I just learned another system!

cuetable

Line Up Your Best Shot!
Silver Member
I had a chance to go to Carom Cafe on sat night and I learned a system by Miguel Torres. It is very simple and I don't think it is in Ceulemans' book.

http://library.cuetable.com/showthread.php?p=1646#post1646

To all 3 C fans, let's gather and start working on a collection of all systems together using CueTable. I believe this will benefit people greatly and we will all learn many things from each other!
 

Bob Jewett

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cuetable said:
I had a chance to go to Carom Cafe on sat night and I learned a system by Miguel Torres. It is very simple and I don't think it is in Ceulemans' book. ...
How hard are you hitting the cue ball? If it is for about 2 1/2 table lengths total travel, I don't see how follow and center ball are going to be different when the cue ball gets to the cushion. I think in both cases the cue ball will be rolling smoothly on the cloth.

What am I overlooking?
 

cuetable

Line Up Your Best Shot!
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
How hard are you hitting the cue ball? If it is for about 2 1/2 table lengths total travel, I don't see how follow and center ball are going to be different when the cue ball gets to the cushion. I think in both cases the cue ball will be rolling smoothly on the cloth.

What am I overlooking?


I wish there is a way to describe speed better. I'd say it's about 3-4 table length lagging speed. I have to admit I probably shot just a hair softer on the center ball shot.

I believe all systems are just a starting point for each individual to experiment and discover more about themselves.

I wish I have learned this earlier...

Anyway, would anybody like to share something they have learned recently?
 

gulfportdoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
cuetable said:
I had a chance to go to Carom Cafe on sat night and I learned a system by Miguel Torres. It is very simple and I don't think it is in Ceulemans' book.
Interesting system, Wei. On page two, it looks as though the CB goes 1/2 diamond long with high english.

Doc
 

Bob Jewett

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cuetable said:
... I have to admit I probably shot just a hair softer on the center ball shot.

I believe all systems are just a starting point for each individual to experiment and discover more about themselves....
I think the last part is true, but my feeling is that anyone who undertakes to describe a system has a duty to include enough details that the student will know what he needs to worry about. I've seen dozens of systems that were described so badly that it would be impossible for two different people to implement them in the same way. I think some of these details include:

What speed to use.

What spin to use (and elevation, if any).

What sorts of positions the system can be used for and what positions need something else.

How the table might change things.

As for your original request, there are lots of systems already published in books. Either people don't know about them or they need better explanations. Maybe that would be a good place to start.

A final suggestion: I think it would help the student to understand the example shot of the system if it is shown with all the balls on the table. This is not so easy to do. The shot has to be a good example of where you would prefer to use that particular system over other systems.
 

bud green

Dolley and Django
Silver Member
Its similair to the system in the first Billiard Atlas book where you take the long rail as 0-80 and subtract 0-60 on the short rail, thirty per diamond starting from the middle of the rail. The difference is where you end up on the opposite short rail counting 20 per diamond.

Confusing until you see it, but if you look at your diagram, the shot coming from the corner to the first diamond is 80-30=50 or 2 1/2 diamonds on the short rail. Exactly where your diagram says it goes.

I find that I get two diamonds difference per full tip of english. I use that as a separate kick system also. One tip is one diamond short table, two diamonds the long way.
 

eze123

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's the "NY Bob" system in the Harris book. Pretty handy.
Probably the best system book I've seen is called Sistemas Billar a Tres Bandas by Villora and Serralta, I got it from tiendadelbillar. If you took Spanish in high school it's no problem. Pretty thick book just packed with systems. Has the NY Bob, and alot that I've never seen before - a couple really good ones for rail first shots when you're very close to the rail, when both balls are frozen to a rail, etc. There's a great one based on the basic corner 5 system, but instead of telling you what the 3rd rail return is you can figure the 2nd rail based on where it hits the 3rd, for umbrella type shots when the ball's close to the rail. Great umbrella shot system too, very adjustment heavy, but it needs to be to actually be usable. Never got a good handle on the umbrella shots until I started using it. Like having your eyes opened. Spent a bunch of time when I got it shooting and actually making umbrella shots, happy as a clam.
Systems are just maps - if you can't drive the car they can't help much.
 

mbvl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
gulfportdoc said:
Interesting system, Wei. On page two, it looks as though the CB goes 1/2 diamond long with high english.

Doc

On page one all the shots end up in the corner; on page two they all end up one-half diamond short of the corner.

