PDA

View Full Version : Wpba Payouts


onepocketchump
03-05-2005, 07:22 PM
I guess I will never understand the logic of having a lower round match be worth more than a higher round one.

Specifically, I was looking at the prize structure and it goes like this:

1st $10,000
2cnd $7000
3rd $5500
4th $4500
5/6th $3000
7/8th $2600
9/12th $2000
13/16th $1700
17/24th $1400
25/32cnd $1000
33/48th $550

So, the difference between fourth and fifth is the same as the difference between 2cnd and 3rd, $1500 while the difference between 5th and 7th is only $400 but you get $200 more than that, $600 for going from 9th to 7th.

Shouldn't each round be substantially more? To me each race is essentially worth the difference in the placement? If I am in the spot where I have 7/8th locked up then what I am playing for is the difference between 5/6th and 7/8th. Why should the set that takes me from 9th to 7th be worth less than the set which takes me from 7th to 5th? Why should the set that takes me from 5th to 4th be worth the same as the one which takes me from 4th to 5th?

I don't know what the answer is but to me the reward for advancing should always be more than earlier rounds.

I can't stand tournaments where the difference between first and second is paltry. To me it is anticlimatic. I watched two hours of the WPT today and 1st was a million and second was $500,000. That's drama, that's exciting. Not 1st being $800,000 and 2cnd being $700,000. At that point it's academic. Who cares who wins?

I hate this in little local tournaments as well. I am a big believer in each round, especially the end being worth twice as much as the previous one.

John

Tbeaux
03-05-2005, 07:34 PM
The WPBA uses several payouts throughout the season depending on the event. Highest I've seen is $25,000 for first. As to the lower rounds they try to spread the money out so no player (ideally) is forced to give up the tour for lack of funds (several of the ladies have NO sponsorship), it also helps to attract some new talent to the tour since the WPBA pays out more to women players than any other tour. As to why the increments are the way they are I dunno. I'm sure the ladies would gladly take your money if you're offering it to increase the stakes. :D

Terry

Jack Flanagan
03-05-2005, 08:18 PM
5th/6th,,,7th/8th,,,you have to take into account for a tie,,,the amount paid for 5th/6th is actually the average of what 5th and 6th would have paid if they had been won outright,,,an outright win probably would never happen unless there's a tourney with small numbers, say 11 people,,,that's my take on it & how I do my tourneys,,,,,jflan

JAM
03-06-2005, 05:16 AM
I, too, have noticed a variety of tournament payout breakdowns.

The Derby City Classic pays out a huge amount of the fields. I can't remember the percentage, but it is big, which is why this event is enjoyed by players of all caliber from around the world.

On the regional tournament trail scene, the Planet Pool 9-Ball Tour pays out 3/8ths of the field and the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour pays out 25 percent of the field.

I will say that I am pleased to see the BCA Open pay out the EXACT same amount to the women's event as the men's, $15,000 for first place, which last year was won by Tony Robles and Karen Corr! In days gone by, the ladies' payouts used to pale by comparison to the men. If the men don't watch it, the ladies' payout will EXCEED the men's, because of the equitable and fair practices of the WPBA!

JAM

jjinfla
03-06-2005, 07:01 AM
Jam, It's the WPBA which is all women. Where does logic and common sense fit in? I couldn't resist.

In small double elimination tournaments if you give all the money to the top three spots then the great players come in and steal the money. Soon the other players realize that they have no chance and stop entering and the top players end up playing with themselves. Er, I mean by themselves.

But this holds true for the pros too. If Kieth knows that the best chance he has is to finish 4th all the time and they are only paying three spots then how many times is he going to throw away his money?

When he enters the Joss there are pretty good adds that he is not going to lose two matches so it is almost a guaranteed paycheck.

As for the WPBA it is a closed sorority (so to speak) which is governed by its members. As long as the members are happy that is all that counts. If they are not happy then it is up to them to change things. And the WPBA has a big carrot that they wave in front of the women. TV. So finishing 4th gets you not only the money but gets you on TV. If you are sponsored, how much extra money will that mean for you?

