Does "spinning the ball in" increase your shooting margin of error?

jsp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As I've been playing more regularly the past few weeks, I've noticed that I've been subconsciously spinning more balls in for certain cut shots, where position isn't a big concern. When I say "spinning a ball in", I'm talking about applying outside english that not only compensates for any CIT (contact induced throw), but even additional outside english such that the extra spin actually throws the OB at a greater angle toward the pocket.

Why would I tend to do this? Here's an interesting thought. Does spinning a ball in actually increase your shooting margin of error on a cut shot (error in terms of where the CB can contact the OB to pocket the shot)? Compare this to the ideal case with zero friction. I haven't thought this through tremendously, but it seems to make sense that for certain conditions and cut shot angles, spinning a ball in might actually increase your margin of error. Any thoughts?
 

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jsp said:
As I've been playing more regularly the past few weeks, I've noticed that I've been subconsciously spinning more balls in for certain cut shots, where position isn't a big concern. When I say "spinning a ball in", I'm talking about applying outside english that not only compensates for any CIT (contact induced throw), but even additional outside english such that the extra spin actually throws the OB at a greater angle toward the pocket.

Why would I tend to do this? Here's an interesting thought. Does spinning a ball in actually increase your shooting margin of error on a cut shot (error in terms of where the CB can contact the OB to pocket the shot)? Compare this to the ideal case with zero friction. I haven't thought this through tremendously, but it seems to make sense that for certain conditions and cut shot angles, spinning a ball in might actually increase your margin of error. Any thoughts?

This is interesting. I think in absolutely extreme situations where the cut is paper thin, most professionals will hit center-ball and chop it right in. This is what I typically see among the better players in my room. However, there is the fairly thin cut that many will spin in (including Efren Reyes) and the argument for that has in part, to do with throw but also, you diminish the skid-factor, as well.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
jsp said:
As I've been playing more regularly the past few weeks, I've noticed that I've been subconsciously spinning more balls in for certain cut shots, where position isn't a big concern. When I say "spinning a ball in", I'm talking about applying outside english that not only compensates for any CIT (contact induced throw), but even additional outside english such that the extra spin actually throws the OB at a greater angle toward the pocket.

Why would I tend to do this? Here's an interesting thought. Does spinning a ball in actually increase your shooting margin of error on a cut shot (error in terms of where the CB can contact the OB to pocket the shot)? Compare this to the ideal case with zero friction. I haven't thought this through tremendously, but it seems to make sense that for certain conditions and cut shot angles, spinning a ball in might actually increase your margin of error. Any thoughts?
If you try to use perfect throw cancellation by using outside english, and you get the english slightly wrong, you will introduce a large error in the cut angle. This problem is worst if you have no draw or follow on the cue ball when it hits the object ball. If you want best repeatability, try rolling the cue ball without side spin.

Technically, the margin of error as far as the landing point of the cue ball on the object ball is not significantly increased by using outside spin, at least for normal cut shots. Shots near or beyond 90 degrees are an exception, obviously. If you do use outside english, you have squirt, swerve and the exact cancellation of throw to worry about.
 

Travis Bickle

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Part of what makes an action repeatable, well, is repetition, right? The more often you spin, the more they seem to go in ... and fewer problems with skid. But I'm no world-beater! When I stopped worrying about whether I might be spinning it too often, I felt like my game went up a ball. But as often as not I'll try to use only slight amounts of side ...
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Jude Rosenstock said:
This is interesting. I think in absolutely extreme situations where the cut is paper thin, most professionals will hit center-ball and chop it right in. This is what I typically see among the better players in my room. However, there is the fairly thin cut that many will spin in (including Efren Reyes) and the argument for that has in part, to do with throw but also, you diminish the skid-factor, as well.
Jude, I have honestly never seen a ball skid on thin cut shots.

