Cue Ball Spin
- Thread starter Curdog
- Start date
Curdog said:
Three things, I guess:
1) Speed of stroke
2) Tip offset (from the center of the ball)
3) Not miscuing
Assuming you don't miscue, the first two variable are the only two that matter. The other things you mentioned do come into play by affecting how far off-center you can hit the cue ball without miscuing.
-Andrew
Sidespin (english) is used on the majority of shots to either control how the cueball comes off a cushion, or to reduce object ball throw (with outside english). In both cases, it is the amount of spin relative to the speed of the cueball that is important - the spin/speed ratio. This is governed nearly totally by tip offset, ie, how far from center tip contact is made. Cue speed and weight have a very slight effect. The heavier and faster the cue, the greater the spin/speed ratio (very slightly).Curdog said:
The factors that govern absolute spin rate, as with force follow and draw shots, have been mentioned (tip offset and cue speed), but just to add this. For any particular player, there is an optimal cue weight, one that produces the most spin, for each particular offset. No one cue will work equally well at all offsets for that player. But the good news is that over a rather broad range of cue weights, there is very little difference between them as far as cueball response. (The reason for this has to do with with the inertia of the player's arm.) Nevertheless, as a general rule, a heavier cue is more efficient at centerball, while a lighter one is more efficient away from centerball (in theory).
I would think that harder tips would be more efficient than softer ones, but some tests done by another poster here, Mike Page, suggest that this might not be the case, that they may be about the same. This is a part of cue efficiency as a whole. I suspect that there is very little difference between the "best' and "worst" cues as far as overall efficiency is concerned.
In brief, the principle factors (and virtually the only factors) are tip offset for spin/speed ratio, and tip offset plus cue speed for absolute spin rate. Having a well-chalked tip in good condition is important too, of course, as it determines how far from center you can hit.
Jim
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randyg said:
While outside english can be used to reduce throw, there are some situations where it is the only way to make a ball. For instance, if there is a gauntlet of balls to shoot through before hitting the object ball, and that object ball won't go if it isn't thrown with maximum outside english, with perhaps a touch of draw added for good measure.
Flex
Flex...Can you please diagram the shot you're describing, using the Wei Table? I can't think of a single shot that won't go, unless shot with outside english. I can think of many shots, where you might need outside english to make the shot AND get position, but the sidespin would be for the purpose of position play, not pocketing the OB.
Can someone provide the Wei table link? I'm not sure how to put that in my post here. Thanks
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Can someone provide the Wei table link? I'm not sure how to put that in my post here. Thanks
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Flex said:
Scott Lee said:
Scott,
I sure wish I knew how to make the WEI table work right, but my previous attempts have met with failure.
Believe me, I can set up a shot where what I described will most likely be the best or perhaps the only way to just pot the ball, let alone get position afterwards.
It has happened to me infrequently that a situation like the one I describe has come up, and when I've gotten through the two balls on the way to the object ball and then the object ball throws quite sharply my buddy has asked, "How in the heck did you do that?" and after the game is over, I'll set the shot up again and show him how to do it.
Sorry I can't post the WEI table for this...
Flex
randyg said:
I have to side with FLEX here.
The use of outside english tends to offset CIT which throws the OB to the LEFT on a cut to the right. The use of outside (left) english, creates throw to the RIGHT and therefore, tends to offset opposite CIT.
So, while I understand what JAL was getting at, as worded, I disagree that outside english serves to "reduce cue ball throw."
Rather, it offsets CIT.
Regards,
Jim
Scott Lee said:
Sure there are such shots Scott. I am WEI-challenged too but just for example, if an intervening OB blocks your path to the contact point say, on the right of the OB for a cut to the left, you can use outside english on a the shot to throw the OB to the left of the line of centers of contact which, without outside (right) english, would be hit too thick.
Regards,
Jim
Flex said:Scott,
I sure wish I knew how to make the WEI table work right, but my previous attempts have met with failure.
Believe me, I can set up a shot where what I described will most likely be the best or perhaps the only way to just pot the ball, let alone get position afterwards.
It has happened to me infrequently that a situation like the one I describe has come up, and when I've gotten through the two balls on the way to the object ball and then the object ball throws quite sharply my buddy has asked, "How in the heck did you do that?" and after the game is over, I'll set the shot up again and show him how to do it.
Sorry I can't post the WEI table for this...
Flex
I'll try to help:
The diagram (overhead look) makes it hard to tell, but let's just assume I positioned the 9 such that if you hit the CB without english and just barely missed the 9 (cleared it by less than a hair's width), the 8 will not pocket in the corner. A soft stroke with 3:00 english will pocket it, due to throw.
-Andrew
A skeptic will respond that in fact it is swerve that will curve the cue ball around the 9 to get to the right spot on the 8.Andrew Manning said:
I think a better example is to spot three balls and make the back ball in the corner pocket. If it goes without spin, move the trio half a ball up the table. Eventually you will have a shot that requires throw.
By the way, I agree that there are lots of shots that need outside spin for "cut aiding" throw. I'm not one of the skeptics; I was just pointing out that you may want to anticipate the bogus arguments and fashion your explanation to avoid wasting time with them.
excellent summary of spin factors
Excellent summary!
For people who use "tips of English," tip shape can also affect the amount of spin they apply. See my January '08 article for illustrations and explanations.
Also, an argument can be made that a low-squirt cue might be able to apply slightly more spin than a higher-squirt cue. See Diagram 3 and the explanation in my December '07 article.
For people who want to see the math and physics behind many of Jal's statements above, see TP A.30.
Regards,
Dave
Jim,Jal said:
Excellent summary!
For people who use "tips of English," tip shape can also affect the amount of spin they apply. See my January '08 article for illustrations and explanations.
Also, an argument can be made that a low-squirt cue might be able to apply slightly more spin than a higher-squirt cue. See Diagram 3 and the explanation in my December '07 article.
For people who want to see the math and physics behind many of Jal's statements above, see TP A.30.
Regards,
Dave
That's the theory, but at 1:00 the cue ball will have more follow and less side spin, while at 2:00 it will have more side spin and less follow. At 1:30 it would have equal parts of each just after tip contact. One of the "equal" things is the distance from center you hit the cue ball.Curdog said:
Thanks for that, Dave; I've wondered why knowledgable people say that's so. What do you think is the percentage increase in "effective tip offset" for typical low-squirt vs. high-squirt cues? I imagine it's very low...
pj
chgo
The skeptic asks: How can you be sure that it is not transferred spin that's helping to make the bank rather than throw? And, maybe there's a little swerve around the blocker.Neil said: