PDA

View Full Version : power draw stroke


PKM
08-11-2008, 07:41 AM
What kind of stroke does it take to make this straight-in shot and draw all the way back? Can it be done with a relatively level stroke (I'm sure people can do it of course, but practically speaking) or would you likely need to be jacked up slightly more than is necessary to stroke the ball? What kind of power is necessary?

I know it's not a practical shot by any means, I was just wondering as a test of cueing. It's beyond my ability right now.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2ALFM4POpA@

Colin Colenso
08-11-2008, 08:09 AM
What kind of stroke does it take to make this straight-in shot and draw all the way back? Can it be done with a relatively level stroke (I'm sure people can do it of course, but practically speaking) or would you likely need to be jacked up slightly more than is necessary to stroke the ball? What kind of power is necessary?

I know it's not a practical shot by any means, I was just wondering as a test of cueing. It's beyond my ability right now.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2ALFM4POpA@
I think it's a very practical shot and should be a very high percentage shot for a competitive player.

I would never jack up. You don't get more draw jacking up.

Colin

Rod
08-11-2008, 08:18 AM
You do not need to be jacked up at all. Assuming a good stroke, the two major factors are how low you strike the c/b and cloth conditions. At max tip offset and relatively new cloth I'd say no more than medium power. If conditions are sticky, dirty balls, old cloth etc, then more power is needed, adjust accordingly.

Rod

plshrk22
08-11-2008, 08:21 AM
In my opinion the only draw shot that you should EVER jack up for is if you are on the rail and have to jack up. You should always keep your cue as level as possible.

PKM
08-11-2008, 08:41 AM
Some people do teach to jack up slightly for draw (Jimmy Reid for example), but I do try to keep as level as possible. However, for a long shot couldn't the rationale be to hop the CB slightly so that the spin doesn't wear off?

spoons
08-11-2008, 09:15 AM
Some people do teach to jack up slightly for draw (Jimmy Reid for example), but I do try to keep as level as possible. However, for a long shot couldn't the rationale be to hop the CB slightly so that the spin doesn't wear off?

The science guys will have to tell you whether you can lessen the friction by any appreciable amount, but most people will agree that it's a bad idea.

By jacking up, you'll sacrifice accuracy. Plus, your stroke and follow through are restricted. In the end, it's far easier to make that shot with a level cue than by jacking up.

Rod
08-11-2008, 09:22 AM
Some people do teach to jack up slightly for draw (Jimmy Reid for example), but I do try to keep as level as possible. However, for a long shot couldn't the rationale be to hop the CB slightly so that the spin doesn't wear off?

The cue ball is going to be in the air anyway even with what is called a level stroke. It really isn't level the butt of the cue is elevated to some degree. Not that it will fly all the way there but maybe the first three feet as a guess.

The shot does not need to be hit so hard that you would want to fly it all the way. It has its benefits but I would say this is not one of the shots it is needed. When the c/b bounces it takes off a lot of spin so sometimes its a trade off if you will.

Rod

Scott Lee
08-11-2008, 09:23 AM
A simple NO will suffice! :D Neither is any elbow drop necessary to execute this shot.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

However, for a long shot couldn't the rationale be to hop the CB slightly so that the spin doesn't wear off?

Patrick Johnson
08-11-2008, 09:24 AM
Some people do teach to jack up slightly for draw (Jimmy Reid for example), but I do try to keep as level as possible. However, for a long shot couldn't the rationale be to hop the CB slightly so that the spin doesn't wear off?

As others have said, hopping is a tradeoff in terms of retaining maximum spin all the way to the OB and, more importantly, it plays hell with accuracy - something you need a lot of for this shot.

Jacking up can be useful for close shots, especially where you want to maximize CB movement and minimize OB movement. But that's a rare need.

pj
chgo

Bob Jewett
08-11-2008, 10:20 AM
... I know it's not a practical shot by any means, I was just wondering as a test of cueing. It's beyond my ability right now.
...
I think that as you get better, you will find that it is a practical shot. There are times when you will have to play such shots, or shots that are similar but shorter, and you need to be ready for them. See the Progressive Practice shots starting on Page 6 of http://www.sfbilliards.com/basics.pdf

An "A" player should be able to do the level 4 draw shot (diagram 4C) all the way to position 6 half the time.

