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jay helfert
08-08-2008, 08:02 AM
This may only be relevant to those in the Phoenix area and who attended the ill fated Desert Shootout back in April. But by now all of you know what happened. The "promoter" Chuck Bobbit wrote bad checks to all the top finishers in the event. Johnny, Mika, Mike Davis, John Schmidt, Charley Bryant all got stiffed, me included.

Mark Griffin bailed us out to the tune of .70 cents on the dollar. Bobbit was supposed to pay the other 30%. He made a big deal of telling me and others that he would get it taken care of quickly, certainly within a few months. Didn't happen! Now he's closed his business and quit communicating. He doesn't answer e-mails or phone calls. He still owes Johnny thousands and all told nearly ten grand to everyone who got bad checks.

I for one am not going to "forgive" this debt. I have all the paperwork from the Maricopa County sheriff's department for filing bad check charges on him. And I have his home address and driver's license number. If he refuses to communicate in the next week, I'm filing on his ass. This is my public notice to him. So if you see him around Phoenix tell him Jay says hi.

bfdlad
08-08-2008, 08:08 AM
This may only be relevant to those in the Phoenix area and who attended the ill fated Desert Shootout back in April. But by now all of you know what happened. The "promoter" Chuck Bobbit wrote bad checks to all the top finishers in the event. Johnny, Mika, Mike Davis, John Schmidt, Charley Bryant all got stiffed, me included.

Mark Griffin bailed us out to the tune of .70 cents on the dollar. Bobbit was supposed to pay the other 30%. He made a big deal of telling me and others that he would get it taken care of quickly, certainly within a few months. Didn't happen! Now he's closed his business and quit communicating. He doesn't answer e-mails or phone calls. He still owes Johnny thousands and all told nearly ten grand to everyone who got bad checks.

I for one am not going to "forgive" this debt. I have all the paperwork from the Maricopa County sheriff's department for filing bad check charges on him. And I have his home address and driver's license number. If he refuses to communicate in the next week, I'm filing on his ass. This is my public notice to him. So if you see him around Phoenix tell him Jay says hi.
Jay, I am guessing that you called his cell # etc. I am just wondering who has been trying to make contact with him and if his phone is still working. I am not sure it will do any good but I have his cell # I can try and call him later today and see if he has anything to say.

mosconiac
08-08-2008, 08:11 AM
I applaud you for taking a stand, Jay. Being a pro is a tough gig, so the last thing we need is someone stiffing the competitors. Don't let him slip away.

I didn't pay attention to this story when it was developing, but I am impressed to hear that Mark Griffin stepped up yet again for the good of the game. That guy is a true asset to the industry.

CrownCityCorey
08-08-2008, 08:32 AM
This may only be relevant to those in the Phoenix area and who attended the ill fated Desert Shootout back in April. But by now all of you know what happened. The "promoter" Chuck Bobbit wrote bad checks to all the top finishers in the event. Johnny, Mika, Mike Davis, John Schmidt, Charley Bryant all got stiffed, me included.

Mark Griffin bailed us out to the tune of .70 cents on the dollar. Bobbit was supposed to pay the other 30%. He made a big deal of telling me and others that he would get it taken care of quickly, certainly within a few months. Didn't happen! Now he's closed his business and quit communicating. He doesn't answer e-mails or phone calls. He still owes Johnny thousands and all told nearly ten grand to everyone who got bad checks.

I for one am not going to "forgive" this debt. I have all the paperwork from the Maricopa County sheriff's department for filing bad check charges on him. And I have his home address and driver's license number. If he refuses to communicate in the next week, I'm filing on his ass. This is my public notice to him. So if you see him around Phoenix tell him Jay says hi.

My understanding was that terms in acceptance of the 70% from Mark was an agreement not to litigate. Mark wanted to keep Chuck out of Jail.

watchez
08-08-2008, 08:35 AM
I would like to say I am surprised but obviously I am not. 98% of the world is the same about money & once in that category they never come out. I applaud Jay Helfert for sticking to his guns & not letting up on this issue. Remember, I believe Jay was only out $300. He is still fighting for the players.

Bad is bad. Good is good. You cannot pick your morals & decide when you feel sorry for someone. There should be no gray area when it comes to your morals. Chuck is bad. I am sorry to say that, but there is no denying he knew the checks were bad when he wrote them and still has done nothing on HIS OWN to make this situation right.

BRKNRUN
08-08-2008, 08:41 AM
I would like to say I am surprised but obviously I am not. 98% of the world is the same about money & once in that category they never come out. I applaud Jay Helfert for sticking to his guns & not letting up on this issue. Remember, I believe Jay was only out $300. He is still fighting for the players.

Bad is bad. Good is good. You cannot pick your morals & decide when you feel sorry for someone. There should be no gray area when it comes to your morals. Chuck is bad. I am sorry to say that, but there is no denying he knew the checks were bad when he wrote them and still has done nothing on HIS OWN to make this situation right.


I guess I am just really curious how you know that statement for fact?????

watchez
08-08-2008, 08:46 AM
I guess I am just really curious how you know that statement for fact?????
Has he paid a nickel out of his pocket? Has he contacted Jay or any of the other players the past few months so say he needs more time? Has he used his good name & credit standing that he has accomplished in his years of life to borrow the money from a loan institution? Has he done anything but hope this situation goes away? From the previous thread on this, Mark Griffin bought the tables in order for ANY money to get paid to the players. Without Mark, the players would have gotten nothing but the rubber checks that Chuck wrote.

Nostroke
08-08-2008, 08:52 AM
I know this isnt popular opinion but i think it should be let go at this point. The guy got in over his head imo. Im sure he didnt close his businesses if they were making money. The guy is busted unlike other promotors who took the money and ran.

If he ever gets flush, I think he will pay.In the meantime, i dont think you should chase him.

BRKNRUN
08-08-2008, 08:54 AM
Has he paid a nickel out of his pocket? Has he contacted Jay or any of the other players the past few months so say he needs more time? Has he used his good name & credit standing that he has accomplished in his years of life to borrow the money from a loan institution? Has he done anything but hope this situation goes away? From the previous thread on this, Mark Griffin bought the tables in order for ANY money to get paid to the players. Without Mark, the players would have gotten nothing but the rubber checks that Chuck wrote.


In other words....NO you don't know....otherwise you would not be asking the above questions..

The only thing you DO know is that Mark bought the tables from him...And you are only assuming that no one else would have bought them if Mark did not but them.

The FACT is that Chuck had activly listed the tables for sale "before" Mark offered to buy them.....So the FACT is Chuck DID did activily do something to rectify the situation.

watchez
08-08-2008, 09:04 AM
In other words....NO you don't know....otherwise you would not be asking the above questions..


Those were rhetorical questions.

Facts are the players and Jay got stiffed. Chuck wrote checks knowing they were bad. Chuck has not paid a nickel out of his pocket to any of the players. The money that was suppose to be added not only wasn't added but money was taken out of the tournament. Chuck is now not responding to Jay or anyone else and has cut off any chance of communication.

I will bet you $10,000 that in 4 months I could borrow or come up with $10,000. In fact, I will bet $10,000 that if I got ahold of Chuck I could help him borrow $10,000 in 4 months.

Grady
08-08-2008, 09:09 AM
If it was sanctioned by the UPA they should pay.

Black-Balled
08-08-2008, 09:36 AM
In other words....NO you don't know....otherwise you would not be asking the above questions..

The only thing you DO know is that Mark bought the tables from him...And you are only assuming that no one else would have bought them if Mark did not but them.

The FACT is that Chuck had activly listed the tables for sale "before" Mark offered to buy them.....So the FACT is Chuck DID did activily do something to rectify the situation.

Holy $hit! What is your point? Chuck has not come up with his end of the deal, even though his exposure was reduced by 70%.

And you defend his failure to keep his word on 2 deals by pointing us to some tables he had for-sale?! I might be of the opinion that he intended to require a pre-viewing deposit on $9, then steal that too.

Unfuggigugin believable!

BRKNRUN
08-08-2008, 09:56 AM
Those were rhetorical questions.

Facts are the players and Jay got stiffed. Chuck wrote checks knowing they were bad. Chuck has not paid a nickel out of his pocket to any of the players. The money that was suppose to be added not only wasn't added but money was taken out of the tournament. Chuck is now not responding to Jay or anyone else and has cut off any chance of communication.

