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JMS
08-09-2008, 08:56 PM
Does anybody know when Predator's patent expires? I have a friend in the military over in Japan he told me he's seen people playing with Predator bootleg shafts that play identical to his. If that's the case do you think you'll keep buying Predator's shaft when you can just buy a bootleg for about $100.00. Again this is just what my friend told me but I believe him.

av84fun
08-09-2008, 09:07 PM
Does anybody know when Predator's patent expires? I have a friend in the military over in Japan he told me he's seen people playing with Predator bootleg shafts that play identical to his. If that's the case do you think you'll keep buying Predator's shaft when you can just buy a bootleg for about $100.00. Again this is just what my friend told me but I believe him.


Predator likely has a series of patents but patents have never stopped people...especailly in foreign countries...from knocking products off.

Some knock offs of various products...Rolex watches for example, are notoriously inferior but some are just as good or better than the original.

Buyers of knock off Pred cues are taking a BIG chance with quality/durability and are supporting thieves.

Regards,
Jim

LoGiC
08-09-2008, 11:20 PM
Does anyone still buy the name brand golf clubs these days? I leave town to come back to a knock off shop right around the corner of my house. I checked it out and can get ANY full set I wanted for ~$175 after taxes. Not bad considering the Nike SUMO 2s run $400 for just the damn driver.

JB Cases
08-10-2008, 03:49 AM
First are these branded shafts? Do they have Predator's logo on them?

And secondly how do you know that the shafts are constructed the same? Has your friend dissected them?

Predator does not have a patent for a pie spliced shaft. No one does. Pie spliced shafts were made more than 100 years ago.

We are making a pie shaft that plays very very sporty. It will be available on the our new line of high end Fury cues at first and for our other lines a little later.

This shaft has received very good reviews.

It is quite likely that the company who is producing legitimate Predator shafts is also producing some that are not sold through Predator's distribution network. Perhaps this is one reason Predator has become so restrictive about who can sell it's shafts and started putting serial numbers on them and won't guarantee shafts that are not registered.

So perhaps you can buy a Predator knockoff for $100 but if it fails or has problems - as a lot of Predator shafts do - then who are you going to go to in order to get if fixed? My bet is that this is $100 wasted.

skor
08-10-2008, 04:07 AM
It is quite likely that the company who is producing legitimate Predator shafts is also producing some that are not sold through Predator's distribution network. Perhaps this is one reason Predator has become so restrictive about who can sell it's shafts and started putting serial numbers on them and won't guarantee shafts that are not registered.

ahhhh the fun of moving production to China.... first you teach them your secrets and then you complain that they rip you off....
This was sooooo predicted.... if the factory that makes Predator's shaft also sell the same shaft without the logo on the side (like Chinese factories do in clothing and other products) then you can be damn sure that you are getting the same thing for the friction of the price.

Should you buy it? hell yes!! Predator should have thought about it before moving production to China to try and save a buck.

JB Cases
08-10-2008, 05:38 AM
ahhhh the fun of moving production to China.... first you teach them your secrets and then you complain that they rip you off....
This was sooooo predicted.... if the factory that makes Predator's shaft also sell the same shaft without the logo on the side (like Chinese factories do in clothing and other products) then you can be damn sure that you are getting the same thing for the friction of the price.

Should you buy it? hell yes!! Predator should have thought about it before moving production to China to try and save a buck.

Well what you say is true for a lot of products. However the downside is that you are never sure that it is in fact the same product. Nor does it carry a guarantee.

The Predator cases that I designed for Predator are knocked off all over the place here in China. The quality is crap so I know that it's not the same company that was making the ones I designed doing the knockoffs. Who can say if the cues are crappy knockoffs or "unauthorized" originals? No one can.

And it's that uncertainty that keeps me away from them as a consumer.

Should you buy it? Well if you prefer to purchase stolen property, which is what an unauthorized original would be, then yes go right ahead and be a thief. And if it's a direct copy that does violate Predator's patented construction then you are also being a thief. If saving $50 is enough to erase the fact that you are participating in thievery then go ahead.

