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SpiderWebComm
08-12-2008, 05:04 AM
I posted this in the Houle thread, but many of you already know how to aim so you probably avoided the thread and missed the info...so I thought I'd copy it here.

Some might think this is extreme, but it isn't.... not at all. I spoke to Jerry from NYC Grind at the Million Dollar 9-ball and just seeing him reminded me to do a video of throwing your cue. I learned this from Nick Mannino nearly 10 years ago. I believe he picked this up from Gene Nagy. At the time, I couldn't incorporate it into my game because my stroke and aiming weren't up to snuff yet.

I use this technique all the time. Although I say you should only stay on the vertical axis of the CB while throwing, you don't have to at all. In fact, it's extremely effective for all shots. I mention vertical axis because I personally use it to cinch crucial shots. When used with Vitello's system or CTE, it removes the human element of b1tching your stroke. Can you b1tch your throw? I guess. Nerves make you tighten-up and turn your cue...making the CB squirt and voila... you miss like a loser.

Long straight-in shots a problem? Do you keep dogging crucial shots for your league team? Do you always dog money balls? You can't steer the cue or tighten-up when the cue is spearing straight through the CB.

Experiment with this... it's easy to learn and will make (save) you moolah.

http://www.poolvids.com/view/52/throwing-your-cue/

P.S. I never really thanked Nick for this because I was young and ignorant 10 years ago and didn't realize how strong this really is. So, if you're out there Nick....."thanks." :)

mullyman
08-12-2008, 05:16 AM
I do something similar to this when I'm teaching someone how to use inside english into the side pocket and spin the cue ball down table. (see diagram) The best way to get the action you want on the cue ball is to use the weight of the cue to move the CB forward rather than squirting out on the tangent line.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HRHR2IKKQ3PAKE4QCOL3cRHR2cdYB3kAKE3kPcc3kQae3kb FL1kKBs4lCOL3lPTd3laww1lTrq@

The red line represents a rough idea of what happens when you stroke this shot normally. The black line is what happens if you can get the weight of the cue to push through rather than bounce the cue ball off. Hard to put into words, wish I could make a video.

Only difference is that I choke up on the cue, release it, and catch it at the end.
MULLY

RiverCity
08-12-2008, 05:19 AM
Im sorry, but thats the most worthless advice I have ever seen in my entire freakin life.
Chuck

Scott Lee
08-12-2008, 06:07 AM
Chuck...Not exactly. Although I completely disagree with the OP's letting go of the cuestick, the concept is practical. The most pure stroke there is, is one that uses the weight of the cue, and perfect timing, to create the speed of the shot. The key is to have just the right amount of grip pressure, which is most easily produced (and repeated) with a perfect pendulum swing. I use this technique for EVERY shot...including the break!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Im sorry, but thats the most worthless advice I have ever seen in my entire freakin life.
Chuck

Bigjohn
08-12-2008, 07:00 AM
I posted this in the Houle thread, but many of you already know how to aim so you probably avoided the thread and missed the info...so I thought I'd copy it here.

Some might think this is extreme, but it isn't.... not at all. I spoke to Jerry from NYC Grind at the Million Dollar 9-ball and just seeing him reminded me to do a video of throwing your cue. I learned this from Nick Mannino nearly 10 years ago. I believe he picked this up from Gene Nagy. At the time, I couldn't incorporate it into my game because my stroke and aiming weren't up to snuff yet.

I use this technique all the time. Although I say you should only stay on the vertical axis of the CB while throwing, you don't have to at all. In fact, it's extremely effective for all shots. I mention vertical axis because I personally use it to cinch crucial shots. When used with Vitello's system or CTE, it removes the human element of b1tching your stroke. Can you b1tch your throw? I guess. Nerves make you tighten-up and turn your cue...making the CB squirt and voila... you miss like a loser.

Long straight-in shots a problem? Do you keep dogging crucial shots for your league team? Do you always dog money balls? You can't steer the cue or tighten-up when the cue is spearing straight through the CB.

