Junior Players Not Welcome in Atlantic City

TeamCastillo

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Part I

My family and I don’t post much. We spend much more of our free time at pool halls (where we don’t have online access) than we spend on the computer at home, and besides, we tend to be private people. The story I’m about to tell is more personal than we usually share and long to boot, but please bear with me as it needs to be told.

Why does it need to be told? Well, it’s not that my husband and I wasted our money and time and were grossly disrespected in the process of trying to attend the final of a tour we’ve followed for two years (since our son took up the sport). Although that is in fact what happened, and it shouldn’t have, we’re adults, and we’ve had worse – although thankfully not from anyone else in the pool community!

No, it’s not that. It’s what happened to our son. It’s what I saw on his face as a result of the way he was received when he entered the venue. No junior player in our sport – or any sport - should ever be embarrassed and humiliated the way our son was last Saturday. He went in looking forward to watching and supporting his favorite local players, and instead was treated as if he had peed on the carpet. He kept his head up admirably and walked out without a word, but he was completely crushed and on the verge of tears. That is, to put it as mildly as possible, absolutely unacceptable.

No child should experience that, and no mother would let that pass without comment. That is one small reason I’m writing. Another small reason is that when there are issues within a community, the members of that community have a legitimate interest in knowing what happened simply because they are fellow community members.

That’s two little reasons why the story needs to be told. But it’s the third reason that’s the biggie, and it is this: I’m speaking here about negative treatment of a junior player. That should concern anyone with an interest in the future of the sport – which hopefully is anyone who plays it seriously – whether or not you’re personally involved with juniors specifically.

Here’s why: In a sport like pool, which struggles in terms of both finances and image, junior players are a very important resource and part of the community. If we don’t attract juniors and give them positive experiences, they won’t play the sport, the finances will further suffer, and the sport will further erode. Secondly, if we don’t make a positive and welcoming place for young people within the community, we can’t represent the sport as family friendly, and the sport overall will continue to have the negative image problems of association in the mind of the general public with gambling, drinking, drugs and worse. Again, this will negatively affect opportunities to play the sport. In the end the losers will be those who love the sport. That’s me and my family, and if you’re reading this, it’s probably you too.

Many people have spoken to my family and I about the importance of attracting and keeping juniors, seeing that our son has a serious interest in playing. They have been glad to see it, have talked of their own desire to encourage juniors, and have encouraged our son.

Anyone who shares such sentiments and sees their wisdom should take note of what happened Saturday to one of the NYC area’s active junior players.

That covers why I’m talking, and why you should care. Now I’ll move on to who we are, and exactly what happened.

The three of us first walked into a local hall together a little over two years ago, played a little bit, and found that we really enjoyed the sport and the local community. Our son was 10 at the time. We found ourselves going back to play together, then looking for more and more outlets for our new interest. First my husband then my son started playing the weekly handicapped tournament at the local hall, then we joined the APA – TAP for the boy, since there’s no local junior APA - went to our first Valley Forge Expo (2005), and started following the Blaze Tour (it had another name back then which I don’t recall at the moment), which visited our local hall, Rockaway Billiards in Rockaway, NJ.

Watching two of our young friends, also from Rockaway Billiards, play in the junior divisions at the Expo in 2005 really got our son interested in getting involved (although they are both a little older than he is). He had been playing for four or five months at the time, but by the next year he was ready to play in his first Expo, and is planning to play again this year. In the meantime he’s continued to take advantage of the local leagues (most improved TAP player his first year), plays in the local handipcapped tournaments (several wins and shows, even now that he’s progressed to giving weight to older players), and although at this stage it’s just for practice we’ve entered him several times in smaller senior open 9-ball events (he gets games of course, and has taken a match here and there, to the delight of the regulars). And of course we’ve taken him to innumerable local tour stops so that he can watch fine playing in person and he can meet the players.

We’re lucky to live in an area where we have several high quality halls that host stops on various tours regularly, and our son has had the opportunity to watch and meet just about all of the best players in the area. The tour we’ve followed most frequently over the two years he’s been playing has been the Blaze tour, since it stops at three different halls that are all within a short distance of us (including our home hall), plus a couple others we can get to with a little effort. Many of the regulars on that tour know our son on sight and enjoy seeing him at the stops. Many of them, including a number of professional players, have taken the time to spend a few minutes with him encouraging his interest and giving him tips. The players on the Blaze tour are mostly great people and have been very good to our son, for which my husband and I are thankful.

It was also at the Blaze tour that we met another young gentleman player who has become a favorite practice competitor of our son’s. The boys met at Castle Billiards in the summer of 2005, and ran into each other regularly on various stops throughout 2005 and 2006, and at last year’s Expo. Since the boys enjoyed playing together so much at those times, our family went and stayed near him and his family for a weekend recently so the kids could have practice time at their local hall. We’re hoping to return his family’s hospitality by having them stay with us soon and check out Rockaway. It’s been nice for the boys to have a contemporary around the same age and level. We always look forward to seeing this young man and his father – a Blaze tour player – and were looking forward to seeing them this past weekend in addition to our anticipation of enjoying the finals of the tour.

