Jerry Forsyth's Essay on 9 and 10 ball

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RunoutalloverU

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It has been a long time comming, that someone with prestige and knowledge summed up in a succinct manner the problems with 9-ball. Well done Jerry. The soft break isn't the problem, the pros ingenuity isn't the problem, the game itself is the problem. I know change is slow in sports, e.g. instant replay, and pool is no different. But when you need to get things right, just like in other sports....get it right, no matter what it takes. 9-ball is not the NL hold em' that poker has, it is not the cadilliac of pool. And I would like to thank Jerry for making that crystal clear, for everyone to see.
 
10 Ball

You know, about 3 years ago, before all these 10 ball tournments started coming up I absolutely "refused" to play 9 ball with anyone that I thought was a good player. Everytime I matched up with good players (and I did regularly) it was too easy for them to break off the side rail and make the corner ball or the one in the side and it became an absolute joke... I got beat ahead sets by guys with perfect breaks that were not supposed to win and I beat guys that can give me the 7 playing even because I learned to break like that too....I decided that I would only play 10ball and break out the box with anyone that was considered a good player and over the next three years I could really tell who could play and who had weaknesses.. Kicks, banks, and safety play were more common during games then just running out. Over time, seeing the other aspects of the game then just "run out" pool really helped me improve my game because I saw that there were other options than just shooting.
I love this article and think its a great idea. I know I dont have much tournament experience but for my money its the only way to play....Lil Jon
 
Really love the post, but what is next. How will we as avid pool players change the sport. Will we start boycotting 9-ball. How do we make the transition?
 
pooljunkie4ever said:
Really love the post, but what is next. How will we as avid pool players change the sport. Will we start boycotting 9-ball. How do we make the transition?
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Gosh, I don't know, this is tougher than just singing the praises of a legend. I think that it will take time. We are just beginning to see the transition. We have to play it when we practice, play it when we gamble, and ask for it to be played in the local tournies. That might be it as far as the average player is concerned. Obviously Pros can make more an impact regarding it, and this maybe where not having a professional pool leauge comes in handy. Pros can kind of do what they like. And promoting a certain game they like is one of them. So we need the trickle down effect for this one I think. They just aren't going to make the races long enough in 9-ball to make a difference. So until 10 ball takes over, (as it looks like it has in Florida), we will just have to make subtle changes in things that we can control, and make what should be, happen.
 
Unfortunately there is a Down Side to switching to 10-Ball.

10-ball does require more skill than the average player has to compete with better players. Therefore what we have learned from promoting/holding 10-ball events is that less skilled players tend to not want to participate. This trend has driven event turnouts to lower and lower numbers and that is not good for the sport.

However, I for one do agree that 10-ball should be played in PROFESSIONAL TOURNAMENTS but I do not agree that most 9-ball events should switch to 10-Ball. Especially with the current frailty of our sports current position!

Mj

BTW... I did enjoy Jerry's article and see his points clearly.
 
MikeJanis said:
Unfortunately there is a Down Side to switching to 10-Ball.

10-ball does require more skill than the average player has to compete with better players. Therefore what we have learned from promoting/holding 10-ball events is that less skilled players tend to not want to participate. This trend has driven event turnouts to lower and lower numbers and that is not good for the sport.

However, I for one do agree that 10-ball should be played in PROFESSIONAL TOURNAMENTS but I do not agree that most 9-ball events should switch to 10-Ball. Especially with the current frailty of our sports current position!


BTW... I did enjoy Jerry's article and see his points clearly.
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Agreed, so then we use it for gambling, and pro tournies.
 
Whether it's nine ball or ten ball, there is a huge amount of luck on the break. This is true of all rotation games.

This is why both straight pool and one pocket are both better games than nine ball and ten ball. The opening break is a safety and the first good look at the table must always be earned.

If nine ball has to go, so does ten ball.
 
sjm said:
Whether it's nine ball or ten ball, there is a huge amount of luck on the break. This is true of all rotation games.

This is why both straight pool and one pocket are both better games than nine ball and ten ball. The opening break is a safety and the first good look at the table must always be earned.

