A
a_susie_cue
Guest
There are so many leagues out there with different rules for after the break. How do the az'ers feel about after the break?
IMHO, the spirit of the rules should be such that if you do the right thing, you should not be penalized.
The whole rule or take what you make.
I perfer to play you got what you make on the break.
I feel it is less confusing. Simply You made it you got it, unless you make some of each.
Please I don't want to here the it went down first rule.
Many bar players who claim open after the break don't relize that there are other rules that go along with it being open after the break. One of those being that cross combinations would be okay. Another being if you don't validate what you make it is still open. Cross combo still okay.
I perfer to play you got what you make on the break.
I feel it is less confusing. Simply You made it you got it, unless you make some of each. Please I don't want to here the it went down first rule.
Many bar players who claim open after the break don't relize that there are other rules that go along with it being open after the break. One of those being that cross combinations would be okay. Another being if you don't validate what you make it is still open. Cross combo still okay.
The entire game can be determined by the choice of solids or stripes. If the breaker is forced to accept the one he makes on the break, it nullifies the advantage of the break almost entirely.
"Many bar players who claim open after the break don't relize that there are other rules that go along with it being open after the break."
I was always of the understanding that it's the bar room players/bangers that play the "you get what you break" rules, and generally, rules that govern pro events along with most well organized leagues use the 'open after LEGAL break' rule.
The term legal break simply means pocketing a ball on the break, but I have to agree with the other poster that there's something not right about possibly being penalized with a tougher out after doing something right (a legal break).
Same goes for the CB in the kitchen rule with fouls. If you have only one ball and it's on the foot rail, your opponent committing a foul actually leaves you at a disadvantage if he/she fouls.
With rules like that, the person that wins will not always have been the better player, but more likely the luckier player.
dave
I was always of the understanding that it's the bar room players/bangers that play the "you get what you break" rules, and generally, rules that govern pro events along with most well organized leagues use the 'open after LEGAL break' rule.
The term legal break simply means pocketing a ball on the break, but I have to agree with the other poster that there's something not right about possibly being penalized with a tougher out after doing something right (a legal break).
Same goes for the CB in the kitchen rule with fouls. If you have only one ball and it's on the foot rail, your opponent committing a foul actually leaves you at a disadvantage if he/she fouls.
With rules like that, the person that wins will not always have been the better player, but more likely the luckier player.
dave
Dave, usually if you are playing in the kitchen on fouls you can spot your only ball rule goes with it. Or the closest one to the line if more then one.
I personally like the idea of taking some advantage away from the breaker.
I think the break is to much of a deciding factor in who wins.
I personally like the idea of taking some advantage away from the breaker.
I think the break is to much of a deciding factor in who wins.
I still think that rules like that leave too much of a luck factor in a game. Eliminating the luck factor as much as possible is the only way to REALLY find out who the better and smarter player is. I won't argue with your thoughts on trying to take some advantage from the break, but one of the true arts of great 8-ball players are their abilities to correctly read, plan, and execute the better group of balls.rackem said:Dave, usually if you are playing in the kitchen on fouls you can spot your only ball rule goes with it. Or the closest one to the line if more then one.
I personally like the idea of taking some advantage away from the breaker.
I think the break is to much of a deciding factor in who wins.
Spotting a ball from the foot rail and having to shoot from the kitchen helps to some degree, but I'm a traditionalist and believe that pool played at it's most respectable level should pretty much mean loss of rack after a foul. Which is why ball in hand in my opinion is way it should be played
I'm not a one pocket player, but other than the case in 9 ball where you intentionally pocket the 9 to avoid an easy combo and mostly likely only delay your loss, one pocket seems to be one of the very few games in which an intentional foul can actually serve as an advantage.
dave
Jude Rosenstock said:
Not only nullifies the advantage but in some cases makes having the break a negative thing. You can make a ball and be completely tied up and have the opponent with a wide open table.
If you make a ball on the break you should be rewarded with your choice. Take what you make is just wrong.
At the amateur level I think open after the break is a better rule, since it removes some amount of luck from the game. Making a ball on the break is always rewarded with an opportunity, rather than being a gamble which sometimes results in significant disadvantage.
At the pro level, however, I wonder if this would only lead to EXTREMELY frequent runouts from the first shot after the break. Matches might be decided by who had a higher percentage of dropping a ball on the break. I would think that being forced to play the suit they made would force the pros to try a more strategic game in the case where their balls are sitting much worse than their opponent's. I think it would lead to more exciting runouts (because on average they'd be more difficult), and more back-and-forth racks instead of a break-and-run derby.
-Andrew
At the pro level, however, I wonder if this would only lead to EXTREMELY frequent runouts from the first shot after the break. Matches might be decided by who had a higher percentage of dropping a ball on the break. I would think that being forced to play the suit they made would force the pros to try a more strategic game in the case where their balls are sitting much worse than their opponent's. I think it would lead to more exciting runouts (because on average they'd be more difficult), and more back-and-forth racks instead of a break-and-run derby.