And yes, if an inventor discloses the "secret" to to a manufacturer that doesn't give that manufacturer the right to manufacture more units and sell them on the side. That is theft as well.

I find it reprehensible that someone would advocate theft and advise people to steal.

I say follow your conscience. On a practical level you might save some money but if the product you buy turns out to be defective then you have saved no money and actually lost some. So if it's worth that risk on a product you can't be sure of then go ahead.

JB Cases
08-10-2008, 05:43 AM
DISCLAIMER: I do not KNOW if the company who is contracted to produce Predator products is producing more units on the side. I speculated that this is a possibility.

Which is one more reason to make sure that IF you want Predator then be sure that your dealer is truly an authorized Predator outlet so that you can be reasonably confident that you are getting true Predator products.

Because one thing is patently clear: Whoever is unscruplous enough to make and sell Predator copies will say ANYTHING to bolster a claim that what they are selling is Predator quality.

skor
08-10-2008, 05:52 AM
And yes, if an inventor discloses the "secret" to to a manufacturer that doesn't give that manufacturer the right to manufacture more units and sell them on the side. That is theft as well.


True, but moving production to China is like cutting a deal with the devil.... you know that it was going to happen.

As a customer when I walk into a shop and the seller tells me this hits like a Predator and I buy it, it doesn't make a thief! it just make me an unaware customer and maybe even a fool but not a thief.

If it had the Predator logo and it was a fake then maybe you got a point there but the average Joe doesn't lurk this forum and can't tell a real Predator from a fake nor could he ID a nameless products as the stolen real deal.

KJ Cues
08-10-2008, 06:20 AM
ahhhh the fun of moving production to China.... first you teach them your secrets and then you complain that they rip you off....
This was sooooo predicted.... if the factory that makes Predator's shaft also sell the same shaft without the logo on the side (like Chinese factories do in clothing and other products) then you can be damn sure that you are getting the same thing for the friction of the price.

Should you buy it? hell yes!! Predator should have thought about it before moving production to China to try and save a buck.
Let's assume there is some truth to this topic. Knock-offs were inevitable whether Predator moved production to China or not. Everybody and their brother is making a 'me too' low deflection performance shaft.

To promote and encourage someone to purchase a stolen concept shaft is pretty low (putting it mildly). Pretty revealing to one's character as well. Are you sure you wouldn't like to re-think your position?

Knowingly purchasing knock-offs only supports the thieves and makes the buyer equally as guilty. It's interesting to know what some people's conscience will allow. You know what is right and you know what is wrong. Your choices will be with you forever.

Pinocchio
08-10-2008, 06:49 AM
Heres my theory predator can't even knock-off their own shafts since they moved to China. I've got 8 of the old ones an I can tell you from experience the new 314's play nothing like the old ones. They have had wood delamination an ferrule problems, face it poolcues made in China are inferior to cues made by American cuemakers...........................
Pinocchio

Shawn Armstrong
08-10-2008, 07:15 AM
Heres my theory predator can't even knock-off their own shafts since they moved to China. I've got 8 of the old ones an I can tell you from experience the new 314's play nothing like the old ones. They have had wood delamination an ferrule problems, face it poolcues made in China are inferior to cues made by American cuemakers...........................
Pinocchio
The old shafts were made in CANADA. There goes the "Made in the USA" theory.

Pinocchio
08-10-2008, 07:35 AM
I know some the older shafts were made in Canada by Falcon an quite well I might add. My statement was "poolcues made in China are inferior to cues made by American cuemakers............Canada has the good wood an some great cuemakers, also
Pinocchio

SUPERSTAR
08-10-2008, 09:01 AM
I know some the older shafts were made in Canada by Falcon an quite well I might add. My statement was "poolcues made in China are inferior to cues made by American cuemakers............Canada has the good wood an some great cuemakers, also
Pinocchio


LOL.

Ok, lets get something straight.

If China is contracted to make cues at a huge savings, then yeah, your going to have cues that might be inferior to a cue made by a U.S. cuemaker.

But i'm pretty sure that if China was contracted to make a high end cue that was crafted perfectly, that they could EASILY do it.