Experiment with this... it's easy to learn and will make (save) you moolah.

http://www.poolvids.com/view/52/throwing-your-cue/

P.S. I never really thanked Nick for this because I was young and ignorant 10 years ago and didn't realize how strong this really is. So, if you're out there Nick....."thanks." :)

There is NO way I would abuse my table, cloth or cue with this!

3andstop
08-12-2008, 07:18 AM
Im sorry, but thats the most worthless advice I have ever seen in my entire freakin life.
Chuck

Well Scott, I usually agree with you :) and if you are talking about a slight slip stroke, we still agree on that. But ... RiverCity, LMAO ..... yep someone is gonna have to go some to out do that one.

(not to mention the "beotch" reference. LOL, Be careful you don't end up getting beotch slapped from some of the fine female players who may take offense to that connotation.)

Flex
08-12-2008, 07:30 AM
There is NO way I would abuse my table, cloth or cue with this!

I'm not into abusing anything. However, my cue has it's share of dings that come about when cracking cues with my opponent, when I'm focused on the lay of the table and crack the butt on the corner of the table, when I'm getting really down on the shot and and stroking probably 1/8" off the rail and manage to rap my knuckles on the rail, or when the pendulum drops and bangs the grip area of the cue into the rail. However, those are all unintentional bumps. All those unintentional bumps and dings are one reason I don't shoot with a really expensive cue. Dinging up a $2000 cue would mess with my mind.

What David is showing in the video is simply a technique for the cue to go positively straight forward. It works.

Whether or not one actually throws the cue as he does in the video is another thing; however, the technique works. It often happens that the cue slips in my hold too, and it sure does result in a straight stroke. Sometimes it comes out of my hand, and that is an unpleasant feeling when it is unintentional.

I once mentioned to Mark Wilson that I noticed that sometimes I do it, unconsciously. He didn't say anything about it, either positive or negative. I wonder why?

Flex

SpiderWebComm
08-12-2008, 07:31 AM
I know this isn't for everyone, but worthless it's not, LOL. Many of you aren't aware that top players release the cue through impact-- which is why I made the video. I know Scott says he releases and catches... which is more common. I just drop it so I don't worry about the catch. Catching it has nothing to do with the outcome, so I eliminate it.

Gene Nagy used to do this, and he was a 400 ball runner. BTW, it doesn't abuse the cue/table at all. There are no marks on my table.

I'm not here trying to convince anyone-- as far as this goes... "this is what it is." To say it's worthless means you never turn your cue through impact...which, we all know you do.

FYI--- I was just trying to be funny with "b1tching the shot." Just a little comedy relief. There are no female players going to be offended, believe me. If I offended you, put me on your ignore list--- I wouldn't wanna do it again :)

Flex
08-12-2008, 07:32 AM
Great post and video. I tried to give you some Rep but the system wouldn't let me.

Flex

I posted this in the Houle thread, but many of you already know how to aim so you probably avoided the thread and missed the info...so I thought I'd copy it here.

Some might think this is extreme, but it isn't.... not at all. I spoke to Jerry from NYC Grind at the Million Dollar 9-ball and just seeing him reminded me to do a video of throwing your cue. I learned this from Nick Mannino nearly 10 years ago. I believe he picked this up from Gene Nagy. At the time, I couldn't incorporate it into my game because my stroke and aiming weren't up to snuff yet.

I use this technique all the time. Although I say you should only stay on the vertical axis of the CB while throwing, you don't have to at all. In fact, it's extremely effective for all shots. I mention vertical axis because I personally use it to cinch crucial shots. When used with Vitello's system or CTE, it removes the human element of b1tching your stroke. Can you b1tch your throw? I guess. Nerves make you tighten-up and turn your cue...making the CB squirt and voila... you miss like a loser.

Long straight-in shots a problem? Do you keep dogging crucial shots for your league team? Do you always dog money balls? You can't steer the cue or tighten-up when the cue is spearing straight through the CB.