What is odd is a lot of people, including me, shoot the 9-ball with a little inside b/c it is actually easier for me to aim the tip that way. Just aim the tip to the contact point and the 9-ball goes in (on slight angles only ).
Then a friend of mine, who is very close to Efren, shoots the 9 aiming dead center then pivots to the outside and shoots. Splits the pocket most of the time. Someone asked why he did that, he told the dude, " ok you can have the 7-ball". :D
For what it's worth Efren told me once, don't learn from me. I spin the ball too much. Go watch Parica.
All in all, if you hit off-center on the cb, s#!t happens a lot.
Parica, from what I've seen, almost always shoots the 9 with center soft punch stroke.
 

Hail Mary Shot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
it's the gear principle. it's kinda tricky becoz there is also a tendency that the OB will have a reverse bounce on the jaws (saw it a couple of times happened to me) and out or left hanging. if you will apply english, make sure that you pocket the OB straight in without hitting the jaws or simply perfect execution. the only logical reason for using english on a cut shot is for positional purpose done by experienced pool players who had mastered the principle of the throw.
 

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
yeah BHE....

JoeyInCali said:
Jude, I have honestly never seen a ball skid on thin cut shots.

What is odd is a lot of people, including me, shoot the 9-ball with a little inside b/c it is actually easier for me to aim the tip that way. Just aim the tip to the contact point and the 9-ball goes in (on slight angles only ).
Then a friend of mine, who is very close to Efren, shoots the 9 aiming dead center then pivots to the outside and shoots. Splits the pocket most of the time. Someone asked why he did that, he told the dude, " ok you can have the 7-ball". :D
For what it's worth Efren told me once, don't learn from me. I spin the ball too much. Go watch Parica.
All in all, if you hit off-center on the cb, s#!t happens a lot.
Parica, from what I've seen, almost always shoots the 9 with center soft punch stroke.

Aiming dead straight and then pivoting for the English is back hand english and it was Efren who first taught me to do it. It is the best way to apply english IMO. The only problem with it is that it is sooo accurate that you end up using english on almost every shot and you will decrease consistency slightly over learning to use less english, even BHE being as accurate as it is.
 

jsp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
If you try to use perfect throw cancellation by using outside english, and you get the english slightly wrong, you will introduce a large error in the cut angle.
Yes, I understand this and it makes sense.

However, I'm talking about using english that is more than what is needed for perfect throw cancellation. For these cases, the landing point of the CB on the OB would be thicker than the perfect throw cancellation case, since the CB is actually throwing the OB at a greater angle toward the pocket.

So here is my first order argument.

You have a certain cut shot, say a 45-degree cut shot to the pocket. You shoot the CB at the OB at a slightly thicker angle (thicker compared to the ideal, zero friction case), say at 42-degrees, but you spin the CB with excess outside english such that the CB throws the OB at a greater angle, sending the OB to the dead center of the pocket.

It should be apparent that you're already increasing your margin of error to a degree just by the fact that you are shooting at a thicker angle than the zero-friction case, since the margin of error increases the less cut angle you have.

Next, you have the exact same shot and you shoot the CB with the same speed and the same amount of spin, but this time you hit the OB slightly fuller than the first case, say at 40-degrees instead of the previous 42 degrees. For the zero-friction case, this two degree difference would translate to a two degree delta in the CB departure angle. But for the real world case with excess outside spin, the CB departure angle would only be less than two degrees.

Why? Because you're hitting the OB more full, and CB/OB throw would have more of an impact than the previous case. Therefore, friction would only make the change in departure angle be less than the two degrees for the zero-friction case.

One can even argue that because you're hitting the OB more full, the surface speed of the CB at the CB/OB contact point is greater than the initial case, providing even more torque on the OB throwing it even further, compensating even more for the initial hit error.

So at least for the case where you err on a fuller hit, you have three ways that spinning the ball in increases your margin of error...