As others have mentioned, try a level stroke, but not so level you smash your knuckles.

Beware_of_Dawg
08-11-2008, 10:55 AM
that shot is not a hard as you think, I've personally found that power draws are easier for me using a level cue, shorter than my normal bridge length and a shorter more compact stroke. Draw the cue stick back slowly and accelerate through the cueball.

Siz
08-11-2008, 12:50 PM
What kind of stroke does it take to make this straight-in shot and draw all the way back? Can it be done with a relatively level stroke (I'm sure people can do it of course, but practically speaking) or would you likely need to be jacked up slightly more than is necessary to stroke the ball? What kind of power is necessary?

I know it's not a practical shot by any means, I was just wondering as a test of cueing. It's beyond my ability right now.



If you are having trouble getting this shot right, then your need to work on your stroke.

Try this: Take a draw shot that you are able to execute comfortably, and practice making it while -

(1) trying to hit the balls more and more softly, still drawing back the same distance and
(2) trying to slow down your final cue delivery more and more, still drawing back the same distance.

This is the sort of exercise that I do occasionally when I am not timing the ball well, and it usually helps.:)

Oh - and like the man says, don't jack up!

cookie man
08-11-2008, 12:54 PM
accuracy - something you need a lot of for this shot.
Not with CTE, you already have it!

PKM
08-11-2008, 01:01 PM
accuracy - something you need a lot of for this shot.
Not with CTE, you already have it!

You would aim CTE for a straight-in shot?

cookie man
08-11-2008, 01:04 PM
Without a doubt. Best way to draw CB straight back out.

JoeW
08-11-2008, 01:21 PM
In Bob Jewett's Progressive drills the OB is placed in the jaws and the CB as many diamonds away from the OB as you can. Pot the OB and draw back to the CB starting position. To "know" that you can make it as needed I think that you need to make it on three of four attempts (75% success rate)

I think a "B" player can make it from 5 diamonds with little difficulty. A "Short stop" can make it from 7 diamonds. I have not seen anyone who is able to consistently draw it back from 8 diamonds but I would bet that someone can. To draw the length of the table from corner to corner would be extremely difficult but I?ll bet some one can do that too.

Many people tell me that it is not necessary to jack up for this shot. However, all three people that I have personally observed make this shot from 7 diamonds are jacked up on the shot. That is to say the back of the cue stick is higher than the front of the cue stick anywhere from four to six inches.

There is what people say and then there is what they do.

When I told one player that he was jacked up he said that it was the only way he could do it with what he called a "pure" stroke. He had taught himself how to make the shot.

I do not know any professional players so I have not seen how they make this very difficult shot.

So from how many diamonds away can you make this shot and do you jack up? It would be interesting to hear what people actually do, not what they think one should do.

I have found that if I jack up, "a little" I can, on occassion, get it to return to the 6th diamond.

spoons
08-11-2008, 01:57 PM
JoeW,

I'm not completely sure I know which shot you're talking about, and I certainly believe that you saw those shooters make the shot with their cue elevated. I wonder if there are other factors involved though...

Seven diamonds away from the jaws straight down the side rail would put the cue ball one diamond from the end rail. In order to hit the bottommost portion of the cue ball from there, it seems like one of the shots where the table forces the shooter to jack their cue up a little bit. Could this be what happened to the shooters you observed?

Also, do you remember whether the shooters used a hand or rail bridge? For a lot of people, a rail bridge would allow the shooter to keep the cue closer to level, but a full diamond is a pretty long bridge length for a shot where you need to be so precise on where the cue strikes the cue ball. I know some shooters who would rather have their hand on the table as often as possible- particularly on shots where they're cueing off center and with a lot of force. Is it possible that the shooters were using a hand bridge that caused them to elevate the butt of their cue in order to strike the desired spot?

Just my curiosity speaking....

iowa_player
08-11-2008, 02:18 PM
This guy is awesome :eek:

Monster pool draw shots by Chris Capp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqCPqYJ30zo&feature=related


Here is a video that may help also.

