Someone Seeking Glenn's Expertise on Pockets

mchnhed said:

Glenn,

There is a guy asking how to correct the size and angles on a 5" pocket.
I recommended you because you have the most knowledge of how a Pocket should play.

Please see his post and see if you can help him out.

He's just a private CGIV table owner that wants to verify his pockets are built correctly. He says he is willing to pay for your time.

See his link at: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5964265&postcount=31

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How a pocket 'Should' play is all a matter of opinion.. You have stated that Glen has "the most knowledge of how a pocket should play", though that statement is flawed. How could anyone have 'the most knowledge of how a pocket should play'? Some just have stronger opinions than others. Glen has the knowledge of table construction and the resultant effects of pocket design to form his opinion. But, it is still just an opinion.

Gather 100 pool players in a room, and they will likely all have a different opinion. Glen is no different, regardless of the knowledge that he has.

With that being said, here is my opinion:

You can really change the way that a pocket plays, simply by changing the angles or hardness of the facings. Having said that, I like to keep my angles consistent, regardless of mouth opening. I also prefer the use of 3/16" 60A neoprene facings. Harder facings tend to make the pocket play too dead for my liking. Softer facings will rattle balls excessively, or have a tendency to fire rejected balls across the table. I hate that.

For a Brunswick table, I generally prefer a 4 3/4" pocket, at 141° x 12°. The 12° downward angle will accept well hit balls, but may hang those which are poorly hit. If you want it to play a little tougher, tighten the opening to 4 1/2". If you want it to play easier, increase the downward angle to 13-14°.

Glen's test for an acceptable pocket is to freeze a 3 ball combination to the long rail. Shoot at it, and fire the combination down the rail, into the pocket. A good playing pocket 'should' accept that ball.

Keep in mind, the cleanliness of the cloth will have a huge effect on how a pocket plays. Dirty cloth always makes the pockets play tighter. Fresh cloth will make even tough pockets play like buckets.

mchnhed said:

Quote: How could anyone have 'the most knowledge of how a pocket should play'?

Question: How could anyone have the most knowledge on any subject?
Nips the bud of discussion on any subject.

Why ask questions? There's too many opinions.
Everybody is right. No one is wrong.
There are no wrong answers.
It all depends on what you want.
Do it the way you want.

No wonder Pocket Billiards (and Society) is a Rudderless Ship headed towards the rocks.

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Should Ernesto quit doing pockets the way he does them ?
Just follow Diamond's specs ? 4 1/2 141* ?


Are all baseball diamonds the same size ?
Are all bowling alleys spec'd out the same ?

There are different kinds of pool rooms. There are purely recreational ones. There are action rooms. Should they have the same size pockets ?
At Hard Times, the tournament room tables have much tighter pockets than the juke box room tables . Should they all be the same ?

mchnhed said:

Yes. Baseball Diamonds are the same size.
Yes. Bowling Lanes are the same size.
Why not pool table pockets?

Different kinds of Pool Rooms?
I have only one in my town.
How do I know what type of tables it has?
From the name of the establishment? If it has the word "Recreational" or "Action" in it?

Why 4-1/2"? Who changed the standard and why?
Again..... one tournament has 4-1/2", another 4-1/4", another 4-5/8".

4-1/2" is too small for most ball bangers.
I want a True, Correctly designed 5" pocket standard.
Question: What size were the pockets in the early 1900's?

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Dude, 5" corners have slowly disappeared after the Simonis cloth started taking over the market .
You can even watch video of pro tournaments when they were using Mali cloth .
They had generous corners.
Then they started tightening the pockets during the PBT days in the mid 90's when they started using Simonis. I remember Don Mackey talking about it .
They even banned the jump cue and limited the players to two cues.

EXACTLY! Set a standard and call it a day! One standard no matter what table no matter what room. Standardize the game. It's all over the place right now.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

mchnhed said:

Quote: How could anyone have 'the most knowledge of how a pocket should play'?

Question: How could anyone have the most knowledge on any subject?
Nips the bud of discussion on any subject.

