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Roy Steffensen
08-11-2008, 04:40 PM
Ok, the statement doesn't say exactly that Mike Sigel is not a World 9-ball Champion, but they say that players who has not won a wpa-sanctioned World Championships are not considered to be World Champions.

I tend to agree with WPA about this subject, but what I found more interesting is that in the article it says that EPBF has penalized Dominic Jentsch for playing in the 10-ball tournament of Charlie Williams. When EPBF can't produce enough interesting tournaments for youth in Europe, how can they penalize them for playing in tournaments outside Europe??? This is just crazy...

Below is the article from the mainpage of AZBilliards.

Pretenders to the Title
The following is an open letter received by AzBilliards from Thomas Overbeck - WPA Vice President/Sports Director...


Since 1988, the WPA has been giving structure to the World of Pool and Billiards and has enjoyed quite some success in doing so. The WPA hosts regular World Championships in all of the major disciplines, participates in the World Games and is acknowledged by the IOC.

Prior to the formation of the WPA just anyone could name his event ?World Championship, a move that was self-glorious and that did not elevate the fidelity of the game. We at the WPA take the tile ?World Champion? very seriously and you can find a complete list of all World Champions on our website at: http://www.wpapool.com/index.asp?content=champ. Anyone who is not mentioned here is not considered to be a World Champion!

It was the WPA that took upon itself the task to find organizers, sponsors and federations to work with and to create an international network of organizations in order to take the sport where we feel it belongs. Nowadays, we have members in every continent. When we organize World Championships we issue fair quotas and invite players from all around the World to find the true champion. This is how we feel it should be done.

Therefore, we at the WPA must take exception to the recent headline on AZBilliards titled: ?Jentsch and Lovely have become World Champions in Ten-Ball?. Indeed, they have not. For your information: This event is not considered to be an official World Championships. A private organizer invited players of his own choice and named the event without the authorization of the WPA. We do not acknowledge the title of this event or the titles for the players. We feel that the time has not yet arrived to begin a Junior 10-Ball World Championships. For your information: Jentsch has been penalized by his home federation (the EPBF) for participating in an unsanctioned event.

It is our hope that all promoters and organizers might rethink their attitude as concerns the naming of future events. This would be for the betterment of the sport, the players, and especially it would be a tribute to those players who truly are World Champions. It gives their title the necessary respect and dignity that we feel it deserves.

By AzB Staff - 2008-08-11

Roy Steffensen
08-11-2008, 04:44 PM
For your information, this is the World Champions, says the WPA

World 8-ball Champions:
2008 Ralf Souquet (GER)
2007 Ronnie Alcano (PHI)
2005 Chia-Ching Wu (TPE)
2004 Efren Reyes (PHI)

World 9-ball Champions:
Year Men Women Juniors Wheelchair
2008 Yuan Chun-Lin (TPE)
Remark:
2007 Daryl Peach (ENG) Xiao Ting Pan (CHN) Yi-Ko Pin (TPE) and Mary Rakin (USA) Henrik Larsson (SWE)
Remark:
2006 Ronnie Alcano (PHI) Kim Ga Young (KOR) Yu-Lun Wu (TPE) and Mary Rakin (USA)
Remark:
2005 Chia-Ching Wu (TPE) Yu-Lun Wu (TPE) and Jasmin Ouschan (AUT) Fred Dinsmore (IRE)
Remark:
2004 Alex Pagulayan (CAN) Kim Ga Young (KOR) Yu-Lun Wu (TPE) and Meng-Meng Zhou (CHN) Shou-Wei Chu (TPE)
Remark:
2003 Thorsten Hohmann (GER) **Not Played ** Vilmos Foeldes (HUN) Henrik Larsson (SWE)
Remark:
2002 Earl Strickland (USA) Hsin-Mei Liu (TPE) Ying-Chieh (TPE) Jounu T?hti (FIN)
Remark:
2001 Mika Immonen (FIN) Allison Fisher (ENG) Brian Naithani (GER) **
Remark:
2000 Fong-Pang Chao (TPE) Julie Kelly (IRE) Dimitri Jungo (SUI) Fred Dinsmore (IRE)
Remark:
1999 Nick Varner (USA) , Efren Reyes (PHI) Hsin-Mei Liu(TPE) Hui-Chan Lu (TPE) Bob Calderon (USA)
Remark: Played Twice in 1999
1998 Kunihiko Takahashi (JPN) Allison Fisher (ENG) Hui-Chan Lu (TPE) **
Remark:
1997 Johnny Archer (USA) Allison Fisher (ENG) Christian Goteman (GER) **
Remark:
1996 Ralf Souquet (GER) Allison Fisher (ENG) Kung-Chang Huang (TPE) **
Remark:
1995 Oliver Ortmann (GER) Gerda Hofstatter (AUT) Kung-Chang Huang (TPE) **
Remark:
1994 Takeshi Okumura (JPN) Ewa Mataya-Laurance (SWE) Jorn Kjolaas (NOR) **

World Straight Pool Champions:
2007 Oliver Ortmann (GER)
2006 Thorsten Hohmann (GER)

Dr. Dissent
08-11-2008, 07:30 PM
Ok, the statement doesn't say exactly that Mike Sigel is not a World 9-ball Champion, but they say that players who has not won a wpa-sanctioned World Championships are not considered to be World Champions.

I tend to agree with WPA about this subject, but what I found more interesting is that in the article it says that EPBF has penalized Dominic Jentsch for playing in the 10-ball tournament of Charlie Williams. When EPBF can't produce enough interesting tournaments for youth in Europe, how can they penalize them for playing in tournaments outside Europe??? This is just crazy...

