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JAM
03-03-2005, 10:53 AM
Recently, I watched a couple of players engaged in a 5 ahead one-pocket match. The set progressed and was soon hill-hill, with one side needing only one ball for the win. :D

However, the only shot he had was a safety play made by his opponent, with the cue-ball and the object ball about an eighth of an inch apart on the opposite end rail of his designated pocket, right near the corner. The player jacked up on the ball, trying to bank the object ball one rail to his pocket, i.e., he "pushed" the ball jacked up.

The foul crier, who needed 6 balls to win the set, was seated about 30 feet from the pocket. He cried foul, stating he saw the cue-ball move ahead of the object ball, but didn't stop. A verbal argument ensued, getting very heated.

Some folks on the rail said that if there is no witness or referee to give a fair ruling, that the decision goes to the player who shot the ball automatically.

What's the right call here, if there is one? Should the player who thought it was a foul have initially gotten a witness to make the call? Since he wasn't right on top of the shot himself and was viewing it cross-table, it was his word against the other player's.

If a player doesn't get a neutral party to judge a "fair" shot at its inception, is it acceptable for him to still cry foul?

I'd be interested to read viewpoints!

JAM

1pRoscoe
03-03-2005, 10:57 AM
Based upon that, it is a touchy subject... I have seen a few heated arguements on this topic as well.

I think that if he was concerned with foul play, he should've moved closer to have a better view of the shot. When I am playing like that, I'll be no more than 10' away with a view. If my opponent were to jack up on a shot, you can bet your bottom dollar I will be close to see.

Billy_Bob
03-03-2005, 11:00 AM
I just played in a tournament where they said before the tournament started...

"If there is a questionable shot about to be played, and you don't call a referee to witness the shot, the call *will* go to the shooter. If you don't call a referee, don't whine about the shot."

rayjay
03-03-2005, 11:03 AM
Without a referee, it's up to the player who's not shooting to get a neutral (preferably an "official" or referee) party to observe the hit and make a determination whether foul or not. If he doesn't do that, then it's the shooter's word. As he was 30 feet away and didn't ask for an observer, he's out of luck. Live and learn. If it's gonna be close, better to be safe than sorry and get an observer to make the call.
rayjay :p

Teacherman
03-03-2005, 11:07 AM
How do you go hill-hill in a 5 ahead set?

1pRoscoe
03-03-2005, 11:10 AM
How do you go hill-hill in a 5 ahead set?

She meant the shooter was on the hill.

Teacherman
03-03-2005, 11:11 AM
If the call goes to the shooter (when no referee saw the shot), I'll shoot any and all shots, however I want to shoot, them including by fouling......yet never foul ;)

Troy
03-03-2005, 11:12 AM
I would think the following rule applies ---

" 2.20 JUDGING DOUBLE HITS
When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul."

Note the comment about "special attention from the referee" and "guidance MAY apply". This leads me to believe (among other things) that the foul can NOT be called by the opponent from about 30' away.

Troy
Recently, I watched a couple of players engaged in a 5 ahead one-pocket match. The set progressed and was soon hill-hill, with one side needing only one ball for the win. :D

However, the only shot he had was a safety play made by his opponent, with the cue-ball and the object ball about an eighth of an inch apart on the opposite end rail of his designated pocket, right near the corner. The player jacked up on the ball, trying to bank the object ball one rail to his pocket, i.e., he "pushed" the ball jacked up.

The foul crier, who needed 6 balls to win the set, was seated about 30 feet from the pocket. He cried foul, stating he saw the cue-ball move ahead of the object ball, but didn't stop. A verbal argument ensued, getting very heated.

Some folks on the rail said that if there is no witness or referee to give a fair ruling, that the decision goes to the player who shot the ball automatically.

What's the right call here, if there is one? Should the player who thought it was a foul have initially gotten a witness to make the call? Since he wasn't right on top of the shot himself and was viewing it cross-table, it was his word against the other player's.

If a player doesn't get a neutral party to judge a "fair" shot at its inception, is it acceptable for him to still cry foul?

I'd be interested to read viewpoints!

JAM

Teacherman
03-03-2005, 11:12 AM
She meant the shooter was on the hill.

Doesn't hill-hill mean both are on the hill?

JAM
03-03-2005, 11:12 AM
How do you go hill-hill in a 5 ahead set?

You know, you're right, Teacherman. It wasn't an ahead set. Originally, it was supposed to be 4 ahead, but they changed it to a race to 5. When it was all said and done, it was 5:30 a.m. and JAM was a little punchy! :p

JAM

Teacherman
03-03-2005, 11:13 AM
I would think the following rule applies ---

" 2.20 JUDGING DOUBLE HITS
When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul."

Thanks Troy, but both players know the rules. They both have different claims and no one witnessed it.

Teacherman
03-03-2005, 11:17 AM
You can't rule all unwitnessed events to the shooter. You can't rule all unwitnessed events to the opponent.

You have to at least flip a coin or put the ruling to chance. Because, if I'm the shooter I'll use it to my advantage or if I'm the opponent I may use it to my advantage.

No real good way to handle it. But, giving it automatically to one or the other is clearly wrong.

JAM
03-03-2005, 11:17 AM
I would think the following rule applies ---

" 2.20 JUDGING DOUBLE HITS
When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul."

Note the comment about "special attention from the referee" and "guidance MAY apply". This leads me to believe (among other things) that the foul can NOT be called by the opponent from about 30' away.

Troy

And this is the way the majority of the friendly railbirds saw it, too! :)

However, one player needed only 1 ball for the win, and the other guy who cried foul needed 6 balls. They were racing to five, and it was hill-hill.

After the heated argument, which got quite loud, the foul crier said he wasn't going to budge until his opponent spotted up a ball. Thus, the alleged foul player conceded and did spot a ball to get the game going. He ended up winning the set on his next turn at the table.

JAM

Teacherman
03-03-2005, 11:19 AM
In a gambling match, the sucker should always win the ruling..........if the player wants to keep the sucker around.

Right christyd???????????

BTW, do you know who the sucker is if you look around and can't see one?

DaveK
03-03-2005, 11:31 AM
If the call goes to the shooter (when no referee saw the shot), I'll shoot any and all shots, however I want to shoot, them including by fouling......yet never foul ;)

I guess you just gotta watch some folks closer than others ... and be careful who you play !

Around here the situation is like rayjay described. Mostly, on shots where a foul is quite possible, the opponent will ask for a neutral party to referee the shot. If they don't, and a close call needs to be made, the shooter tends to have the final say.

We also play a couple of 45-degree rules when CB and OB are within a chalk-cube distance. If you shoot into the ball and have your cue elevated at least 45 degrees, no push foul can be called. Also, if you shoot at least 45 degrees of cut on the close ball, again no foul can be called. Don't know how common this approach is, but would be interested to hear if any other halls have similar rules (hey, I don't get out much :) ).

Dave

Billy_Bob
03-03-2005, 11:33 AM
If the call goes to the shooter (when no referee saw the shot), I'll shoot any and all shots, however I want to shoot, them including by fouling......yet never foul ;)

If it is an "invitation only" tournament, I wonder if you would get invited next time around?

JAM
03-03-2005, 11:47 AM
Most Tour Directors, being players themselves, have a high tolerance for shenanigans, but you can't con a con. ;)

Most times, people look at unjust foul-crying as a "move," in an effort to thwart the other guy's momentum; a pregnant pause, if you will, to slow him down if he's on a roll or a high run. :rolleyes:

Much like racking problems appearing at the end of matches when the score is close! :rolleyes:

In the incident I cited, the foul-crier was on the verge of losing the set, with his opponent needing only one ball. It was unfortunate that it occurred at that time, too. :(

Moral of the story, I guess, is that when in doubt of a shot, one should get a neutral party or a referee immediately. It's up to the player who is seated to do so if a shot looks questionable (IMO).

JAM

Teacherman
03-03-2005, 11:54 AM
If it is an "invitation only" tournament, I wonder if you would get invited next time around?

Just pointing out some things to the rookies around here.

jjinfla
03-03-2005, 12:57 PM
If questionable call someone to watch (usually your partner)

If you didn't call someone to watch then call "foul" and hope he will agree with you. If it's obvious he usually will. If it's close he still might agree with you. If it needs explanation call someone to explain the rule (your partner).


And Jam this past weekend I saw a woman call a foul. The other woman was stunned and asked what did I do? She was told her shirt touched another ball.

They were playing CB fouls only and of course they both knew this. So it wasn't a foul. But it did upset the woman was was up 2 zip. She was still talking about it when she was down 3-2.

Players will do anything to break concentration.

Jake

Bob Jewett
03-03-2005, 01:51 PM
...
Moral of the story, I guess, is that when in doubt of a shot, one should get a neutral party or a referee immediately. It's up to the player who is seated to do so if a shot looks questionable (IMO).
This is the part that's problematic. The shooter must have known that the shot he was about to shoot might lead to controversy. If he wants to be a cheating bully, he can just shoot it quickly and and claim "shooter's privelege" as to the call. If he wants to play fairly and without argument, he should begin by asking his opponent how he plays the shot. There are lots of players who say it is OK to shoot through a near-by ball no matter how many times the cue ball is struck, and no matter what the applicable rules say. After that, the shooter may want to ask a neutral party to come over.

I don't much care for the "shooter is right in all disputes" "rule".

One way to make the call after the fact is to get some balls on a different table, set them up in a position both players agree is correct, and have the (alleged) fouler shoot the shot again to achieve about the same result as the first shot. A neutral player can judge the reenactment if both players can agree that it was like the original.

Teacherman
03-03-2005, 02:02 PM
Good response Bob.

I've seem many occasions where a foul was committed but that possibility wasn't obvious before the shot. Therefore no referee called over.

I was playing in the BCA tournament in Vegas. Opponent was shooting a delicate shot to cut a ball into the side pocket. There was no question on the push.....it wasn't going to be one. But the object ball didn't make it to the pocket and it didn't hit the rail. Neither did the cue ball. I called a foul. He said it hit the rail. A little discussion started until his teammates finally stepped in and said it didn't hit the rail.

As a tournament director, I've recreated the shot on another table. Have had some success.

I've also videoed a shot as I was called over to make a good hit/bad hit call.

But, with no ref it gets testy sometimes.