I will bet you $10,000 that in 4 months I could borrow or come up with $10,000. In fact, I will bet $10,000 that if I got ahold of Chuck I could help him borrow $10,000 in 4 months.


Get real...like I am really going to bet 10K that you can come up with 10K..I may look like a sucker...I may even play pool like a sucker...but last I checked I am not a sucker....;)

Reality is that I am sure he could use some help if he is now out of business.

Chuck sold the tables to help start paying off the debt...Isn't that money out of his pocket......(liquified assets)

I don't know if you have noticed since your avitar is a grandstand with you standing there holding a wad of cash....You are apparantly flush and have no debt worries... but times are tough in today's economy.

Alexanders is now closed...(This was where the tables were sold from and where Chuck frequented the most)

Chuck has apparantly lost his business...(aka source of income)...and I doubt he could readily sell a house (if he owns one) in todays market since brand new freshly built homes are sitting empty, half built developments have stopped building, foreclusures are happening left and right and investors are tucking tail and running because they can't get their investment properties sold (or even rented)

Chuck is not a spring chicken...I doubt he is going to find a job opportunity that he is physically capable of doing very quickly...

It is super easy for you to sit back in your sheas lounge and cast stones at people that you have probably never even met.......enjoy your speculation and rhetorical questions...

BRKNRUN
08-08-2008, 10:02 AM
Holy $hit! What is your point? Chuck has not come up with his end of the deal, even though his exposure was reduced by 70%.

And you defend his failure to keep his word on 2 deals by pointing us to some tables he had for-sale?! I might be of the opinion that he intended to require a pre-viewing deposit on $9, then steal that too.

Unfuggigugin believable!


I don't think I am defending is failure.. He got in over his head...mad bad business decisions etc. etc. etc.

What I am saying is quit your ****ing speculation when you don't know shit about shit.

Jay made a formal post...There is nothing wrong with what Jay did...its the idiots that jump on and start a speculation **** fest that bothers me....

That is what is Unfuggigugin believable!

watchez
08-08-2008, 10:15 AM
I like to lay on my couch - no lounge chair for me.

I used to work 3 jobs. Now I only work 2.

Chuck has had 120 days to come up with $10,000 (if I am wrong on this figure, please correct me but that is what I remember). Let's do some simple math - $10,000 / 120 days = $83.00 needed per day. That would be a pretty good part time job to come up with the $83. However, if he got, say a job at Walmart, making $10 an hour and worked 5 hours a day, say 7PM - Midnight, he would have 1/2 the money he owed. Surely, if he came to the parties he owed and told his tale that he was out working at Walmart to help make this right & handed over $5,000 now- they would be understanding and give him more time to come up with the rest of the $$$ in another 4 months.

Anyways, people have stated that Chuck is a great guy that just had one bad experience & poor timing with this experience. All I am saying is that surely he has made acquaintances that don't want to see this man dragged down & would step up to help him out.

Black-Balled
08-08-2008, 10:23 AM
... Unfuggigugin believable!

Amen, AZBro!

sunnyday
08-08-2008, 10:28 AM
All this very unfortuante... for EVERYONE. I am not taking anyone's side, especially not Chuck B's. However, if I remember correctly he had a year to make the standings good. It may be long time to wait, but I think everyone had agreed to that term.

And for Chuck B, not communicating back... the man had just lost his business. I think he probably feels way too overwhelmed by now... Maybe give him some space and let him gather himself?

I don't know the man personally... but I do hope he honors his end of the bargain.

S.

BRKNRUN
08-08-2008, 10:35 AM
I like to lay on my couch - no lounge chair for me.

I used to work 3 jobs. Now I only work 2.

Chuck has had 120 days to come up with $10,000 (if I am wrong on this figure, please correct me but that is what I remember). Let's do some simple math - $10,000 / 120 days = $83.00 needed per day. That would be a pretty good part time job to come up with the $83. However, if he got, say a job at Walmart, making $10 an hour and worked 5 hours a day, say 7PM - Midnight, he would have 1/2 the money he owed. Surely, if he came to the parties he owed and told his tale that he was out working at Walmart to help make this right & handed over $5,000 now- they would be understanding and give him more time to come up with the rest of the $$$ in another 4 months.

Anyways, people have stated that Chuck is a great guy that just had one bad experience & poor timing with this experience. All I am saying is that surely he has made acquaintances that don't want to see this man dragged down & would step up to help him out.


That sounds like a viable plan. I don't have any idea if Chuck has tried to seek out an option like that or not.....No Clue...

I have not seen Chuck since this whole event happened and Alexanders is now closed and that is usually where I crossed paths with him.

I don't know the rest of his life story and don't care to speculate.

All I know is that Jay posted that Chuck stopped communicating with him. Why that is I don't know...and I don't care to specualte why either.

You are correct that Chuck should be communicating with the parties involved...I am not sure if he is or isn't and/or if Jay is the someone he should be communicating with...I am not privy to all the details of the situation....All I now is that Jay posted he stopped communicating.

I am sure if someone local sees him as bfdlad posted they will let Chuck know to contact Jay......Other than that I have no clue who he has or has not contacted.

jay helfert
08-08-2008, 10:37 AM
All this very unfortuante... for EVERYONE. I am not taking anyone's side, especially not Chuck B's. However, if I remember correctly he had a year to make the standings good. It may be long time to wait, but I think everyone had agreed to that term.

And for Chuck B, not communicating back... the man had just lost his business. I think he probably feels way too overwhelmed by now... Maybe give him some space and let him gather himself?

I don't know the man personally... but I do hope he honors his end of the bargain.

S.

Look Sunny, here is how I feel about this. We NEVER put any time frame in writing, just agreed to give him time to make good. He told me then, that he would have it paid off in three months or less. That time frame has come and gone, and now he does not answer my calls or e-mails.

He has lied to me over and over again from the get go. I don't owe him one more day!

sunnyday
08-08-2008, 10:59 AM
Look Sunny, here is how I feel about this. We NEVER put any time frame in writing, just agreed to give him time to make good. He told me then, that he would have it paid off in three months or less. That time frame has come and gone, and now he does not answer my calls or e-mails.

He has lied to me over and over again from the get go. I don't owe him one more day!

Sorry Jay, I was confused thinking he was given a year...

I wasn't trying to make any excuses for CB or to say he deserves any pardoning... he did many things wrong here, but I don't think his intention in the beginning to rip people off. Just things start to go wrong and he eventually lost control of EVERYTHING.

I do hope someone gets his attention for him to settle this out of court.

Good luck to you and everyone who needs settling.

S.

Quesports
08-08-2008, 11:48 AM
Look Sunny, here is how I feel about this. We NEVER put any time frame in writing, just agreed to give him time to make good. He told me then, that he would have it paid off in three months or less. That time frame has come and gone, and now he does not answer my calls or e-mails.

He has lied to me over and over again from the get go. I don't owe him one more day!

Jay,

I agree with your decision completely. If he is allowed to take advantage of you, as well as many others, without repercussions what is that going to tell him? The only way that people learn to stop this behavior is to punish them. Talk is cheap. Take legal action as necessary to recoup your losses before it is too late.
JMO
Dan

JimS
08-08-2008, 12:02 PM
No more Mr. Niceguy.

Bigtruck
08-08-2008, 01:46 PM
No more Mr. Niceguy.

Breaking family members thumbs works good too, but I would recommend the legal course!:ok: :shocked2:

Ray

Nostroke
08-08-2008, 01:58 PM
Jay,

I agree with your decision completely. If he is allowed to take advantage of you, as well as many others, without repercussions what is that going to tell him? The only way that people learn to stop this behavior is to punish them. Talk is cheap. Take legal action as necessary to recoup your losses before it is too late.
JMO
Dan

If it was a first or second time promoter i could see your point but this guy put on tournaments and paid off for years as i understand it. He is in his 50's or 60's right? He just fu*ked up IMHO.

ShootingArts
08-08-2008, 02:20 PM
Sunny,

The one year timetable on the contract was reported right here on AZB. I don't know if that was accurate or if Jay signed a contract. I think all of the players that accepted Mark's deal did. The terms of the contract are binding on both parties so all the players can do is wait a year if that is what the contract says. No lawyer or DA will touch trying to enforce a contract that isn't in default.

Hu



Sorry Jay, I was confused thinking he was given a year...

