Anyone read the article on the Arizona Rating System

Yes I read the article, back when he first wrote it last year sometime. Ron did a great job.

I can retrieve the definitions of each of the rating numbers, it's at the office. I'll post once I get it.

I also have the list of current committee members. It pretty much boils down to 1 person from each bar/hall that has tournaments in AZ. I'll see about sending them to you as well. They do change every meeting.

The next meeting is May 18th at Metro Sports. Even if you are not on the committee you are welcome to come participate.

It pretty much is run like a town hall meeting. Bob Jackson goes one member at a time. A member gives the list of new players and there suggested ratings. Others have a chance to object or agree on each player. Then they go one by one through the raises and lowering the member has listed. Moves from 5 - 6, and 6 - 7 are not questioned very much. Higher moves require some explantion. Then there is a vote. If majority approves the player is moved. If it's a tie they remain the same. People can provide cases of tourney wins, matches won, improvements noticed, etc. Then it continues to the next person.

Then there are other pool related discussions and we decide the next meeting date and location.

I just got on the committee in December.

I'll post again when I have the info.

There used to be a written description that generally covered each level. I think it was actually posted at Kolbys for a very long time...(It may still be there by the door)

Now I think it is based on a guesstimation for the most part by watching someone play...then it is based on what you have won, who you have beat, and how much rumblings are being heard about someone needing to be raised.

What tournaments you play in will also skew your rating...There is a player I will leave nameless that is a 10-1 strictly out of spite and for playing in tournaments that only had novice players....He was playing in a tournament that although was not rated as a something and under only drew players of lower ratings...He "cherry picked" this tournament for about 6 weeks in a row...He was asked not to play as he was the only player signing up that was over an 8 rating....He continued to sign up and win the tournament so they rasied him to a 10-1 to keep him from being allowed to play...

He is a good player, but no where near the caliber of a 10-1

Part of the problem is there are only so many....When you raise some of them it reduces the competion for the players "just under" that level and then they end up dominating and thus get raised even though they probably should not be...(according to the posted verbiage that was used to determin a rating)

At this point it is so out of whack...I would say you could probably go through and drop every player rated 8 or above down 1 level and it would have no effect on the balance of nature...(and open up opportunities for more players to attend weekly events)...and it would put the ratings more closer in line with the verbiage guidlines that were used in the past.


Better yet....just do away with the whole thing and go to an ABC format....but instead of going to different number of games...have the entry fee be based on your rating...The higher you are rated the more you pay to enter...

The jist is that that higher rated player has better odds of cashing in an event than does the C player...

Example of a weekly sign up...C=$5 entry B=$10 Entry A=$15 Entry.

My hunch is that Cs won't have a problem donating $5 to a tournament and the A won't have a problem paying $15 entry when they are playing straight up aginst Cs and Bs.

And even if you are a B (like me) you have medium odds of cashing (if I am on my game that night) so my entry of $10 is appropriate.

Here are a list of Places and Persons in the Valley with Voting Rights. As of 4/1/08.

Alexanders - Bull & Ron Merseal
City Billiards - Jim Sears
Frontier Billiards - Kevin Randle
Groggy's - Kathy Crout
Hollywood Billiards - Bobby Yang
Kitty's - Kitty Carroll & Jack Chessman
Knobby's - Dale Teague
Main Street - Bob Jackson
Main Street Mesa - Thor Skogan & Jesse Renteria
Metro Sports - Steve "Jaz" & Dick Breese
Mountain Home Game Room - Jeff Waldheim
MVP Sports Bar - Tina Benoit
Northern Lounge - Larry Eans & Marty Eans
On the Snap - Erik Vankerkwyk
Ox Sports Bar - Rick Morris & Kitty Carroll
Pockets - Lenny Johnson, Stephen Havens and Ken Cottrell
Six Shooters - Charlie Huen & Gibo Pachecco
The Sets - Jerry Stuckart
Time Out Lounge - Cathy Kelly
Uptown Billiards - George Cruz & James Jay

Player Representatives:
Lee Collins
Chad Mullenberg

And the committee is always looking for other player rep's. Just come to a meeting.

BRKNRUN, I agree with much of what you posted...

BRKNRUN said:

Better yet....just do away with the whole thing and go to an ABC format....but instead of going to different number of games...have the entry fee be based on your rating...The higher you are rated the more you pay to enter...

Click to expand...

Just seems like ABC,... format would be no different than 789, ...
They both are based on subjectivity of those on the committee deciding who they want to raise or lower. Subjective numbers or subjective letters. It's all the same. Without any true standards there will always be vast variability based on guesstimation like you said.

FLICKit said:

BRKNRUN, I agree with much of what you posted...


Just seems like ABC,... format would be no different than 789, ...
They both are based on subjectivity of those on the committee deciding who they want to raise or lower. Subjective numbers or subjective letters. It's all the same. Without any true standards there will always be vast variability based on guesstimation like you said.

Click to expand...

I have a fix for that as well.... I will get to that..

Since as I posted above different tournaments draw totally different skill levels... I routinly play in a Friday night 9 and under at Alexanders...I have to be on my game to get there in that tournament

However...there are other tournaments that I can still go play in that I could easily cherry pick to make a few bucks...However...if I did that I would quickly find myself in the same postiion as some others of being rated a 10 and only playing 9 speed...(I am not saying a can't play 10 speed...I very will can and have, but I don't do it near is consistant as a true 10 rated player)


My point is that you could very well be considered an A rated player in one room and a C rated player in another...