JAM
03-03-2005, 02:03 PM
This is the part that's problematic. The shooter must have known that the shot he was about to shoot might lead to controversy. If he wants to be a cheating bully, he can just shoot it quickly and and claim "shooter's privelege" as to the call. If he wants to play fairly and without argument, he should begin by asking his opponent how he plays the shot. There are lots of players who say it is OK to shoot through a near-by ball no matter how many times the cue ball is struck, and no matter what the applicable rules say. After that, the shooter may want to ask a neutral party to come over.

In the above-referenced incident, I eyewitnessed the whole saga. The shot didn't look like it was going to be a questionable one (IMO). However, if it did look so to the opponent, it may have been prudent for him to remove himself from his seat and get right on top of it, to alert the shooting player that he's watching it closely. At that time, a neutral party could or should have been be called in.

I don't much care for the "shooter is right in all disputes" "rule".

Neither do I.

One way to make the call after the fact is to get some balls on a different table, set them up in a position both players agree is correct, and have the (alleged) fouler shoot the shot again to achieve about the same result as the first shot. A neutral player can judge the reenactment if both players can agree that it was like the original.

Sounds like the best move (no pun intended).

JAM

sizl
03-03-2005, 04:17 PM
too! :)

He ended up winning the set on his next turn at the table.

JAM







I love it!!!!! "Cheater's Proof" ;)

vapoolplayer
03-03-2005, 04:23 PM
I love it!!!!! "Cheater's Proof" ;)

i think she meant that the person who fouled won the set, i'm not sure.

sizl
03-03-2005, 04:31 PM
i think she meant that the person who fouled won the set, i'm not sure.




Read again slick :cool:




too! :)

.

Thus, the alleged foul player conceded and did spot a ball to get the game going. He ended up winning the set on his next turn at the table.

JAM

vapoolplayer
03-03-2005, 04:33 PM
Read again slick :cool:

she says he conceded the ball, then won at his next turn at the table...........still sounds like the guy that fouled won.

thanks

VAP

breakup
03-03-2005, 04:50 PM
A lot of discrepancies don’t ever really get sorted out for this reason. A few years ago at the local pool hall two guys were playing golf. They played all the time and had the classical symbiotic relationship. One player (A) needed the action the other player (B) needed the money. Player A goes to the restroom and player B blatantly moves player A’s object ball to the rail making his shot very difficult. When player A returns and notices his ball moved he confronts B with what is going on, as this is not the first time such a thing has taken place. An argument ensues, A accusing B of cheating and B denying the obvious. The game ends when A quits swearing never to play that cheating %$#@# B again. After paying his time A is telling someone watching what happened and the person who saw the whole thing let A know what he thought happened did in fact happen. B is a big fat cheater. A couple of days later all is forgotten A and B are playing 20/2 golf again. B needs the money, A needs the action. B continues to cheat.

Celtic
03-03-2005, 04:59 PM
It's up to the non-shooting player to relize that shooting a ball from 1/8th of an inch away has a good chance of being a foul and therefore saying "Hold it, I am getting a ref to watch this shot!" rather then sitting 30 feet away to call the foul.

You would be surprised how many times I have watched players about to shoot shots like this and I tell them I am getting a ref and they suddenly decide to shoot a VERY different shot. I have even had players argue with me pre-shot that the foul is not possible, then they shoot it and the ref calls a foul and they are shocked. This is all in Vegas at the BCA and VNEA and the like, it is amazing what some people dont know and what others will try to get away with. Always get a impartial player who knows the rules to watch a shot if it looks like it may be a foul because if you dont the official stance is it goes to the shooter and in this case even if it was a foul how are you to make your case with what you saw from 30 feet away?

semperfi
03-04-2005, 12:08 AM
We also play a couple of 45-degree rules when CB and OB are within a chalk-cube distance. If you shoot into the ball and have your cue elevated at least 45 degrees, no push foul can be called. Also, if you shoot at least 45 degrees of cut on the close ball, again no foul can be called. Don't know how common this approach is, but would be interested to hear if any other halls have similar rules (hey, I don't get out much :) ).

Dave[/QUOTE]


While playing in an APA league this week, I was asked to watch a hit. After making the call, a double hit, I was told by the shooter's coach that his player had the cue elevated at 45 degrees, and therefore the hit was good. I told him I knew nothing of this concept, but pointed out that I based my call on the fact that the cb followed the ob down table which could only happen with a double hit. I should also point out that while the shooter was jacked-up, he was still aiming at the center of the cb, and the balls were only about 1/4" apart. The coach didn't really argue much, but I know he thinks I made a bad call.

Mike

StormHotRod300
03-04-2005, 04:21 AM
Ok, have seen this happen several times where guys have a close shot on the OB and another ball, and either dont ask for a ref or rely on the other persons opinion.

Now i myself, if the shooter doesnt ask for a ref and i watch the shot, i normally ask the shooter if he thought it was a bad shot and go on his opinion even though i am standing only a couple feet from the table watching the shot. Most honest people call foul on thier own. I have several times even when the person isnt looking, if the person asks when comming back to the table.

But i have on a couple instances if a person was looking away and didnt see the shot and doesnt ask, i wont say anything. Because its thier fault for not asking.


dave

vagabond
03-04-2005, 05:17 AM
One way to make the call after the fact is to get some balls on a different table set them up in a position both players agree is correct, and have the (alleged) fouler shoot the shot again to achieve about the same result as the first shot. A neutral player can judge the reenactment if both players can agree that it was like the original.