Below is the article from the mainpage of AZBilliards.

Pretenders to the Title
The following is an open letter received by AzBilliards from Thomas Overbeck - WPA Vice President/Sports Director...


Since 1988, the WPA has been giving structure to the World of Pool and Billiards and has enjoyed quite some success in doing so. The WPA hosts regular World Championships in all of the major disciplines, participates in the World Games and is acknowledged by the IOC.

Prior to the formation of the WPA just anyone could name his event ?World Championship, a move that was self-glorious and that did not elevate the fidelity of the game. We at the WPA take the tile ?World Champion? very seriously and you can find a complete list of all World Champions on our website at: http://www.wpapool.com/index.asp?content=champ. Anyone who is not mentioned here is not considered to be a World Champion!

It was the WPA that took upon itself the task to find organizers, sponsors and federations to work with and to create an international network of organizations in order to take the sport where we feel it belongs. Nowadays, we have members in every continent. When we organize World Championships we issue fair quotas and invite players from all around the World to find the true champion. This is how we feel it should be done.

Therefore, we at the WPA must take exception to the recent headline on AZBilliards titled: ?Jentsch and Lovely have become World Champions in Ten-Ball?. Indeed, they have not. For your information: This event is not considered to be an official World Championships. A private organizer invited players of his own choice and named the event without the authorization of the WPA. We do not acknowledge the title of this event or the titles for the players. We feel that the time has not yet arrived to begin a Junior 10-Ball World Championships. For your information: Jentsch has been penalized by his home federation (the EPBF) for participating in an unsanctioned event.

It is our hope that all promoters and organizers might rethink their attitude as concerns the naming of future events. This would be for the betterment of the sport, the players, and especially it would be a tribute to those players who truly are World Champions. It gives their title the necessary respect and dignity that we feel it deserves.

By AzB Staff - 2008-08-11

The first problem I had with the article was the selected title by Mr. Overbeck. I found it offensive to all "World Champions" recognized or not by the WPA that have participated in Independent or International Events to be called "Pretenders to The Title."

I see no problems whatsoever with many of the recognized Regional, National, State, Junior, U.S.A., European, Asian, and Independant Champions including "WPA recognized Champions" to gather themselves in "any" event to test their skills with "renowned or elite" players from around the World.

If the promoter of the event wants to call it a ?World Championship? since he/she has gathered ?some? of the best known players from around the World including your own WPA Champions, and there has been no other tournament with that title; there should be no other recourse but to name it a ?World Championship.? I believe that calling it anything other than a World Championship, would not be right unless Overbeck believes that calling it the ?World Pretenders to the Title Championship? is a fit name to the event.

Talk about ?not elevating the fidelity of the game? when we have a World Leader diminishing the accomplishments of two upcoming players like Jentsch and Lovely. They were not playing by themselves, and the field had some pretty good players, although not as many as some would have liked.

Overbeck?s statement could also set a ?dangerous precedent? by letting the EPBF take disciplinary action against Jentsch. What would happen if Ralph Souquet, Oliver Ortmann, Thorsten Hohmann, Efren Reyes, Daryl Peach, Chia Ching Wu, Ronnie Alcano, Alex Pagulayan, Mika Immonen, Fong Pang Chao, Johnny Archer, Nick Varner, Earl Strickland decide to continue participating in non-sanctioned WPA events? Would they also be disciplined and not allowed in any other WPA event just because they want to participate in non-sanctioned events, let?s say like the U.S. Open?

Overbeck needs to apologize and correct his statement as soon as possible. He should also intervene on behalf of Jentsch to get his suspension lifted. This should be done immediately, without further delay.

I would also suggest to Overbeck that he should carefully think about the titles to his press releases, and think carefully about the harm he may impose to others before sending those darn things out. Overbeck is demanding dignity and respect from promoters and organizers but has shown no respect to ?World Renowned and Upcoming Elite Players? with this press release.

Dr. Dissent has spoken.......; Mr. Overbeck, do you care to respond???

Blackjack
08-11-2008, 07:39 PM
Business as usual.

Somebody in the WPA needs to pull their head out of their ass and accept the fact that the game of pool (and world championships) existed prior to their existence.

MikeJanis
08-11-2008, 07:45 PM
Business as usual.

Somebody in the WPA needs to pull their head out of their ass and accept the fact that the game of pool (and world championships) existed prior to their existence.

I don't have an argument for that one so I must agree.

However, I do see an importance on having a unified sport and since the WPA is at the top of the food chain in the organizational department of the world fererations I hope that in the future we can all find a way to work together and play by the same structure in our spot.


Mj

poolmouse
08-11-2008, 07:52 PM
...the game of pool (and world championships) existed prior to their existence...

I agree 100%. I can't help but cringe when I hear an organization trying to wrestle control of a sport from other organizations. Nobody owns the "World Champion" title.

Poolmouse

jasonlaus
08-11-2008, 07:55 PM
The day that Mike Sigel isn't a world champion is a sad day for pool. Don't really care for the guy BUT he could/can? play.

Cameron Smith
08-11-2008, 07:56 PM
This statement is incredibly disrespectful to the history of our game. I can understand the arguement against any tournaments held within the last 20 years, however there are other games besides 9 ball and if they weren't going to sanction a tournament what was everyone else supposed to do?

Furthermore do they mean to say that Thorsten Hohmann was the first ever world 14.1 champion!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

SpiderWebComm
08-11-2008, 08:01 PM
Business as usual.

Somebody in the WPA needs to pull their head out of their ass and accept the fact that the game of pool (and world championships) existed prior to their existence.