It was also at a Blaze tour stop that we first met Ernie, the proprietor of Atlantic City Billiards. I gather from his actions this weekend that he doesn’t remember having met us, or what transpired when he did. However, we did indeed meet him at PrimeTime Billiards at a Blaze tour stop in 2005. He was watching our son play – ironically, I believe the two boys were playing together on that occasion - and struck up a conversation with me and my husband. He told us that he had opened or was opening a place in Atlantic City, and was looking at the Blaze tour with an eye to being a tour stop host. We thought that would be kind of cool, and we’d probably like to check that out since it’s close enough for a weekend trip, and it would be fun to visit Atlantic City. Since we had been following the tour for a while, we of course knew the tournament director, Jose. We told Ernie we’d introduce him to Jose and wished him luck negotiating. Ernie told us he’d love to see us come down to his place – “bring your son, any time.”

We didn’t think much about Ernie or that conversation again until we saw on the Blaze schedule the following year that Atlantic City Billiards was indeed hosting stops. We thought that was great. It’s a bit over 2 hours one way from us, so we knew if we went to a stop there we’d stay over. That’s not normally feasible with our schedule and finances, but when we saw that the 2 day Blaze final was going to be there, we planned to go. We were really looking forward to seeing the finals, maybe taking a few minutes to go into AC, and checking out Ernie’s place since we’d never been there and had talked with him that time and introduced him to Jose. It was all good, and we were happy and excited making our preparations and driving down.

It took us just over two hours to drive down, and we checked into a hotel nearby. When we were ready, we grabbed our cues and headed over to the hall, same as we’ve done every other one of the few dozen times we’ve been to a Blaze tour stop.

This one was different. We walked into the hall, looked around to get our bearings, and saw lots of familiar faces. We had been inside maybe 90 seconds, had exchanged greetings with a few people, and were standing talking with a couple friends from our local hall who were having lunch, when Ernie came over and without any preamble said to my husband and me regarding our son, in an extremely offensive and condescending tone, “I’ve already told several people and I’m telling you - he can’t be in here. I’ll give you five minutes and then you have to get him out of here.”

To be clear, he did not take us aside, he did not initiate any kind of discussion regarding who we might be or how we got there, he did not offer any kind of apology for any misunderstanding, and he spoke to us in a tone that was indescribably supercilious and arrogant. He spoke about my son apparently without any idea who he was, and within his hearing, as if my son’s very presence were offensive to his sensibilities.

My 12 year old son is far from stupid. He heard what was said and he was very much aware that this person just publicly negated, in front of numerous people he looks up to, the legitimacy of his participation in the sport, and in fact treated him as if he were somehow socially unacceptable. He didn’t say a word. He turned around and walked out, and stood in the freezing wind outside on the sidewalk, waiting. I’m proud of the way he held it together – but I saw his eyes, I saw his face, and I know what he felt - and it is NOT ok to do that to a 12 year old.

Right there, without discussing the merits of the policy at the root of it (we were subsequently told that nobody under 16 is allowed in Atlantic City Billiards), the fact that that policy was arbitrarily enforced, or the lack of that policy being communicated in any manner beforehand – all of which I will get to - Ernie’s handling of his communication with my husband and myself was completely unacceptable and its consequences for my son are a BIG problem.

But wait - it just gets worse.

(continued in Part II…)
 
(Part II)

Part II

Clearly, my husband and I were shocked and dismayed. We had just driven over two hours and paid for a hotel room. All three of us are familiar faces on the Blaze tour, we have always come as a threesome (except for my missing last year’s final to attend a funeral – but my husband and son were there), and we have always been warmly welcomed at each hall we’ve been to. Ernie himself had invited us to see his place way back when. Last but certainly not least, we were looking forward to spending the weekend as a family and seeing some good pool, and our son was looking forward to seeing his “pool buddy” and getting some practice in with him before the Expo in March. To be greeted in such a hostile manner and told to leave certainly made our jaws drop. To see our son upset in the manner that he was certainly greatly aggravated the problem.

I’m sure it was apparent that we were upset. It seems to me that that’s understandable. Nevertheless, we did try to discuss the – obvious – issue. We attempted to explain that our son was a player, that he’s participating in the Expo, that he has followed the Blaze tour for two years, that he’s regular partners with the other young gentleman I mentioned earlier (who was in the hall at that moment), that we had just driven over two hours and paid for a room, etc. It should have been clear to any thinking person that a policy designed to keep disruption to a minimum (if that is in fact at the root of it – which was never explained to us at all) would not be at all applicable in the case of our son as an individual.

None of this made any difference, nor did the tournament director and a handful of players going to Ernie to vouch for our son. No, the response my husband and I got from Ernie for at least attempting to rectify and explain the situation was – and I’m quoting – “I’m not taking any shit from either of you.” Yes, he actually cursed at us for attempting to show that he was in error in not relaxing the rule for our son as he had done for our son’s friend. There was no “I understand you’re upset and I apologize, but I can’t make an exception.” No, instead, he cursed at us. I still can’t believe it, really.