Make no mistake about it, there are plenty of CRAPPY U.S. cuemakers ALL OVER the place. Some U.S. cuemakers just flat out SUCK!


To simply make a blanket statement that says U.S. cues are better is just wrong.

Plus, now a days, you can go to china, drop down some cash for a whole line of cues, and have them build all the components you need, ship them over here, and assemble them in the U.S. and SAY "made in the U.S.A."

As for FALCON,

Hmmmmmm.
i'll have to ask Eddie Sheahan and find out exactly how he went about that whole Falcon deal, cause i highly doubt every piece was made in the U.S.A.
I'm almost positive that everything might have done in the manner i just specified.

I'll have to make sure.

Pinocchio
08-10-2008, 09:18 AM
To my knowledge there are no I mean none (CHINESE CUES WITH COLLECTIBILITY) you buy what you want i buy American. I think Pred built their own stuff a for awhile then Falcon. I think at the end Samsura was building for Pred then it went overseas an downhill.............
Pinocchio
Buy from American cue an case makers if you have any sense it only makes sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bigshooter
08-10-2008, 09:23 AM
Some Chinese factories run a 'ghost shift' in other words they may go in when the factory supposed to be closed and make several thousand shafts for the black market, these knock offs (if they exist) may be the exact same shaft and considering they likely cost $5.00 to produce a sales price of $100.00 still makes a handsome profit.

Even if they are being copied Predator can withstand the hit considering they sell Chinese cues that cost $20.00-$40.00 to manufacture and retail them for $400.00 to $1800.00

p1noy
08-10-2008, 09:25 AM
Did anybody see the opening ceremonies in Beijing for the olympics? That sh*t was "Made in China" and it was the nuts! I guess you get my point.:thumbup:

SUPERSTAR
08-10-2008, 09:51 AM
But then you have to ask yourself.

If China DID make the best, or one of the best cues in the world.

How many people who have that "USA!!! USA!!!" mentality would actually shell out money to buy one?

I doubt any would.

skor
08-10-2008, 10:28 AM
Falcon made the butts for Predator. The shafts were made in Florida and sent to Canada (Falcon) to fit the butts.
The P2 were completely made in Florida.

There were LTD and SE models that the butts where made buy other makers like Samsara, Joss, Josswest, Mezz, Longoni and Pechauer.

You can't compare the shafts that were made in Florida to the ones that are made in China because they made changes in the shafts construction and materials used. the 2nd generation shafts are made in China and the first generation shafts were made in Florida.

Personally I like the second generation shafts better, they play and feel better and the ferrule is more durable and scratch resistant.
Yes they had some issues with the first batch but they did a recall and fixed them all or replaced those that needed replacement.

The only two reasons why Predator shouldn't fear knockoffs are:
1. Marketing and Branding - most people that use Predator products like to be seen with Predator cues, they will wear it and use it and will show off the cat logo.... The amateur market is much bigger then the pros or hustlers markets.

2. One of the things i like about Predator as a company is that they never sit tight, they don't think "ooo we just made the best shaft i the world, lets rest and count our money" their R&D and marketing departments always working on improving the product and bring new ideas and innovations to the pool cues industry and customers.

Predator is now made in the same factory that makes Lucasi cues. It's very interesting to see that the quality of the Lucasi cues has gone up since...

JMS
08-10-2008, 11:18 AM
By what my friend told me he did not dissect them. His japanese friend told him about it. He then set up the cue ball in the middle diamond on the end rail and another ball on the other middle diamond on the end rail shot it with as much english as he can without miscueing. Said it deflects the same as his Predator and the hit feels the same. As far as supporting thieves and all that I don't look at it that way. I myself have bought 2 Predator 314 2 shafts. And to think I could've gotten them both for the price of one, doesn't make me feel bad supporting bootleggers. I'll buy a $5 DVD from a bootlegger just so I won't have to pay $20 for a new release wouldn't you????

turbo billards
08-10-2008, 12:35 PM
you could just buy a D2 dominack shaft that plays great and they are a pie shaft made in america so there is no question on the quality