HI,
What if all the tables are occupied!!!!!
Lack of consistency(inabilty to duplicate) does not mean he is guilty.
Vagabond

Bob Jewett
03-04-2005, 12:26 PM
HI,
What if all the tables are occupied!!!!!
Lack of consistency(inabilty to duplicate) does not mean he is guilty.
Vagabond
What if a meteorite strikes the fouler before you can replay the shot? You'll never know how much to pay to his survivors!

I pointed out that both players would have to agree that the shot was shot in the same way. If there is no such agreement, a decision based on whatever is shot hardly pertains to the shot. I hope it's obvious that my solution cannot be applied in all situations, especially if one of players is an obnoxious so-and-so. If the two players are rational and of good will, you might be able to resolve the question, and the players might even learn something about the rules.

Even world champions are often ignorant of the rules. Sad but true.

sizl
03-04-2005, 03:08 PM
she says he conceded the ball, then won at his next turn at the table...........still sounds like the guy that fouled won.

thanks

VAP






He did, but I think you are missing the point. The "fouler" actually never fouled. The guy that called the "foul" was just trying to make a "move". He was losing and fixing to lose the set and called a "foul" to try and turn the match in his favor.

The "fouler" got tired of the shit-talking and went ahead and spotted a ball just to get the match going again.......... and on his next shot the "fouler" won the game, set and match............ My point is that it did not matter that the "fouler" spotted a ball even though he did not foul, he still won.......
hence the "cheater's proof" :D

Please correct me if I am wrong JAM....thanks ;)

Tbeaux
03-04-2005, 04:59 PM
When there is some question about a shot and a ref was not there to make the call the call goes to the biggest guy! :D
Exception- When the smaller guy has a bigger stick and Elephant balls!! :eek:

longhair
03-04-2005, 06:07 PM
I am amazed, again, by the willingness of cheaters of various kinds to be honest about their dishonesty when discussing cheating on an internet forum. I don't need to name names.

I have encountered the "45 degree rule" often. Usually the person claiming that his shot was not a foul because he was jacked up 45 degrees was actually jacked up about 20 degrees. 45 degrees of elevation is a LOT of elevation. Try it. I don't think I've ever actually entered an argument about whether that really was 45 degrees, but I have been tempted. Have Y'all seen this?

As far as a ruling in the situation JAM described, the only thing I can add to the gathered experience here is what players and railbirds everywhere know already. When folks are gambling these calls must be negotiated between the players (and backers when appropriate). No-one else is involved and no-one else has any real say. This doesn't, of course, always lead to fair outcomes. It also doesn't prevent others from trying to interfere. Nevertheless, that's how it is.

Razor_Blade
03-04-2005, 10:09 PM
I have encountered the "45 degree rule" often. Usually the person claiming that his shot was not a foul because he was jacked up 45 degrees was actually jacked up about 20 degrees. 45 degrees of elevation is a LOT of elevation. Try it. I don't think I've ever actually entered an argument about whether that really was 45 degrees, but I have been tempted. Have Y'all seen this?




I have not only saw it, but probably been guilty of it. I don`t think most people pay much attention to the shot as long as the shooter is jacked up shooting down through the cue ball with a very low hit.


In Jam`s story, I agree with other posters that the foul caller was probably just making a last ditch effort to stay in the game, by sharking the shooter.

JAM
03-04-2005, 11:12 PM
He did, but I think you are missing the point. The "fouler" actually never fouled. The guy that called the "foul" was just trying to make a "move". He was losing and fixing to lose the set and called a "foul" to try and turn the match in his favor.

The "fouler" got tired of the shit-talking and went ahead and spotted a ball just to get the match going again.......... and on his next shot the "fouler" won the game, set and match............ My point is that it did not matter that the "fouler" spotted a ball even though he did not foul, he still won.......
hence the "cheater's proof" :D

Please correct me if I am wrong JAM....thanks ;)

That's exactly what happened. When the foul crier wouldn't budge from his seat, the opponent just gave in, spotted the ball, to get the game going, as he only needed one ball for the win and the foul crier needed five or six.

Whether it was an actual foul or a move, I guess nobody will ever really know. :D ;)

JAM

vagabond
03-05-2005, 06:43 AM
What if a meteorite strikes the fouler before you can replay the shot? You'll never know how much to pay to his survivors!

Even world champions are often ignorant of the rules. Sad but true.

Howdy,
I am glad that u mentioned about catastrophies.I always wanted the framers of laws/rules for pool/Billiards define every thing.Here is my hypothetical Question:It is the finals of a Pro Tour event.There is only one table.All the other tables are already removed from the arena(Like in WPBA events).A player masse`s a shot and as a result there is a big tear in the cloth.The opponent does not want to play on that table.what do u do?
I do not think we have rules covering that scenario.
The response one can anticipate from the rule makers will be-``don`t be silly.Proplayers know how to Masse` and they do not tear the cloth like u do``.
But they do not address the issue.

The rules should address some of these issues that could really happen.

Vagabond

chefjeff
03-05-2005, 07:09 AM
What if a meteorite strikes the fouler before you can replay the shot? You'll never know how much to pay to his survivors!