1) Spinning the ball naturally makes you hit the ball thicker to begin with, and a thicker hit intrinsically increases your margin of error since your error goes up as the cut angle goes down.
2) The fuller hit transfers more of the CB oustide spin throw to the OB.
3) The fuller hit means that the CB surface speeds at the contact point is greater, providing more throwing force to the OB.

Before anyone jumps on me for point #3, I understand that it can be argued that the coefficient of friction can go down with higher surface speeds (which is why you have less apparent throw at harder no-english shots than softer shots). So there is probably not as much increase in error margin the faster you spin the OB.
 
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Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JoeyInCali said:
Jude, I have honestly never seen a ball skid on thin cut shots.

What is odd is a lot of people, including me, shoot the 9-ball with a little inside b/c it is actually easier for me to aim the tip that way. Just aim the tip to the contact point and the 9-ball goes in (on slight angles only ).
Then a friend of mine, who is very close to Efren, shoots the 9 aiming dead center then pivots to the outside and shoots. Splits the pocket most of the time. Someone asked why he did that, he told the dude, " ok you can have the 7-ball". :D
For what it's worth Efren told me once, don't learn from me. I spin the ball too much. Go watch Parica.
All in all, if you hit off-center on the cb, s#!t happens a lot.
Parica, from what I've seen, almost always shoots the 9 with center soft punch stroke.


I wasn't talking about the thin cut where you're chopping the ball in. I don't use any english on those. I'm speaking primarily of a cut around 20-30 degrees. Not THIN but definitely cutting.

I mean, no matter what you use, you're going to have a set of problems to deal with. Often times, it's about picking whichever gives you the least set of problems. Do you hit hard, soft, spin, center, top, bottom (when position doesn't matter). I can't say I have a general rule for this nor do I think any player is going to say that. There are times I'll hit it a certain way because through my experience (mine, not yours), I find that I've avoided more problems going X route than I have going Y or Z. There are plenty of people that strongly recommend hitting the ball soft enough so that it rolls in. I usually punch my final shots in. I find I'm more accurate when I'm hitting firm.


If someone puts up a diagram of a shot, I can then say with certainty how I will hit it and we can all post our reasons for our own approach.
 

George Fels

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First, I'd say that there are two ways of transferring English to the object ball. The spin you provide yourself, with an off-center cue-ball hit, will not last much longer than the object ball's first revolution. But what the experts call "collision-induced throw" - meaning spin that gets transferred to the OB via the cue ball's line of direction - lasts longer and can help you pocket balls at sufficiently reduced speed. I would agree with Bob Jewett: don't make thin cut shots any harder than you need to. GF
 

Jal

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jsp said:
...
1) Spinning the ball naturally makes you hit the ball thicker to begin with, and a thicker hit intrinsically increases your margin of error since your error goes up as the cut angle goes down.
2) The fuller hit transfers more of the CB oustide spin throw to the OB.
3) The fuller hit means that the CB surface speeds at the contact point is greater, providing more throwing force to the OB.
Jsp, I don't think there is any real advantage when you factor in the added complications of squirt and swerve.

Hitting thicker does reduce the "geometric" margin of error, but not that much. Throw compensation is pretty small as well. The greatest "automatic" correction to a cut angle error that throw provides is when the balls end up rolling across each other on a stun shot. Here you get the most variation in throw with variations in surface speed. For some cut angle A and english spin Wz, where V is the cueball's speed and R its radius, the relative surface speed between the cueball and object ball on a stun shot is:

Vs = Vsin(A) - RWz

If this surface speed isn't too great, the balls end up rolling during impact. In this case, 1/7'th of this surface speed becomes the sideways throw velocity of the object ball. Since the object ball's forward speed is Vcos(A), the throw angle T is:

T = Atan[(1/7)(Vsin(A)-RWz)/Vcos(A)] = Atan[(1/7)(sin(A)-RWz/V)/cos(A)]