Experiment with this... it's easy to learn and will make (save) you moolah.

http://www.poolvids.com/view/52/throwing-your-cue/

P.S. I never really thanked Nick for this because I was young and ignorant 10 years ago and didn't realize how strong this really is. So, if you're out there Nick....."thanks." :)

Scott Lee
08-12-2008, 07:42 AM
Dave...I beg to differ. I do NOT "release and catch" my cue. My cue NEVER slips or slides in my grip hand. I use a very light grip, and finish my stroke...that's all. I do, however, talk about the concept of "throwing the cue", without letting go of the cue...which is completely different from what you're doing in your video.:D

I know Scott says he releases and catches... which is more common.

SpiderWebComm
08-12-2008, 07:44 AM
Dave...I beg to differ. I do NOT "release and catch" my cue. My cue NEVER slips or slides in my grip hand. I use a very light grip, and finish my stroke...that's all. I do, however, talk about the concept of "throwing the cue", without letting go of the cue...which is completely different from what you're doing in your video.:D


Sorry, Scott-- I just misread your original post.

I have a question...why would you want to worry about catching it? Just curious. I think it adds an additional swing thought. Your thoughts?

Roy Steffensen
08-12-2008, 07:49 AM
Well, I am pretty sure that if you enter a for you unknown poolhall and shoot like that, throwing your cue without catching, you will definitely be contacted by someone willing to give you the 5 and 7 :D Especially if you miss some balls on purpose too!

I know about the technique "release and catch", but have never seen this before. And to be honest, I don't even want to try it...

SpiderWebComm
08-12-2008, 07:58 AM
Hey...Roy....

Love the avatar, man.

I started the video by saying it's non-traditional. Not a lot of people are up to speed with the release/drop. Just wanted to open some eyes.

I'd bet my grandmother's Depends that someone on this board checked the video and solved a problem of theirs if they actually tried it. All I know is if I have to do something crucial under massive pressure... my best odds are releasing the cue. May not be everything "thing" baybay, but it's a pill I love to swallow.

Roy Steffensen
08-12-2008, 08:19 AM
Hei spider, sorry I can't say the same about your avatar :D :D :D :D

I looked at your video, and I was surprised by the results of your shots. I might try it, but I doubt I will feel comfortable shooting like that, and if I don't feel comfortable, well, then I shouldn't do it.

SpiderWebComm
08-12-2008, 08:24 AM
Hei spider, sorry I can't say the same about your avatar :D :D :D :D

I looked at your video, and I was surprised by the results of your shots. I might try it, but I doubt I will feel comfortable shooting like that, and if I don't feel comfortable, well, then I shouldn't do it.

I'm so comfortable doing it, I'm surprised I don't pass out. Give it a go.

I think I need to re-do my avatar. Everyone else's can spot mine the thong-and-out.

grindz
08-12-2008, 09:21 AM
I personally just ad the thought and physically "lighten" my grip on those long or difficult key shots. But, I'll give it some practice and modify to the next step of taking it to a slip stroke just to see if it is effective.

I'm not sure why you would take it past the slip stroke and actually drop your cue though. It seems like the activity of dropping your cue may involve more complicated muscle action than the slip stroke would. Besides that my cue is a piece of my arm after over 25 years, and I would never treat my arm that way. :eek:

Giving it a try today.................

td

Was that you on the TAR mike at the MSO? If it was ...nice job.

SpiderWebComm
08-12-2008, 09:37 AM
I personally just ad the thought and physically "lighten" my grip on those long or difficult key shots. But, I'll give it some practice and modify to the next step of taking it to a slip stroke just to see if it is effective.

I'm not sure why you would take it past the slip stroke and actually drop your cue though. It seems like the activity of dropping your cue may involve more complicated muscle action than the slip stroke would. Besides that my cue is a piece of my arm after over 25 years, and I would never treat my arm that way. :eek:

Giving it a try today.................

td

Was that you on the TAR mike at the MSO? If it was ...nice job.

Humor me, drop it one time. Drop it like it's hot. What's MSO? I was at the Million Dollar 9ball and I was on the mic at times. They try to keep me off until after 9pm, though :) I prefer an adult audience.

Thanks!