So eloquent. I love it.

Exactly what BJ said.....So Mosconi never won one either?? Sigel, Hopkins, not one? PSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSH.... World Champion *THIS*

selftaut
08-11-2008, 08:04 PM
He goes on to say that these promoters are "self-glorious" and "invite who they want" then call the winner the world champ, well excuse me? what does the WPA do? they just invite who they want, thats what they do!!.

IMO, the WPA will never hold an event that mirrors the US Open, anyone that wants to play can simply plunk down the entry and goes for it.

T411
08-11-2008, 08:20 PM
Somebody in the WPA needs to pull their head out of their ass and accept the fact that the game of pool (and world championships) existed prior to their existence.

TRUE THAT!

I don't have an argument for that one so I must agree.

However, I do see an importance on having a unified sport and since the WPA is at the top of the food chain in the organizational department of the world fererations I hope that in the future we can all find a way to work together and play by the same structure in our spot.
Mj

If the money is not going to get much better who cares if the sport is unified.

mmwtdh
08-11-2008, 08:59 PM
Good luck trademarking "World Champion", puleez.............

SUPERSTAR
08-11-2008, 09:22 PM
I dunno, but to me, any invitational tournament is not a world championship.

That is not to say that people that have won world championships are not true champions, but at the same time, it should be a first come first serve basis for EVERY tournament to be filled. That way, it doesn't become a social gathering for privileged individuals who know the right people, whether they stink at pool or not.

Everyone should have the same chance as everyone else.

Just my opinion.

bandido
08-11-2008, 10:00 PM
Oooops! Someone from Asia and Europe voiced out discontent but when America speaks the situation now turns serious.

GMAC
08-12-2008, 06:00 AM
Oooops! Someone from Asia and Europe voiced out discontent but when America speaks the situation now turns serious.


No, you can't start a 14.1 World Championship in 2006 and say everybody who came before 06' can go suck --------. When nonsense is spoken a proper response is required.

snookerish
08-12-2008, 06:25 AM
i can see the situation going like boxing - a bunch of different organisations and 4 separate so-called "world championships"
the game needs unity, organisation and probably a lot of consolidation at the very top level.
too may fingers in the pie, methinks.

Roy Steffensen
08-12-2008, 06:48 AM
I agree with what has been said about the period before WPA started to organize WC. But when IPT organized their World 8-ball Championship, I didn't look at it as a World Championship.

It was probably the toughest ever 8-ball tournament, with the toughest field to ever play in such a big 8-ball tournament. But was it a World Championship?

hang-the-9
08-12-2008, 06:51 AM
This is exactly why I put in a post a while back asking what makes a World tournament. Seems people are divided on this a bit. This is another reason why the PGA, ATP, MLB and such are solid money making operations, there are not 13 of them fighting for control of the same thing. The pro cue sport players have no idea which way to turn or where they can play.

Grady
08-12-2008, 07:47 AM
I'm going to make this short. The WPA is the worst of all the orgs. and that's saying something. The UPA and BCA are terrible but not as bad as the WPA. How arrogant of them to say that only their events are World Championships.
Mark my words. It won't be long until, if these groups get their way, that Americans will really be given short shrift. Barry Hearn, of course has led the way in these discriminatory efforts.
The current politics of our beautiful sport just make me sick. Sigel has won at least 100 tournaments, about 20% of which are legitimate world titles.

Roy Steffensen
08-12-2008, 07:57 AM
When for example the World 9-ball Championship was organized before WPA, who did it, and who could play? If invitees, who got them?

I am just curious. Was it Americans organizing, and only Americans playing in them? I am thinking of "World Championships" from the late 80's to early 90's.

Reason for asking is, did Europeans get invited? And did they play? If they didn't play, or get invited, why not?

This is the European 9-ball medalists from 1987 to 1993

1993 - Oslo, Norway
1. Ortmann, Oliver GER
2. Souquet, Ralf GER
3. Duregger, Werner AUT
3. Deigner, Tony GER

1992 - Velden, Austria
1. Duregger, Werner AUT
2. Lannoye, Mario BEL
3. Bergendorff, Niklas SWE
3. Lundell, Jan SWE

1991 - Mussolente, Italy
1. Engert, Thomas GER
2. Deigner, Tony GER
3. Lofstrand, Christer SWE
3. Kristianssen, Vegar NOR

1990 - St. Moritz, Switzerland
1. Engert, Thomas GER
2. Hallgren, Mikael SWE
3. Riiber, Lars Harold NOR
3. Lang, Norbert GER

1989 - Schaan, Liechtenstein
1. Engert, Thomas GER
2. Storm, Tom SWE
3. Pedersen, Bengt SWE
3. Hollenstein, Rolf SUI

1988 - Stockholm, Sweden
1. Storm, Tom SWE
2. Lofstrand, Christer SWE
3. Brewer, Keith GBR
3. Karlsson, Jurgen SWE

1987 - Stolberg, Germany
1. Storm, Tom SWE
2. Sander, Uwe GER
3. Deigner, Tony GER
3. Begni, Carlo SUI

Roy Steffensen
08-12-2008, 07:59 AM
This is the European 14-1 medalists from 1980 to 1992.

Were any of them invited ot play in any World 14-1 Championships between 1980 to 1992, if there were such Championships organized? Or did they play if it was an open event? Did nations in Europe even know about World Championships hosted in America during these years?