I wasn't trying to make any excuses for CB or to say he deserves any pardoning... he did many things wrong here, but I don't think his intention in the beginning to rip people off. Just things start to go wrong and he eventually lost control of EVERYTHING.

I do hope someone gets his attention for him to settle this out of court.

Good luck to you and everyone who needs settling.

S.

Bigtruck
08-08-2008, 05:04 PM
Sunny,

The one year timetable on the contract was reported right here on AZB. I don't know if that was accurate or if Jay signed a contract. I think all of the players that accepted Mark's deal did. The terms of the contract are binding on both parties so all the players can do is wait a year if that is what the contract says. No lawyer or DA will touch trying to enforce a contract that isn't in default.

Hu

Here's the Quote from Jay :;)

Ray

Okay, good news at last. Mark Griffin has come to the rescue of the pool players and me. He bought some pool tables that Chuck Bobbitt owned and paid the money (thru an agreement with Chuck) directly to us. This was all finalized last night here in Las Vegas.

We each got paid 70% of what we were owed. In Johnny's case, he was owed $12,000 (for his bad check), and he received $8,400. Mark wrote us all checks and we endorsed them and he cashed them immediately. So now, we have a balance of 30% still due from Chuck Bobbitt. We each received a Promissory Note saying that Chuck has a year to pay this debt with 10% interest.
No one is holding our breaths regarding the 30% still due us, but privately Chuck is saying he wants to clear this up as quickly as possible. We'll see!
All of us are quite glad that Mark stepped in here. There was one more unexpected bonus for the five players still due money. The UPA had received a $1,500 Sanctioning Fee from Bobbitt prior to the tournament. Frank Alvarez released that money to Mark and each player then received $300 from that fund to be applied to the balance due them. I got left out of that one, but that's cool with me.

I'm so glad that this happened. I have had more than a few sleepless nights since I left Phoenix. It only took like a million phone calls between several parties to make this happen. I truly appreciate what Mark did here. He didn't need to buy these tables.

av84fun
08-08-2008, 05:19 PM
Here's the Quote from Jay :;)

Ray

Even without a specific time limit, given the "settlement" and substantial restitution (70%) under a written agreement such as a promissory note, the matter has become a civil, not a criminal issue IMHO.

BEST WISHES to Jay in his pursuit of a guy who knew he was screwing people when he did it.

Regards,
Jim

jay helfert
08-08-2008, 07:58 PM
Here's the Quote from Jay :;)

Ray

Ray, there is such a note that Chuck signed. To my knowledge, none of us signed the note. I sure didn't! All we ever signed was our signature saying we received the 70% payment from Mark Griffin. After the way the guy has lied to me over and over about the checks and the repayment, I don't feel like I owe him a break in any way.

To be blunt, my attitude about a thief (and that's what he is in my eyes), is that he becomes fair game for any retribution that comes his way. He told me several times via phone and e-mails that he would clear this debt (the remaining 30%) within three months. Okay so that's August 15 starting from May 15 when we were paid the 70%. What bothers me most now is that he is refusing to communicate with me. That's always a bad sign. I happen to know he is still in the same home and working out of there. I have friends in Phoenix that keep me posted. Bottom line, I want all these guys paid in full! PERIOD!

Bigtruck
08-08-2008, 08:18 PM
Ray, there is such a note that Chuck signed. To my knowledge, none of us signed the note. I sure didn't! All we ever signed was our signature saying we received the 70% payment from Mark Griffin. After the way the guy has lied to me over and over about the checks and the repayment, I don't feel like I owe him a break in any way.

To be blunt, my attitude about a thief (and that's what he is in my eyes), is that he becomes fair game for any retribution that comes his way. He told me several times via phone and e-mails that he would clear this debt (the remaining 30%) within three months. Okay so that's August 15 starting from May 15 when we were paid the 70%. What bothers me most now is that he is refusing to communicate with me. That's always a bad sign. I happen to know he is still in the same home and working out of there. I have friends in Phoenix that keep me posted. Bottom line, I want all these guys paid in full! PERIOD!

Jay,

I admire your tenacity and your commitment to pool in general. All of us that enjoy the sport are better off because of you and what you've contributed. We are lucky to have you as an ambassador!

I sincerely think, since you didn't voice any objection when you received the promissory note, you should pursue Chuck fully at the end of 12 months if no payment is received. Obviously he was being optimistic with his words and more realistic with the note.

Keep up the great work! I can't wait to come see you work at one of your events.

Thanks,

Ray

Spade
08-08-2008, 08:59 PM
Jay, i think its commendable that you are working for the players.
i wish you success !

Ed Simmons
08-08-2008, 09:10 PM
Note to self:

Never piss off Jay.

Bigtruck
08-08-2008, 09:16 PM
Note to self:

Never piss off Jay.

Or his friends!:grin:

Ray

Fatboy
08-08-2008, 11:01 PM
All this very unfortuante... for EVERYONE. I am not taking anyone's side, especially not Chuck B's. However, if I remember correctly he had a year to make the standings good. It may be long time to wait, but I think everyone had agreed to that term.

And for Chuck B, not communicating back... the man had just lost his business. I think he probably feels way too overwhelmed by now... Maybe give him some space and let him gather himself?

I don't know the man personally... but I do hope he honors his end of the bargain.

S.


i think there was a year plus juice, thats how i remember it.

av84fun
08-08-2008, 11:31 PM
Note to self:

Never piss off Jay.

PS: Never piss ON Jay either!!!

(-:

smokey
08-09-2008, 04:47 AM
Look Sunny, here is how I feel about this. We NEVER put any time frame in writing, just agreed to give him time to make good. He told me then, that he would have it paid off in three months or less. That time frame has come and gone, and now he does not answer my calls or e-mails.

He has lied to me over and over again from the get go. I don't owe him one more day!

remember me - smokey badass?

you owed me games and weight too before you ran off to LA with no cheese from the poker tournament, remember???

just kidding, but hope to make a point cause i'm older and better lookin' (both i'd surly trade with you, or, play for);

i don'teven know what i'm thinking, so i have no idea how to express what i want to say... but maybe it is something like this...

you already made a lot happen for the players and as usual you were a great td. mr. mark g. helped a great deal.

a lot of good came out of what you did and really what fatboy expressed here on Az, even before you said a word (if my memory serves me).

just my thought being an old fool is this: hopefully the players came away just 'ok enough', mr. mark g. also, and you a little better than you began, but we all know you didn't care for yourself, the gentleman you are.

my point, if i can find it, is, all in all, things worked out pretty good (sorry but it is only my opinion) from what could have been a disaster. and imho, sometimes in life, "not perfect" can or should be acceptable.

i can't convince you, i know, i won't try. i am just telling you from the lessons i have had in life.

and say this; look at the blessings. we have so many.

all the best,
smokey

jay helfert
08-09-2008, 09:30 AM
remember me - smokey badass?

you owed me games and weight too before you ran off to LA with no cheese from the poker tournament, remember???

just kidding, but hope to make a point cause i'm older and better lookin' (both i'd surly trade with you, or, play for);

i don'teven know what i'm thinking, so i have no idea how to express what i want to say... but maybe it is something like this...

you already made a lot happen for the players and as usual you were a great td. mr. mark g. helped a great deal.

a lot of good came out of what you did and really what fatboy expressed here on Az, even before you said a word (if my memory serves me).

just my thought being an old fool is this: hopefully the players came away just 'ok enough', mr. mark g. also, and you a little better than you began, but we all know you didn't care for yourself, the gentleman you are.

my point, if i can find it, is, all in all, things worked out pretty good (sorry but it is only my opinion) from what could have been a disaster. and imho, sometimes in life, "not perfect" can or should be acceptable.

i can't convince you, i know, i won't try. i am just telling you from the lessons i have had in life.

and say this; look at the blessings. we have so many.

all the best,
smokey

Thanks for this Smokey. I hear you loud and clear. I'm just not willing to let this guy off the hook. I made a promise to the players to collect (particularly Johnny), and I intend to do just that. My sense is that waiting a year at this time will give this guy a good opportunity to totally disappear. Right now I do have a correct home address for him. I doubt he will be there in a few more months.

Bottom line, he made money off the event and stiffed the top finishers. I'll chase this guy as long as it takes to get them all paid! I want to know one good reason why he shouldn't have to pay. He HAD the money! That much I know. He just decided to pocket it instead of pay everyone. I get pissed every time I think about it. Bobbitt is not a good guy who got in over his head. He is a con man who took advantage of many of the best pool players in America. I view him in much the same way I do TruDough. Leeches on the pool community.

bud green
08-09-2008, 10:13 AM
Its the fact that he won't communicate back to Jay that makes this such a bad situation still.