Dr. Cue - Lesson 9 - Cue Ball Control...Drawing the Cue Ball!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RNir7g5_oQ&feature=related

av84fun
08-11-2008, 02:20 PM
You would aim CTE for a straight-in shot?

Yes...but first you have to understand what the CTE system is...and there is massive misinformation on that topic on the forum.

Back to the point, the shot you outlined is a standard "in stroke" drill for me.

It requires a firm but not massive stroke pace to draw back to the head rail and generally, the more power the shooter uses, the more likely stroke errors will raise their ugly heads.

I alternate between stop shots, medium draw and power draw strokes.

On the stop shot, I try for DEAD STOP...no reverse and no SPIN. The no spin part is NOT easy. I get zero forward/backward movement..oh..9 of 10 tries but am happy to get zero spin on 4 tries.

On the draw strokes I am also looking for straight reverse spin. Pulling it back with NO side spin is a thing of beauty and confirms that you have struck the CB right on the vertical centerline.

Bob Jewett's progressive drills are THE NUTS.

I don't recall if he suggests it but IMHO it is best to shoot the shorter draw distances over and over until you OWN them before going to the next distance...rather than shoot just a couple of the shortest and a couple of the next length etc.

Once you own them all, then alternate between them.

Regards,
Jim

JoeW
08-11-2008, 04:25 PM
The fellow in Iowa Player?s video is jacked up if you look closely. BTW he is only 5 diamonds from the CB. The more distance between CB and OB the more difficult it is to maintain draw.

Tom Rossman?s cues stick is not ?level? in the short draw shot he is demonstrating.

From 6 diamonds to the CB one can keep the cue stick somewhat level but I have not seen anyone do it.

From 7 diamonds it is necessary to jack the cue stick because there is not sufficient room between the rail and the CB to keep it level.

From 8 diamonds the shot is an above center draw as there is no room to hit center on the CB

A length of table corner to corner shot also must be jacked up. However it is possible to set up a 6.5 diamond corner to corner shot that would not require the player to jack up the cue stick any more than usual.

It seems to me that unless one can get the whole cue stick inside the rail nearly all draw shots are jacked up a little. I conclude that when we are told to keep the cue stick level the direction is to keep the cue stick as level as is reasonably possible and it is very seldom that one can keep it level.

When the stick is intentionally jacked up there is more draw effect. This simply makes sense because one is coming in at an angle that is conducive to placing more back spin on the OB. That is when an anglular approach is used it is possible that the CB is slightly trapped against the cloth allowing more back spin to be imparted.

While I have not done it, I would think that in a situation where the cue stick could be level one could determine if there is more draw with and without jacking up the cue stick. My bet would be that jacking up produces more back spin though hitting exact center would be more crucial.


BTW, as I remember, the people with ability to place the most draw on a cue ball from the longest distance between the CB and OB were not only jacked up but were hitting only a cue tip or a littel less below center. I have been told this allows for the most power in a power draw. When I attempt these types of draw shots it does seem that there is more power in a power draw with slightly below center jacked up shot an stroked like a normal draw shot would be stroked.

It seems to me that when the physics is discussed the angle of approach is not considered in a power draw. energy transfer would be diffeent at different angles of approach and would allow for imparting more transfer. But that is not my area so I will leave it alone.

JimS
08-11-2008, 04:28 PM
:thumbup: I read on this site somewhere that Buddy says to jack up a little and move the rear hand back to the butt of the cue. He says that will cause arguments about why it works and to not worry about why it works.. just do it because it does work. Buddy's my-Man. :groucho: :cool: :thumbup2: :ok: :winknudge: :wink2: :yes:

Cameron Smith
08-11-2008, 08:18 PM
The key to a power draw shot is to ensure that you aren't raising your tip upon contact.

A lot of people try to smash this shot in and end up playing a stop shot, which is generally due to premature elbow dropage.

Edit: Oh yeah and a good follow through too!

td873
08-11-2008, 09:03 PM
From 7 diamonds it is necessary to jack the cue stick because there is not sufficient room between the rail and the CB to keep it level.
Here's a 7 diamond shot: cue ball is 1 ball from the rail, OB is about 1 chalk from the rail on the first diamond [7 diamonds away]. Pocket the OB and draw the table [plus a little more].