It seemed there was nothing we could do. Our bright, happy, 12 year old, a serious player who had just spent hours in the car, cue case by his side, excited about spending the weekend immersed in his favorite sport, was going to be denied entry to the venue based on nothing but his chronological age, and embarrassed and humiliated to boot, with no rectification and no apology, and we couldn’t stop it from happening. Clearly we were angry, and we said so. Either of us certainly could have said more, but we would never cause a disruption that would negatively affect the players in the final, since they are the point of the sport. Even though our son was not accorded the respect a player deserves by the owner of this venue, we would not respond in kind. We have more class than that.

We went back to the hotel, gathered our things, then got back in the car and drove over two hours back north. The mood on the drive back was very different from the happy anticipation of the trip down. Our son was so upset that he hardly said a word for a couple of hours. And that is just not ok.

This issue never had to get to this point. Many things could have been done differently and weren’t.

I’m not going to argue the merits of the policy itself, although I question the wisdom of telling the players their families are not welcome to support them during a tournament, regardless of what you do the rest of the week. I will say it’s not the norm – our son has not been refused entry to any other event in any other venue in the two years he’s been playing, certainly not with us right at his side. And if you’re going to have a policy that’s not the norm, it should certainly be well communicated. We didn’t expect it, since Ernie himself told us “bring your son down.” Jose, the Blaze tournament director, did not know about it. It wasn’t mentioned on the phone to me when I called to get information about the event. And the hall does not appear to have a website. So how are people supposed to know about this?

Considering the lack of communication, it’s not surprising that there would be issues where people would show up with family members under 16. So what do you do then? Do you make exceptions, or not? We know that at least one exception was made – our son’s friend was there in the hall. That certainly implies that the policy is flexible and opens the door to argument.

If you’re going to make exceptions, on what merits do you base those exceptions? We were told that since our son’s friend was entered in the final itself, it was ok for him to stay. Does that make sense? Considering his father was playing, our young friend was very likely to play a couple of sets and then be watching while his father went farther, probably into the 2nd day. So unless you’re saying the boy can stay while he’s playing, and then must leave when he’s finished (which was *not* the case), the exception isn’t based on the fact of his playing the games – because for most of the time he’s there, he won’t be playing, he’ll be watching. So that’s not it.

Is it that he paid the fee to enter the final? No, because when we offered to pay the entry fee for our son (and forfeit it, since we arrived after the draw), we were told that that would not be sufficient. Going back to the communication issue, had we known that entering our son in the final itself would address the problem, we might have driven down earlier and done so, but since the policy wasn’t communicated, we arrived after the start and were told it was too late for that option. But no, it’s not the money, because we offered to pay anyway and our offer was rejected.

So if it’s not watching vs. playing, and it’s not the fee, there is no real basis for making any distinction between my son, who was told to leave, and his friend, who was allowed to stay. Both would be watching most of the time. We would gladly have paid the fee. That would make them even in all respects after the first three hours or so of play – but that was not acceptable to Ernie. And that makes no sense.

I’m glad our son’s friend was allowed to stay. It’s an appropriate decision to allow a serious young player to participate in an important final, whether as a participant or as a spectator. But as for making a distinction between my son and his friend as players and members of the community, there is none. Although Ernie clearly does not know either of them and didn’t want to hear it, the boys play together for practice and in competition. Both should have been allowed to be a part of the event, in whatever capacity. Any distinction made between the two of them at this point is artificial and arbitrary – they are both wonderful young men who bring a lot of potential to the table, and that’s all that should matter. Nevertheless, this policy was applied differently to each of them.

So communication of the policy is a problem, and enforcement of the policy is arbitrary. How do you tell a young player and his family about your arbitrary enforcement decision regarding your uncommunicated policy? Do you respect a young player’s feelings and privacy by taking him and his family aside and speaking to them politely, or do you embarrass and humiliate him by confronting him and his family in a hostile manner in front of the room at large? Then, when the family is naturally shocked and upset at your hostility in communicating your previously unknown, arbitrarily enforced policy, what do you do? Do you try to compromise, or smooth things over, or apologize for the misunderstanding or their wasted effort in attending? Or do you curse at them, telling them you’re not going to “take any shit?”

The whole incident was appalling, and trying to resolve it was pointless. So we turned around and drove back.

Want to hear the punch line? The Blaze tournament director, Jose, is looking into putting together a junior tour, and Ernie has expressed interest in hosting stops. Are you kidding me?! As the parent of a junior player, I can tell you if my child is arbitrarily barred from your hall during other events, there’s no way he’s going to show up for your junior tour stop. There are plenty of halls which appreciate his regular business. I’ll support those, and encourage other parents of juniors to do the same. Unbelievable!