But each spot in the WPBA gets you more money than the place before. Are you saying that you don't want the lower places to get as much as they are getting? And give it to the better players, the higher finishers? If they did that then you would be taking away the incentive for a lot of the women. Many of them know they have little or no chance of finishing in the top eight, or even the top 12, but if they can win a few matches they at least bring home a little money with the hope of next time finishing better and making more money.

Jake

JAM
03-06-2005, 07:27 AM
Jam, It's the WPBA which is all women. Where does logic and common sense fit in? I couldn't resist.

Which is why the WPBA seems to be the ONLY legitimate tour in the States (IMO). Women make very good administrators, and this tour is fair and equitable to ALL of its members. :)

In small double-elimination tournaments, if you give all the money to the top three spots, then the great players come in and steal the money. Soon the other players realize that they have no chance and stop entering, and the top players end up playing with themselves. Er, I mean by themselves.

The "small" double-elimination tournaments give a player the best bang for their buck (IMO). I still cannot understand why some tournaments are stretched out for a week in many instances, which the whole shebang could have transpired in 2 days. It is a financial hardship on the pool player.

But this holds true for the pros, too. If Keith knows that the best chance he has is to finish 4th all the time and they are only paying three spots, then how many times is he going to throw away his money?

Keith is the exception to the rule. He is a white buffalo trying to survive in the wilderness of today's tournament-inclined pool world. When he was on top of his game, before I met him, he says he was the proverbial "bride's maid" in most tournaments, coming in second place to the likes of Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins, Nick Varner, Buddy Hall, and Earl Strickland. Having seen quite a few videos of tournaments from yesteryear, I'd have to agree with him on his observation.

As a tournament player, he's got a shot at finishing high, but when the expenses exceed $3,000 per month to keep up with what tournaments there are available to players like him, his profit and loss statement is definitely, shall I say, one-sided. :rolleyes:

When he enters the Joss, there are pretty good adds that he is not going to lose two matches, so it is almost a guaranteed paycheck.

I really like the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour because it is economically attractive, but as far as being guaranteed for him to CASH, it's kind of tough competing against New York Champion Mike Zuglan, Frankie Hernandez, Ryan "Genie Man" McCreesh, Philippino Champion Santos, UPA Touring Pro Mike Davis, World Champion Allen Hopkins, Hall of Famer Jim Rempe, Philippino Invasion Leader Jose Parica, and, yes, the WPBA Super Star Karen Corr, just to name a few that come to mind. ;)

As for the WPBA, it is a closed sorority (so to speak) which is governed by its members. As long as the members are happy, that is all that counts. If they are not happy, then it is up to them to change things. And the WPBA has a big carrot that they wave in front of the women: TV. So finishing 4th gets you not only the money, but gets you on TV. If you are sponsored, how much extra money will that mean for you?

The sponsorship opportunities available to pool players, men and women alike, are very limited because most prospective sponsors are pool-related entities.

But each spot in the WPBA gets you more money than the place before. Are you saying that you don't want the lower places to get as much as they are getting? And give it to the better players, the higher finishers? If they did that, then you would be taking away the incentive for a lot of the women. Many of them know they have little or no chance of finishing in the top eight, or even the top 12, but if they can win a few matches they at least bring home a little money with the hope of next time finishing better and making more money.

I am not saying I would desire to see the higher finishers make more money, but I am saying that I do enjoy seeing the WPBA continue to provide a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. The so-called men's tour? Those who attended the BCA last year will be highest-ranked, once again, this year. Do I think that is fair? Absolutely not. :mad:

The WPBA can give the UPA the 3 and out when it comes to being a "governing body of professional pool" (IMO).

JAM

sjm
03-06-2005, 09:13 AM
The WPBA can give the UPA the 3 and out when it comes to being a "governing body of professional pool" (IMO).

And the breaks!

sjm
03-06-2005, 09:23 AM
Shouldn't each round be substantially more? To me each race is essentially worth the difference in the placement? If I am in the spot where I have 7/8th locked up then what I am playing for is the difference between 5/6th and 7/8th. Why should the set that takes me from 9th to 7th be worth less than the set which takes me from 7th to 5th? Why should the set that takes me from 5th to 4th be worth the same as the one which takes me from 4th to 5th?