I pointed out that both players would have to agree that the shot was shot in the same way. If there is no such agreement, a decision based on whatever is shot hardly pertains to the shot. I hope it's obvious that my solution cannot be applied in all situations, especially if one of players is an obnoxious so-and-so. If the two players are rational and of good will, you might be able to resolve the question, and the players might even learn something about the rules.

Even world champions are often ignorant of the rules. Sad but true.

Having recently gotten a camera phone I must ask, why not take a picture of the shot BEFORE shooting it and then setting it up again would be easier? And a lot of you probably have those little cheap video cameras that could capture the whole thing. I'm half tempted to bring one to league nights with me. If playing for big $$$, maybe the hall could provide one?---a little added value, so to speak.

Our league has the 45 degree rule, which actually allows fouls IF your cue is 45 degrees up or over from a full hit. Yet at the state tournament, a referee is available to watch, but why, if the setup rule is the standard?

Two years ago at the state tourney, my opponent called a ref to watch my close hit. I jacked up 45 degrees as per the rule and he called a foul on me and my opponent ran out with ball in hand. The "ref" said he knew I didn't know what I was doing by how I aligned the shot. (I guess he's never heard of combining directional and side throw..:( ) The next year, I asked the head ref about this call and he said the other ref made the wrong call and I should not have been fouled. Too late and too bad as it put our team out of the tourney.

Oh well.

Jeff Livingston

Teacherman
03-05-2005, 07:57 AM
Having recently gotten a camera phone I must ask, why not take a picture of the shot BEFORE shooting it and then setting it up again would be easier? And a lot of you probably have those little cheap video cameras that could capture the whole thing. I'm half tempted to bring one to league nights with me. If playing for big $$$, maybe the hall could provide one?---a little added value, so to speak.

Our league has the 45 degree rule, which actually allows fouls IF your cue is 45 degrees up or over from a full hit. Yet at the state tournament, a referee is available to watch, but why, if the setup rule is the standard?

Two years ago at the state tourney, my opponent called a ref to watch my close hit. I jacked up 45 degrees as per the rule and he called a foul on me and my opponent ran out with ball in hand. The "ref" said he knew I didn't know what I was doing by how I aligned the shot. (I guess he's never heard of combining directional and side throw..:( ) The next year, I asked the head ref about this call and he said the other ref made the wrong call and I should not have been fouled. Too late and too bad as it put our team out of the tourney.

Oh well.

Jeff Livingston

Sounds like a BCA ref. That crew is unbelievably bad. And then there is the exmarine from Fl that can recite every rule in the book.........but can't make a good hit/bad hit call.

Bob Jewett
03-06-2005, 04:45 PM
Howdy,
I am glad that u mentioned about catastrophies.I always wanted the framers of laws/rules for pool/Billiards define every thing.Here is my hypothetical Question:It is the finals of a Pro Tour event.There is only one table.All the other tables are already removed from the arena(Like in WPBA events).A player masse`s a shot and as a result there is a big tear in the cloth.The opponent does not want to play on that table.what do u do?

The referee determines whether the game can fairly continue. If a player refuses to shoot when it is his turn, he loses. There are ways to fix tears, at least partly.

And then there was Robert Cannefax who was supposed to play a match but the cloth was not up to his standard, so he got out his pocket knife and made sure no match could be played on that cloth. He was not asked to finish the match.

Bob Jewett
03-06-2005, 04:51 PM
Having recently gotten a camera phone I must ask, why not take a picture of the shot BEFORE shooting it and then setting it up again would be easier? And a lot of you probably have those little cheap video cameras that could capture the whole thing. I'm half tempted to bring one to league nights with me. If playing for big $$$, maybe the hall could provide one?---a little added value, so to speak.
...
The problem usually is that you don't realize that you want a record of the shot until after the shot is done. I played one match in which my opponent purposely shot into a cluster at break speed so he could argue that he had really gotten a good hit on his partly blocked ball. Fortunately the LO was there and knew the methods of that player.

crawdaddio
03-06-2005, 11:27 PM
But i have on a couple instances if a person was looking away and didnt see the shot and doesnt ask, i wont say anything. Because its thier fault for not asking.


dave

Isn't this kind of like stealing a pack of cigarettes from a grocery store and saying "well they weren't looking, so it's ok"?

An honest question.
I wouldn't even consider it a win-if I won like that.
~DC

chefjeff
03-07-2005, 08:01 AM
The problem usually is that you don't realize that you want a record of the shot until after the shot is done. I played one match in which my opponent purposely shot into a cluster at break speed so he could argue that he had really gotten a good hit on his partly blocked ball. Fortunately the LO was there and knew the methods of that player.

The hand is quicker than the eye...lol. This happens in league play quite a bit, though it is usually because the player doesn't have a clue that he is fouling and just shoots too quickly to be stopped by his opponent.

But if the opponent can question the player's shot before he shoots, then he has the opportunity to use the camera.

Perhaps the rules will eventually include "instant replays."

Jeff Livingston

FLICKit
03-07-2005, 12:02 PM
You have got to be kidding, right?
NO... But you are right?

First of all, it is always preferable to have a ref witness a shot, where a foul may be in question. That's obvious.

The point from Bob is that there are times in a match where it isn't obvious pre-shot that a potential foul will be made. Another point is that without a ref watching every shot, then every match relies on a level of honesty between both players. Otherwise, if you are stripes, then you can hit a solid on purpose and lie and say you didn't. If all calls go to the shooter, then you'd win the argument without question. None of us want a solution where the liar/cheater can always win.