We salvaged the weekend as best we could – which was pretty darn well in the end. We didn’t go straight home from AC - we went to Comet Billiards in Parsippany, which was hosting a Joss tour stop. We saw some great players and some great matches, and our son was treated warmly and well by all, as usual. He was even personally invited by the Joss tour director to participate in a major event in February – ironically, to be held at a casino. We appreciate the invitation, and we’ll probably bring him.

We even got to see our young friend and his dad on Sunday. They stopped at Comet on their way back from AC, and the boys were able to play together. The young man’s father told me he had gone to Ernie himself after we left to ask him what the deal was, and Ernie told the boy’s father that his situation is “different” because his son is “a player.” First of all, as I explained, these two boys are contemporaries, and Ernie had the opportunity to know and act on that, but chose not to. Secondly, even if they weren’t, any young player who shows up with a serious interest in being part of the sport should be welcomed and respected, regardless of his (or her) current level of play. They’re the future, and they deserve better than this from the day they first pick up a cue and express a desire to learn.

I have been very impressed with the overall warmth and the welcoming atmosphere of the pool community in general, and particularly thankful and happy for the way our son has been treated since he began to play. The way people watch out for him and help him on his way is just wonderful and my husband and I as parents are grateful for it, and happy to encourage him to be part of the community.

This incident stands in stark contrast to everything we have experienced so far, and I believe it should be taken under advisement by serious players and community members. Please continue to watch out for the juniors, and do not allow anyone to treat them with less than respect, warmth and welcome. They’re an important resource for the sport – and besides, they’re kids. Please, help ensure no young player is ever made to feel as my son was made to feel on Saturday by Ernie at Atlantic City Billiards. I you do see that happen, please, do not let it pass unremarked.

Thanks for your time.

MD for Team Castillo
 
This whole story sickens me. I am so sorry that this family was treated so disrespectfully. There may be another side to this story, but I doubt it is a pretty one either.

Just know that many adults who own poolrooms are not like this Ernie fellow. Even if he had a problem with minors, he could have handled the communication far differently. In the long run, he will pay the price with lost clientele and a failing business. I have seen this scenario before, where an owner drives away all their business with a bad attitude. And then they lament their failing business.

I look at it this way. How miserable it must be to be this guy. You are the lucky ones who have a healthy outlook on life. Consider yourself fortunate in comparison. Remember, Ernie only represents himself and not the sport. Every barrel has it's rotten apples. And we certainly have ours in Pool.

Thank you for having the courage and taking the time to share your experience on here. It does make a difference. I hope your son continues to enjoy this great sport and is not dissuaded by one bad experience. I plan to go to the U.S. Open this year. I'd love to meet your son there and maybe hit a few balls with him.
 
I am shocked by the treatment you and your family received at the Blaze Tour finals. It is unforgivable.

I attended many tournaments where junior players were allowed in a pool room, which served alcohol. Sometimes the pool rooms will request that the underage player leave the premises by 8:00 p.m. because of drinking laws. However, if the underage player is accompanied by a parent, then some establishments will allow the underage player to stay.

Jose, if you read this thread, you need to rectify this problem or, in the alternative, find another pool room to host your events.

I am literally disgusted at how this young player was treated. There is no excuse.

JAM
 
TeamCastillo said:
...Thanks for your time.

MD for Team Castillo

Thank you for posting your experience at the Atlantic City Billiards.

I sent you a PM (private message) and look forward to your reply! :)

JAM
 
I agree, I'm having a tough time seeing any possible "other" side on this one on any level.




You're much cooler than my mom. My mom made me play violin.:eek:







.
 
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I was planning a trip to AC sometime in April. Guess ACB will be off my list of stops! What a ja^ka$$!!
 
Oh, AC lowered it down to 16. The last time I was there it's "18 to party, 21 to drink." They are generally very strict down there.
 
It would be nice to see the BLAZE tour withdraw having tournaments at that particular venue, regardless of how much money Ernie dumps into the tour.

The guy obviously doesn't deserve to have pool players in his place spending money, and it would be a eye opening example to the pool room owners who victimize patrons. Talk about bad business. I commend TEAMCASTILLO for the adult manner in which they handled the situation.

If i had a child who was a pool enthusiast, and some room owner was cursing me out and making my child feel horrible cause he didn't want my child to participate, I think i might have snapped.

Jose, you don't need this type of publicity for the tour, especially when it has already alienated one up and coming player's whole family and might cause other enthusiastic up and coming players to just not even bother.

This needs to be fixed.
 
I'm sorry this happened to your family,And I hope your son will continue to play the game.Don't let one's ignorance get in the way of playing this great game.
 
I had a similar situation come up when I was younger. The manager of the pool room actually walked over and told us that we had to leave because I was under 16 at the time. It was the middle of the day and hardly anyone was there at the time. My dad tried to explain that he just wanted to hit a few balls with me for fun, and the guy literally started pushing us out the door. I used to play in pool halls that served alcohol after my dad talked to the owner/managers of the establishments and let them know that I just wanted to learn the sport and better my game. Needless to say, that word of this incident got around and his business started dwindling little by little. I'm not saying that it was totally as a result of this, but many people were disgusted at how we were treated.
I want to thank you for sharing this story and tell your son to keep his head up. I may not follow the tour as closely as you guys, but I agree that the tour director needs to find a way to rectify this situation.
 