1992 - Ljubliana, Slovenia
1. Bergendorff, Niklas SWE
2. Souquet, Ralf GER
3. Riiber, Lars Harold NOR
3. Ortmann, Oliver GER

1991 - Mussolente, Italy
1. Lundell, Jan SWE
2. Ortmann, Oliver GER
3. Markert, Waldemar GER
3. Hollenstein, Rolf SUI

1990 - St. Moritz, Switzerland
1. Ortmann, Oliver GER
2. Markert, Waldemar GER
3. Fasel, Samuel SUI
3. Strom, Arne SWE

1989 - Schaan, Liechtenstein
1. Ortmann, Oliver GER
2. Anda, Per SWE
3. Johannessen, Christian NOR
3. Lundell, Jan SWE

1988 - Stockholm, Sweden
1. Anda, Per SWE
2. Hoffmann, Bernd GER
3. Ortmann, Oliver GER
3. Schwarz, Albert AUT

1987 - Stolberg, Germany
1. Ortmann, Oliver GER
2. Engert, Thomas GER
3. Anda, Per SWE
3. Lang, Norbert GER

1986 - Oslo, Norway
1. Lang, Norbert GER
2. Karlsson, Jurgen SWE
3. Le Nory, Micke GBR
3. Pedersen, Bengt SWE

1985 - St. Johann, Austria
1. Karlsson, Jurgen SWE
2. Pedersen, Bengt SWE
3. Larsen, Reider Rune NOR
3. Nickel, Edgar GER

1984 - London, Great Britain
1. Pedersen, Bengt SWE
2. Ernst, Bruno GER
3. L Orange, Bjorn NOR
3. Hanscho, Karl AUT

1983 - Valkenburg, Netherlands
1. L Orange, Bjorn NOR
2. Jonsson, Bjorn SWE
3. Hjalmvall, Ulf SWE
3. Ernst, Bruno GER

1982 - Goteborg, Sweden
1. Hjalmvall, Ulf SWE
2. Karlsson, Jurgen SWE
3. L Orange, Bjorn NOR
3. Nickel, Edgar GER

1981 - Bern, Switzerland
1. Karlsson, Jurgen SWE
2. Eriksson, Tomy SWE
3. Markert, Waldemar GER
3. Laird, Roy IRL

1980 - Alsdorf, Germany
1. Eriksson, Tomy SWE
2. Spaniol, Norbert GER
3. Laird, Roy IRL
3. Nickel, Edgar

Roy Steffensen
08-12-2008, 08:14 AM
For example, when Bobby Hunter became World Straight Pool Champion in 1990, did Europeans like Oliver Ortmann play?

I am just interested in how the events were organised. How many players? Where did they come from? How did they earn their spots in the field?

Once again, I agree that Bobby Hunter is a World 14-1 Champion. But if for example Grady now puts up another 14-1 tournament and calls it the World 14-1 Championships, as he has said he will do, will people look at it as a World Championship? If so, why?

Blackjack
08-12-2008, 08:19 AM
IIRC, the World Championships in 1993 included most of the players that competed in World Team Billiards -which was sponsored by Bob Meucci and spearheaded by Don Mackey.

The World Championships were open to all players that earned points on the pro tour. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but the top 32 were granted entry - the top 16 were seeded accordingly - I am not sure how the last 32 players were determined.

What I do remember, was that the pro tour was open to all players. All they had to do was show up. There was no exclusion, and that is evident by the participation of Jose Parica and Efren Reyes in the 1980's.

In 1990, the World Championships were held in Germany. (Earl Won)

In 1991,the World Championships were held in Las Vegas. (Earl won against Nick Varner)

In 1992, the World Championships were held in Taipei. (Johnny Archer won over Bob Hunter)

In 1993, the World Championship was held in Las Vegas (Johnny Archer defeated Efren Reyes in the final).

The tournaments may not be recognized by the WPA, nor the champions - but to those of us who know better - the tournaments and men that won them are legendary - and no matter what some silly-ass alphabet soup organization says about it, they earned the title of "WORLD CHAMPION".

Roy Steffensen
08-12-2008, 08:23 AM
IIRC, the World Championships in 1993 included most of the players that competed in World Team Billiards -which was sponsored by Bob Meucci and spearheaded by Don Mackey.

The World Championships were open to all players that earned points on the pro tour. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but the top 32 were granted entry - the top 16 were seeded accordingly - I am not sure how the last 32 players were determined.

What I do remember, was that the pro tour was open to all players. All they had to do was show up. There was no exclusion, and that is evident by the participation of Jose Parica and Efren Reyes in the 1980's.

In 1990, the World Championships were held in Germany. (Earl Won)

In 1991,the World Championships were held in Las Vegas. (Earl won against Nick Varner)

In 1992, the World Championships were held in Taipei. (Johnny Archer won over Bob Hunter)

In 1993, the World Championship was held in Las Vegas (Johnny Archer defeated Efren Reyes in the final).

The tournaments may not be recognized by the WPA, nor the champions - but to those of us who know better - the tournaments and men that won them are legendary - and no matter what some silly-ass alphabet soup organization says about it, they earned the title of "WORLD CHAMPION".

thanks david! That's the kind of information I am looking for!!! Where can I find more information about these tournaments?

Blackjack
08-12-2008, 08:32 AM
thanks david! That's the kind of information I am looking for!!! Where can I find more information about these tournaments?

I would get with Terry Ardeno - he has stats for most of the events from that era.

The PBT was open for all players, to include the players in Europe. I am positive that Thomas Engert, Ralph Eckert, Ralf Souquet, Norbert Lang. Tom Storm, Valdimar Markert, Niklas Bergendorf, Andam, Luat, Bustamante, Reyes, Parica, Tommy Donlon, Paul Potier, Takeshi Okumura, Fong Pang Chao, and many many other played in these events - especially the one held in Germany in 1990, and the 1993 WC that was held in Las Vegas.