Thus, the shooter wins all argument rule does not work well in ALL situations. So, the suggestion of redoing the shot on a different table is a potential remedy for some of those important situations. The idea is that both players would somewhat agree to the original position of the balls. Then both players would relay their ideas of what happened to the balls and stick (if relevant) during the shot.

After you've gathered both perspectives of what happened, you allow the shooter to demonstrate his proficiency at executing the shot again. I'd suggest giving him 3 chances at it, because 1 chance would not always reflect accurately on the shooter's ability.

If the shooter executes it similarly with the ref now watching his every move, then it's deemed as a legitimate shot, and continue play. If it's not, then rule a foul, and continue play as such.

All of this can be handled in reasonable amount of time, and thus put an end to the argument, and allow play to continue.


I had this happen to me in a big tournament this weekend. My opponent claimed I fouled, but I knew I didn't. The shooter wins rule was in effect in this tournament, so nothing could be done. But, I would've been willing to re-setup the balls and execute it again, if for nothing else, just to shut my opponent up. Speaking of, I almost just volunteered ball in hand anyway, because based on the table layout, it wouldn't have made a difference anyway. But it's not always wise to take that chance. I proceeded to be as gracious as possible throughout the remainder of the match, and even made a few recommendations, "would you like to have this shot watched?". No further issues occurred, but of course, I wouldn't be surprised if the opponent whined about cheating every time the story was retold.

DaveK
03-07-2005, 12:15 PM
Here is something that happens now and then at the hall ... When there is a very close carom to be played and a foul is definate possibility, I've seen players and their opponents discuss the shot first, deciding what direction the various balls will travel after a good and not-good hit. Basically setting the decision criteria in advance. Once the shot is played the good vs nogood decision is obvious from the way the balls spread.

Dave

FLICKit
03-07-2005, 12:30 PM
We also play a couple of 45-degree rules when CB and OB are within a chalk-cube distance. If you shoot into the ball and have your cue elevated at least 45 degrees, no push foul can be called. Also, if you shoot at least 45 degrees of cut on the close ball, again no foul can be called. Don't know how common this approach is, but would be interested to hear if any other halls have similar rules (hey, I don't get out much :) ).

Dave


While playing in an APA league this week, I was asked to watch a hit. After making the call, a double hit, I was told by the shooter's coach that his player had the cue elevated at 45 degrees, and therefore the hit was good. I told him I knew nothing of this concept, but pointed out that I based my call on the fact that the cb followed the ob down table which could only happen with a double hit. I should also point out that while the shooter was jacked-up, he was still aiming at the center of the cb, and the balls were only about 1/4" apart. The coach didn't really argue much, but I know he thinks I made a bad call.

Mike

I suggest you spend a moment to review the rule book under Push Shots. This will help clear up the ambiguities. First of all, recognize that since Push Shots are controversial they will not be called during normal league play. Push Shots may be called at the national tournament level, since referees are available to watch and make the ruling. Second, just clarifying that if you want to lessen the chances of being accused of a push shot, then it's recommended that you elevate the butt of your cue 30 degrees.

Walt in VA
03-07-2005, 12:43 PM
I suggest you spend a moment to review the rule book under Push Shots. This will help clear up the ambiguities. First of all, recognize that since Push Shots are controversial they will not be called during normal league play. Push Shots may be called at the national tournament level, since referees are available to watch and make the ruling. Second, just clarifying that if you want to lessen the chances of being accused of a push shot, then it's recommended that you elevate the butt of your cue 30 degrees.
But this is not about push shots, it's about double hit fouls, and they are watched, and called, in many APA territories during normal league play.

Walt in VA

Teacherman
03-07-2005, 01:12 PM
I don't care how high you elevate your cue......you can still foul.

What the balls do tells the story.

FLICKit
03-07-2005, 01:36 PM
But this is not about push shots, it's about double hit fouls, and they are watched, and called, in many APA territories during normal league play.

Walt in VA


You are confusing a Push Shot with a Push Out. Push Outs are not allowed in 9 ball, that's a different issue. But if you look up Push Shot, it will explain all the details regarding a shot where you potentially push your stick through to contact the cue ball twice.

FLICKit
03-07-2005, 01:52 PM
I don't care how high you elevate your cue......you can still foul.

What the balls do tells the story.

You sure like being controversial don't ya. When given two or more options of how to respond, you always seem to choose the controversial one. You've amassed quite a rep that way.

Re-read the statement....
if you want to lessen the chances of being accused of a push shot, then it's recommended that you elevate the butt of your cue 30 degrees.

Thus elevating the stick WILL LESSEN the chances of a push shot/double hit. True elevating the stick does not eliminate the foul in all cases. You are more unlikely to foul when you elevate your stick, unless the stroke is so horribly executed or so difficult that not even elevating remedies it.

Any pool player that understands the logic, can thus see what the cue ball and other balls do during the shot to determine whether or not a double hit foul was committed.

Walt in VA
03-07-2005, 02:47 PM
You are confusing a Push Shot with a Push Out. Push Outs are not allowed in 9 ball, that's a different issue. But if you look up Push Shot, it will explain all the details regarding a shot where you potentially push your stick through to contact the cue ball twice.
I am not confusing anything - YOU are confusing a push shot with a double hit foul. They are not the same.