If he just contacted Jay, sent him (or the players) whatever he could afford now, and give him some kind of timetable for the rest, this would all probably die down fast.

I agree with Watchez; lots of people have to work two jobs or 70+ hours a week to get by, I can't see why someone can't find some extra work to make good on their debt. It sucks, but I'd rather work weekends than wakeup every morning with this crap hanging over me.

He's probably a real nice guy who just made some mistakes, but he needs to try harder to make it right. Hiding from people isn't going to do anything but make it worse and worse...

cardiac kid
08-09-2008, 10:22 AM
If it was sanctioned by the UPA they should pay.

Grady,

I'm surprised no one has discussed your comment. Everything seems to be about the tournament promoter and Jay. I remember when I joined the UPA as a player / member many years ago, one of the basic tenants was: (1) all prize money to be held in escrow. (2) The players were paid from the escrow account. This was a UPA sanctioned event wasn't it? Did I miss something?

Lyn

selftaut
08-09-2008, 10:46 AM
Grady,

I'm surprised no one has discussed your comment. Everything seems to be about the tournament promoter and Jay. I remember when I joined the UPA as a player / member many years ago, one of the basic tenants was: (1) all prize money to be held in escrow. (2) The players were paid from the escrow account. This was a UPA sanctioned event wasn't it? Did I miss something?

Lyn

Lyn, you didn't miss anything. They abondoned that theory at some point, as they thought it was holding back getting tournaments on board.

Kev

chamillionare
08-09-2008, 11:29 AM
Thanks for this Smokey. I hear you loud and clear. I'm just not willing to let this guy off the hook. I made a promise to the players to collect (particularly Johnny), and I intend to do just that. My sense is that waiting a year at this time will give this guy a good opportunity to totally disappear. Right now I do have a correct home address for him. I doubt he will be there in a few more months.

Bottom line, he made money off the event and stiffed the top finishers. I'll chase this guy as long as it takes to get them all paid! I want to know one good reason why he shouldn't have to pay. He HAD the money! That much I know. He just decided to pocket it instead of pay everyone. I get pissed every time I think about it. Bobbitt is not a good guy who got in over his head. He is a con man who took advantage of many of the best pool players in America. I view him in much the same way I do TruDough. Leeches on the pool community.


jay we have never meet but you seem to have had alot of experience with american pool and as a td with common sense etc. i cant as much as i try to put too much fault at kt's feet, why do you view kt as a leach on the pool community?

jay helfert
08-09-2008, 12:13 PM
jay we have never meet but you seem to have had alot of experience with american pool and as a td with common sense etc. i cant as much as i try to put too much fault at kt's feet, why do you view kt as a leach on the pool community?

He also stiffed the players, taking 16 months to pay off his last event. And he had the money! He just decided not to pay and I doubt he would have paid anything, except he became concerned about possible criminal action against him. He could have faced 10-20 years if he had been brought into Federal Court for all the offenses he committed, like using the mail and internet to defraud.

Bottom line he got scared Quinten and decided to make a deal and pay the players piecemeal. He didn't do it out of the goodness of his heart. Trust me on that one, no matter what some people may say on here.

He has never paid off the guys who put $2,000 into "Qualifiers" for non existent events. Fraud at best, criminal at worst.

av84fun
08-09-2008, 12:28 PM
Noble sentiments Smokey. Often "forgive and forget" is the correct thing to do. BUT the INTENT of the wrongdoer is what should motivate the response to his deeds.

LOTS of people make mistakes that end up hurting other people. Sometimes such mistakes are hard to forgive but if they were truly "mistakes"...based on bad judgment, over-zealousness or in some cases, just plain stupidity might well be forgiven.

But when the misdeed is INTENTIONAL...when the guy does wrong and KNOWS he is doing wrong when he does it, then punishment needs to be extracted because, if not, that sort of behavior becomes reinforced making it more likely that the bad boy will be bad over and over.

And remember, even in religious terms, forgiveness must be ASKED for...genuinely and with honest remorse. It is NOT granted automatically!

This bad boy not only ripped off Jay and the other players but he did it knowingly and then lied to Jay about making restitution.

Congratulations to Jay for being willing to see to it that the guy doesn't just skate...AGAIN...and end up doing the same thing to others in the future. Without people like Jay, our society would become Mad Max!

Regards,
Jim

remember me - smokey badass?

you owed me games and weight too before you ran off to LA with no cheese from the poker tournament, remember???

just kidding, but hope to make a point cause i'm older and better lookin' (both i'd surly trade with you, or, play for);

i don'teven know what i'm thinking, so i have no idea how to express what i want to say... but maybe it is something like this...

you already made a lot happen for the players and as usual you were a great td. mr. mark g. helped a great deal.

a lot of good came out of what you did and really what fatboy expressed here on Az, even before you said a word (if my memory serves me).

just my thought being an old fool is this: hopefully the players came away just 'ok enough', mr. mark g. also, and you a little better than you began, but we all know you didn't care for yourself, the gentleman you are.

my point, if i can find it, is, all in all, things worked out pretty good (sorry but it is only my opinion) from what could have been a disaster. and imho, sometimes in life, "not perfect" can or should be acceptable.

i can't convince you, i know, i won't try. i am just telling you from the lessons i have had in life.

and say this; look at the blessings. we have so many.

all the best,
smokey

Nostroke
08-09-2008, 01:27 PM
.

Bottom line, he made money off the event and stiffed the top finishers.


If he did, that is a different story- I thought the tournament was a complete flop as far as the $$ went. How did he make money jay?

smokey
08-09-2008, 01:52 PM
Thanks for this Smokey. I hear you loud and clear. I'm just not willing to let this guy off the hook. I made a promise to the players to collect (particularly Johnny), and I intend to do just that. My sense is that waiting a year at this time will give this guy a good opportunity to totally disappear. Right now I do have a correct home address for him. I doubt he will be there in a few more months.

Bottom line, he made money off the event and stiffed the top finishers. I'll chase this guy as long as it takes to get them all paid! I want to know one good reason why he shouldn't have to pay. He HAD the money! That much I know. He just decided to pocket it instead of pay everyone. I get pissed every time I think about it. Bobbitt is not a good guy who got in over his head. He is a con man who took advantage of many of the best pool players in America. I view him in much the same way I do TruDough. Leeches on the pool community.

i guess i didn't have my facts straight. your second paragraph above cleared that up. i didn't know he HAD the money - i got it now.

i hope it all works out soon for everybody concerned!

best,
smokey

smokey
08-09-2008, 01:56 PM
Nobel sentiments Smokey. Often "forgive and forget" is the correct thing to do. BUT the INTENT of the wrongdoer is what should motivate the response to his deeds.

LOTS of people make mistakes that end up hurting other people. Sometimes such mistakes are hard to forgive but if they were truly "mistakes"...based on bad judgment, over-zealousness or in some cases, just plain stupidity might well be forgiven.

But when the misdeed is INTENTIONAL...when the guy does wrong and KNOWS he is doing wrong when he does it, then punishment needs to be extracted because, if not, that sort of behavior becomes reinforced making it more likely that the bad boy will be bad over and over.

And remember, even in religious terms, forgiveness must be ASKED for...genuinely and with honest remorse. It is NOT granted automatically!

This bad boy not only ripped of Jay and the other players but he did it knowingly and then lied to Jay about making restitution.

Congratulations to Jay for being willing to see to it that the guy doesn't just skate...AGAIN...and end up doing the same thing to others in the future. Without people like Jay, our society would become Mad Max!

Regards,
Jim

i just found out my memory need a refresher from jay, and he gave it to me!

and so i have to agree with you now too.

thanks,
smokey

TWOFORPOOL
08-09-2008, 02:08 PM
Lets get something straight about Jay:

1. He is the best Tournament Director in the country BAR NONE. He gets the players to the events because of his reputation for this.

2. He is one of the nicest persons I have had the pleasure to meet. An asset in the pool world.

3. A very honest person. His word is everything.

This tournament put a bruise on his reputation and he isn't going to let ANYBODY get away hitting him like this without a fight.

The thing I really like about Jay is how nice he is (until you gamble with him on a pool table, then he will rip your heart out if he can!!!).