-Andrew
I vote for Open after the break. If you made a ball on the break - you should be rewarded with choice at the table. The break is a mostly random event, and you should not be penalized for that, or made to shoot a particular set due to random events. Part of 8-ball is having a brain and choosing which set has the higher chances for success.
The only major organization that I know of that forces you to play what you make is the APA. I suspect that is for 2 very key reasons. 1] It is an equalizing factor. Higher handicapped players have an advantage in that they make better decisions as to which set to choose. Lower handicaps in that league are pretty much clueless and can barely hold the cue stick, let alone understand 8-ball properly. Playing what you make is a run-out killer to some degree. It stops a number of potential runouts by SL7's. 2] It is a time saving measure. The greatest amount of time is spent directly after a break (assuming you're playing the Open rule) analyzing both sets working scenarios and patterns trying to establish in your mind which one is best for the win. With play what you make, you just analyze how to deal with your set right off the bat.
The person who won the last game should break the next too in 8-ball. And have open table after break. If you are sitting in the chair and get stuck with the crappy set - that's too bad, you shouldn't have lost the last game.
The only major organization that I know of that forces you to play what you make is the APA. I suspect that is for 2 very key reasons. 1] It is an equalizing factor. Higher handicapped players have an advantage in that they make better decisions as to which set to choose. Lower handicaps in that league are pretty much clueless and can barely hold the cue stick, let alone understand 8-ball properly. Playing what you make is a run-out killer to some degree. It stops a number of potential runouts by SL7's. 2] It is a time saving measure. The greatest amount of time is spent directly after a break (assuming you're playing the Open rule) analyzing both sets working scenarios and patterns trying to establish in your mind which one is best for the win. With play what you make, you just analyze how to deal with your set right off the bat.
The person who won the last game should break the next too in 8-ball. And have open table after break. If you are sitting in the chair and get stuck with the crappy set - that's too bad, you shouldn't have lost the last game.
If a pool player woke up today from a 25 year coma? he would be lost playing with some of these rules. His 1st comment would be "It's always been you take what you make on the break." "What's this ball in hand stuff in 8-Ball?" would be the next question out of his mouth. His 3rd question, "What do you mean I can't smoke in here?" Then he would say "Someone please put me back in my coma!".
It depends on what you're trying to achieve...
Open after the break provides a much more noticeable advantage to the breaker and makes it much easier for a player to get a break and run. Thus, it tends to reward players who are primarily offensive minded.
You are what you make on the break will make the games last longer most of the time, and will make for more strategy. Some people may not realize that, because they play all offense. But just because you may not like the lay of the balls you got, does not mean the game is lost. You still made a ball, so you still have control of the table, before your opponent even gets a turn. You still have the option to utilize your turn to make the layout of the balls on the table more difficult for your opponent. Each turn you slow him down, provides another opportunity for you to change the lay of the table in your favor.
Obviously, many people will automatically jump on the bandwagon of open after the break. Either, because that's what they're accustomed to, or because they haven't truly weighed the pros and cons of both sides.
Open after the break provides a much more noticeable advantage to the breaker and makes it much easier for a player to get a break and run. Thus, it tends to reward players who are primarily offensive minded.
You are what you make on the break will make the games last longer most of the time, and will make for more strategy. Some people may not realize that, because they play all offense. But just because you may not like the lay of the balls you got, does not mean the game is lost. You still made a ball, so you still have control of the table, before your opponent even gets a turn. You still have the option to utilize your turn to make the layout of the balls on the table more difficult for your opponent. Each turn you slow him down, provides another opportunity for you to change the lay of the table in your favor.
Obviously, many people will automatically jump on the bandwagon of open after the break. Either, because that's what they're accustomed to, or because they haven't truly weighed the pros and cons of both sides.
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8 on the break
i have to agree with billykoda, but have to also include spotting the 8 on the break. 25 years ago in most bars if you tried the explain why you were not going to pay for the 8 on the break, most likely other things were going to get broken. the only thing you can do is ask what are the house rules. if you are playing in their house its their rules.
i have to agree with billykoda, but have to also include spotting the 8 on the break. 25 years ago in most bars if you tried the explain why you were not going to pay for the 8 on the break, most likely other things were going to get broken. the only thing you can do is ask what are the house rules. if you are playing in their house its their rules.
Cornerman said:
No. It's really very simple. After the break, it's very common to see one group be very runnable and the other group in clusters. If a ball has been pocketed, the shooter should have the right to choose the group that will give him the best opportunity to win. I don't see how a pushout will change any of this. If anything, it would only make the rules more complicated.
The rules change because of game evolution, when the majority make a conscious decision that the rules in effect need changing. That's why even 9-ball has gone through several changes, each one necessitating a further change to make things... "fair."MrLucky said:having to take what you made! The game was played this way from its inception why change the rules ? to make the game easier? if you do not like this part of the game maybe 9 ball is your game instead
IMO, it's clear that "take what you make" in 8-ball is grossly unfair. That being said, open after the break may be too much of an advantage. So, further tweaking of the rules is probably necessary if we're going to give 8-ball the respect it deserves.
Without evolving the game through rule changes and such, we'd still be playing it on the lawn with mallets.
Fred