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MD, first off thank you for taking the time to write that. I can only imagine that while you were portraying what happened to all of us, it must have been nothing short of reliving the experience as a whole. Secondly before I get into the meat of my post here, I'd like to compliment you on your writing, and I (as well as I'm sure everyone else on here) would certainly like to read more of it! In particular maybe some updates to how your sons game is progressing and accomplishments he has achieved along the way. I'm very interested in that aspect of it, becuase when I do have kids, I hope that I can encourage them to have the same passion for the game that so many of us have attained.

Now upwards and onwards with regards to this jackass, and his pool room. This is going to sound kind of weird, but follow it with me till the end and I think you'll see where I'm going with it. This guy probably did you a favor. I felt you just lean back in your seat and think "What?" I'm a guy that likes to take a look at everything in life, and see the possitive in it. Your son is 12 years old now, and not that long ago in American history he'd be old enough to be looking after/defending the household when the father is away. In today's times we look at a 12 year old as a helpless child that we need to "protect" from the harms of the world no matter how insignificant they maybe.

The owner of this poolroom acted like a jackass, and he did wrong by you and yours there's no denying that. On the brightside though, your boy was put in an adverse situation, and you got the opportunity to see how he'd react to it. He handled it like a champ, and in that very act showed Ernie that he's not a 12 year old boy, but rather a 12 year old man. Your 12 years of raising this child, and instilling values culminated into a 5 second situation of "I've told others and now I'm telling you, HE CAN'T BE IN HERE!" Your son didn't break down and cry, he didn't act like a boy, he acted responsibly and did the only right move a 12 year old boy in his position could do. He walked away with his head held high. He proved not only to Ernie, but to you and his father that he was up to the challenge. Most importantly though, if I had to guess he probably learned something about himself. Part of being a man (albeit a young one in this case) is fighting your own battles, even if a silent protest is all that is involved.

Part of my point being, let him relish in his silent victory, and becareful of the path you tread. Becuase nothing will strip a person of his manlihood faster then his mom going to bat for him. In my opinion, you should let him write a post saying something along the lines of how he didn't appreciate the way he was treated, and how he regrets the lack of foresight by the room owner to not be given a chance to come to an ammicable agreement. Your son had an opportunity to show his true colors, and he did. While the incident certainly isn't a good one, this should be a moment that you reflect back too with pride becuase you now know you have done your job as a parent. With any luck at all he will continue on his path, and one day win one of Ernie's tourny's. That way as he's being handed the trophy and the check he can lean over and say something witty like "Do you remember when you kicked me outta here for not being a player?"

At the end of the day Ernie (it sounds like) acted innapropriately, and unfortunately it sounds as though it's not a mistake that had been made, but rather a character flaw on his part. That's something your not going to be able to change, so why try? If the tour your participating in goes through his pool hall, I'd strongly recomend GOING to it. Just don't buy anything while your there, and with any luck at all your son will win it. I could think of no sweeter irony personally.


Now onto the second portion of my post..

By reading AZ Billiards, and practicing pool in the afternoons it's very easy to get the impression that society in generals perception of the game is all wrong. The booze, the drugs, the gambling, hustling, etc.. etc.. Is all just some hollywood fiction, or maybe an image of times past. Let me give you my point of view with regards to that. It seems there is three types of people in the sport nowdays. Those that are wanting pool to be a respectable sport and contributing towards that, those that relish the "underworld" of pool and long for the days of ole, and those that just don't know anything about it nor do they care enough to bother. The 1st two are the ones I want to focus on here for the sake of my post, largely in part becuase they have something in common. That thing in common is that the highly respectable sort, and the lowly gamblers can both have players that can shoot the lights out.

When we talk about the future of pool and what's best for it the argument is always brought up by the straight laced guys that gambling is bad, booze is bad etc.. But the problem with that argument is ultimately some of the best pool players in the world do in fact come from that side of it. I don't know most of them personally but I'd wager 90% of the male pro pool players, do, or did come up through the ranks matching up in pool halls. So the question is how could making the sport straight laced be better in the long run, when all these champions come out of the "bad side" of it? That "image" that the public has of pool is very much alive and well today. The upstanding people of pool tend to put there head in the sand and ignore it, at the same time praising pro players like Efren, Parica, Bustamante etc.. The reality of it is though, that these people do in fact gamble, and are more then willing to play throughout the night in a 10 ahead set, and believe me if your house, and your future well being was on the line not a one of them would have any troubles with their conscience when they took it from you. That being said, if you think this game/sport is all cotton candy and puppy dogs, I think you better take a closer look.