Good luck Jay getting this guy since I'm positive you will make him pay.

Scott Lee
08-09-2008, 02:14 PM
TWOFORPOOL...Let's get one more thing straight. Jay may be a very good tournament director, but "best in the country, bar none"? I don't think so, and I believe Jay will say the same thing. Scott Smith is who runs all the major events in this country (U.S. Open & DCC, just to name a couple of biggies). One more thing...the players show up for the $$$, not the tournament director. No offense to Jay!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Lets get something straight about Jay:

1. He is the best Tournament Director in the country BAR NONE. He gets the players to the events because of his reputation for this.

Milo
08-09-2008, 02:17 PM
There are many top notch TDs in this country. Jay is one of them.

JMS
08-09-2008, 03:10 PM
This may only be relevant to those in the Phoenix area and who attended the ill fated Desert Shootout back in April. But by now all of you know what happened. The "promoter" Chuck Bobbit wrote bad checks to all the top finishers in the event. Johnny, Mika, Mike Davis, John Schmidt, Charley Bryant all got stiffed, me included.

Mark Griffin bailed us out to the tune of .70 cents on the dollar. Bobbit was supposed to pay the other 30%. He made a big deal of telling me and others that he would get it taken care of quickly, certainly within a few months. Didn't happen! Now he's closed his business and quit communicating. He doesn't answer e-mails or phone calls. He still owes Johnny thousands and all told nearly ten grand to everyone who got bad checks.

I for one am not going to "forgive" this debt. I have all the paperwork from the Maricopa County sheriff's department for filing bad check charges on him. And I have his home address and driver's license number. If he refuses to communicate in the next week, I'm filing on his ass. This is my public notice to him. So if you see him around Phoenix tell him Jay says hi.




Does Chuck own a home? Maybe all the players that he owes money to can put a lien on his home. It may take a while to get thier money back, but he would not be able to sell it until he takes care of the liens on his home.

jay helfert
08-09-2008, 05:29 PM
If he did, that is a different story- I thought the tournament was a complete flop as far as the $$ went. How did he make money jay?


1. Collected $24,000 in entry fee money. 60 times $400.
2. Did approx. $12,500-15,000 at the gate.
3. Sold over $5,000 in raffle tickets (for a diamond table that he wrote a bad check on).

He did pay out approx. $17,500 of the prize money in cash to the lower finishing players. As you can see, there is a lot of money unaccounted for. That's what I'm talking about! Kapeche?

jay helfert
08-09-2008, 05:32 PM
TWOFORPOOL...Let's get one more thing straight. Jay may be a very good tournament director, but "best in the country, bar none"? I don't think so, and I believe Jay will say the same thing. Scott Smith is who runs all the major events in this country (U.S. Open & DCC, just to name a couple of biggies). One more thing...the players show up for the $$$, not the tournament director. No offense to Jay!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

No offense taken. :D

PETARD
08-09-2008, 06:00 PM
Does Chuck own a home? Maybe all the players that he owes money to can put a lien on his home. It may take a while to get thier money back, but he would not be able to sell it until he takes care of the liens on his home.

SOUNDS LIKE IT MAY BE TIME FOR THE COLLECTION GURU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sunnyday
08-09-2008, 07:34 PM
1. Collected $24,000 in entry fee money. 60 times $400.
2. Did approx. $12,500-15,000 at the gate.
3. Sold over $5,000 in raffle tickets (for a diamond table that he wrote a bad check on).

He did pay out approx. $17,500 of the prize money in cash to the lower finishing players. As you can see, there is a lot of money unaccounted for. That's what I'm talking about! Apache?

Wow! $12,500 - 15,000 at the gate from a pool hall? This must be the largest pool hall to get that kind of sitting...

Also, I heard he had lost the $10,000 deposit he had made at the Hotel that the deal went side ways on...

S.

cardiac kid
08-09-2008, 08:19 PM
One more thing...the players show up for the $$$, not the tournament director.

Scott,

Perhaps you never met the late Joe Kerr of Joker Promotions. Several of us in Upstate New York travelled hundreds of miles to play in events he directed. No offence to Jay. I played in several of his Reno Barbox events. Players do go where they feel wanted, respected and get paid!!!

Lyn

Fatboy
08-09-2008, 08:28 PM
Scott,

Players do go where they feel wanted, respected and get paid!!!

Lyn


Thats exactly right, Johnny Archer goes to all the Tournments that Shannon promotes that he can fit into his schedual, because of that reason.

jay helfert
08-09-2008, 09:28 PM
Wow! $12,500 - 15,000 at the gate from a pool hall? This must be the largest pool hall to get that kind of sitting...

Also, I heard he had lost the $10,000 deposit he had made at the Hotel that the deal went side ways on...

S.

Let's see Sunny, if you charge $60-100 for a season pass and sell over 100 of those, plus charge $20 a day and sell another 100+ tickets each day. What does that add up to? They brought in bleacher seating for well over 200 people. And we got good crowds every day! The place was packed on Friday and Saturday, and there were very few freebies.

$10,000 deposit. HOGWASH!!! You must be getting your information from Chuck. Not that he'd lie to you. :cool:

av84fun
08-09-2008, 09:47 PM
Does Chuck own a home? Maybe all the players that he owes money to can put a lien on his home. It may take a while to get thier money back, but he would not be able to sell it until he takes care of the liens on his home.

Unfortunately, you can't go around putting liens on people's homes.

Liens are generally available to protect the interersts of building contractors and governmental taxing authorities. And filing a lien, if the law provides that you can do so doesn't necessarily mean that the home will be sold. Liens just establish a right to receive proceeds of sale if one ever takes place.

In civil matters, you need to file a lawsuit and then get a judgment at which point you can force the sale of the loser's property in satisfaction of the judgment and it helps to have a lien that has priority in that sale.

In this matter, since there were checks written and promises broken there are both a civil and possibly criminal aspects.

Jay is a big boy and will do his own research and get competent legal advice, but if it was me, I would go the civil route since civil fraud is what is called an "intentional tort" that opens the door to punitive damages in any amount that the jury might find appropriate.

Writing bad checks and lying about restitution is the kind of behavior that piss jurors off and motivate them to hand down large awards.

Plaintiff's attorney fees can also be awarded and likely would be in a case like this.

I would only to the criminal route if I knew the bad guy had no assets and that suing would therefore be a waste of time.

Having said all the above, a civil suit could force Bobbitt into bankruptcy in which case most causes of action would be extinguished. But fraud might survive a bankruptcy filing.

Just my $0.02 as a non-lawyer.

Regards,
Jim

sunnyday
08-10-2008, 01:59 PM
Let's see Sunny, if you charge $60-100 for a season pass and sell over 100 of those, plus charge $20 a day and sell another 100+ tickets each day. What does that add up to? They brought in bleacher seating for well over 200 people. And we got good crowds every day! The place was packed on Friday and Saturday, and there were very few freebies.

$10,000 deposit. HOGWASH!!! You must be getting your information from Chuck. Not that he'd lie to you. :cool:

Jay,

I wasn't trying to over step my boundaries and I apologize if I came off that way. I do hear a lot of things and I know you shouldn't believe everything you hear - your resources are probably more relieable than mine... after all you were there.

I'm sure you will do what is right in your heart and no one will think bad of you for doing so. Many will say that Chuck had it coming to him...even.

I just wish there was a better way to resolve this matter without a legal action but Chuck is also making that impossible for not communicating with you.

While all this is going on, has anyone been able to contact Chuck? You would think someone from this forum should be able to get hold of him before things get real ugly:shakehead:

S.

Scott Lee
08-10-2008, 02:18 PM
Actually Jim, that is not quite correct. Even with a judgement from a lawsuit, NOBODY can force the sale of property (if you live there) to satisfy a debt. You're quite correct about when a lien is filed, the lienholder will get 'first dibs' on the proceeds, if and when a sale of that property occurs. If there is more than one creditor/lienholder, it goes by date of the lien filed.

Scott Lee ~ also not a lawyer, but has had experience in this area
www.poolknowledge.com

In civil matters, you need to file a lawsuit and then get a judgment at which point you can force the sale of the loser's property in satisfaction of the judgment and it helps to have a lien that has priority in that sale.

Just my $0.02 as a non-lawyer.