There is one room (bar) I go into that people are genuinly surprised that I am not a 10 rated player...problem is I think there are only a few in that bar that acutally know what a 10 rated player is...In a way I feel like Scott Frost does when he walks into most pool rooms...I feell like the only way I would lose (if I kept cherry picking thier tournament) is if I tried to lose...Obvoiusly I am no Scott Frost..and I have been beat in that room but for the most part it is a open tournament that is a easy win....The reality is that in "other" rooms with actual players I am a bump in the road for players that actually do play Scott Frost speed....(well sometimes a big bump with a spike strip...but you get the idea)

Interestingly this particular bar does not follow the "ratings" list (even though the TD knows about it)...The tournament is open to anyone...I stop in to the bar for other reasons....The TD and players are actually disapointed when I don't play...(even though I have a history of about a 90% win ratio when I have played)...

The fix is this...As I suggested weighted entrys C=$5 B=$10 A=$15...

The fact is that most recreation players play level changes from week to week depending on how much they are actually playing....(me included)

TDs keep records of who plays and who wins already so the follwoing should be no hard feat.

Remember...This is base on a no handicapp race to 4 or 5 (weekly event)

If you win the tournmant, the following week you pay the max entry ($15 as above or whatever the entrys are determined for A B C)...no matter what your rating was the week before.

C rated player...If you cash in a tournament, the following week you are now a B rated player (meaning you pay $10 to enter instead of $5)

B rated player....If you cash in a tournament, the following week you are now a A rated player (meaning you pay $15 to enter instead of $10)

A - you are already paying the max so you don't change if you win


If you play in 3 tournaments and don't cash...(or you could use 2 or whatever amount of events you want) you go down a rating and pay the lower entry...if you go 3 more weeks you go down again..(or perhaps just the next time you don't cash)

This way no matter what your "history" was...if you stop practicing or playing well...your entry will adjust accordingly to your current tournament production.

Now...this only applies for this one room...If you go play in another rooms tourments (that may have totally different skill levels) your entrys will adjust accordingly to how you performe in the events.

The individual TDs in the room will keep your rating for that room "only"...No need for "meetings" colaboration...rumblings from other players complaining about how so and so should be raised...No rumblings from so and so that got raised to a 9 but actually plays like a 7...(and now can't find a tournament to play in)

No more need to study the weekly tournament guide to find a tournament that you are allowed to play in since all tournaments will now be open to anyone...

Out of state players that are in town for a few days won't have the disadvantage of having to play as a 10 rated player...(They will only have the disadvantage of having to pay the higher entry fee...Something I would expect if I was on the road and wanted to play in some other out of state local weekly tournament.

Here is another benefit for the players...You won't be forced to play at certain rooms on certain nights because that is the only weekly you are eligable to play in...You will be able to play in your favorite establishment (the ones that run the best tournaments and have maintaned equipment)....

I could go on...but I am rambling at this point...Bottom line is I see this as a benefit for both the room owners and players...(more available players to attract to weeklys) and (more choices for the players)...win win in my opinion.

The hard part is getting the change in effect....The ratings "system" has been around for so long...and as we all know...society is resistant to change...

It is also very easy for me to type stuff like this...It all looks great on paper...The problem is...I am not a room owner...I am not the one that has to pull the trigger on this idea to see if it would work.

For the record...If a room owner does adopt this format of graduated entry and a straight up shortish race (since we all want to get home by 1am)....That is where I will be playing.

CocoboloCowboy said:

Well I know one flaw in the system,

that is there are Bar Owners who want to keep people in their Bars who are shall I say big spender, if the big spender keep winning tournament after tournament, & was a bump up, that could means a loss of the big spender to said bar,

the big spender keep their low rating when they should be moved up.

But money in one case control the person rating.

Click to expand...

I am not what you would call a "big ticket spender" since I rarely drink alchohol...so there really is no reason for a owner to protect my rating....(other thant they get a lot of quarters if they have bar boxes)....However...I have noticed that quite alot of the "big ticket spenders" have been bumped beyond eligabilty...(I am positive that what you post above has happened to a degree, and can't necessarily blame a bar owner that wanted to protect his "big tickets")

A graduated entry system or "flexable entry system" would eliminate that problem as well... since the "big ticket" would never be "graduated" from the tournament and forced to go play somewhere else...

I can think of a few very good recent examples...(I will leave nameless but I am sure the bar owner I am thinking of knows who I am talking about)

stuckart said:

It pretty much is run like a town hall meeting. Bob Jackson goes one member at a time. A member gives the list of new players and there suggested ratings. Others have a chance to object or agree on each player. Then they go one by one through the raises and lowering the member has listed. Moves from 5 - 6, and 6 - 7 are not questioned very much. Higher moves require some explantion. Then there is a vote. If majority approves the player is moved. If it's a tie they remain the same. People can provide cases of tourney wins, matches won, improvements noticed, etc. Then it continues to the next person.

Click to expand...

This sounds like a tournament seeding meeting, similar to what happens in wrestling tourney's

R.S.