Head down to your local halls a little later on at night (I'm assuming you practice in the afternoons and early evenings becuase of his age). It's highly likely that when your son gets older he's going to have some experiences in his pool playing career that will trump this one ten fold. In my opinion (and this is just my opinion) to fully understand the game/sport at some point he's going to have to look at and participate in and understand both sides of pool to progress beyond a certain point. That being said if you want to protect him from the evils in life you'd better get him out now while there's still time and he's only looked adversity in the face once. If you have faith in what you have created, then hope and pray that he will look adversity in the face many times again and that when it is all over, he will triumph as he did this time, heal his wounds, and chaulk (pun intended) it up to another of life's lessons.

To make a long story short.. While this game can be alot of fun, and on the surface everything can be peachy, if you look deeper that old smokey pool room with the sharks circling is still very present. With any luck at all, he'll get nibbled on and learn from it without actually getting bit, but make no mistake you are swimming with sharks everytime you walk into one of these places.

DJ
 
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9Ball_JJ said:
I had a similar situation come up when I was younger. The manager of the pool room actually walked over and told us that we had to leave because I was under 16 at the time. It was the middle of the day and hardly anyone was there at the time. My dad tried to explain that he just wanted to hit a few balls with me for fun, and the guy literally started pushing us out the door. I used to play in pool halls that served alcohol after my dad talked to the owner/managers of the establishments and let them know that I just wanted to learn the sport and better my game. Needless to say, that word of this incident got around and his business started dwindling little by little. I'm not saying that it was totally as a result of this, but many people were disgusted at how we were treated.
I want to thank you for sharing this story and tell your son to keep his head up. I may not follow the tour as closely as you guys, but I agree that the tour director needs to find a way to rectify this situation.

In reference to your little sign...no i can't go somewhere else and post. Take your little sign and...never mind. isn't worth the aggrivation..and what gives you the right to post other people's info like that?????...and no i can't take a joke.......mike
 
TeamCastillo said:
Part II

Clearly, my husband and I were shocked and dismayed. We had just driven over two hours and paid for a hotel room. All three of us are familiar faces on the Blaze tour, we have always come as a threesome (except for my missing last year’s final to attend a funeral – but my husband and son were there), and we have always been warmly welcomed at each hall we’ve been to. Ernie himself had invited us to see his place way back when. Last but certainly not least, we were looking forward to spending the weekend as a family and seeing some good pool, and our son was looking forward to seeing his “pool buddy” and getting some practice in with him before the Expo in March. To be greeted in such a hostile manner and told to leave certainly made our jaws drop. To see our son upset in the manner that he was certainly greatly aggravated the problem.

I’m sure it was apparent that we were upset. It seems to me that that’s understandable. Nevertheless, we did try to discuss the – obvious – issue. We attempted to explain that our son was a player, that he’s participating in the Expo, that he has followed the Blaze tour for two years, that he’s regular partners with the other young gentleman I mentioned earlier (who was in the hall at that moment), that we had just driven over two hours and paid for a room, etc. It should have been clear to any thinking person that a policy designed to keep disruption to a minimum (if that is in fact at the root of it – which was never explained to us at all) would not be at all applicable in the case of our son as an individual.

None of this made any difference, nor did the tournament director and a handful of players going to Ernie to vouch for our son. No, the response my husband and I got from Ernie for at least attempting to rectify and explain the situation was – and I’m quoting – “I’m not taking any shit from either of you.” Yes, he actually cursed at us for attempting to show that he was in error in not relaxing the rule for our son as he had done for our son’s friend. There was no “I understand you’re upset and I apologize, but I can’t make an exception.” No, instead, he cursed at us. I still can’t believe it, really.

It seemed there was nothing we could do. Our bright, happy, 12 year old, a serious player who had just spent hours in the car, cue case by his side, excited about spending the weekend immersed in his favorite sport, was going to be denied entry to the venue based on nothing but his chronological age, and embarrassed and humiliated to boot, with no rectification and no apology, and we couldn’t stop it from happening. Clearly we were angry, and we said so. Either of us certainly could have said more, but we would never cause a disruption that would negatively affect the players in the final, since they are the point of the sport. Even though our son was not accorded the respect a player deserves by the owner of this venue, we would not respond in kind. We have more class than that.

We went back to the hotel, gathered our things, then got back in the car and drove over two hours back north. The mood on the drive back was very different from the happy anticipation of the trip down. Our son was so upset that he hardly said a word for a couple of hours. And that is just not ok.

This issue never had to get to this point. Many things could have been done differently and weren’t.

I’m not going to argue the merits of the policy itself, although I question the wisdom of telling the players their families are not welcome to support them during a tournament, regardless of what you do the rest of the week. I will say it’s not the norm – our son has not been refused entry to any other event in any other venue in the two years he’s been playing, certainly not with us right at his side. And if you’re going to have a policy that’s not the norm, it should certainly be well communicated. We didn’t expect it, since Ernie himself told us “bring your son down.” Jose, the Blaze tournament director, did not know about it. It wasn’t mentioned on the phone to me when I called to get information about the event. And the hall does not appear to have a website. So how are people supposed to know about this?