If nine ball has to go, so does ten ball.
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This is both true and misleading. And if im right about slow transitions...which I am, 10 ball is our best bet, because its close to 9 ball, one-pocket will never, ever, be the dominate game in pool, period. I think that is painfully obvious. Straight pool....it could become more popular, but again never the dominate game. Its going to be a rotation game that will dominate, end of story. So we could just go to full rack rotation and be done with it, but I think thats out too (although my favorite). I know we all want Mosconi's game back in the limelight, but it just isnt going to happen, that time has past, and isnt comming back. So with that, play what you like, but as far as national and international popularity is concerned its going to be between 9 ball or 10 ball. And 10 ball is superior. So 10 ball it is.
 
RunoutalloverU said:
This is both true and misleading. And if im right about slow transitions...which I am, 10 ball is our best bet, because its close to 9 ball, one-pocket will never, ever, be the dominate game in pool, period. I think that is painfully obvious. Straight pool....it could become more popular, but again never the dominate game. Its going to be a rotation game that will dominate, end of story. So we could just go to full rack rotation and be done with it, but I think thats out too (although my favorite). I know we all want Mosconi's game back in the limelight, but it just isnt going to happen, that time has past, and isnt comming back. So with that, play what you like, but as far as national and international popularity is concerned its going to be between 9 ball or 10 ball. And 10 ball is superior. So 10 ball it is.
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There is no evidence anywhere that ten ball does a better job of weeding out the elite than nine ball. Switching to ten ball would have no impact on which players win tournaments. The cream rises to the top no matter what game is played.
 
I agree there is less luck in 10-ball than in 9-ball on break. After that it's the same game as 9-ball. The only thing that's going to make it harder to run out is tighter pockets...a lot tighter pockets. I think if you made the pockets a hair under 4" you wouldn't make a ball everytime with the weak or the power break.

As far as 14.1 goes (and that was my only game for years) it will never be back strong. People live at a faster pace now. They want insant results. One pocket is a great game but not enough people play it. Pool has a list of things going against it. Pool has to be played to be enjoyed by the average Joe...not watched. Johnnyt
 
sjm said:
There is no evidence anywhere that ten ball does a better job of weeding out the elite than nine ball. Switching to ten ball would have no impact on which players win tournaments. The cream rises to the top no matter what game is played.
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the better player doesnt always win in 9ball and while there are no statistics, money games suggest that 10 ball favors the better player more than 9ball does. the better players are more eager to match up in 10 ball and if required, are more comfortable giving spots in 10 ball. if you match up with a better player for money wouldnt you like your chances more at 9ball than 10 ball?
 
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I think 10 ball will be even better if we use call shot except the break. However I do have a question regarding call shot, are obvious shots require calling?
 
quanz said:
I think 10 ball will be even better if we use call shot except the break. However I do have a question regarding call shot, are obvious shots require calling?
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You Nailed it dude. You cannot have a "WORLD POOL CHAMPION" that doesn't call his shots.

The regular Joes simply don't buy it. that IMO is why pool has been in a decline since the 80's. (when Tom Cruise sold the majority on 9-ball) Joe six-pack who loves pool and plays several days a week has NO respect for slop pool.

The Pro's and A LOT of amateur's are good enough to call their shots. even in rotation games. I caught a clip online of a "spectacular" Efren shot. He missed his shot by a mile, blew his leave and slopped in the nine. the crowd cheered, but Efren looked embarrassed. I believe he was, Everyone on planet earth knew he should have lost that rack.

edit: If he calls that shot it's a shot for the ages, we all cheer, but as it is we will never know.

Calling your shot for a pro might only come into play once every 1000 racks, but one slop is too many, you can't claim to be the best in the world if your slopping in balls to win.

You just can't.
 
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good article by jerry.......however......do away with the fast cloth and the power break will reappear.
if you want smaller pockets....take up snooker.
until someone runs 8-10 racks every time they come to the table......leave the game alone.
it is still the best game and the best player will ultimately win the majority of the cash. same as in poker.
just because you are bored with 9-ball, dont make the up and coming players more confused with a newer or harder game. 9-ball will always be the next step for them. fast....easy to learn....fun.
 
The IPT chose 8 Ball for one of the biggest pool enterpises ever attempted. I'm not so sure they got that part wrong:)

Setting aside the personalities involved does anyone think that an IPT type concept would be any more likely to succeed were it to be 9 ball or 10 ball instead of 8 ball?

What do AZB'ers think would be the likely consequences for the pool industry if 8 ball were to be promoted to being the most prevalent and dominant pro tour game of choice and to being the most important of the world championships?

Interesting essay Jerry, thanks.
 
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