Mark
 

eze123

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think it's a question of your terms. I would consider going 'outside' the intended point to be long. Coming in a half diamond from the corner on the short rail would be 'short'
 

Bob Jewett

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eze123 said:
I think it's a question of your terms. I would consider going 'outside' the intended point to be long. Coming in a half diamond from the corner on the short rail would be 'short'
Not for most 3-cushion players, I believe. For the usual "natural" shot, which is long, short, long, the ball is always said to be going "short" if it seems to come off the third cushion closer to perpendicular to that cushion. If you are trying for a 3-cushion shot to the corner (long, short, long, corner) and the cue ball hits the long cushion as the fourth cushion, the shot (or table) is said to be short. The situation is more complicated if you are not playing a long-short-long natural, but usually "short" means that the cue ball bounces too much off the last rail, while "long" usually means that the cue ball goes more parallel to the last rail. New cloth is said to play long, because the cue ball generally hooks off the last cushion to a line more parallel to that cushion.
 

gulfportdoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
Not for most 3-cushion players, I believe. For the usual "natural" shot, which is long, short, long, the ball is always said to be going "short" if it seems to come off the third cushion closer to perpendicular to that cushion. If you are trying for a 3-cushion shot to the corner (long, short, long, corner) and the cue ball hits the long cushion as the fourth cushion, the shot (or table) is said to be short. The situation is more complicated if you are not playing a long-short-long natural, but usually "short" means that the cue ball bounces too much off the last rail, while "long" usually means that the cue ball goes more parallel to the last rail.

I agree. If a ball goes outside its natural trajectory angle, it should be considered "wide" or "long" (more parallel to the last rail). If it comes inside it's natural trajectory angle, it should be considered "narrow" or "short" (more perpendicular to the last rail).

In Wei's example the CB travelled outside it's normal trajectory due to the use of left english. Therefore it should be considered as "long". If right english were used, the CB would have hit the short rail as the 3rd cushion.

However, if there are those in the billiard community who wish to refer to wide as "short", and narrow as "long", then I'll leave them to it...:)

Doc
 

eze123

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yeah, like I said, I think it's how you use the term.

It's a little confusing sometimes.
"If you are trying for a 3-cushion shot to the corner (long, short, long, corner) and the cue ball hits the long cushion as the fourth cushion, the shot (or table) is said to be short." In that case, it sounds like we're talking the same thing, I would call that short. It's almost the same as if you didn't use enough running english so you come in short, or narrower than you wanted. If you hit the short rail, it's 'long' because of slide, but on a different type of shot, like a short angle, it might be because you used too much running, so you go 'outside' or 'wide' of the ball. That's 'long' to me.
So with this shot, if you're aiming for the corner, and you use a little running left english so you come in to the left of the corner on the long rail, it seems 'long' to me - you went too wide. If you used holdup and came in towards the middle of the short rail, to me calling that 'long' seems odd, since it's a narrower angle than you wanted. But to each his own I guess.


gulfportdoc said:
I agree. If a ball goes outside its natural trajectory angle, it should be considered "wide" or "long" (more parallel to the last rail). If it comes inside it's natural trajectory angle, it should be considered "narrow" or "short" (more perpendicular to the last rail).

In Wei's example the CB travelled outside it's normal trajectory due to the use of left english. Therefore it should be considered as "long". If right english were used, the CB would have hit the short rail as the 3rd cushion.

However, if there are those in the billiard community who wish to refer to wide as "short", and narrow as "long", then I'll leave them to it...:)

Doc
 

mbvl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The difficulty in terminology arises because in this example, the cueball is coming off the short cushion last where the target is the corner. Coming off the long cushion last, hitting the opposite long cushion would almost universally be called "coming in short". Even in this case, I think virtually all three-cushion players would say that hitting the long cushion first was "short of the corner".

Mark
 

cuetable

Line Up Your Best Shot!
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
I think the last part is true, but my feeling is that anyone who undertakes to describe a system has a duty to include enough details that the student will know what he needs to worry about. I've seen dozens of systems that were described so badly that it would be impossible for two different people to implement them in the same way. I think some of these details include:

What speed to use.

What spin to use (and elevation, if any).

What sorts of positions the system can be used for and what positions need something else.

How the table might change things.

As for your original request, there are lots of systems already published in books. Either people don't know about them or they need better explanations. Maybe that would be a good place to start.

A final suggestion: I think it would help the student to understand the example shot of the system if it is shown with all the balls on the table. This is not so easy to do. The shot has to be a good example of where you would prefer to use that particular system over other systems.

Hi Bob:

Thanks for the great suggestions, I have added more details to the original post accordingly. In addition, I have also listed some alternative solutions to show how this system can be applied in a simple way :)

http://library.cuetable.com/showthread.php?p=1650



3 Cushion Billiard is a very interesting and yet difficult game. I hope more people will join and share things they have learned.
 

gulfportdoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
mbvl said:
The difficulty in terminology arises because in this example, the cueball is coming off the short cushion last where the target is the corner. Coming off the long cushion last, hitting the opposite long cushion would almost universally be called "coming in short". Even in this case, I think virtually all three-cushion players would say that hitting the long cushion first was "short of the corner".

Mark
Evidently you're saying that the CB is coming short from the perspective of the short rail. However, from the perspective of the shooter (the starting point), it would be long.

But yet when the CB comes off the long rail last, it would then be called short if it hits the opposite long rail. So "short" or "long" must depend upon the last rail being short or long.

To me, that's inconsistent, and overly confusing; but I can dig it!:cool:

Doc
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Goodness- seems like this is being made more difficult than needed!

Long vs. short is determined by the distance that the ball travels vs the intended target, no?
 

eze123

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
LOL, I think you just made it even more confusing than it was before. :D

Black-Balled said:
Goodness- seems like this is being made more difficult than needed!

