Bad Aim vs Bad Stroke
- Thread starter Dan White
- Start date
I consider this a very interesting question. Its one I asked myself some yrs ago after taking some stock in Allen Hopkins stroke, (or lack there of). I was very surprised at his accuracy.
We of course can't emulate exactly another players style, but after some experimenting, I have over the yrs. incorporated a complete "no backstroke" shot that I use most often after the opening break in 14.1 when I deem it necessary.
Where my accuracy used to be in the 60 to 70 percent range on those long opening shots from the end rail, after using the new approach, I'm much closer to 90 to 100 % on these.
My belief now is that many above intermediate players take for granted just how precise your stroke must be to hit what you are aiming at. So my vote goes for bad stroke causing more misses than bad aim.
We of course can't emulate exactly another players style, but after some experimenting, I have over the yrs. incorporated a complete "no backstroke" shot that I use most often after the opening break in 14.1 when I deem it necessary.
Where my accuracy used to be in the 60 to 70 percent range on those long opening shots from the end rail, after using the new approach, I'm much closer to 90 to 100 % on these.
My belief now is that many above intermediate players take for granted just how precise your stroke must be to hit what you are aiming at. So my vote goes for bad stroke causing more misses than bad aim.
the common perception is people miss because of the stroke. but personally for me it's the aim. some shots i am just not fully comfortable with the cut of the ball. if there was a ghost ball i could actually see where to send the cue ball i would be confident of pocketing any shot on the table. without english or top/bottom spin of course.
if you can pocket a straight in shot consistently then chances are most of your misses are down to bad aim. (excluding missing because of putting english on the ball etc)
if you can pocket a straight in shot consistently then chances are most of your misses are down to bad aim. (excluding missing because of putting english on the ball etc)
limited testing
Some limited testing I did awhile back seems to indicate that people don't hit their intended spot on the cue ball with nearly the accuracy that they assume they do. Aim? Stroke? Some of both? Simply a poor mental image of where the contact point of the tip meets the curve of the cue ball?
My bet is that this is where many a shot goes awry, a poorly hit cue ball, contact was not made where intended.
Hu
Some limited testing I did awhile back seems to indicate that people don't hit their intended spot on the cue ball with nearly the accuracy that they assume they do. Aim? Stroke? Some of both? Simply a poor mental image of where the contact point of the tip meets the curve of the cue ball?
My bet is that this is where many a shot goes awry, a poorly hit cue ball, contact was not made where intended.
Hu
Where is the "I don't miss" option???
I think when I miss it is usually an aiming issue........yet sometimes I do chicken wing some shots so IDK....... 50/50............?
I think when I miss it is usually an aiming issue........yet sometimes I do chicken wing some shots so IDK....... 50/50............?
I kind of wanted to throw this poll out there because, personally, I think there is a bit too much emphasis on aiming techniques/systems in pool forums. There's aiming, and then there's delivering the cue in a true line. Of those two, I think aiming is the easier one to learn simply by doing it. It took me a long time to conclude (for me) that I already know where to send the cue ball in order to pocket the ball. I know this spot pretty much immediately just by looking at the shot since I've been playing long enough (and I personally would be surprised if any pro player did it any differently). However, since nobody can get inside my body and tell me that my stroke isn't quite straight, or that my arm isn't really relaxed when I think it is, I think it is harder to achieve a really good, solid stroke. It's like you can't know what a good stroke is supposed to feel like if you've never executed one. Now, before you point out that video cameras can give you feedback on your stroke... that is true, they are a great resource, but there are stroke problems that are too small for a camera to see, yet big enough to cause a miss.
So I'm interested to see what others think, and whether the less or more experienced players seem to think their aim is a problem.
So I'm interested to see what others think, and whether the less or more experienced players seem to think their aim is a problem.
i vote bad stroke as well. Like 3andstop was saying with the no backstroke deal. I think pool and golf are alot alike in that the majority of your problems come from taking the stick back and forth, just like the problems that arise when you bring a golf club up and back (you get off balance, you shift, etc).
I use a minimal backstroke on a good majority of my shots and my accuracy is way up.....when i do need a fuller backswing for a shot i take special care in watching where im cueing to be sure i hit the cue where i really mean to......id say a good 90 to 95% of all my misses are stroke/not hitting where im aiming.
I use a minimal backstroke on a good majority of my shots and my accuracy is way up.....when i do need a fuller backswing for a shot i take special care in watching where im cueing to be sure i hit the cue where i really mean to......id say a good 90 to 95% of all my misses are stroke/not hitting where im aiming.