Jim

Scott Lee
08-10-2008, 02:21 PM
Lyn...I agree, and I knew Joe Kerr pretty well. He was a great guy, and excellent TD. However, with the dearth of tournaments out there, most players will go wherever they can, trying to win the $$$. This is just as true today, as it was 30+ years ago. It does help that there are some honest TD's out there. Unfortunately, there are still ripoffs too...as evident in this thread, and many others lately.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,

Perhaps you never met the late Joe Kerr of Joker Promotions. Several of us in Upstate New York travelled hundreds of miles to play in events he directed. No offence to Jay. I played in several of his Reno Barbox events. Players do go where they feel wanted, respected and get paid!!!

Lyn

Fatboy
08-10-2008, 02:39 PM
Scott is right, these days you got to make sure the $$$ is there if your a player who has a chance to win the tournment, yu litterly have to make the tournment director post the $$$, there have been some bad things happen this year in big tournments, like players getting installment payments after they won a tournment, like the one were discussing here. Its a shame, pool is so poor as it is and then to fade not getting paid is just too brutal. You know its bad when promoters have to get investors to pay off last years winner and run a ponzi scheme on his investors/advertizors.

Dawgie
08-10-2008, 03:54 PM
This subject ran on another thread a few months ago.

In this thread it was stated that Bobbit had the money. Maybe and maybe not. More details are needed to determine this.

Apparently he sold some tables to raise the money to pay some of the players. Did CB owe money on these tables he sold? In the earlier thread there were comments that he encountered some problems with a hotel he had booked/reserved. Most hotels don't lift a finger for any type of event without a deposit. Did he lose his deposit? CB must have had some advertising and promo. expenses. Did he run this tournament alone or did he have some employees? Who if anyone checked to insure that the prize money was available and accessible? How much did he pay out to the lower ranked players? Were the payouts guaranteed, if so how?

smokey
08-11-2008, 05:20 AM
1. Collected $24,000 in entry fee money. 60 times $400.
2. Did approx. $12,500-15,000 at the gate.
3. Sold over $5,000 in raffle tickets (for a diamond table that he wrote a bad check on).

He did pay out approx. $17,500 of the prize money in cash to the lower finishing players. As you can see, there is a lot of money unaccounted for. That's what I'm talking about! Kapeche?

i am shocked!

i thought he didn't even cover his costs when i wrote my first post here on this thread.

then i read what you said: he HAD all the payout money. and that alone caused me to apologize to you & av8.

but what you are saying here is really criminal beheavior on his part [i really didn't know this before].

it is unbelievable to me that chuck did this. being old (in my case) doesn't keep me from being naive sometimes.

in the end; i hope you get "All" the money "Including Interest"!!!!

thanks for your very clear post to set me straight. there is [almost] nothing more i detest than dishonesty/thievery.

i hope you get all that is due,
smokey

Scott Lee
08-11-2008, 07:55 AM
The tables were purchased new from Mark Griffin/Diamond, at wholesale, and were paid for. Mark bought them BACK from Mr. Bobbit, at the same price they were purchased for (this is after they had already been used at Alexanders for years...so he lost money on them), so that the players could get paid part of what they were owed. Once again, showing how generous Mark is, and how he has the players' best interests at heart.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Apparently he sold some tables to raise the money to pay some of the players. Did CB owe money on these tables he sold? ?

Rick S.
08-11-2008, 08:17 AM
I just heard this weekend from a very reputable source that Chuck has also lost his house.

The guy simply got in over his head, with no intentions of defrauding anyone. It just turned bad.....real bad.

This one event has ruined his life...losing his business, and now his house.

I feel for the guy..(as well as the people owed $$$)

He has sponsored MANY tournaments over the years here in Az. With all of them running smoothly, absolutely 0 problems.

I do think he's a man of his word, and will make good on the $$$ ASAP. (Which is kind of hard to do when your homeless, and jobless) Give the guy a little time.........

Bigtruck
08-11-2008, 08:35 AM
I just heard this weekend from a very reputable source that Chuck has also lost his house.

The guy simply got in over his head, with no intentions of defrauding anyone. It just turned bad.....real bad.

This one event has ruined his life...losing his business, and now his house.

I feel for the guy..(as well as the people owed $$$)

He has sponsored MANY tournaments over the years here in Az. With all of them running smoothly, absolutely 0 problems.

I do think he's a man of his word, and will make good on the $$$ ASAP. (Which is kind of hard to do when your homeless, and jobless) Give the guy a little time.........

If you go through life guided by your feelings you will have many heartaches!

If you think about what happened and the timeline, It appears he was in trouble in his business and with his mortgage before the event. I think he knew he could generate a substantial chunk of cash with a large venue like this and no one would question him because of his record. He took the money and ran.

There are many in prison today that "I feel for", but I think they deserve to be where they are.

Chuck is clearly NOT a man of his word! Just ask Jay.

Ray

ShootingArts
08-11-2008, 11:25 AM
Scott,

I heard a considerably different story from someone close to the source. The version that I heard was that Mark bought the tables at fair market value and they were leased out at the time generating income. Mark still did a very good thing to help the players but he shouldn't have gotten hurt on the deal himself while Chuck lost the income from the tables and so did come out behind in the transaction.

Several things don't make sense looking at the whole situation. Either Chuck is absolutely the dumbest crook I have ever heard of or his intentions were good.

Why write checks if he wasn't hoping to cover them kicking a civil matter up to a criminal matter?

Why sign promissory notes without having the other person sign them also?

If he intended to just take the money and run why sell tables that were producing income and let the money go directly to the players?

The whole situation doesn't add up to me if Chuck is really the con many people credit him with being!

Hu

(Scott I'm not really pursuing you, seems we are posting on the same topics this morning! :D )




The tables were purchased new from Mark Griffin/Diamond, at wholesale, and were paid for. Mark bought them BACK from Mr. Bobbit, at the same price they were purchased for (this is after they had already been used at Alexanders for years...so he lost money on them), so that the players could get paid part of what they were owed. Once again, showing how generous Mark is, and how he has the players' best interests at heart.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

jay helfert
08-11-2008, 12:17 PM
I just heard this weekend from a very reputable source that Chuck has also lost his house.

The guy simply got in over his head, with no intentions of defrauding anyone. It just turned bad.....real bad.

This one event has ruined his life...losing his business, and now his house.

I feel for the guy..(as well as the people owed $$$)

He has sponsored MANY tournaments over the years here in Az. With all of them running smoothly, absolutely 0 problems.

I do think he's a man of his word, and will make good on the $$$ ASAP. (Which is kind of hard to do when your homeless, and jobless) Give the guy a little time.........

If his life is "ruined" Rick, it was not because of this tournament or it's outcome. I believe he used the money he made off this tournament to pay some past due bills. That's my educated guess.

He did sell the tables at "market price" to Mark Griffin. Scott had the wrong info here. As to why he sold them, he was forced to, because of the threat of going to jail otherwise. Seems to me he operates on the same set of principles as KT. Pay only if you have to! And then pay only what you must.

I am not naive to the ways of this world and will call a spade a spade when I see it. If some find that objectionable, I'm sorry. But I won't be altering my course any time soon.

Oh and for Hu, most criminals are DUMB! I don't think he thought any further ahead then to give these guys checks and send them on their way. He knew he could stall them for a few weeks this way, and he did! I don't think he really had a plan, other than to get his hands on some dough. He USED the pool players plain and simple. And me!

BRKNRUN
08-11-2008, 12:25 PM
Scott,

I heard a considerably different story from someone close to the source. The version that I heard was that Mark bought the tables at fair market value and they were leased out at the time generating income. Mark still did a very good thing to help the players but he shouldn't have gotten hurt on the deal himself while Chuck lost the income from the tables and so did come out behind in the transaction.

Several things don't make sense looking at the whole situation. Either Chuck is absolutely the dumbest crook I have ever heard of or his intentions were good.

Why write checks if he wasn't hoping to cover them kicking a civil matter up to a criminal matter?

Why sign promissory notes without having the other person sign them also?

If he intended to just take the money and run why sell tables that were producing income and let the money go directly to the players?

The whole situation doesn't add up to me if Chuck is really the con many people credit him with being!

Hu

(Scott I'm not really pursuing you, seems we are posting on the same topics this morning! :D )

Didn't I read that he personally cashed out at least one of the checks ???

If that is true, I wonder why would he have done that if he knew the checks were no good or intended to bilk the players?

jay helfert
08-11-2008, 12:40 PM
Didn't I read that he personally cashed out at least one of the checks ???