There is virually no mention anywhere of the 1993 event in Vegas, but Johnny Archer defeated Efren in the final. The 1990 event in Germany, the final was Earl Strickland Vs Jeff Carter.

Roy Steffensen
08-12-2008, 08:37 AM
Would the statement from WPA be different if for example Ralf Souquet had won a World Championship before WPA started to organize them?

Would Thomas Overbeck, visepresident of WPA and german citizen, tell Ralf that the tournament he won was not a real World Championship? We will never know, but I know what I believe...

Steve Ellis
08-12-2008, 08:43 AM
The WPA is proclaiming themselves the world body, but that means no more than the alphabet soup of boxing sanctioning organizations with their legions of world champions. Just because there are no rival associations for pool due to its lack of popularity doesn't make the the WPA any more meaningful than the WBA (World Boxing Association).
Mike Sigel was a world champion no matter how you slice it. The most important opinion is that of the body of pool players, not some artificial association. They can say Mike Sigel is not a WPA recognized world champion, but that is all they can say.
JMHO.
Steve.

bfdlad
08-12-2008, 08:44 AM
I think and I could be wrong but between 90 and 95 Johnny and Earl won just about everything. Earl was player of the decade for the 80's so he must have taken alot of tourneys down during that tme.

Sweet Marissa
08-12-2008, 09:01 AM
What Blackjack, Spider, and Superstar said.

Mike Sigel may be loved and hated, but there's no denying he is a WORLD CHAMPION at this sport.

jay helfert
08-12-2008, 10:35 AM
For your information, this is the World Champions, says the WPA

World 8-ball Champions:
2008 Ralf Souquet (GER)
2007 Ronnie Alcano (PHI)
2005 Chia-Ching Wu (TPE)
2004 Efren Reyes (PHI)

World 9-ball Champions:
Year Men Women Juniors Wheelchair
2008 Yuan Chun-Lin (TPE)
Remark:
2007 Daryl Peach (ENG) Xiao Ting Pan (CHN) Yi-Ko Pin (TPE) and Mary Rakin (USA) Henrik Larsson (SWE)
Remark:
2006 Ronnie Alcano (PHI) Kim Ga Young (KOR) Yu-Lun Wu (TPE) and Mary Rakin (USA)
Remark:
2005 Chia-Ching Wu (TPE) Yu-Lun Wu (TPE) and Jasmin Ouschan (AUT) Fred Dinsmore (IRE)
Remark:
2004 Alex Pagulayan (CAN) Kim Ga Young (KOR) Yu-Lun Wu (TPE) and Meng-Meng Zhou (CHN) Shou-Wei Chu (TPE)
Remark:
2003 Thorsten Hohmann (GER) **Not Played ** Vilmos Foeldes (HUN) Henrik Larsson (SWE)
Remark:
2002 Earl Strickland (USA) Hsin-Mei Liu (TPE) Ying-Chieh (TPE) Jounu T?hti (FIN)
Remark:
2001 Mika Immonen (FIN) Allison Fisher (ENG) Brian Naithani (GER) **
Remark:
2000 Fong-Pang Chao (TPE) Julie Kelly (IRE) Dimitri Jungo (SUI) Fred Dinsmore (IRE)
Remark:
1999 Nick Varner (USA) , Efren Reyes (PHI) Hsin-Mei Liu(TPE) Hui-Chan Lu (TPE) Bob Calderon (USA)
Remark: Played Twice in 1999
1998 Kunihiko Takahashi (JPN) Allison Fisher (ENG) Hui-Chan Lu (TPE) **
Remark:
1997 Johnny Archer (USA) Allison Fisher (ENG) Christian Goteman (GER) **
Remark:
1996 Ralf Souquet (GER) Allison Fisher (ENG) Kung-Chang Huang (TPE) **
Remark:
1995 Oliver Ortmann (GER) Gerda Hofstatter (AUT) Kung-Chang Huang (TPE) **
Remark:
1994 Takeshi Okumura (JPN) Ewa Mataya-Laurance (SWE) Jorn Kjolaas (NOR) **

World Straight Pool Champions:
2007 Oliver Ortmann (GER)
2006 Thorsten Hohmann (GER)

World Champions or not, there are only three or four guys on this list who could hold Mike's cue. By that I mean are in the same class as Mike as a player. I'm not Mike's biggest fan right now, but there is no mistaking what a great player he was. Only one of the best of all time. And if he wants to call himself a former World Champion I have no problem with that.

Koop
08-12-2008, 10:46 AM
Mike Sigel made straight pool look easy. To me, that says something because that is one helluva difficult game.
I don't need to look any further than his 150 and out against Mike Zuglan.
This is just crazy talk :cool:

Dr. Dissent
08-12-2008, 02:33 PM
IIRC, the World Championships in 1993 included most of the players that competed in World Team Billiards -which was sponsored by Bob Meucci and spearheaded by Don Mackey.

The World Championships were open to all players that earned points on the pro tour. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but the top 32 were granted entry - the top 16 were seeded accordingly - I am not sure how the last 32 players were determined.

What I do remember, was that the pro tour was open to all players. All they had to do was show up. There was no exclusion, and that is evident by the participation of Jose Parica and Efren Reyes in the 1980's.

In 1990, the World Championships were held in Germany. (Earl Won)

In 1991,the World Championships were held in Las Vegas. (Earl won against Nick Varner)

In 1992, the World Championships were held in Taipei. (Johnny Archer won over Bob Hunter)

In 1993, the World Championship was held in Las Vegas (Johnny Archer defeated Efren Reyes in the final).