Dan White said:
From an experienced player I think more mises come from stroke, not aim. In my case at this time my aim is a problem because of cataracts. I am having my inner lenses replaced (IOL) which should allow me to see the balls clearly instead of looking through the fogged up lens.
I think that some think it is aim but similar to you I think they are dead wrong. With less experienced players I'd bet a bundle it is their stroke. Of course we can't rule out lifting up and coming off shots, taking their eye off a shot etc. In the grand scheme of things these poor fundamentals are a hazard to any stroke; or the poor stroke makes this happen.
We can't rule out not having a plan before you set up to shoot. A solid pre-shot routine sure would be great. In the end though without it, it just produces a poor stroke. So as you can see I think most roads leads to a poor stroke.
Rod
Dan White said:
Really interesting question. I have to come down on aim.
The reason for that is that many misses result from failing to ADJUST aim to take cueing issues such as squirt, curve and CIT into proper account.
So often, the player aims where he intends to aim and strokes the cb the way he intends to stroke it but misses...not because of missing the aim point but because the aim point was incorrect.
Regards,
Jim
Do instructors consider aiming and sighting the same thing?
When I miss, it's usually do to sighting. For example, I usually have problems with long straight in draw shots. I determined my stroke was fine, but I had an issue with falling in line. It's not an aiming issue, since the aim point is obvious in a straight in shot, but for the life of me, I couldn't "match up" the the CB to OB. It always looked off to one side or another. Then I took off my glasses and made 11 row. Even though the balls looked like furry masses of goo, I could see just well enough to know I was in perfect alignment. Most I made was 5 in row with my specs. The 11 in a row is still pending, since I quit to post about it.
There's also players who think they're sighting correctly, but are off. Joe Tucker talks about this, and how you have to retrain yourself to go against your eyes. Even though the perception is right, the reality is wrong.
Personally, I think once you develop a reliable stroke, it comes down to sighting. Aim points are easy to determine. But no aiming system on earth is going to help if you can't properly see and align yourself to those aim points.
When I miss, it's usually do to sighting. For example, I usually have problems with long straight in draw shots. I determined my stroke was fine, but I had an issue with falling in line. It's not an aiming issue, since the aim point is obvious in a straight in shot, but for the life of me, I couldn't "match up" the the CB to OB. It always looked off to one side or another. Then I took off my glasses and made 11 row. Even though the balls looked like furry masses of goo, I could see just well enough to know I was in perfect alignment. Most I made was 5 in row with my specs. The 11 in a row is still pending, since I quit to post about it.
There's also players who think they're sighting correctly, but are off. Joe Tucker talks about this, and how you have to retrain yourself to go against your eyes. Even though the perception is right, the reality is wrong.
Personally, I think once you develop a reliable stroke, it comes down to sighting. Aim points are easy to determine. But no aiming system on earth is going to help if you can't properly see and align yourself to those aim points.
The biggest problem I think is to align properly for the shot. Whether you use concious aiming system or not, determining where to hit the object balls becomes automatic even for so called lesser players. You can look at the right spot and have what feels like a perfect stroke with no unwanted english, but still miss. Why? Possibly because your stance is slightly misaligned, or your bridge hand placement is off. I voted 50/50.
Missing Aim or Missing Stroke
I think it can be either or both. For me I find a cut shot with a lot of distance between the cue object ball to be an issue. I look at the object ball but when I am on the cue ball lining up I seem to lose the perspective of where that spot was. I actually have found success in lining up the object ball to the pocket and pick a spot on the opposite rail on the diamonds. Then when I am at the cue ball I can draw a line from that spot and correct myself if need be. HMMM, maybe I should get an aim system as a back up, oh that is another story.
I do some instruction with some of the lower level players on my team. The most insidious issue with almost every player is not hitting exactly center on the ball. When they are down on the shot they will tell me they are pointing right at the center and they are not. Of course they insist I am wrong and they are right. I mean how could it be possible that they can't do something as simple as point the stick at the middle of the ball. Of course the true test is to take a stripe ball with the stripe standing up shoot it down the length of the table and bring it back to your stick, the stripe should not wobble. The interesting thing here is that what I told them about hitting the center becomes obvious but is almost always to one side. So, many players really struggle to hit center ball and I have had higher level players with this same error.
I believe if you have stroking errors you will be putting unintentional english on the ball and throwing the object ball left or right. This can be really deblitating as it will effect the players ability to develope shot memory. So, the value of a good straight stroke is undeniable.