If that is true, I wonder why would he have done that if he knew the checks were no good or intended to bilk the players?

He cashed one check for Rob Saez. Good move by Rob! He may have smelled something, but I suspect he just wanted the money RIGHT NOW! He knew Chuck was sitting on a wad of cash right then. What happened to that wad, nobody knows except Chuck. One thing for sure, it didn't make it to the bank!

watchez
08-11-2008, 01:51 PM
There is an acronym used when someone has financial troubles and goes from having money to having none, giving the reason for it

D rugs
A lcohol
W omen
G ambling

Nostroke
08-11-2008, 02:45 PM
Scott,

I heard a considerably different story from someone close to the source. The version that I heard was that Mark bought the tables at fair market value and they were leased out at the time generating income. Mark still did a very good thing to help the players but he shouldn't have gotten hurt on the deal himself while Chuck lost the income from the tables and so did come out behind in the transaction.

Several things don't make sense looking at the whole situation. Either Chuck is absolutely the dumbest crook I have ever heard of or his intentions were good.

Why write checks if he wasn't hoping to cover them kicking a civil matter up to a criminal matter?

Why sign promissory notes without having the other person sign them also?

If he intended to just take the money and run why sell tables that were producing income and let the money go directly to the players?

The whole situation doesn't add up to me if Chuck is really the con many people credit him with being!

Hu

(Scott I'm not really pursuing you, seems we are posting on the same topics this morning! :D )


Thats pretty much how I see it. Id bet 5 thousand it was not a deliberate thief job but of course thats stupid cause there is no way of really knowing.

At anyrate, if he has hidden money from this event, a surplus that is, then he should be pursued til his dying day.

If he really is busted, lost his house, business and tables etc, then anyone not living on the street should leave him alone IMHO.

BRKNRUN
08-11-2008, 02:46 PM
He cashed one check for Rob Saez. Good move by Rob! He may have smelled something, but I suspect he just wanted the money RIGHT NOW! He knew Chuck was sitting on a wad of cash right then. What happened to that wad, nobody knows except Chuck. One thing for sure, it didn't make it to the bank!

You are right..it was a good move by Rob.

But that does not really answer the question...Why would he have cashed the check if his intentions were to bilk the players?

Jay..I am not trying to downplay your position or the players position or the situation in general.

I understand your position and exactly what you are trying to protect. Regardless of the outcome I think you have done that and more. I don't blame you at all for following up on this situation.

I hope in the end this gets resolved for everyone....

Nostroke
08-11-2008, 02:50 PM
There is an acronym used when someone has financial troubles and goes from having money to having none, giving the reason for it

D rugs
A lcohol
W omen
G ambling


That's right on the money. DAWG has brought many a man down hard and pretty fast.

PETARD
08-11-2008, 04:52 PM
Unfortunately, you can't go around putting liens on people's homes.

Liens are generally available to protect the interersts of building contractors and governmental taxing authorities. And filing a lien, if the law provides that you can do so doesn't necessarily mean that the home will be sold. Liens just establish a right to receive proceeds of sale if one ever takes place.

In civil matters, you need to file a lawsuit and then get a judgment at which point you can force the sale of the loser's property in satisfaction of the judgment and it helps to have a lien that has priority in that sale.

In this matter, since there were checks written and promises broken there are both a civil and possibly criminal aspects.

Jay is a big boy and will do his own research and get competent legal advice, but if it was me, I would go the civil route since civil fraud is what is called an "intentional tort" that opens the door to punitive damages in any amount that the jury might find appropriate.

Writing bad checks and lying about restitution is the kind of behavior that piss jurors off and motivate them to hand down large awards.

Plaintiff's attorney fees can also be awarded and likely would be in a case like this.

I would only to the criminal route if I knew the bad guy had no assets and that suing would therefore be a waste of time.

Having said all the above, a civil suit could force Bobbitt into bankruptcy in which case most causes of action would be extinguished. But fraud might survive a bankruptcy filing.

Just my $0.02 as a non-lawyer.

Regards,
Jim

:) JIM, POSTAGE HAS GONE UP; FURTHER EVIDENCE JAY NEEDS THE COLLECTION GURU; WHERE IS THAT FAT ASS WHEN YOU NEED HIM/HER?

ironman
08-12-2008, 12:57 AM
If it was sanctioned by the UPA they should pay.

It didn't cost them anything. Whay would they be concerned?

You are though, heard loudly and clearly.

av84fun
08-12-2008, 01:42 AM
Hu, I know for a FACT that it is very difficult to get the DA/SA to actually prosecute (as opposed to sending a stern letter which is typically the first step in such cases). They know they have to prove INTENT...to a JURY...most of whom live from paycheck to paycheck too.

I was the founder of a company that owned 24 Jiffy Lube centers in Chicago and we got about 10 billion bad checks. One was written on an account that was CLOSED for a year...but the SA said the lady will cry on the stand, act stupid and swear that she just had made a mistake.

I responded that we could prove that she had NO OTHER checking account at the time....NONE...and the SA said that they would not prosecute the case anyway...."Because we don't like to lose." That is an EXACT quote.

Mr. Bobbitt will just testify that his life was in a shambles, he hadn't balanced his check book in months, was depressed and suicidal...thought he held a winning lottery ticket and was pretty sure that his great grandmother's neice was going do die soon and leave him a fortune.

Here's the world according to Garp. Write hot checks to a governmental agency and go to jail. Write them to private citizens and all of a sudden the prosecuters think it's a civil matter.

Besides, if he truly is broke, then putting him in jail isn't going to buy any pork chops for anyone.

Better, by far, IMHO, to sue for actual and punitive damages...get a judgment that will likely include MORE than actual damages because punitive damages are available if fraud is proven and will last for X number of years depending on state law.

Then hope he recovers financially at some point so there would be something to chew on.

Even if he files bankruptcy, it is likely that the award for fraud would NOT be discharged.

And the heat will go WAY down with the SAs when they find out that 70% restitution has already been made. They will say, "Hell, that's better than what we would have gotten you in a plea bargain!"

Besides, for a first offender with a sob story, he would likely only get a few months in the slam...if not probation from the get go. So all you end up with is a convicted felon who can't get a decent job...can't get a passport...can't vote and can't own a gun. Not a big win AFAIK.

All IMHO, but this ain't my first rodeo in chasing hot check artists. In Chicago, we used to call bad checks "Readers...Checks only good for reading."

Regards,
Jim



Scott,

I heard a considerably different story from someone close to the source. The version that I heard was that Mark bought the tables at fair market value and they were leased out at the time generating income. Mark still did a very good thing to help the players but he shouldn't have gotten hurt on the deal himself while Chuck lost the income from the tables and so did come out behind in the transaction.

Several things don't make sense looking at the whole situation. Either Chuck is absolutely the dumbest crook I have ever heard of or his intentions were good.

Why write checks if he wasn't hoping to cover them kicking a civil matter up to a criminal matter?

Why sign promissory notes without having the other person sign them also?

If he intended to just take the money and run why sell tables that were producing income and let the money go directly to the players?

The whole situation doesn't add up to me if Chuck is really the con many people credit him with being!

Hu

(Scott I'm not really pursuing you, seems we are posting on the same topics this morning! :D )

ShootingArts
08-12-2008, 08:42 AM
Jim,

It varies vastly with the DA where you are at. A couple of parishes I lived in writing a bad check was right next to an ax murder and the people made restitution before receiving sentencing! No restitution meant real jail time as in over a year inside. Even with restitution they faced a heavy fine and often a short sentence. Repeat offenders were going to jail long enough to think about it. Other places it depends on the mood the DA is in, the information you have, and the record of the writer.

I have dealt with bad checks for about forty years. Oddly enough when I owned an auto salvage I got the fewest bad checks. That was where the DA was very aggressive behind bad check writers and I got two or three a year normally. A phone call usually sent the owner dashing over to correct the problem.

I had three checking accounts myself and my road account was low on funds so I made a deposit into it. Six checks bounced in one deposit, absolutely unheard of in years of doing business there. When I closed the gate that evening I stuck a .357 in my hip pocket and went collecting on my own. Everyone I found paid up!

Hu



Hu, I know for a FACT that it is very difficult to get the DA/SA to actually prosecute (as opposed to sending a stern letter which is typically the first step in such cases). They know they have to prove INTENT...to a JURY...most of whom live from paycheck to paycheck too.