OPC, you've done a good job of spelling out the imperfections in the prize structure, but I still think it's pretty good.

As for the final, I can't say that te BCA Open final, 15,000 to winner and 7,500 to loser, seems any more excitng to me because of the prize money differential. Yes, the differential has to be high enough to motivate the players, but the truth is, that 3,000 is alot to play in the context of what pro pool players earn.

The only exceptions for me are the two "gimmicky" winner-take-all Challenge of Champions events at Mohegan Sun in Connecticutt, where the final has either a 25,000 (women's event) or 50,000 (men's event) differential. It makes for great theater.

landshark77
03-06-2005, 11:12 AM
As for the WPBA it is a closed sorority (so to speak) which is governed by its members. As long as the members are happy that is all that counts. If they are not happy then it is up to them to change things. And the WPBA has a big carrot that they wave in front of the women. TV. So finishing 4th gets you not only the money but gets you on TV. If you are sponsored, how much extra money will that mean for you?



The sponsorship opportunities available to pool players, men and women alike, are very limited because most prospective sponsors are pool-related entities.



I think what Jake was inferring was that getting the 4th place seat means not only do you get the payout and the TV appearance, but IF you are a sponsored player there may be some type of bonus. After all a sponsored player with TV time equals free national advertisement for the sponsor, thus the whole point of sponsorship. A player who receives a large amount of TV time will most likely have more sponsorship opportunities than the player who never makes the cut.

jjinfla
03-06-2005, 12:57 PM
I think what Jake was inferring was that getting the 4th place seat means not only do you get the payout and the TV appearance, but IF you are a sponsored player there may be some type of bonus. After all a sponsored player with TV time equals free national advertisement for the sponsor, thus the whole point of sponsorship. A player who receives a large amount of TV time will most likely have more sponsorship opportunities than the player who never makes the cut.

Well Landshark it appears that there is some intelligence under that pretty blonde hair of yours.

When Rodney Morris appeared on TV in the skins game he was the only player who really showed off his sponsor. He wore a shirt from Capone's Billiards and the name was prominently displayed. Just about everytime Rodney shot we got to see the name Capone's. Unfortunately some people mistakenly thought it was Capone's Cues. So Capone's Cues got a lot of free advertisement. But that is the real reason a sponsor will sponsor a player - to get the name of their product in front of the public. The player is just a walking billboard for the company.

Maybe Capone's Cues will contact Rodney and co-sponsor him.

There are quite a few women out there who understand this sponsor/player relationship and actively seek out sponsors. But to really be successful they have to be before the public and the best place to do that is on TV and to be on TV they have to win. And that causes a lot of pressure. Especially since only 4 out of 64 get to the TV round.

Sarah Ellerby is a good self promoter and has sponsors who see potential in her. Brunswick is one of her sponsors. All her sponsors hope she can make it to the TV rounds.

Wendy Jans came here with Simonis as a sponsor. I am sure they believe she will do well in the USA. They are betting on her. Once she settles down she will be tough to beat.

Jake

JAM
03-06-2005, 01:09 PM
...When Rodney Morris appeared on TV in the skins game he was the only player who really showed off his sponsor. He wore a shirt from Capone's Billiards and the name was prominently displayed. Just about everytime Rodney shot we got to see the name Capone's. Unfortunately some people mistakenly thought it was Capone's Cues. So Capone's Cues got a lot of free advertisement.

Actually, Rodney Morris was one of FIVE players (out of 16) who sponsored himself in the Skins Billiard Championship. Rodney is well-liked in the pool community, and he is the "house pro" at Capone's in Springhill, Florida. Capone's kind of got free advertising by having Rodney as their house pro. ;)

But that is the real reason a sponsor will sponsor a player - to get the name of their product in front of the public. The player is just a walking billboard for the company.

I agree. :)

Maybe Capone's Cues will contact Rodney and co-sponsor him.

I am not sure which players are sponsored by Capone's Cues, but I do know that Capone's Cues sponsors regional tours by providing a custom-made cue stick as a prize or raffle item, which is very much appreciated by the tour organizers and players alike. They're actually quite beautiful cue sticks. They also have "given" pro players custom-made cues, which is a GREAT form of sponsorship to the player looking for that good "hit."