Long vs. short is determined by the distance that the ball travels vs the intended target, no?
 

mbvl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
gulfportdoc said:
Evidently you're saying that the CB is coming short from the perspective of the short rail. However, from the perspective of the shooter (the starting point), it would be long.

But yet when the CB comes off the long rail last, it would then be called short if it hits the opposite long rail. So "short" or "long" must depend upon the last rail being short or long.

To me, that's inconsistent, and overly confusing; but I can dig it!:cool:

Doc

I agree that it is confusing and apparently inconsistent, but billiard players use the words in more than one context. I think we all agree that running english lengthens the angle regardless of what cushion is involved. However, the terms "long" and "short" are also used to describe the overall pattern of the shot. In this context, a longer angle off the short cushion generally "shortens" the overall pattern.

Another area where this can complicate things is when the cueball approaches a cushion with reverse english. If the angle of approach is relatively short (i.e., more nearly perpendicular to the rail), the ball will "bite" and the rebound angle will be shorter still. But at some point (depending on the slickness of the ball and the cloth), as the approach angle gets longer, there is a discontinuity, and the ball "slides" creating a longer rebound angle.

I think this is a good topic and I would like to hear what others have to say. I will try to post some Cuetable diagrams to demonstrate.

Mark
 
Last edited:

cuetable

Line Up Your Best Shot!
Silver Member
Hi I have just started another thread: "The Longs and Shorts of A Billiard Table" for everyone to discuss.

Back to the original topic, I'd like to encourage people to share systems they have learned in billiard and to have a positive group learning opportunity for everyone. Thanks to Bob's suggestion, people can use the following as a template to start their own:


3C CueTable Diagram http://cuetable.com/C/):
Name of System:
Original Inventor / From Whom You Learned It:
Speed / English / Cue Elevation / Table Condition:
Possible Application / Examples / Alternative Options:
 

iralee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
I think the last part is true, but my feeling is that anyone who undertakes to describe a system has a duty to include enough details that the student will know what he needs to worry about. I've seen dozens of systems that were described so badly that it would be impossible for two different people to implement them in the same way.

How true!

Wei admittedly was just trying to share a new system after having just having been taught it (by Miguel) two days earlier - and did not give himself enough time to understand exactly why it works (or when doesn't).

What struck Bob threw up red flags for me as well - since the slight difference (center vs 1/2 tip high) in tip placement has no significance to the cue ball action by the time it connects with the first rail (the cue achieves a natural roll in both cases) - what is the purpose? A speed change would MUCH better explain how to achieve a different arrival point on the third cushion than the proposed change in tip placement.

Based on his diagram, the cue ball paths to the first cushion are roughly parallel in all 4 scenarios (yellow and white, A and B). If we assume that the system calls for the same exact speed for all attempts, then we can imply that the amount of induced english from the cushion is the same for all the cases (due to the identical incidence angle). It follows (and his illustration depicts) that we see similar reflection angles (to the second cushion) which are roughly parallel to each other. What might strike a probing 3-cushion student is this: "Why do his lines from the 2nd to the 3rd cushion 'coincidentally' converge to the same point?"

It would be reasonable for one to expect that the paths away from the 2nd cushion should be parallel to each other because the angles coming into the 2nd rail are parallel and the induced english the first cushion are identical. (I personally don't use the system, but) I can offer a good explanation explanation on why Miguel's system might work (as illustrated by Wei).

A major difference between the different cases is the travel distance between the first cushion and the 2nd cushion (yellow A = ~1+ diamond - white B = ~4+ diamonds). The induced english derived from the 1st cushion gradually wear off as the distance the cue ball travels increases - explaining why "white B" has less english on the 2nd cushion than "yellow A", in Wei's diagram. Note that for the system to really work, one must have faith that the differences in the amount of english removed will match the 2nd cushion offsets perfectly and to the correct degree.

These particular types of shots with no english are very sensitive to speed because of the induced english the cue ball receives from the 1st cushion (and then loses on its way between the first and 2nd) are strongly tied to the characteristics of friction of the rails and the table surface. A player of 3-cushion can benefit by incorporating a feeling for these dynamics when shooting these kinds of shots (as opposed to blindly putting all of their trust strictly into the diamonds).

Because there exist so many poorly described systems, I think everyone owes it to themselves to attempt to explain why any given system works - take it apart to see where its limits and sensitivities are. If you just blindly learn and accept a "system" you might prove to be very effective on one table and then be at a total loss when faced with a different set of conditions on the next table. But if one goes through the exercise of explaining (to themself) WHY something works, then they'll be better prepared to improvise when faced with slighly different positions.

A "system" player naturally develops the tendency to alter their stroke subconsciously in order to "cause" a particular system work for them regardless of where "The System" originally directed them to aim. We're talking specifically about "diamond systems", but the context can be extended to a wider scope. The desire to score a point is such a powerful suggestive force, it is easy to ignore the subtle adjustments one makes in execution as they think about achieving the desired result - and then attribute more credit to "The System" than it probably deserves. I hear a lot of players say that systems help to build confidence. For me, the real confidence builder is being able to "take full credit" for a point scored.
 
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