Schmidt or Crane?? - best 14.1 shot in a match

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Williebetmore

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In the "Crane runs 150" thread, Crane's "wraparound" shot is described in detail. A great shot, but appears to be dead.

While I am one of the rabble whose opinion is that Mosconi and Crane were a definite level above the current players in 14.1 KNOWLEDGE (and NOT ball pocketing ability - I also believe that some of the current players could reach that level of proficiency if they played 14.1 exclusively); I will have to say that John Schmidt's shot in the match against Danny Harriman was the greatest, gutsiest shot I've witnessed - makes Crane's shot look like a hanger.

In the Action Report All-Around match, John obtained an early lead; but Danny proceeded to catch up around 310-310 (I have the exact numbers at home and can correct this later; the race was to 400). John then came to the table, ran a rack or two, then was faced with this situation after a successful break shot. It appeared that he had NO SHOT; and all in the audience were amazed when he pulled off an incredible 4 ball combination.

I don't know if the middle 2 balls were touching, and I don't know if the last ball caromed or combo'ed in; but at a point in the long match where any miss probably meant loss of game; WHAT A SHOT!!!


Here's the table; see if you can figure it out; the solution is on the second page of the table:

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Here is a photo of John agonizing over taking this shot. For big money, this was a big shot.

For those that haven't played competitive straight pool, there is no feeling like playing a 6 hour match, and then facing a shot like this that will decide the match. Even a hanger at that point in the match looks tough to me.

My diagram is just approximate; there were NO other shots available. That is me and elvicash in the background saying to ourselves, "WTF is he looking at??????". I think Danny was probably thinking, "I hope he tries something crazy."
 

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Williebetmore said:
Here is a photo of John agonizing over taking this shot. For big money, this was a big shot.

For those that haven't played competitive straight pool, there is no feeling like playing a 6 hour match, and then facing a shot like this that will decide the match. Even a hanger at that point in the match looks tough to me.

My diagram is just approximate; there were NO other shots available. That is me and elvicash in the background saying to ourselves, "WTF is he looking at??????". I think Danny was probably thinking, "I hope he tries something crazy."
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If he is shooting the striped ball that is frozen to (or nearly) against the next ball, this looks like a dead shot as well. It's just a matter of hitting the third ball on the right side. Not nearly as hard a shot as the one Crane found and made. I'm not sure many players would have even found Crane's shot, let alone tried it.
 
jay helfert said:
If he is shooting the striped ball that is frozen to (or nearly) against the next ball, this looks like a dead shot as well. It's just a matter of hitting the third ball on the right side. Not nearly as hard a shot as the one Crane found and made. I'm not sure many players would have even found Crane's shot, let alone tried it.
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JH,
I will have to disagree. All of my straight pool mentors emphasize that the more distance between balls in caroms and combo's, the more difficult the determination of whether it will go or not. John's shot contained large distance between the 2 frozen balls and the last ball; and also between the last ball and the pocket. Seems much more difficult to me.
 
Williebetmore said:
JH,
I will have to disagree. All of my straight pool mentors emphasize that the more distance between balls in caroms and combo's, the more difficult the determination of whether it will go or not. John's shot contained large distance between the 2 frozen balls and the last ball; and also between the last ball and the pocket. Seems much more difficult to me.
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Crane's shot took KNOWLEDGE of how all the balls would react, moving in different directions. When you are shooting away from the pocket and balls are moving in several different directions it becomes much harder to gauge the "throw" of a shot. In John's shot here, all the balls are moving in the same general direction. It is more of an "aim" shot than a "knowledge" shot.
 
In my opinion both shots are relatively simple once you see them. By simple I mean they're not long tough stroke shots. They were both "pressure" shots; however, as Jay stated, Crane's shot is the more difficult shot to find. I agree that most (myself included) would have difficulty seeing that shot let alone trying it.
 
jay helfert said:
Crane's shot took KNOWLEDGE of how all the balls would react, moving in different directions. When you are shooting away from the pocket and balls are moving in several different directions it becomes much harder to gauge the "throw" of a shot. In John's shot here, all the balls are moving in the same general direction. It is more of an "aim" shot than a "knowledge" shot.
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JH,
I mean to take nothing away from Crane's shot - definitely a keeper.

Another point in my limited experience adds to my case. I do play a large amount of straight pool, and am fortunate to play frequently with some champion players, and take lessons from some champion players.