I agree with Teacherman and your last paragraph - what the balls do will tell the story to a watcher who knows what he is looking at.

BTW, push-outs are certainly allowed in 9-ball; just not in APA 9-ball.

Walt in VA

FLICKit
03-07-2005, 03:31 PM
I am not confusing anything - YOU are confusing a push shot with a double hit foul. They are not the same.

I agree with Teacherman and your last paragraph - what the balls do will tell the story to a watcher who knows what he is looking at.

BTW, push-outs are certainly allowed in 9-ball; just not in APA 9-ball.

Walt in VA

Walt, did you read the section in your manual? If you don't have a rule book with ya, you can go to the following link and read it on-line. http://www.poolplayers.com/materials.html.

I'll even save you the effort.

PUSH SHOTS: A push shot involves a situation where the cue ball
is frozen or nearly frozen to the object ball. The problem faced by the
shooter is to keep from pushing or keeping the tip of the cue on the
cue ball. It looks bad and is generally thought of as illegal. Push
shots are controversial. Push shots will not be called in this amateur
League. Even the professional players cannot agree about what is and
isn't a push shot. In general, you can lessen your chances of being
accused of shooting a push shot if you elevate the butt of your cue
about 30 degrees. This automatically cuts down the length of the
follow through which is the principal cause of a push shot. Players
who repeatedly guide the cue ball with force through object balls that
are frozen or nearly frozen to the cue ball, using a level cue and long
follow through, may be subject to a sportsmanship penalty.


As I said, 9 ball was a different issue. All the posts that I was referring to were in regards to APA and thus answered them accordingly.

PUSH-OUT: ...Pushing-out involves announcing the intent to push-out, and
then shooting the cue ball to a new position. The shooter doesn’t need to
satisfy the legal shot rule (driving a ball to a rail after a legal hit).... Normal game rules apply from that point
on. Push-outs are fairly standard in pro events and in the U.S. Amateur
(conducted by the APA); however, APA rules for all handicapped
competition does not allow push-outs because they give the more highly
skilled player a big advantage, for obvious reasons.


This should clarify the difference between a Push Shot and a Push Out. As you can see by definition a double hit foul is a form of Push Shot. If you still see some ambiguities, then there probably won't be much else I can do to clarify it any further. Feel free to pursue the matter through other avenues (friends, league players, league operator, or through national representatives).

Teacherman
03-07-2005, 04:16 PM
...I agree with Teacherman...

You're a smart man, Walt.

Teacherman
03-07-2005, 04:18 PM
You sure like being controversial don't ya. When given two or more options of how to respond, you always seem to choose the controversial one....

Better have it ready if you're trying to pick it with me flickit.

Nothing wrong with my post. Problem is your bias.

FLICKit
03-07-2005, 04:35 PM
Better have it ready if you're trying to pick it with me flickit.

Nothing wrong with my post. Problem is your bias.

LOL... What's that?

Better have it ready? What IT are you talking about?

Pick it with you. Haven't tried to Pick it with you. I stated what appears to be obvious conclusion from others. If someone other than you, has a different opinion of you, then I'd be interested in hearing there viewpoint. We'll leave YOUR BIAS and mine out of the issue.

Speaking of Bias, what bias were you referring to?

Jack Flanagan
03-07-2005, 05:00 PM
Perhaps the rules will eventually include "instant replays."

Jeff Livingston

can't wait,,,,a 4 hour game of 9 ball,,,,replays,,,referees,,,LMAO

FLICKit
03-07-2005, 05:16 PM
can't wait,,,,a 4 hour game of 9 ball,,,,replays,,,referees,,,LMAO

When it comes to a choice of making it quick, or getting it right. I'd vote for getting it right.

Football instant replay, even with its quirks and bad renditions early on, at least it's nice that they have removed a large majority of the wrong calls that used to be made. On numerous occasions those calls decided the final outcome of the game. Currently, this season, I'd say that every team that advanced through the playoffs did so on merit rather than erroneous calls.

Nothing is perfect, there is still room for some improvements. Overall, I'd say it's a plus.

FLICKit
03-07-2005, 08:08 PM
If the call is tight, and no one saw it, whther the shooter foul or not, the other guy call, and throw the shooter off. The foul caller wins no matter whether he gets the ball in hand or not cos he manages to distract the shooter. Worst yet, he makes the shooter feel guilt, like he does not deserve to win. Of course, if the shooter is real tough and not give a dame, then it is not really going to work. Most guys who try to be nice will feel bad and get distracted. So, the caller acheive an advantage by calling anyway. The more he calls, the worst the shooter feels. He may also ask others to watch a lot of shots, and interupt the shooter from getiing into his rhythem...what is he going to do...very sad...but true....powerful sharking tool to keep crying foul and asking someone to ref. You can drive anyone crazy enopugh not to play his best game and get a BS win...
Overall, in any event, you have to be mentally prepared for distracting behavior (i.e. shaking balloons, or foam sticks in Basketball, shouts and whistles from stands in tennis, or even flash photography during a swing in golf like happens to Tiger). Outrageous behavior can be tempered to some degree, but not always guaranteed to be eliminated. Tiger doesn't get to hit a second ball... even if he did, that wouldn't change the fact that the rude action is already prevalent in the back of his mind. If you're a good player you have to be mentally tough enough to handle those situations, or be able to deal with the actions directly with the offender.