The tournaments may not be recognized by the WPA, nor the champions - but to those of us who know better - the tournaments and men that won them are legendary - and no matter what some silly-ass alphabet soup organization says about it, they earned the title of "WORLD CHAMPION".

The WPA website lists the following Champions from 1990 through 1993:
Click here to confirm: http://www.wpapool.com/index.asp?content=champ_9ball

Earl Strickland in 1990 (partially in accordance with your info, need to confirm site)
Earl Strickland in 1991 (partially in accordance with your info, need to confirm site)
Johnny Archer in 1992 (partially in accordance with your info, need to confirm site)
Fong-Pang Chao in 1993 (defers from your info).

Maybe additional research is required to check about 1990's World Championships.....

Mike Templeton
08-12-2008, 03:33 PM
World Champions or not, there are only three or four guys on this list who could hold Mike's cue. By that I mean are in the same class as Mike as a player. I'm not Mike's biggest fan right now, but there is no mistaking what a great player he was. Only one of the best of all time. And if he wants to call himself a former World Champion I have no problem with that.
Like Jay, I'm not a huge fan of Sigel. But if anyone or any governing body thinks that he is not a legitimate World Champion, they need their heads examined.

Mike

bandido
08-12-2008, 05:06 PM
Like Jay, I'm not a huge fan of Sigel. But if anyone or any governing body thinks that he is not a legitimate World Champion, they need their heads examined.

Mike

Either them or you guys being the ones who need your heads examined. But you guys include Efren, who at one time stated that Mike was his idol, and I've never heard Efren make a partial or unfair declaration.

Hmmmm, forget about heads being examined, off with their heads! LOL!


<<< thinks its retaliation for the IPT thingie and showing who's boss 'coz of the Spain and BMPAP thingie.

Neil
08-12-2008, 08:07 PM
................

3andstop
08-12-2008, 08:43 PM
I'll admit I don't stay on top of all these politics, and I actually avoid reading most of these related threads.

I did read this statement however, and my jaw dropped at how outrageously arrogant, ridiculous, absurd and ludicrous it was to say this.

Because I don't follow all this, I am assuming there will be a logical answer to my question ....

Why would Mike Sigel, or any of the defamed players agree to play in this upcoming 14.1 event in NJ? I see this as a direct slap in the face to them. I don't get it. Could someone explain please?

Johnnyt
08-12-2008, 09:11 PM
About two years ago on here I wrote a thread about having a National tour in the US for US players only (just like most other countries have). Well I got flamed pretty good for even thinking of doing that. Some said we would miss Efern and other great player from around the world. Others called me some unkind things that I'm still stinging from (NOT). Anyway, does an all US tour look any better now? :angry: Johnnyt

J. Learned Hand
08-12-2008, 10:02 PM
Business as usual.

Somebody in the WPA needs to pull their head out of their ass and accept the fact that the game of pool (and world championships) existed prior to their existence.

http://www.funlol.com/189/Head_Up_Your_Ass.html
http://www.funlol.com/189/Head_Up_Your_Ass.html

softshot
08-12-2008, 10:46 PM
all this in fighting and back biting..

and NOONE can figure out why pool cant get its sh*t together.

it's like two bangers arguing over the spot for a $20 game

if all of you people would grow up, suck it up, and compromise

all of these problems would go away..

grow up people... seriously

all of you involved in world class competition.. need to get on the same page

if you don't pro pool will just fade away

3andstop
08-13-2008, 06:02 AM
all this in fighting and back biting..

and NOONE can figure out why pool cant get its sh*t together.

it's like two bangers arguing over the spot for a $20 game

if all of you people would grow up, suck it up, and compromise

all of these problems would go away..

grow up people... seriously

all of you involved in world class competition.. need to get on the same page

if you don't pro pool will just fade away

Of course you are right, as I mentioned earlier, I really don't know the politics of all this, but one thing is for sure. Greed and money dominate behavior in areas much less lucrative than this one. I think we can forget the idea of money hungry people giving up on low life attitudes and actions when an opportunity to make money is before them.

p.s. Being ignorant to all the politics that seem to be involved with these struggles for self proclimation, I'd still like to know why the pro's like Sigel would even play in this upcoming 14.1 event after that statement I read that slapped them in the face. It doesn't make sense.

Not a rhetorical question btw, again, I'd love someone to shed more light on this please.

sputnik
08-13-2008, 07:54 AM
Of course you are right, as I mentioned earlier, I really don't know the politics of all this, but one thing is for sure. Greed and money dominate behavior in areas much less lucrative than this one. I think we can forget the idea of money hungry people giving up on low life attitudes and actions when an opportunity to make money is before them.

p.s. Being ignorant to all the politics that seem to be involved with these struggles for self proclimation, I'd still like to know why the pro's like Sigel would even play in this upcoming 14.1 event after that statement I read that slapped them in the face. It doesn't make sense.

Not a rhetorical question btw, again, I'd love someone to shed more light on this please.

There you go... GREED AND MONEY! Politics is merely an instrument to the goal. HOW MUCH DOES WPA MAKE FOR WPA-SANCTIONED TOURNAMENTS?

Listen guys... read the pro-WPA articles. Read WPA's last two statements. These guys have been globally ripping off the pool world big time. It's all MONEY.

What do we get in return? We are all suppliers of WPA in one way or another, and since they make money on our beloved players and our patronized events, they should at least treat us with importance - fans, players, managers, and organizers included! This megalomanic system of WPA accreditations and sanctions has bred nothing but arrogance among its ranks.