However, as I said earlier I do have aiming issues at times. Want to check aim versus stroke? Put the cue on the head string put the object ball various places below the foot string and try a bunch of those shots.
Want to check for unintended english? Place the object ball on the head string. Using a stripe as the cue ball place that two diamonds behind the object ball. Shooting a straight in stun or stop shot the length of the table to the opposite corner did the stripe stay standing up? I will bet many a player reading this will struggle with this one thing. Even if you if you consiously correct this unintended english will creep back into your game.
Just rambling while drinking coffee slurp slurp
I think it can be either or both. For me I find a cut shot with a lot of distance between the cue object ball to be an issue. I look at the object ball but when I am on the cue ball lining up I seem to lose the perspective of where that spot was. I actually have found success in lining up the object ball to the pocket and pick a spot on the opposite rail on the diamonds. Then when I am at the cue ball I can draw a line from that spot and correct myself if need be. HMMM, maybe I should get an aim system as a back up, oh that is another story.
I do some instruction with some of the lower level players on my team. The most insidious issue with almost every player is not hitting exactly center on the ball. When they are down on the shot they will tell me they are pointing right at the center and they are not. Of course they insist I am wrong and they are right. I mean how could it be possible that they can't do something as simple as point the stick at the middle of the ball. Of course the true test is to take a stripe ball with the stripe standing up shoot it down the length of the table and bring it back to your stick, the stripe should not wobble. The interesting thing here is that what I told them about hitting the center becomes obvious but is almost always to one side. So, many players really struggle to hit center ball and I have had higher level players with this same error.
I believe if you have stroking errors you will be putting unintentional english on the ball and throwing the object ball left or right. This can be really deblitating as it will effect the players ability to develope shot memory. So, the value of a good straight stroke is undeniable.
However, as I said earlier I do have aiming issues at times. Want to check aim versus stroke? Put the cue on the head string put the object ball various places below the foot string and try a bunch of those shots.
Want to check for unintended english? Place the object ball on the head string. Using a stripe as the cue ball place that two diamonds behind the object ball. Shooting a straight in stun or stop shot the length of the table to the opposite corner did the stripe stay standing up? I will bet many a player reading this will struggle with this one thing. Even if you if you consiously correct this unintended english will creep back into your game.
Just rambling while drinking coffee slurp slurp
most of my misses boil down to not hitting the cueball where I intend to ie. a stroking problem.
I always know where I should hit the cueball and I always know the correct contact point on the OB.
aiming is really too easy for any player to get wrong.
executing it is a whole different story.
when my game goes south it is almost always because of lateral movement in my elbow.
I get back in stroke with what has to be one of the oldest drills on earth get a cueball with one easily orientated dot.. like the aramith/ valley cueballs with the cat head (or use a numbered ball and put the number where you intend to hit) place that cue on the spot with the cat head dot exactly where you intend to hit the cueball place another ball on the center spot and shoot. try a few with each major spin. you will find out pretty quickly if you are indeed hitting the cueball where you think you are. the chalk dot dosen't lie.
I think most people who "think" they have aiming problems probably aim just fine but are losing it in the execution.
I always know where I should hit the cueball and I always know the correct contact point on the OB.
aiming is really too easy for any player to get wrong.
executing it is a whole different story.
when my game goes south it is almost always because of lateral movement in my elbow.
I get back in stroke with what has to be one of the oldest drills on earth get a cueball with one easily orientated dot.. like the aramith/ valley cueballs with the cat head (or use a numbered ball and put the number where you intend to hit) place that cue on the spot with the cat head dot exactly where you intend to hit the cueball place another ball on the center spot and shoot. try a few with each major spin. you will find out pretty quickly if you are indeed hitting the cueball where you think you are. the chalk dot dosen't lie.
I think most people who "think" they have aiming problems probably aim just fine but are losing it in the execution.
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I had to go with stroke. When I'm warmed up, I'm seeing it, and my line of sight rarely lets me down but it's those little flaws in mechanics that cause my misses, like too tight of a grip hand and a slight twist of the wrist. I hate when I do that.
probably not right in height either
When a person consistently hits to one side the height that they hit the ball is usually a little off too. You need a cue ball with markings to let you test both. My testing only included people up to roughly shortstop level, capable of winning the larger local tournaments beating Scotty Township and Jamie Farrell along the way, but as I mentioned earlier in this thread I found that not hitting the cue ball where a person thinks they are is quite common and it is a matter of perception.
Often people hit consistently wrong and have adjusted their shotmaking to allow for this. This makes their game one sided and they always find spinning the ball easier one way than the other.