Considering the lack of communication, it’s not surprising that there would be issues where people would show up with family members under 16. So what do you do then? Do you make exceptions, or not? We know that at least one exception was made – our son’s friend was there in the hall. That certainly implies that the policy is flexible and opens the door to argument.

If you’re going to make exceptions, on what merits do you base those exceptions? We were told that since our son’s friend was entered in the final itself, it was ok for him to stay. Does that make sense? Considering his father was playing, our young friend was very likely to play a couple of sets and then be watching while his father went farther, probably into the 2nd day. So unless you’re saying the boy can stay while he’s playing, and then must leave when he’s finished (which was *not* the case), the exception isn’t based on the fact of his playing the games – because for most of the time he’s there, he won’t be playing, he’ll be watching. So that’s not it.

Is it that he paid the fee to enter the final? No, because when we offered to pay the entry fee for our son (and forfeit it, since we arrived after the draw), we were told that that would not be sufficient. Going back to the communication issue, had we known that entering our son in the final itself would address the problem, we might have driven down earlier and done so, but since the policy wasn’t communicated, we arrived after the start and were told it was too late for that option. But no, it’s not the money, because we offered to pay anyway and our offer was rejected.

So if it’s not watching vs. playing, and it’s not the fee, there is no real basis for making any distinction between my son, who was told to leave, and his friend, who was allowed to stay. Both would be watching most of the time. We would gladly have paid the fee. That would make them even in all respects after the first three hours or so of play – but that was not acceptable to Ernie. And that makes no sense.

I’m glad our son’s friend was allowed to stay. It’s an appropriate decision to allow a serious young player to participate in an important final, whether as a participant or as a spectator. But as for making a distinction between my son and his friend as players and members of the community, there is none. Although Ernie clearly does not know either of them and didn’t want to hear it, the boys play together for practice and in competition. Both should have been allowed to be a part of the event, in whatever capacity. Any distinction made between the two of them at this point is artificial and arbitrary – they are both wonderful young men who bring a lot of potential to the table, and that’s all that should matter. Nevertheless, this policy was applied differently to each of them.

So communication of the policy is a problem, and enforcement of the policy is arbitrary. How do you tell a young player and his family about your arbitrary enforcement decision regarding your uncommunicated policy? Do you respect a young player’s feelings and privacy by taking him and his family aside and speaking to them politely, or do you embarrass and humiliate him by confronting him and his family in a hostile manner in front of the room at large? Then, when the family is naturally shocked and upset at your hostility in communicating your previously unknown, arbitrarily enforced policy, what do you do? Do you try to compromise, or smooth things over, or apologize for the misunderstanding or their wasted effort in attending? Or do you curse at them, telling them you’re not going to “take any shit?”

The whole incident was appalling, and trying to resolve it was pointless. So we turned around and drove back.

Want to hear the punch line? The Blaze tournament director, Jose, is looking into putting together a junior tour, and Ernie has expressed interest in hosting stops. Are you kidding me?! As the parent of a junior player, I can tell you if my child is arbitrarily barred from your hall during other events, there’s no way he’s going to show up for your junior tour stop. There are plenty of halls which appreciate his regular business. I’ll support those, and encourage other parents of juniors to do the same. Unbelievable!

We salvaged the weekend as best we could – which was pretty darn well in the end. We didn’t go straight home from AC - we went to Comet Billiards in Parsippany, which was hosting a Joss tour stop. We saw some great players and some great matches, and our son was treated warmly and well by all, as usual. He was even personally invited by the Joss tour director to participate in a major event in February – ironically, to be held at a casino. We appreciate the invitation, and we’ll probably bring him.

We even got to see our young friend and his dad on Sunday. They stopped at Comet on their way back from AC, and the boys were able to play together. The young man’s father told me he had gone to Ernie himself after we left to ask him what the deal was, and Ernie told the boy’s father that his situation is “different” because his son is “a player.” First of all, as I explained, these two boys are contemporaries, and Ernie had the opportunity to know and act on that, but chose not to. Secondly, even if they weren’t, any young player who shows up with a serious interest in being part of the sport should be welcomed and respected, regardless of his (or her) current level of play. They’re the future, and they deserve better than this from the day they first pick up a cue and express a desire to learn.

I have been very impressed with the overall warmth and the welcoming atmosphere of the pool community in general, and particularly thankful and happy for the way our son has been treated since he began to play. The way people watch out for him and help him on his way is just wonderful and my husband and I as parents are grateful for it, and happy to encourage him to be part of the community.

This incident stands in stark contrast to everything we have experienced so far, and I believe it should be taken under advisement by serious players and community members. Please continue to watch out for the juniors, and do not allow anyone to treat them with less than respect, warmth and welcome. They’re an important resource for the sport – and besides, they’re kids. Please, help ensure no young player is ever made to feel as my son was made to feel on Saturday by Ernie at Atlantic City Billiards. I you do see that happen, please, do not let it pass unremarked.