However the struggle of the Filipino pro players sounded internationally, it was a fight, and it is still being fought wisely. We all are in the same boat. Unfortunately, due to the incapacity of WPA to iron out and streamline its policies to discipline the abusive, a lot of bickering is required in the process of fighting to correct things. All the posts in Philippine pool "politics" are here for everybody to learn from.

Almost all the tournaments are professional in nature (prize money), so why not GO PRO! Get your own professional leagues going with team franchise owners. This is the best way to be of service to the players as they will have a steady income in salaries and endorsements! At the same time, when there will be invitationals and world championships, the players will be in their best form to entertain the fans and to promote the sport at its best.

Would the USA basketball team be in this form without the NBA? Would the USA soccer players be this good without the MLS?

Business is bad worldwide and a lot of investors are in a wait-and-see mode. This is a good time to bring in something new. Billiards will be a very cheap medium for media exposure as compared to the other sports, but we can get there as a high-maintenance sport.

In the Philippines, we now have a new professional group (BMPAP) to supply a few franchises in a first of a kind pro league. The National Billiards League (NBL) has signed a deal with a leading sports TV station to air two-hour team matches three times a week. Forty-eight professionals will have regular high-paying jobs: Efren Reyes, Francisco Bustamante, Alex Pagulayan, Ronnie Alcano, Dennis Orcullo, Roberto Gomez, Lee Van Corteza, Rodolfo Luat, Warren Kiamco, Ramil Gallego, to name a few. Who knows, maybe in the future, there will be imports!

Go Pro! It's the best way to help ourselves!

Terry Ardeno
08-13-2008, 08:07 AM
[QUOTE=Roy Steffensen]Ok, the statement doesn't say exactly that Mike Sigel is not a World 9-ball Champion, but they say that players who has not won a wpa-sanctioned World Championships are not considered to be World Champions.

I tend to agree with WPA about this subject,



Roy,
Say for example that American style football (the NFL) started in the USA and the Super Bowel (world championship) has been played exclusively here in America.
Then say that in about 50-100 years from now, American style football has grown to be wildly popular all over the world. Then, in about 50-100 yrs from now, a new football sanctioning body with its genesis in Europe or Asia starts a new football federation and proclaims that all previous Super Bowel winners are not legit because this new organization did not sanction them. That, in a nutshell, is what is going on here with the WPA.

For them to even remotely or vaguely imply that such storied champions such as Ralph Greenleaf, Frank Taberski, Jimmy Caras, Willie Mosconi, Joe Balsis, Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins, Earl Strickland & company have not earned their World Champion titles is an arrogant and totally disrespectful view to hold. How, pray tell, will they ever gain credibility and fan backing with such preposterous thinking?

If the powers that be at the WPA were really lovers and fans of our great sport, they would have a much higher regard for the sport's rich history and the great champions of the past.

Terry Ardeno
08-13-2008, 08:47 AM
IIRC, the World Championships in 1993 included most of the players that competed in World Team Billiards -which was sponsored by Bob Meucci and spearheaded by Don Mackey.

The World Championships were open to all players that earned points on the pro tour. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but the top 32 were granted entry - the top 16 were seeded accordingly - I am not sure how the last 32 players were determined.

What I do remember, was that the pro tour was open to all players. All they had to do was show up. There was no exclusion, and that is evident by the participation of Jose Parica and Efren Reyes in the 1980's.

In 1990, the World Championships were held in Germany. (Earl Won)

In 1991,the World Championships were held in Las Vegas. (Earl won against Nick Varner)

In 1992, the World Championships were held in Taipei. (Johnny Archer won over Bob Hunter)

In 1993, the World Championship was held in Las Vegas (Johnny Archer defeated Efren Reyes in the final).

The tournaments may not be recognized by the WPA, nor the champions - but to those of us who know better - the tournaments and men that won them are legendary - and no matter what some silly-ass alphabet soup organization says about it, they earned the title of "WORLD CHAMPION".

David,
You're 100% right.

For example, the 1993 PBTA World 9 Ball Championship that was held in the Riviera Hotel's Monte Carlo Tower had 111 players playing race to 13, double elimination. When there were only 4 players left, it was changed to race to 11. It was open to any player in the world. Johnny Archer defeated Efren Reyes 11-7. Archer won $17,000 and Efren got $10,000 for 2nd place.

Among the other foreign players in that tournament were Francisco Bustamonte, Jose Parica, Rudolpho Luat, Luc Salvas and Junichi Koshigi (who ousted Nick Varner).

This was one of the earliest times that Diamond tables were used in a World Championship.

As a side note, the World Team Billiards finals as well as the Target Pool finals were held right after the tournament. Team Philippines beat team Puerto Rico, with Ireland being in 3rd place and team Germany in 4th place.

Roy Steffensen
08-13-2008, 09:10 AM
[QUOTE=Roy Steffensen]Ok, the statement doesn't say exactly that Mike Sigel is not a World 9-ball Champion, but they say that players who has not won a wpa-sanctioned World Championships are not considered to be World Champions.

I tend to agree with WPA about this subject,



Roy,
Say for example that American style football (the NFL) started in the USA and the Super Bowel (world championship) has been played exclusively here in America.
Then say that in about 50-100 years from now, American style football has grown to be wildly popular all over the world. Then, in about 50-100 yrs from now, a new football sanctioning body with its genesis in Europe or Asia starts a new football federation and proclaims that all previous Super Bowel winners are not legit because this new organization did not sanction them. That, in a nutshell, is what is going on here with the WPA.