This seems to usually come back to two issues, stance, and the way we see things. Strong eye, weak eye, binocular vision. I have a fairly weak dominant eye, it isn't much stronger than the lesser eye. Sometimes in the heat of competition my viewpoint alternates between full binocular and strong eye dominant. You can write the results in red when that happens!
Hu
When a person consistently hits to one side the height that they hit the ball is usually a little off too. You need a cue ball with markings to let you test both. My testing only included people up to roughly shortstop level, capable of winning the larger local tournaments beating Scotty Township and Jamie Farrell along the way, but as I mentioned earlier in this thread I found that not hitting the cue ball where a person thinks they are is quite common and it is a matter of perception.
Often people hit consistently wrong and have adjusted their shotmaking to allow for this. This makes their game one sided and they always find spinning the ball easier one way than the other.
This seems to usually come back to two issues, stance, and the way we see things. Strong eye, weak eye, binocular vision. I have a fairly weak dominant eye, it isn't much stronger than the lesser eye. Sometimes in the heat of competition my viewpoint alternates between full binocular and strong eye dominant. You can write the results in red when that happens!
Hu
Bigkahuna said:I think it can be either or both. For me I find a cut shot with a lot of distance between the cue object ball to be an issue. I look at the object ball but when I am on the cue ball lining up I seem to lose the perspective of where that spot was. I actually have found success in lining up the object ball to the pocket and pick a spot on the opposite rail on the diamonds. Then when I am at the cue ball I can draw a line from that spot and correct myself if need be. HMMM, maybe I should get an aim system as a back up, oh that is another story.
I do some instruction with some of the lower level players on my team. The most insidious issue with almost every player is not hitting exactly center on the ball. When they are down on the shot they will tell me they are pointing right at the center and they are not. Of course they insist I am wrong and they are right. I mean how could it be possible that they can't do something as simple as point the stick at the middle of the ball. Of course the true test is to take a stripe ball with the stripe standing up shoot it down the length of the table and bring it back to your stick, the stripe should not wobble. The interesting thing here is that what I told them about hitting the center becomes obvious but is almost always to one side. So, many players really struggle to hit center ball and I have had higher level players with this same error.
I believe if you have stroking errors you will be putting unintentional english on the ball and throwing the object ball left or right. This can be really deblitating as it will effect the players ability to develope shot memory. So, the value of a good straight stroke is undeniable.
However, as I said earlier I do have aiming issues at times. Want to check aim versus stroke? Put the cue on the head string put the object ball various places below the foot string and try a bunch of those shots.
Want to check for unintended english? Place the object ball on the head string. Using a stripe as the cue ball place that two diamonds behind the object ball. Shooting a straight in stun or stop shot the length of the table to the opposite corner did the stripe stay standing up? I will bet many a player reading this will struggle with this one thing. Even if you if you consiously correct this unintended english will creep back into your game.
Just rambling while drinking coffee slurp slurp
No question that in my case it is bad stroke. My stance gets in my way for some reason and when i have my stance right i don't miss....unfortunately my stance gets in the way alot. So, if any one has a stance system and not an aiming system give me a yell.
Aim vs Stroke
I am going with Aim. Here is why I was setting up shots last night long cut shot. OB a couple of inches behind the spot, CB four inches off the oppsite end rail in line with #1 diamond from the cornner pocket. Its a tuff shot!
I shot five cutting to the right. Change ends of the table and five cutting to left. I missed twice as many cutting to the left than the right.
I know that I got my stroke warmed up cutting to the right but my perciption of the contact point on the CB was harder for me to get dialed in.
In fairness I must agree with some other points my stance did effect my shots to the left for some reason I would get a little to close to my cue and actualy hit my ribs a little and not my chest on my follow thru.
I think it is perciption of the shot that causes aiming errors.
Bluey2King
I am going with Aim. Here is why I was setting up shots last night long cut shot. OB a couple of inches behind the spot, CB four inches off the oppsite end rail in line with #1 diamond from the cornner pocket. Its a tuff shot!
I shot five cutting to the right. Change ends of the table and five cutting to left. I missed twice as many cutting to the left than the right.
I know that I got my stroke warmed up cutting to the right but my perciption of the contact point on the CB was harder for me to get dialed in.
In fairness I must agree with some other points my stance did effect my shots to the left for some reason I would get a little to close to my cue and actualy hit my ribs a little and not my chest on my follow thru.
I think it is perciption of the shot that causes aiming errors.
Bluey2King