Scott Lee
08-12-2008, 09:51 AM
Dave...I personally see no benefit in letting go of the cue at all! A genuinely loose grip, and a 'full-range-of motion' pendulum swing, is all that's required (IMO), to develop a perfect stroke! As you know, I teach that once you understand what your natural range of motion is (according to how your arm works with your body), the cuetip goes to the same place on every shot (including the break). There need not be different lengths of followthrough for different SOP shots (with the exception of what we call XOP shots... those where your normal bridge and normal finish are restricted...such as shooting over a ball, or when the CB & OB are close together). That eliminates a lot of variables that cause people to miss!

BTW...I surmise that grindz "MSO", means Million dollar Shoot Out!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Sorry, Scott-- I just misread your original post.

I have a question...why would you want to worry about catching it? Just curious. I think it adds an additional swing thought. Your thoughts?

Bigjohn
08-12-2008, 09:56 AM
Humor me, drop it one time. Drop it like it's hot. What's MSO? I was at the Million Dollar 9ball and I was on the mic at times. They try to keep me off until after 9pm, though :) I prefer an adult audience.

Thanks!

If I had a room and caught you performing this abuse on my table... I'd throw you right out!:eek:

Big C
08-12-2008, 09:59 AM
Im sorry, but thats the most worthless advice I have ever seen in my entire freakin life.
ChuckIf this was the most worthless advice you have ever seen, then you must have been born last night.:grin: I'll just quote you something I learned in pool school that just may help you. ""It's what we learn (after we know it all) that counts". -John Wooden
"If you continue to do what you've always done, you will get what you've always gotten". -Kimmie Meisner

Beware_of_Dawg
08-12-2008, 10:01 AM
maybe consider putting a small piece of foam padding on the butt of your cue, like a piece of that pipe insulation.

SpiderWebComm
08-12-2008, 10:02 AM
If I had a room and caught you performing this abuse on my table... I'd throw you right out!:eek:


Dude, it's so not abuse. You might as well kick out all the kids trying jump shots, masses, everyone jacking up, and everyone who doesn't use a break-pad.

My table doesn't have 1 mark on it from dropping... not one. The head string, however, is marred with break marks. The cue drops about 1"... you damage the table more by dropping balls into the rack from the ball-well.

Dave

Scott Lee
08-12-2008, 10:06 AM
Amen Big C...and then there's the ULTIMATE quote from Oz..."They don't know what they don't know!"...which is, of course, WHY you came to pool school. Now, at least, you KNOW what you don't know, and, more importantly, how to fix it! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I'll just quote you something I learned in pool school that just may help you. ""It's what we learn (after we know it all) that counts". -John Wooden
"If you continue to do what you've always done, you will get what you've always gotten". -Kimmie Meisner

Tin Man
08-12-2008, 10:11 AM
I occasionally do the 'catch and release'. It is occasional and so subconcious that I couldn't even tell you which shots I do it on.

I don't think that it is any different from a very loose grip. Bottom line is that you are not using any muscle from your arm or wrist to the cue, just letting the pendulum swing do the work like Scott says. The only difference is that your hand is so loose that the cue slides through the grip after reaching top speed. If done correctly I don't think that it is harmful, but just know that it is the good stroke and timing that is effective, not a momentary release of the stick.

By the way, I really don't like dropping the cue like in the video. Besides, what if there were balls that you are shooting over???

Bigjohn
08-12-2008, 10:39 AM
Dude, it's so not abuse. You might as well kick out all the kids trying jump shots, masses, everyone jacking up, and everyone who doesn't use a break-pad.

My table doesn't have 1 mark on it from dropping... not one. The head string, however, is marred with break marks. The cue drops about 1"... you damage the table more by dropping balls into the rack from the ball-well.

Dave

The room owners I know would not tollerate this on their tables. You might want to add: " Try this only at home on your own table "

Beware_of_Dawg
08-12-2008, 11:06 AM
not to be critical of this technique of yours but why does this make any sense? your actually letting go of the cue after the tip makes contact with the cueball and the cueball is gone well before you completely release the cue. so it should have no effect what so ever on the shot right? I can see that knowing your going to release the cue would tend to help you hold the cue softly but I can't see any benefit to the actual outcome of the shot?