For them to even remotely or vaguely imply that such storied champions such as Ralph Greenleaf, Frank Taberski, Jimmy Caras, Willie Mosconi, Joe Balsis, Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins, Earl Strickland & company have not earned their World Champion titles is an arrogant and totally disrespectful view to hold. How, pray tell, will they ever gain credibility and fan backing with such preposterous thinking?

If the powers that be at the WPA were really lovers and fans of our great sport, they would have a much higher regard for the sport's rich history and the great champions of the past.

Terry,

As I have said in another post too, I don't say that Mike Sigel, Bobby Hunter etc are not World Champions, because of tournament they won before WPA organized such tournaments.

I am thinking of the IPT World Championship, which Efren won, or the up and coming World 14-1 Championship that Grady says he will organize.

As long as there excist World Championships sanctioned by WPA they should be called World Championships. If another promoter organize such a tournament and calls it a World Championship, it is not, imo.

So again, I am not saying that Mike Sigel etc are not World Championships, since they played these WC before WPA started to host them.

But I am still very interested in information about those tournaments, who participated, why, etc..

Terry Ardeno
08-13-2008, 09:40 AM
For example, when Bobby Hunter became World Straight Pool Champion in 1990, did Europeans like Oliver Ortmann play?

I am just interested in how the events were organised. How many players? Where did they come from? How did they earn their spots in the field?

Once again, I agree that Bobby Hunter is a World 14-1 Champion. But if for example Grady now puts up another 14-1 tournament and calls it the World 14-1 Championships, as he has said he will do, will people look at it as a World Championship? If so, why?


Roy,
When Bobby Hunter won the 1990 MPBA World Open 14.1 Championship, Oliver Ortmann finished tied for 9th place, coincidently, with Grady Mathews.
Mizerak, Rempe, Allen Hopkins, Dick Lane, Claude Bernatchez and Mike Zuglan were some of the other participants.
It was held in Cleveland, Ohio.
The finals were Bobby Hunter beating Ray Martin 200-93. Hunter won $6,500 and Martin won $4,200.

Roy Steffensen
08-13-2008, 10:10 AM
Roy,
When Bobby Hunter won the 1990 MPBA World Open 14.1 Championship, Oliver Ortmann finished tied for 9th place, coincidently, with Grady Mathews.
Mizerak, Rempe, Allen Hopkins, Dick Lane, Claude Bernatchez and Mike Zuglan were some of the other participants.
It was held in Cleveland, Ohio.
The finals were Bobby Hunter beating Ray Martin 200-93. Hunter won $6,500 and Martin won $4,200.

Thanks Terry! Please share more information from tournaments from that period. I am very interested...

Nice payouts too, considering it was 20 years ago...

Blackjack
08-13-2008, 10:33 AM
David,
You're 100% right.

For example, the 1993 PBTA World 9 Ball Championship that was held in the Riviera Hotel's Monte Carlo Tower had 111 players playing race to 13, double elimination. When there were only 4 players left, it was changed to race to 11. It was open to any player in the world. Johnny Archer defeated Efren Reyes 11-7. Archer won $17,000 and Efren got $10,000 for 2nd place.

Among the other foreign players in that tournament were Francisco Bustamonte, Jose Parica, Rudolpho Luat, Luc Salvas and Junichi Koshigi (who ousted Nick Varner).

This was one of the earliest times that Diamond tables were used in a World Championship.

As a side note, the World Team Billiards finals as well as the Target Pool finals were held right after the tournament. Team Philippines beat team Puerto Rico, with Ireland being in 3rd place and team Germany in 4th place.

Thanks Terry!

If you get a chance, update this thread on the participation of European and Asian players for the 1990 World Championships that were held in Germany.

As far as 1993 - thanks for validating my other posts on the subject - you did leave out one bit of information.... the finals of the Target Pool Competition was Leonardo Andam against Kim Davenport - Leonardo was able to beat Kim at his own game.

As far as the World Team Billiards event - Team USA never made it past the preliminary rounds. They were beaten by Team Puerto Rico in Baltimore, Maryland.

Members of Team Germany, Team Puerto Rico, Team Ireland, Team Sweden, Team Philippines, etc etc competed in the 1993 PBT World 9 Ball Championships at the Riviera.

The year before the event was held in Taipei - and it was international event - as was the 1990 event in Bergheim, Germany where Earl defeated Jeff Carter in the final - and defended his title the next year in Las Vegas against Nick Varner in the final.

In 1989, Nick Varner defeated Grady Mathews in the finals to win the World Championship.

Tough fields and tough players from all around the world competed in these events, and the champions that won them deserve more respect from the morons at the WPA - who BTW wouldn't have their position if it were not for people such as Grady Mathews busting his ass and dedicating his entire life to promoting the game.

Terry Ardeno
08-13-2008, 10:51 AM
[QUOTE=Blackjack]Thanks Terry!

If you get a chance, update this thread on the participation of European and Asian players for the 1990 World Championships that were held in Germany.
QUOTE]


Blackjack,
The field for the first WPA World 9 Ball Championship included 10 American players, 13 European players and 9 Asian players.
Here's the payouts....
1. Earl Strickland ($17,500)
2. Jeff Carter
3. Nick Varner
4. Kim Davenport
5-8 Mike LeBron, Allen Hopkins, Johnny Archer, Steve Mizerak
9-16 Mike Sigel, Jim Mataya, Ralf Souquet, Takashi Toda, Kazuo Fujima, Oliver Ortmann, Thomas Engert, Vegar Kristiansen

Some of the other players were Takashi Okumura, Nickolas Bergendorf, Thomas Storm, Chang Chi Yao, Werner Duregger, Chen Chin Hsiung and Huang Chung Chien.

This event was held in Bergheim, West Germany.