For simplicity, let's assume that RWz/V=sin(A), so that the surface speed and throw would be zero if we actually cut the ball at angle A. But instead, we cut it at angle A' (keeping RWz the same). Now we have a throw angle T', and the difference is:

T' - T = T' - 0 = Atan[(1/7)(sin(A')-sin(A))/cos(A')]

So if we overcut what should have been a 30 degree cut by 4 degrees, the throw compensation would be:

T' - T = T' - 0 = Atan[(1/7)(sin(34)-sin(30))/cos(34)] = 0.58 degree

The correction is about 1/7'th of the cut angle error. Well it is something, but is it worth the squirt and swerve stuff? And you get even less correction if the cueball has draw or follow on it or the spin/speed ratio RWz/V is not very close to sin(A). Since that cosine in the denominator gets very small as you approach 90 degree cuts, it may seem like there might be a real advantage there. But the unfortunate fact is that you have to get the spin/speed ratio RWz/V closer and closer to sin(A) to get the balls to roll across each other. (I know you're not actually prescribing getting the ratio very close, but it gives us an idea of what the maximum correction can be.)

Interesting idea though, and maybe it bears further thought.

Jim
 
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Scaramouche

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Take a look at Clip 13 for an explanation of how spinning improves control of the cue ball

SNOOKER INSTRUCTION VIDEO
Understanding Modern Snooker ? Jack Karnehm
Part 1 ? Manufacturing and assembling a snooker table
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v2dQfwYIAw
Part 2 ? Marking, Installing Rails
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE0PQBY6d0Q
Part 3 ? Straight Cueing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sttfG5StNE
Part 4 ? Centre Ball Hit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoTCoCR_Ysk
Part 5 ? Alignment Feet Bridge Hand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJfHoXnUIiI
Part 6 ? Cue Hand Bridge Hand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8D8ZcWuiGE
Part 7 - Bridge Hand Equipment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCwquMHaI5E
Part 8 - Equipment Stance Drill Choosing A Cue Retipping
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6vrkz0zvT4
Part 9 - Cues Retipping Draw Shot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm6gnu0oioM
Part 10 ? Draw Follow Drag Stun English
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSDhurY1APA
Part 11 - English
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5cAtxVDF2I
Part 12 ? Massee Break Shot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPg1neRJmXI
Part 13 ? Controlling The Cue Ball
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYO-Acw1QAU
Part 14 - Cue Ball Control
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-dQJfFU6dE
Part 15 ? Cue Ball Control Aiming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWQgCxHLIB4
Part 16 ? Aiming Geography Etiquette
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aayiShDGiEs
Part 17 ? Etiquette Billiards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnVWAMXFsqE
Part 18 ? Billiards Trickshots
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD9oSAicPbI
 

JimS

Grandpa & his grand boys.
Silver Member
I was of the opinion that cit could be overcome by using a little "helping english".... not trying to throw the ball but maybe a 1/2 tip outside english.

Maybe I'm not understanding the term margin of error here. It seems to me that on any given shot you have a pocket that will take the shot that is only a given amount from the center of the pocket and a player can over or undercut the shot with or without english. If the shot player is trying to "spin the ball in " then he may throw it too thin to make the shot.

For most shots, except for those that have to be thrown in, I try to shoot aiming at some point within the pocket and use a little helping english for shots thicker than about 60 degrees. I don't think the ob throws at cut angles greater than that.

Am I on the right track here?
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JoeyInCali said:
Jude, I have honestly never seen a ball skid on thin cut shots...

Go wash your balls w/ dish soap and let them air-dry, if you want a show! It is crazy enough, without deez nutz jokes.

I think the prob w/ spinning the balls in all the time is that you do not get the same results when variables change.

