigel will correctly tell him that Joe Q. Public will not be able to tell the difference between a high Open level player and a pro player (and he'll be right).

5. KT threatens to take the best players not in the players association.

6. Efren, Thorsten, and the other 80 players who have a decent chance to make life-changing money threaten to renounce their membership in the player association so they can play.

7. The player association smells its own destruction and "somehow" manages to sanction the event even without the money in escrow.

8. Back to where you started, but now KT has the blessing of the player association.

- Steve
Click to expand...
What you present really hurts. Truth often does.
 
I'm not saying said organization could have prevented this mess, but a guy like KT should have never been needed in the first place, pool should have had the BCA as the backbone of the US, but it's nothing now. So this has to happen the players at some point have to take a pro active approach, forget about the what ifs of the IPT. They have been told from all bodies what to and what not to do, and they have nothing at all to fall back on (who is the spokesman player for the US??? or is the spokesman for the UK, Germany??? what players are the board of the WPA?

I know many players are friends and certainly could try something. Sure it's going to be hard, nothing that last and works is easy to do, and yes it will have it's breaks and failures, but it's really the only way to make a solid foundation, you can't have a board like the WPA and certainly not the BCA rule the pool world as the players just wait until another millionaire comes along claiming to be the savior of pool.

And at this point just going back to the same old ways is more of a problem then a solution for the long run. The so called (none profit) WPA is still not the answer and has it's own agenda, and certainly the BCA is not the answer it's a trade association doing things for it's board members own good. The board doesn't have any players on it, even the Olympic commit y was amused and said well you have to have at least one player on the board, so now we have cuesports or something to that effect, I don't know and frankly don't care what the BCA says or does since the BCA is nothing even close to a founding body of pool and should not even have the hall of fame, it made it's own decisions and the players and people who had paid into were left without a voice.

Something will need to be done to create a real pro tour with only touring pro's that have to play in X number of events and can earn a living at it. What we have now is a mis mash of tours and basically any one with the cash can enter most of these events and compete with pro's. There is no guidelines, no rhyme or reason to who can enter or what is or what isn't a professional pool player, the entire system is a somewhat of mess, but of course it's all we got and the players are lucky enough to have many great small promoters who do try to add some money to the players pockets and I would hope some of those promoters would have a part in some sort of unified pro tour.
 
SlimShafty said:
I'm not saying said organization could have prevented this mess, but a guy like KT should have never been needed in the first place, pool should have had the BCA as the backbone of the US, but it's nothing now. So this has to happen the players at some point have to take a pro active approach, forget about the what ifs of the IPT. They have been told from all bodies what to and what not to do, and they have nothing at all to fall back on (who is the spokesman player for the US??? or is the spokesman for the UK, Germany??? what players are the board of the WPA?

I know many players are friends and certainly could try something. Sure it's going to be hard, nothing that last and works is easy to do, and yes it will have it's breaks and failures, but it's really the only way to make a solid foundation, you can't have a board like the WPA and certainly not the BCA rule the pool world as the players just wait until another millionaire comes along claiming to be the savior of pool.

And at this point just going back to the same old ways is more of a problem then a solution for the long run. The so called (none profit) WPA is still not the answer and has it's own agenda, and certainly the BCA is not the answer it's a trade association doing things for it's board members own good. The board doesn't have any players on it, even the Olympic commit y was amused and said well you have to have at least one player on the board, so now we have cuesports or something to that effect, I don't know and frankly don't care what the BCA says or does since the BCA is nothing even close to a founding body of pool and should not even have the hall of fame, it made it's own decisions and the players and people who had paid into were left without a voice.

Something will need to be done to create a real pro tour with only touring pro's that have to play in X number of events and can earn a living at it. What we have now is a mis mash of tours and basically any one with the cash can enter most of these events and compete with pro's. There is no guidelines, no rhyme or reason to who can enter or what is or what isn't a professional pool player, the entire system is a somewhat of mess, but of course it's all we got and the players are lucky enough to have many great small promoters who do try to add some money to the players pockets and I would hope some of those promoters would have a part in some sort of unified pro tour.
Click to expand...

Some of us smaller Promoters do care and would jump at an oppritunity to be involved in some sort of unified pro tour.
I feel that there should be some qualification system or at least a classification system which would dictate who might participate.

One thing the IPT did prove to me is that pool, now is an international sport. An international Pro Tour can be much more than anything before and offer far more diversity than ever before.

Nothing is more difficult to unify than Independents who no, no differently. Our labor unions have proven this for decades. The players need something to call their very own. Something they will take pride in and be proud to be a part of. Someone very special will have to put it together, sell it, and then keep order in the court room.

IMO, the players despite what we see and don't hear, want rules to follow and some sort of structure. More and more players speak out about gambling and hustling not being the way to go. Too many highs. Too many lows. Very little middle ground from which most stable people operate.

Finally, who is going to fund this venture or any related ideas? It would be expensive to create, Market, and maintain.

A wise older man approached me last December and said that now would be the perfect time to create a pro tour. He further stated that once the IPT folded, the players would be ready to listen to something solid and reasonable.

Just my thoughts.
Lewis Jones
 
They could call it ...

The 'New International PoolPlayers Association' or NIPPA for short.

We are going to Nippa ya ankle, we are going to NIPPA ya nose!!! .... lol
 
cuetique said:
TAP TAP TAP

If such an organization had existed, it would have been far more difficult for someone like KT to mobilize the players, with only hot air and promises as collateral. A players association, organized ahead of time, could have been more insistent on things like written guarantees and actual, genuine, real, audited escrow accounts and various other player safeguards.

With someone like KT, "put up or shut up" is the only reasonable negotiating strategy. Trusting and groveling, followed by "hoping and praying" won't work with shady characters. Every one deserves a chance, but most businesses start new relationships as "Collect on delivery, no credit terms", until the person paying the bill is a PROVEN payer.

A players association could have done the "bad guy" front end work, and left the players with their hands clean and no ill will against them. As it turned out, they had to individually keep silent, again, "hoping and praying" that they would get paid. That's not a very intelligent long term strategy, IMO.
Click to expand...



"Eureka" very good post.

Islandboz
 
SlimShafty said:
A solid foundation started by the pro players is vital to the health and future of the sport, ... .
Click to expand...
Like the PPPA, the PBTA, the PCA or the UPA? Or the organization that the players tried to start in the 1950's that was (reportedly) squashed by a table company?

The track record is that the US male pool players are incapable of forming a viable organization.

There is already an international organization in place, and pro players in countries other than the US take it seriously. That organization is about to hold a World Championship as advertized with the payout as advertized and with live TV to millions of viewers, as advertized. I attended one such event that had 60 hours of live TV.

In the US, by contrast, the powers that be can't even organize a US national pool championship, except for the Juniors.
 
An impossible dream.

Besides, you are asking the wrong people. Not all that many pros here.

You, or some energetic person, would have to go to pool tournaments where the pros play and ask them. Compile a list of eligible pros with their e-mail and snail mail addresses. Question them and see how interested they are in a union and how much they would pay in membership and monthly dues.

Once they realized you wanted to get money from them then it would be over. They don't need no union.

A pool players organization is really the impossible dream.

Oh wait, there is one.

The WPBA

That looks like a pretty good one for the men to pattern their's on. Of course it didn't do much to save the women from the IPT. Not yet anyway.
 
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