Of course, excessive use of ref, when obviously unneccesary would be deemed as unsportmanslike, and could be handled accordingly (i.e. loss of game or even disqualification from tournament).

Walt in VA
03-07-2005, 10:08 PM
Walt, did you read the section in your manual? ....
As you can see by definition a double hit foul is a form of Push Shot. If you still see some ambiguities, then there probably won't be much else I can do to clarify it any further. Feel free to pursue the matter through other avenues (friends, league players, league operator, or through national representatives).
FLICKit, I'm fully familiar with the APA rule manual, and the statement that "push shots will not be called in this Amateur league." I am also familiar with the fact that, at least in our territory, APA referees are trained and qualified to watch for double hit fouls, and they will call it if it occurs.

Please do not try to "clarify it any further." If you still feel that an APA referee can't/won't call a double hit foul because it is a "push shot" and allowed, please feel free to pursue the matter through any of the other avenues you mentioned, or a certified referee or Referee Instructor.

Walt in VA

Terry Erdman
03-08-2005, 11:07 AM
Isn't this kind of like stealing a pack of cigarettes from a grocery store and saying "well they weren't looking, so it's ok"?

An honest question.
I wouldn't even consider it a win-if I won like that.
~DC

And we all saw Earl Strickland do this on TV and say, "the ref couldn't see it", when he shot a ball and moved a near by ball with his cue (all ball fouls) that was obvious to everyone but the ref behind Strickland. Everybody has an opinion on things like this but I like to think most of us would call an obvious foul on ourselves, even if nobody is looking. Big difference between sportmanship and rules! Big difference between Efren and Earl.

FLICKit
03-08-2005, 12:07 PM
FLICKit, I'm fully familiar with the APA rule manual, and the statement that "push shots will not be called in this Amateur league." I am also familiar with the fact that, at least in our territory, APA referees are trained and qualified to watch for double hit fouls, and they will call it if it occurs.
Walt in VA


Better to demonstrate your familiarity with the manual by using actual quotes and references to the sections that you are referring to, in order to ensure clarification for all. Otherwise anyone can be talking out of their A$$. Often times that's why so many people are not firmly grounded in the rules, because they get their information through hearsay, rather than actual references.

You may be thinking in regards to FOULS on page 48 (of course you may not be, since you never cross-linked to a reference). See bolded section (p. 49).

FOULS - ... Even after having addressed the cue ball a
player may, if not satisfied with the placement, make further adjustments
with his hand, cue stick or any other reasonable piece of
equipment. A foul may be called only if the player fouls the cue
ball while actually stroking the cue ball, meaning a double hit of
the cue ball (sometimes called double clutching). The ball-inhand
rule penalizes a player for an error. Without this rule, a
person can actually benefit by accidentally or purposely scratching
or otherwise fouling...
b. Failure to hit a correct ball first. (A player who is shooting
stripes must hit a striped ball first.) The 8-ball is not neutral.
In general, the shooter has the advantage in close hit situations
unless his opponent has asked an outside party to watch the
hit. Protect yourself. If you think your opponent is getting
ready to shoot a shot that could possibly be a bad hit, stop him
from shooting and get someone to watch the shot. Potential
bad hit situations are usually fairly obvious and protests and
disputes over these close situations can almost always be
avoided if someone is asked to watch the shot. If the outside
party cannot determine which ball was struck first, the call
goes to the shooter. Teams involved in repeatedly calling bad
hits without outside party verification may be subject to penalty
points for disruptive unsportsmanlike behavior...
g. Causing even the slightest movement or altering the course of
the cue ball, even accidentally, is a foul. Even dropping the
chalk on the cue ball is a foul. It is not a foul, however, to accidentally
move any other balls (including the 8-ball) unless,
during his turn at the table, a player moves a ball and it in turn
comes in contact with the cue ball. Any balls moved accidentally
during a shot must be replaced by the opponent after the
shot is over and all balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before
the shot, it must be replaced before the shot is taken.
8-Ball Game Rules
51
EXCEPTION: If an accidentally moved ball comes in contact
with the cue ball, creating a foul, no object ball will be replaced.
h. If, during the course of a shot, the cue ball does not touch
anything.
i. Exercise caution when picking up or placing the cue ball in a
ball-in-hand situation. The cue ball is always alive. If the
cue ball, or the hand holding or moving it, touches another
ball it is a cue ball foul and your opponent has ball-in-hand.
Be especially careful when you are picking up or placing the
cue ball in a tight spot...



Note, that the original question from semper fi was in reference to balls that were close together (within about 1/4" apart). Balls very close together would fall within the rules for the Push Shot as previously posted.

Also note that the original topic that we were responding to was in reference to the APA rules as a whole. Not the APA rules in your territory. Every territory may have it's own set of bylaws to govern how it functions. But the APA national rules are standard and consistent.

APA referees are not standard for normal league play throughout the nation. This raised some questions that would be interesting... What kind of APA referees do you have in your area? Where did they get trained and certified? Do you have at least 1 referee in every division in your area? Do they play on some other teams in that division, or do they just come out solely to referee? Is it a paid position, or are they compensated in some way, if so how? Do they all referee at the national APA events as well?