Getting draw is just 1/2 the battle - since this shot is particularly tough at this angle - especially shooting into tight (4.5") pockets. [IMO this is more difficult than a 7 diamond shot with the OB in the jaws, as you automatically make the ball]. And being jacked up makes this shot about 5X harder. I would say just pocketing the OB at speed 5 out of 10 times would be a pretty good feat. Drawing the length of the table, well, now that's a draw shot. I'd put myself at about 40%+ on this particular shot.


<iframe src="http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AaDK2PTYW3UaDK3Ubjv2kTYW3kYlx2kNUg2kLXX@" noresize="noresize" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" frameborder="no" width="660" height="430" ></iframe>




-td

Patrick Johnson
08-11-2008, 09:18 PM
When the stick is intentionally jacked up there is more draw effect. This simply makes sense because one is coming in at an angle that is conducive to placing more back spin on the OB. That is when an anglular approach is used it is possible that the CB is slightly trapped against the cloth allowing more back spin to be imparted.

You get just as much backspin with a nearly level cue as with a jacked up cue. Jacking up just changes the direction of force to more vertical, which doesn't diminish spin, but does diminish forward speed, increasing the spin-to-speed ratio. Increasing the spin-to-speed ratio doesn't help full-hit draw shots, since the full-on collision with the OB removes all forward speed but very little backspin anyway.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
08-11-2008, 09:23 PM
PKM:
You would aim CTE for a straight-in shot?

av84fun:
Yes

!

LOL. I suppose on a straight-in shot you pivot back to center after not moving your bridge?

pj
chgo

av84fun
08-11-2008, 10:06 PM
!

LOL. I suppose on a straight-in shot you pivot back to center after not moving your bridge?

pj
chgo

Yet another nonsensical post from a man who obviously doesn't understand the system...admits he doesn't fully understand it...refuses instruction from a NOTED instructor because he says he doesn't believe in systems, period...but criticizes the system anyway.

And as far as pivoting after NOT moving the bridge hand...of course I don't move my bridge hand. Do you move your bridge hand after you're down on shots Patrick?

The reason the CTE players approach straight ins as they would any other shot is for the sake of CONSISTENCY.

Maybe you didn't get the memo but consistency in shooting pool shots is the hallmark of advanced players.

Jim

JoeW
08-12-2008, 05:57 AM
TD873 said, "Getting draw is just 1/2 the battle - since this shot is particularly tough at this angle - especially shooting into tight (4.5") pockets. [IMO this is more difficult than a 7 diamond shot with the OB in the jaws, as you automatically make the ball]. And being jacked up makes this shot about 5X harder. I would say just pocketing the OB at speed 5 out of 10 times would be a pretty good feat. Drawing the length of the table, well, now that's a draw shot. I'd put myself at about 40%+ on this particular shot."

That is one heck of a shot to make with 40% consistency. That is a cool avatar. You had me scratching my screen :D

BTW those who can make the 7 diamond shot in the jaws of the pocket say that it too must be hit perfectly or the CB returns at an unknown angle and may not come back to the point or origin.

PJ, I know that my thoughts are against the grain of conventional wisdom but consider this analogy for a minute. If you want to impart back spin on a basketball thrown to the ground, like we did when we were kids, it is best to push the ball away at an angle to get the maximum spin and power.

If I hit a CB at an angle below center there is (should be?) more resistance from the ball and the cloth covered table. This resistance allows me to impart more spin on the CB. With sufficient force I can make the CB obtain more spin and the necessary forward movement simultaneously.

I would think that those trained in Physics could determine the trade offs for the different vectors and the required amounts of force for the energy transfer with different amounts of table resistance. That is, such a shot requires more force but would (could) produce more back spin.

I am merely attempting to explain what I have seen by those who can make these shots.

I think that this type of explanation is in line with the massive amounts of back spin obtained with a masse. Perhaps a power draw is a variation on a masse ??? See TD873 diagram above. He has incredible back spin on that cb and sufficient force to pocket the OB. That is one helluva stroke.

Patrick Johnson
08-12-2008, 06:48 AM
PJ, I know that my thoughts are against the grain of conventional wisdom...