I see or make a "wraparound" shot out of the pack every few months. When there is a dead ball in the pack, then it is just a matter of finding some way to hit the appropriate point in the pack - and creative players can usually find a way to do it, and the margin of error is usually quite large and forgiving. John's shot on the other hand required a more extreme level of precision in my opinion; I can't recall seeing anything like it ever.

I guess my point is that if a player like me could imagine seeing it or executing it, then I feel it is less special than something I could never see nor even imagine executing. My $.02.
 
=)

Thats Fing Awesome.. This is why hes my favorite pro player.. Who was it that said Schmidt was the greatest shot maker since Mosconi.. I think Grady Matthews said it while doing commentary for one of his matches.. I could be wrong Ill look and see... =)
 
Randy9Ball said:
In my opinion both shots are relatively simple once you see them. By simple I mean they're not long tough stroke shots. They were both "pressure" shots; however, as Jay stated, Crane's shot is the more difficult shot to find. I agree that most (myself included) would have difficulty seeing that shot let alone trying it.
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randy,
The top straight pool players inspect the pack every time it is touched or disturbed. If a ball is lined up directly at the pocket, then it is just a matter of finding a way to hit the pack so that it goes in. I would be shocked if any good straight pool player could not see that Crane's 2-ball was dead - of course the wraparound nature of it DEFINITELY adds to it's complexity; but it is still a commonly seen shot; even in my banger's straight pool league.

I have played a thousand hours with Danny D., Grady M., Johnny Archer, and several other champion players; have a hundred Accu-Stats 14.1 vids, but have never seen anything like John's shot. Judging the angle and course of the last 2 balls seems quite a bit more difficult to me. If the last 2 balls in the combo are that far apart, then you've got a TOUGH DECISION AND A TOUGHER SHOT - not to mention all that distance to factor in any throw from the middle two balls. When the last 2 balls are frozen as in Crane's shot, those decisions are usually quite easy. JMO.

Anyway, I hope John will weigh in....I could be completely wrong about this.....maybe he thinks it was a hanger....
 
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Robertduke said:
Thats Fing Awesome.. This is why hes my favorite pro player.. Who was it that said Schmidt was the greatest shot maker since Mosconi.. I think Grady Matthews said it while doing commentary for one of his matches.. I could be wrong Ill look and see... =)
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Regardless I would say Grady would have been wrong nonetheless and perhaps just said it as the usual banter of a match while doing commentary.

Since Mosconi we have had Sigel and Strickland, who both on pure shotmaking are/were insane talents. There are ALOT of players I would put above Schmidt as shotmakers since Mosconi, and that is taking nothing away from Schmidt, there is alot of truly huge shotmakers who have come and went since then.
 
Celtic said:
Regardless I would say Grady would have been wrong nonetheless and perhaps just said it as the usual banter of a match while doing commentary.

Since Mosconi we have had Sigel and Strickland, who both on pure shotmaking are/were insane talents. There are ALOT of players I would put above Schmidt as shotmakers since Mosconi, and that is taking nothing away from Schmidt, there is alot of truly huge shotmakers who have come and went since then.
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Ironically, Sigel himself said that Schmidt was one of the greatest shotmakers that he had ever seen.
 
hi

Williebetmore said:
randy,
The top straight pool players inspect the pack every time it is touched or disturbed. If a ball is lined up directly at the pocket, then it is just a matter of finding a way to hit the pack so that it goes in. I would be shocked if any good straight pool player could not see that Crane's 2-ball was dead - of course the wraparound nature of it DEFINITELY adds to it's complexity; but it is still a commonly seen shot; even in my banger's straight pool league.

I have played a thousand hours with Danny D., Grady M., Johnny Archer, and several other champion players; have a hundred Accu-Stats 14.1 vids, but have never seen anything like John's shot. Judging the angle and course of the last 2 balls seems quite a bit more difficult to me. If the last 2 balls in the combo are that far apart, then you've got a TOUGH DECISION AND A TOUGHER SHOT - not to mention all that distance to factor in any throw from the middle two balls. When the last 2 balls are frozen as in Crane's shot, those decisions are usually quite easy. JMO.

Anyway, I hope John will weigh in....I could be completely wrong about this.....maybe he thinks it was a hanger....
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it was very observant of you to notice how hard that shot is.people talking about how easy it was would have to see the shot in person to realise the difficulty.it was 100 times harder than cranes not bragging its just a fact thats all. i could have easily missed it.
 