Ryan "Genie Man" McCreesh, who recently came in second at Joss' Turning Stone Casino Classic IV, is now shooting with a Capone's cue with a Predator shaft. AND he likes it a lot!

There are quite a few women out there who understand this sponsor/player relationship and actively seek out sponsors. But to really be successful they have to be before the public and the best place to do that is on TV and to be on TV they have to win. And that causes a lot of pressure. Especially since only 4 out of 64 get to the TV round.

Jake, sponsors within the pool community can only sponsor so many players. What would be ideal is if some non-pool-related sponsors came forth, due to advertisement on ESPN. Then, and only then, will the sport begin to rise in status, economically speaking.

Currently, everybody is chewing on the same pool bone, with not much meat on it. I cannot think of one pool player who is wealthy from the fruits of their labor, past or present, sponsored or unsponsored, but I can think of pool industry members who have enjoyed financial wealth from the sport, much more so than the "pro player." Pool players haven't received a cost-of-living raise, if you will, in the form of tournament payouts in the past 30 years, as have other sports industries.

There were actually pool tournaments which paid out $25,000 as a first-place prize, along with the rest of the payouts, in the early '80s. Now in the year 2005, there are not too many first-place purses as high as $25,000, and if there were, $25,000 in 2005 dollars doesn't go as far as 25 dimes in 1983, as an example.



JAM

landshark77
03-06-2005, 02:34 PM
Actually, Rodney Morris was one of FIVE players (out of 16) who sponsored himself in the Skins Billiard Championship. Rodney is well-liked in the pool community, and he is the "house pro" at Capone's in Springhill, Florida. Capone's kind of got free advertising by having Rodney as their house pro. ;)

I dunno if I am misinterpreting what you are saying, but sponsors come in all forms and for different reasons. A player may pay their own tourney fees and still be a sponsored player...or player with a sponsor. For example, those glasses Strickland wears, those guys are one of his sponsors....I dunno his specific deal but lets say they don't pay his entry fees...does that mean he doesn't wear them that tourney?? No, he still wears them because they give him something. Maybe he gets a check from them every time he wears them on TV? Like I said, I dunno his specific deal, nor do I really care.

Sponsorship is EXACTLY like Jake says. (Yeah, our agreement amazes me too.) When he says a player is just a walking billboard for the sponsor. Every time a sponsor’s logo is seen in any media or is heard in the same, which equals FREE advertisement for that sponsor. Look at NASCAR and Motocross. After a win, those guys are plastered with logos and when they talk count the times you hear a sponsor’s name. Count the seconds each logo is seen and then figure out the cost of how much a commercial that long will be.

Look at Alison Fisher. Show me one media photograph or television match where the reader/viewer can not openly see her sponsors logos. Now imagine how much money the APA and Cuetec are saving by investing in Allison. The fact that she is the number one player doesn't hurt either.

I am not sure which players are sponsored by Capone's Cues, but I do know that Capone's Cues sponsors regional tours by providing a custom-made cue stick as a prize or raffle item, which is very much appreciated by the tour organizers and players alike. They're actually quite beautiful cue sticks. They also have "given" pro players custom-made cues, which is a GREAT form of sponsorship to the player looking for that good "hit."

But Capone is "giving" those guys a cue for a reason. It is not out of the goodness of his heart. He sees potential in whomever he gives his cues to and believes that they can help him advertise his cues. When they are interviewed and asked what kind of cue do you use....cha-ching! FREE advertisement. It is sorta like what you did; JAM, when Keith got his new cues. You started a thread about his cues...that was free advertisement and the fact that an established player was using them gave the cues automatic merit.