I was the founder of a company that owned 24 Jiffy Lube centers in Chicago and we got about 10 billion bad checks. One was written on an account that was CLOSED for a year...but the SA said the lady will cry on the stand, act stupid and swear that she just had made a mistake.

I responded that we could prove that she had NO OTHER checking account at the time....NONE...and the SA said that they would not prosecute the case anyway...."Because we don't like to lose." That is an EXACT quote.

Mr. Bobbitt will just testify that his life was in a shambles, he hadn't balanced his check book in months, was depressed and suicidal...thought he held a winning lottery ticket and was pretty sure that his great grandmother's neice was going do die soon and leave him a fortune.

Here's the world according to Garp. Write hot checks to a governmental agency and go to jail. Write them to private citizens and all of a sudden the prosecuters think it's a civil matter.

Besides, if he truly is broke, then putting him in jail isn't going to buy any pork chops for anyone.

Better, by far, IMHO, to sue for actual and punitive damages...get a judgment that will likely include MORE than actual damages because punitive damages are available if fraud is proven and will last for X number of years depending on state law.

Then hope he recovers financially at some point so there would be something to chew on.

Even if he files bankruptcy, it is likely that the award for fraud would NOT be discharged.

And the heat will go WAY down with the SAs when they find out that 70% restitution has already been made. They will say, "Hell, that's better than what we would have gotten you in a plea bargain!"

Besides, for a first offender with a sob story, he would likely only get a few months in the slam...if not probation from the get go. So all you end up with is a convicted felon who can't get a decent job...can't get a passport...can't vote and can't own a gun. Not a big win AFAIK.

All IMHO, but this ain't my first rodeo in chasing hot check artists. In Chicago, we used to call bad checks "Readers...Checks only good for reading."

Regards,
Jim

BRKNRUN
08-12-2008, 09:00 AM
Hu, I know for a FACT that it is very difficult to get the DA/SA to actually prosecute (as opposed to sending a stern letter which is typically the first step in such cases). They know they have to prove INTENT...to a JURY...most of whom live from paycheck to paycheck too.

I was the founder of a company that owned 24 Jiffy Lube centers in Chicago and we got about 10 billion bad checks. One was written on an account that was CLOSED for a year...but the SA said the lady will cry on the stand, act stupid and swear that she just had made a mistake.

I responded that we could prove that she had NO OTHER checking account at the time....NONE...and the SA said that they would not prosecute the case anyway...."Because we don't like to lose." That is an EXACT quote.

Mr. Bobbitt will just testify that his life was in a shambles, he hadn't balanced his check book in months, was depressed and suicidal...thought he held a winning lottery ticket and was pretty sure that his great grandmother's neice was going do die soon and leave him a fortune.

Here's the world according to Garp. Write hot checks to a governmental agency and go to jail. Write them to private citizens and all of a sudden the prosecuters think it's a civil matter.

Besides, if he truly is broke, then putting him in jail isn't going to buy any pork chops for anyone.

Better, by far, IMHO, to sue for actual and punitive damages...get a judgment that will likely include MORE than actual damages because punitive damages are available if fraud is proven and will last for X number of years depending on state law.

Then hope he recovers financially at some point so there would be something to chew on.

Even if he files bankruptcy, it is likely that the award for fraud would NOT be discharged.

And the heat will go WAY down with the SAs when they find out that 70% restitution has already been made. They will say, "Hell, that's better than what we would have gotten you in a plea bargain!"

Besides, for a first offender with a sob story, he would likely only get a few months in the slam...if not probation from the get go. So all you end up with is a convicted felon who can't get a decent job...can't get a passport...can't vote and can't own a gun. Not a big win AFAIK.

All IMHO, but this ain't my first rodeo in chasing hot check artists. In Chicago, we used to call bad checks "Readers...Checks only good for reading."

Regards,
Jim


Wow!!!!....I think I might have left the "Jiffy Lube" part out and just said I owned 24 centers.

I have been to a Jiffy Lube once.......just once.......they tried and failed....then I did some quick online research and found that I was not the only one to have such an experience...;)

Ken_4fun
08-12-2008, 10:03 AM
Hu, I know for a FACT that it is very difficult to get the DA/SA to actually prosecute (as opposed to sending a stern letter which is typically the first step in such cases). They know they have to prove INTENT...to a JURY...most of whom live from paycheck to paycheck too.

I was the founder of a company that owned 24 Jiffy Lube centers in Chicago and we got about 10 billion bad checks. One was written on an account that was CLOSED for a year...but the SA said the lady will cry on the stand, act stupid and swear that she just had made a mistake.

I responded that we could prove that she had NO OTHER checking account at the time....NONE...and the SA said that they would not prosecute the case anyway...."Because we don't like to lose." That is an EXACT quote.

Mr. Bobbitt will just testify that his life was in a shambles, he hadn't balanced his check book in months, was depressed and suicidal...thought he held a winning lottery ticket and was pretty sure that his great grandmother's neice was going do die soon and leave him a fortune.

Here's the world according to Garp. Write hot checks to a governmental agency and go to jail. Write them to private citizens and all of a sudden the prosecuters think it's a civil matter.

Besides, if he truly is broke, then putting him in jail isn't going to buy any pork chops for anyone.

Better, by far, IMHO, to sue for actual and punitive damages...get a judgment that will likely include MORE than actual damages because punitive damages are available if fraud is proven and will last for X number of years depending on state law.

Then hope he recovers financially at some point so there would be something to chew on.

Even if he files bankruptcy, it is likely that the award for fraud would NOT be discharged.

And the heat will go WAY down with the SAs when they find out that 70% restitution has already been made. They will say, "Hell, that's better than what we would have gotten you in a plea bargain!"

Besides, for a first offender with a sob story, he would likely only get a few months in the slam...if not probation from the get go. So all you end up with is a convicted felon who can't get a decent job...can't get a passport...can't vote and can't own a gun. Not a big win AFAIK.

All IMHO, but this ain't my first rodeo in chasing hot check artists. In Chicago, we used to call bad checks "Readers...Checks only good for reading."

Regards,
Jim


Jim -

I am one of the most boring guys you will ever meet. I pay my bills and owe nobody a dime.

I didnt have a clue that this was so widespread and common.

Sickening isnt it?

Ken

Nostroke
08-13-2008, 07:59 AM
Wow!!!!....I think I might have left the "Jiffy Lube" part out and just said I owned 24 centers.

I have been to a Jiffy Lube once.......just once.......they tried and failed....then I did some quick online research and found that I was not the only one to have such an experience...;)

I would love to be able to say i own 3 Jiffy Lube Centers. They are the best thing since bread (unsliced). UP until the 80's or so, you had to make an appointment with some cigarette smoking, gravel voiced bum in a Tshirt so that you could leave your car off 10 days later for the whole day at this filthy dump and maybe he would get to it. If he did, you were lucky and a $50 invoice awaited you (equivalent of $130 today minimum) and of course the warning that you need a new front end or something.

God bless JL, Express Lube, Walmart and China!!

PETARD
08-15-2008, 08:38 AM
Thanks for this Smokey. I hear you loud and clear. I'm just not willing to let this guy off the hook. I made a promise to the players to collect (particularly Johnny), and I intend to do just that. My sense is that waiting a year at this time will give this guy a good opportunity to totally disappear. Right now I do have a correct home address for him. I doubt he will be there in a few more months.

Bottom line, he made money off the event and stiffed the top finishers. I'll chase this guy as long as it takes to get them all paid! I want to know one good reason why he shouldn't have to pay. He HAD the money! That much I know. He just decided to pocket it instead of pay everyone. I get pissed every time I think about it. Bobbitt is not a good guy who got in over his head. He is a con man who took advantage of many of the best pool players in America. I view him in much the same way I do TruDough. Leeches on the pool community.

JAY, HEARD A RUMOR THAT THE COLLECTION GURU IS WRITING A STORY ABOUT THE CRAP IN TRU$$$$$$$$$$$$ BOOK ON DEBT; AWARE OF STORY?

jay helfert
08-15-2008, 10:01 AM
JAY, HEARD A RUMOR THAT THE COLLECTION GURU IS WRITING A STORY ABOUT THE CRAP IN TRU$$$$$$$$$$$$ BOOK ON DEBT; AWARE OF STORY?

No I'm not.