I am a spinner trying to attain center ball. It is tough!
 

avmaster

Man of Reason
Gold Member
Silver Member
Spinning the ball

My mentor always told me to avoid "spinning" or applying english to the ball unless you were trying to avoid a scratch shot or looking to achive a difficult "position" shot after the cut shot. There are varibles, of course, but, as a rule, I don't spin those shots. I never lift the cue ball off the table, I don't do jump shots or masse'. Physics tells us there is an equal and opposite reaction to every action. It is true. he also told me "don't over think" your shots, so, i don't. It has stood me well for 40 years......:)
 

avmaster

Man of Reason
Gold Member
Silver Member
To the original question

Oh, yeah, to answer the question:D ..... I think it does increase your margin of error..:)
 

okinawa77

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I can relate

jsp said:
As I've been playing more regularly the past few weeks, I've noticed that I've been subconsciously spinning more balls in for certain cut shots, where position isn't a big concern. When I say "spinning a ball in", I'm talking about applying outside english that not only compensates for any CIT (contact induced throw), but even additional outside english such that the extra spin actually throws the OB at a greater angle toward the pocket.

Why would I tend to do this? Here's an interesting thought. Does spinning a ball in actually increase your shooting margin of error on a cut shot (error in terms of where the CB can contact the OB to pocket the shot)? Compare this to the ideal case with zero friction. I haven't thought this through tremendously, but it seems to make sense that for certain conditions and cut shot angles, spinning a ball in might actually increase your margin of error. Any thoughts?

I have found that I do the same thing. I tend to use more outside CB english on almost all my shots, but I have found that my winning consistency increasing using only center english. Even with center english you experience the effects of CIE when the CB and OB are close and extreme english and/or hard stroke is applied.
To answer your questions, IMO...yes, using additional spin does increase your margin for error. But I have found some ways to tune it in.
When I first get on a table, for using additonal spin, I have to take into effect the cloth, pocket size, humidity, ball cleanliness, ball wear, etc...
So, I will warm up using only dead center CB contact. Once I am pocketing balls consistently, then I start using center top and center low english. I note the effects on the OBs track lines because with each table, it may be slightly different. Once, this is dialed in, then using side english is my final dialing knob. Using dead center CB is the base/fundamental for applying english with accuracy. In many cases, dead center CB will acheive great pool shooting accuracy. The application of english will enable you to manipulate the CB's track which enables you to get better/easier shape on you next shot.
I know it seems that applying additional english will decrease your margin of error on some shots, but like Bob mentioned...their are other factors at play...like the cue balls reaction to the table/cue before it contacts the OB. There are adjustments for that, and Bob can explain those adjustments. I just know them vaguely, and make those adjustments kind of instinctively.

I indulge you to find a table with extremely slow cloth and/or dirty balls, and watch the CB/OB collisions and reactions. I have seen CIT on OBs using only dead center CB contact on small to large cut angles. I was, at one point, able to perform some seemingly impossible shots by manipulating the effects of such a table. For me, tuning in my application of english is an almost instinctual process that is used for each and every table I play on, but when it doubt of the playing conditions....I always rely on my fundamental of dead center english.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Bob Jewett:
... the margin of error ... is not significantly increased by using outside spin.
... If you do use outside english, you have squirt, swerve and the exact cancellation of throw to worry about.

In other words, there's a net loss of accuracy.

Preventing throw is also a net loss because you're adding a complex variable (squirt/swerve) to prevent a simple one (throw).

Preventing skid is also a net loss because you're adding a complex variable (squirt/swerve) to every cut shot in order to prevent a relatively rare problem.

pj
chgo
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Jaden:
back hand english ... is the best way to apply english IMO

It may be for high squirt cues (where the cue's pivot point is near the bridge), but probably not for lower squirt cues.

Even for high squirt cues I think back hand english is an approximation in most cases (not the precise adjustment you think it is) that the player subconsciously adjusts for final accuracy - like lots of aiming systems. Personally, for such an important adjustment I prefer to consciously train my subconscious to do it rather than leaving the whole process "in the dark".

pj
chgo
 
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