Celtic said:
Regardless I would say Grady would have been wrong nonetheless and perhaps just said it as the usual banter of a match while doing commentary.

Since Mosconi we have had Sigel and Strickland, who both on pure shotmaking are/were insane talents. There are ALOT of players I would put above Schmidt as shotmakers since Mosconi, and that is taking nothing away from Schmidt, there is alot of truly huge shotmakers who have come and went since then.
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Besides the aforementioned Sigel & Strickland, how about Luther Lassiter also!
John Schmidt is without a doubt a great shotmaker. Some of the shots he played against Sigel in the 2000 U.S. Open 14.1 Championships were awesome.
Not off the point...did anybody ever watch any of the 14.1 Accu-Stats that have Efren playing? He is cross-banking on a break shot (!?!) because he was out of position at times. Guys like JS and Efren play a daring style of 14.1 because they have such confidence in their shotmaking ability. I would aslo put Sigel in this group as well. Many of the purist-styled 14.1 would rather pet a oppossum than to shoot some of the high risk / high reward shots. They would rather play a less aggressive safe. Who's to say which is better? If they make the shot, they look like a genius. If they miss, they pack their bags and go home. I guess it's what each player is comfortable with and what they know is in their repetoire.
 
Williebetmore said:
JH,
I mean to take nothing away from Crane's shot - definitely a keeper.

Another point in my limited experience adds to my case. I do play a large amount of straight pool, and am fortunate to play frequently with some champion players, and take lessons from some champion players.

I see or make a "wraparound" shot out of the pack every few months. When there is a dead ball in the pack, then it is just a matter of finding some way to hit the appropriate point in the pack - and creative players can usually find a way to do it, and the margin of error is usually quite large and forgiving. John's shot on the other hand required a more extreme level of precision in my opinion; I can't recall seeing anything like it ever.

I guess my point is that if a player like me could imagine seeing it or executing it, then I feel it is less special than something I could never see nor even imagine executing. My $.02.
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Maybe you're a better player than you think you are. :)

By the way, the greatest shot maker I ever saw was Louie Roberts. He could make your hair stand on end! Jimmy Reid might be second. For making a big shot under pressure, I put Sigel and Buddy at the top of the list.
 
schmidt's shot took superb execution as well as the knowledge to spot it. crane's was just about spotting it - anybody could have executed the shot.
 
jay helfert said:
Maybe you're a better player than you think you are. :)

.
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JH,
Definitely an improving player, but more just a "student of the game." I probably should not have made the wisecrack about Crane's shot being a "hanger" - just trying to be funny. Even if the 2 is dead, it still requires knowledge to see that it can still go when shooting the cueball towards it. I have made a few of these, and I always yell if they go.

It is also possible that playing so much with champion players has skewed my view of what is routine and what is heroic. I rarely compete with anyone who is not either a total banger or a world-beater....I need more "in-between" competition (hopefully elvicash is listening).
 
Terry Ardeno said:
did anybody ever watch any of the 14.1 Accu-Stats that have Efren playing? He is cross-banking on a break shot (!?!) because he was out of position at times. .
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TA,
Yes, I have the video. Great shot.

I saw it, and remembered it to use against poolshark52 at the DCC this year when I also found myself out of position. Worked like a charm (and I have a witness). Unfortunately, he ran 75 on me in about 10 minutes; but at least I scored a few.
 
Williebetmore said:
TA,
Yes, I have the video. Great shot.

I saw it, and remembered it to use against poolshark52 at the DCC this year when I also found myself out of position. Worked like a charm (and I have a witness). Unfortunately, he ran 75 on me in about 10 minutes; but at least I scored a few.
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Isn't it something how we can remember lots of the shots we've taken over the years, but, speaking for myself, have a bad memory for most anything else?

Your post made me smile...."remembered to use it against..."worked like a charm".
Good stuff!:)
 
Terry Ardeno said:
Isn't it something how we can remember lots of the shots we've taken over the years, but, speaking for myself, have a bad memory for most anything else?

Your post made me smile...."remembered to use it against..."worked like a charm".
Good stuff!:)
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TA,
You are correct. Here was the whole sequence. Against a top player like poolshark52, any good sequence is something to remember (if you're not careful, I'll refer you to a great shot I made against Steve Lipsky after HE ran 75 on me in a tournament).

Yes, I know Efren's shot was the other direction; but he was definitely the inspiration for this shot (and he's better than me:) :) ).

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