Why ask questions? There's too many opinions.
Everybody is right. No one is wrong.
There are no wrong answers.
It all depends on what you want.
Do it the way you want.

No wonder Pocket Billiards (and Society) is a Rudderless Ship headed towards the rocks.

Click to expand...

You asked the question. I'm sorry that my responses don't meet your standards.

As it stands today, there are way too many variables across the market. There is no set standard for table design. There is no governing body to enforce any standards. About the closest you will currently find is the WPA. Good luck to you, in getting anyone to enforce anything.

Since the players don't really know how a table 'should' be, how can you expect the pool hall owners to care? Since they don't need to worry about any standards imposed upon them, they have no obligation to hire table technicians who can perform the necessary work to implement the changes required to standardize the tables. This is the reason for so many hacks in this business.

Question: What size were the pockets in the early 1900's?

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Some were 4 1/2". Some were 5". This is nothing new. Of course, the difference back then, generally had more to do with the width of the pocket irons.

Why the reduction of pocket size since the 90's?

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Since the widespread use of worsted cloth, which plays much faster, it requires a lot less force to move the cue ball around the table. With the ability to hit shots softer, ball pocketing accuracy has greatly improved.

Couple that with the fact that 9 ball has far surpassed straight pool in popularity. 9 ball has a much faster pace. Tighter pockets add a higher degree of difficulty, which slows the game down.

What you are looking for has already been established:
http://wpapool.com/equipment-specifications/

Again, good luck in getting anyone to enforce it.

mchnhed said:

My point exactly.
Why the reduction of pocket size since the 90's?
Set a standard for all pockets and leave it.

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Let's make all road speed limits the same.
Let's make all coins the same diameter.
Let's make all golf holes the same length.
Let's make all bicycles the same height.
Let's make all the NFL footballs deflated.
Let's make all pool table pockets 3 balls wide.

Who wants 5" corner pockets? No one I know.

.

We can't get a Pro Tour in the US and you want a standard for every table in the US.

Good luck with that.

mchnhed said:

Quote: How a pocket 'Should' play is all a matter of opinion.
So.... there is no "correct design" for a pocket?


Pockets in "my opinion" should be more regulated and a "standard" setup and enforced for all tables.

They should not be 4-1/4" Pockets at one Tounament and 4-3/8" at another, then 4-5/8" at another and finally 5-1/8' or 5-1/4" Pockets on open play pool hall tables.

Set a pocket size standard and enforce it.
I suggest 5" correctly designed Pockets.

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There is no such thing as a perfect pocket size that will work on every pool table built and sold, and yes i do know pockets and the effects they have on balls being pocketed, as well as Mark Gregorey does, while not knocking anyone elses knowledge of pockets and their design, but a lot of their knoweage they got from me as well over the years. There's a reason Diamond tables have standard 4 1/2" corner pockets and 5" side pocket that besides the fact the Greg Sullivan wanted to try and set a standard pocket opening, and I'd be willing to bet no one knows the main reason why, no matter how many tables they've worked on, or how good of a table mechanic they feel they are. Pockets vary in size like cars vary in the size of the tires they drive on, there is no such thing as a one tire fits all rims. Just as drag racing tires work best on the drag strip, they don't work worth a shit driving down the freeway in the rain....make sence? The only way to create the exact same pockets on all pool tables, is to build the rails to have the exact same corner and side pocket design in the rails, and i don't mean pocket opening. I'm talking about the difference between #6 pocket irons, Gold Crown casting, Gandy pocket casting, antique pocket irons, no pocket hardware like Diamonds....the variable designs go on and on, like all the different rims for all the different tires, for all the different vehicles they're mounted on. Well, players new and old, experienced and inexperienced all vary as well. The knowledge i have allows me to design pockets to the customer I'm doing the work for, based on their skill level of playing, and their understanding of their pool table design. So, though yes, i consider myself an expert in my field of work, the reason i didn't answer your question in the first place....is because there is no correct answer to your question.