It's not "conventional wisdom", Joe, it's well established physics.

If I hit a CB at an angle below center there is (should be?) more resistance from the ball and the cloth covered table. This resistance allows me to impart more spin on the CB.

No, this resistance reduces the amount of spin you can put on the CB. That's why it's called resistance.

With sufficient force I can make the CB obtain more spin and the necessary forward movement simultaneously.

The key phrase here is "with sufficient force". The reason you get more spin is because you hit harder. You get less spin for the same force compared with a more level cue. To put it another way, for shots with the same force (all the way up to maximum force), you get more backspin with a more level cue. This also means you can get more maximum spin with a more level cue.

I would think that those trained in Physics could determine the trade offs for the different vectors and the required amounts of force for the energy transfer with different amounts of table resistance.

You would think right. It has been done, and the results are as I described: jacking up reduces backspin, but it reduces forward speed even more, creating the illusion of more spin.

Perhaps a power draw is a variation on a masse ???

A jacked up draw shot is indeed a variation on a masse. But the important thing in a masse is spin-to-speed ratio, not absolute RPMs. Jacking up reduces absolute RPMs but increases the spin-to-speed ratio (that's what I said in my previous answer).

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
08-12-2008, 07:06 AM
Yet another nonsensical post from a man who obviously doesn't understand the system...admits he doesn't fully understand it...refuses instruction from a NOTED instructor because he says he doesn't believe in systems, period...but criticizes the system anyway.

Jim, I think you know full well by now that I'm not criticizing this system or saying it doesn't work - what's being said (and not just by me) is that you don't understand how it works. Stop trying to shift the focus to the system and face up to your own errors. It's your lack of understanding of how this system works (coupled with your stubborn bombast) that's the problem in these threads.

pj
chgo

td873
08-12-2008, 09:50 AM
See TD873 diagram above. He has incredible back spin on that cb and sufficient force to pocket the OB. That is one helluva stroke.
For those that haven't already viewed it, I posted this shot some time ago on YouTube. I planned to shoot it 10 times in a row, but ended up shooting it 11, making only 5. It really is a tough shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ8S2RC5_kw

-td

cookie man
08-12-2008, 09:54 AM
!

LOL. I suppose on a straight-in shot you pivot back to center after not moving your bridge?

pj
chgo
Busta pivots on his lag shot. What else do you need to know!!!

Scott Lee
08-12-2008, 10:01 AM
Come on both of you. We're all tired of your personal tirades against one another. It takes huge amounts of thread space, with no positive benefit to anybody (of the 30+ pages just on the Hal Houle thread, your personal sh*t is responsible for AT LEAST half of the posts). Take your arguments and insults where they belong...either to PM's or NPR. You are both friends and students of mine, but frankly I'm getting darn tired of the back and forth B.S. between you...that goes on, and on, and on, and on....

Respectfully,

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Jim, I think you know full well by now that I'm not criticizing this system or saying it doesn't work - what's being said (and not just by me) is that you don't understand how it works. Stop trying to shift the focus to the system and face up to your own errors. It's your lack of understanding of how this system works (coupled with your stubborn bombast) that's the problem in these threads.

pj
chgo

hang-the-9
08-12-2008, 10:04 AM
What kind of stroke does it take to make this straight-in shot and draw all the way back? Can it be done with a relatively level stroke (I'm sure people can do it of course, but practically speaking) or would you likely need to be jacked up slightly more than is necessary to stroke the ball? What kind of power is necessary?

I know it's not a practical shot by any means, I was just wondering as a test of cueing. It's beyond my ability right now.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2ALFM4POpA@

If you drop your bridge hand a bit, you should not have to raise the butt of the cue. This is makable with a firm but not super hard stroke to bring back to the rail. A good player should be able to draw to the rail and back uptable at least half way.

For me, I need to stiffen up my wrist a bit to make that shot and draw back into the opposite pocket. Otherwise my aim goes off and I miss the shot, although the draw part works. Trying to use a Bustamante/Efren type stroke on this may be bad, I use more of a Buddy Hall/Nick Varner hit on a long shot like this. That's just what I found works for me, your milage will vary of-course.