Thanks for your time.

MD for Team Castillo



MD/ Team Castillo........you should briong him to the Joss Tournament at Turning Stone Casino.... He would love it. With alot of the top pro's there and all. Hexk, you should also let him play in it. Would be a thrill of a life time for him to play the top players................mike
 
What a tool that Ernie is, I usally go there 5-6 times a yr when I'm in the S.Jersey area. He's got a nice room with about 30 tables.

I am suprised they don't allow anyone under 16 ,especially with their parents supervision, they dont even serve alcohol and are smoke free too.
 
Last edited:
cueball1950 said:
In reference to your little sign...no i can't go somewhere else and post. Take your little sign and...never mind. isn't worth the aggrivation..and what gives you the right to post other people's info like that?????...and no i can't take a joke.......mike

I knew someone would get bent over that little thing the first time I saw it. :D

It's only YOU that sees YOUR info. When I or anyone else reads that fellow's posts, the bit at the bottom shows me MY info, them THEIR info.

It's just a little scripting trickery, is all. It's harmless. :P
 
ScottW said:
I knew someone would get bent over that little thing the first time I saw it. :D

It's only YOU that sees YOUR info. When I or anyone else reads that fellow's posts, the bit at the bottom shows me MY info, them THEIR info.

It's just a little scripting trickery, is all. It's harmless. :P


Not to mention the fact that it shows just how easy it is to get a little information from you when you're surfing on the internet, AND YOU NEVER KNOW IT! He just showed ya a tidbit. Next I'll show you your last 5 credit card transactions and the full number used. HA! Just kidding! Or am I? :eek: :D :eek:
 
DON'T QUIT. Part 1

TeamCastillo said:
Part II

Thank you for writing this detailed note about your family's unfortunate experience. The experience is regretful but by your communicating this problem you have made the billiard community aware of this type of problem and for most of us, we are shocked. We will be more cognizant of the potential problem and will try to avoid this being one in the future in our respective local communities.

The one lesson that your son should learn from all of this is that you don't quit just because you had a very serious and unfortunate setback. If he quits this sport that he likes now, you can expect that he will quit many other things in the future when trouble comes his way and that is inevitable.

Winners somehow find a way to continue in spite of all of the obstacles and from your letter, I expect that you and your husband are winners and that you will make sure that your son remains a winner, too.

Good luck in the journey and I hope it continues for all of you.

Warm Regards,
JoeyA
 
DON'T QUIT. Part 2

For Team Castillo:

DON'T QUIT

When things go wrong, as they sometimes will,
When the road you're trudging seems all uphill,
When the funds are low and the debtS are high,
And you want to smile, but you have to sigh,
When care is pressing you down a bit,
Rest, if you must --- but don't you quit.

Life is queer with its twists and turns,
As everyone of us sometimes learns,
And many a failure turns about,
When he might have won had he stuck it out;
Don't give up, though the pace seems slow---
You might succeed with another blow,

Often the goal is nearer than,
It seems to a faint and faltering man,
Often the struggler has given up,
When he might have captured the victor's cup,
And he learned too late, when night slipped down,
How close he was to the golden crown.

Success is failure turned inside out,
The silver tint to the clouds of doubt--
And you never can tell how close you are,
It may be near when it seems afar;
So stick to the fight when you're hardest hit-
It's when things seem worst that you mustn't quit.

Author Unkown.

Warm Regards,
JoeyA
 
Set a good example!

MD,
I have 4 children myself and all I would like to humbly suggest is that you simply teach your son to set a good example (sounds like you already have). This is much like housecleaning, it begins at home (easy for me to say because this guy didn't piss me off directly!). I agree wholeheartedly with DJ. Your son did the right thing and with proper guidance will persevere to do so. He will continue to run into many adverse situations in other areas. If you just leave this situation, then the pool hall owner will never have an opportunity to learn any better, and his attitude will prevail. Not that he will change anyway, but your son will be around a lot longer than he will. Remember: most things are as big as we make them, you shouldn't let a bone head ruin one more minute of your life than you can avoid. Both of these are true: chosing your battles is always wise, while there is a much greater statement to be made by overcoming this obstacle and continuing to tour (wherever the tour may take you). As a final overveiw, it really sounds like your sons' presence as a good example is neccessary. Gen. Colin Powell said that the one thing missing in our society today is a real hero. To put my slant on it, a true champion who sets a great example. Champions don't run away from a chance at victory, nor cringe at the aspect of doing the uncomfortable. It sounds like there will be plenty more voices to let this person know what a "gem" he is, yet true champions will persevere and overcome most every obstacle. If I were to leave every place that there was an "indescriminant person (polite version of A-hole)," I would have to play pool on the moon! Let your son Know that you support him wherever he goes and he'll just have to be amused at the "Richard Craniums" of the world. I will consider myself lucky to meet your son at this years Valley Forge Super Billiards Expo, Kent Davis
 
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