I guess what I am trying to get across is that players need to understand the full responsibility of being sponsored....some don't realize it, IMO. This will further help pool and the players in general obtain non-pool related sponsors. Just from what I see on TV...it's really not worth it to a large cooperate sponsor. What are they gonna get out of it except a small patch/sticker on a players shoulder/chest/back??? After someone wins a tourney on TV, they are interacting with the audience right off the bat. They oughta have their face in the camera saying thank you to their sponsors (a la, NASCAR). This goes for every media opportunity presented to a player. Even if a player "sells out" a little sponsor every opportunity they get...the bigger ones will see that they too can get that exposure from that player. Look at Jeanette, the sponsors like her....she sells their crap...

jjinfla
03-06-2005, 03:03 PM
I believe that Rocky McElroy pays tournament fees for Rodney for the Florida Pro Tour. In return Rodney is the House Pro at Capone Billiards in Spring Hill, Fl., and most likely gets to play free whenever he wants. I think Rocky and Rodney are working on a golf/pool package where people can sign up and receive lessons from Rodney and then play a round of golf with him.

Rob Saez is now also sponsored by Rocky.

And Earl Strickland is supposedly moving into the area too. I wonder what someone would pay to pay around of golf with that trio.

But it was great business sense on Rodney's part to wear the Capone Billiards shirt during the skins game even if Rocky didn't pay any of the entry fee. it pays to be loyal to your sponsor. And besides, it's a nice shirt.

Jake

JAM
03-06-2005, 04:46 PM
I dunno if I am misinterpreting what you are saying, but sponsors come in all forms and for different reasons. A player may pay their own tourney fees and still be a sponsored player...or player with a sponsor.

We may be getting into semantics here. I was pointing out to Jake that Rodney did sponsor himself at the Skins tourney when Jake mentioned Rodney was sponsored at that event. It is true that a player can be sponsored, but not have the sponsor pay for a player's participation in an event.

Sponsorship is EXACTLY like Jake says. (Yeah, our agreement amazes me too.) When he says a player is just a walking billboard for the sponsor...Look at Alison Fisher. Show me one media photograph or television match where the reader/viewer can not openly see her sponsors logos. Now imagine how much money the APA and Cuetec are saving by investing in Allison. The fact that she is the number one player doesn't hurt either...

Sponsorship comes in many forms. Cuetec is one of the limited amount of pool-related sponsors on the block. Since the existing lot of so-called "professional players" is diminishing, it will have a spiral effect. As long as expenses far exceed the tournament payouts, it ain't going to get any better (IMO).

But Capone is "giving" those guys a cue for a reason. It is not out of the goodness of his heart. He sees potential in whomever he gives his cues to and believes that they can help him advertise his cues.

This may be true. Some cue-makers, though, give cues out of the goodness of their hearts to players who end up selling them at a later time. Cue-makers these days are reluctant to sponsor players because of that reason.

...FREE advertisement. It is sorta like what you did; JAM, when Keith got his new cues. You started a thread about his cues...that was free advertisement and the fact that an established player was using them gave the cues automatic merit.

The thread I initiated about Keith's WilleeCue was a tribute more than an advertisement. In fact, the cue-maker specifically requested to not mention his name at the time it was given to Keith for personal reasons. He did not give the cue to him, though, for any business reason. In this instance, it actually was out of the GOODNESS of his heart.

...I guess what I am trying to get across is that players need to understand the full responsibility of being sponsored....some don't realize it, IMO....

I think most sponsored players, those who are what I'd consider to be "sponsored," do understand the responsibility and take it very seriously. Again, sponsorship can come in many forms, whether it's a cue from a cue-maker or an actual monthly paycheck.

Rather than cite examples, I'd venture to guess the ones who do receive financial assistance on a monthly basis are doing the right thing. Most people would never bite the hand that feeds them, but the majority of pool people, to include players, print media, and organizations, continue to gnaw and chew on the same pool bone, one with very little meat on it.

To stay on topic, I can see a day up ahead when the WPBA payouts will exceed the men's.

JAM

TheBook
03-06-2005, 05:01 PM
Keith is the exception to the rule. He is a white buffalo trying to survive in the wilderness of today's tournament-inclined pool world. When he was on top of his game, before I met him, he says he was the proverbial "bride's maid" in most tournaments, coming in second place to the likes of Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins, Nick Varner, Buddy Hall, and Earl Strickland. Having seen quite a few videos of tournaments from yesteryear, I'd have to agree with him on his observation.

Jam

You make it sound as if you brought his game down. LOL

Hopefully you are the best thing that has entered Keith's life. Keith is one of the greatest promotors of the game and deserves the best.