Scott Lee
08-12-2008, 11:12 AM
Beware_of_Dawg...Correctamundo, Sir (actually BEFORE you can even let go of the cue)! Ding, ding, ding...we have a WINNER!:thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

your actually letting go of the cue after the tip makes contact with the cueball and the cueball is gone well before you completely release the cue. so it should have no effect what so ever on the shot right? I can see that knowing your going to release the cue would tend to help you hold the cue softly but I can't see any benefit to the actual outcome of the shot?

fan-tum
08-12-2008, 11:46 AM
I posted this in the Houle thread, but many of you already know how to aim so you probably avoided the thread and missed the info...so I thought I'd copy it here.

Some might think this is extreme, but it isn't.... not at all. I spoke to Jerry from NYC Grind at the Million Dollar 9-ball and just seeing him reminded me to do a video of throwing your cue. I learned this from Nick Mannino nearly 10 years ago. I believe he picked this up from Gene Nagy. At the time, I couldn't incorporate it into my game because my stroke and aiming weren't up to snuff yet.

I use this technique all the time. Although I say you should only stay on the vertical axis of the CB while throwing, you don't have to at all. In fact, it's extremely effective for all shots. I mention vertical axis because I personally use it to cinch crucial shots. When used with Vitello's system or CTE, it removes the human element of b1tching your stroke. Can you b1tch your throw? I guess. Nerves make you tighten-up and turn your cue...making the CB squirt and voila... you miss like a loser.

Long straight-in shots a problem? Do you keep dogging crucial shots for your league team? Do you always dog money balls? You can't steer the cue or tighten-up when the cue is spearing straight through the CB.

Experiment with this... it's easy to learn and will make (save) you moolah.

http://www.poolvids.com/view/52/throwing-your-cue/

P.S. I never really thanked Nick for this because I was young and ignorant 10 years ago and didn't realize how strong this really is. So, if you're out there Nick....."thanks." :)
Just to clarify: when you "throw" the cue, does the tip contact the o.b. at the very end of the thrown travel or somewhere towards the midpoint of it? I've tried this method before, and while it feels very natural, I don't seem to pot any better.

Big C
08-12-2008, 11:48 AM
not to be critical of this technique of yours but why does this make any sense? your actually letting go of the cue after the tip makes contact with the cueball and the cueball is gone well before you completely release the cue. so it should have no effect what so ever on the shot right? I can see that knowing your going to release the cue would tend to help you hold the cue softly but I can't see any benefit to the actual outcome of the shot?You don't actually have to let the cue come out of your hand. The releasing of the cue is just the result of the extreme throwing motion. The point of the exercise, as I see it, is to get the back hand relaxed enough so that it does not twist the cue. One of the great stroke robbers is the HD grip, AKA Hand of Death. There are others as well.

Fatboy
08-12-2008, 11:52 AM
looks good to me, the rock followed the OB in to the hole everytime, or on the last draw whot he sucked the rok back into the pocket he was standing over.

when I was a C player i spent alot of $$$ trying to steer the CB and dogged the easiest $$$ balls ever, I'm gonna get out a banged up cue and play with this, had I not seen the video I would have disreagrded it as rubbish, but I like Dave alot and the video didnt lie, and he isrght about a second thind I'm do ing that with a Bushka...

thomba02
08-12-2008, 11:57 AM
the only time i throw my cue is when i'm pissed

AtLarge
08-12-2008, 12:04 PM
Scott Lee and Beware of Dawg: you seem to believe that what Dave is talking about is releasing the cue AFTER it has struck the cue ball. No. I believe he is talking about releasing the cue BEFORE it strikes the cue ball.

What Dave is demonstrating has a lot of validity, although it is not necessary to take it to the extreme of dropping the stick on the table. The purpose, as he says, is to maximize the chances of not jerking or turning the stick as the ball is struck.

Anyone who has had a lesson with Jerry Briesath will probably remember one of his favorite questions: "What is a pool stroke?" After the student fumbles around for a bit, Jerry answers that a pool stroke should be a perfect throwing motion. Jerry doesn't take it to the point of releasing the cue, but that is the natural extension of his definition. Have you ever thrown anything without releasing it?

I began experimenting with this technique many years ago after watching Efren Reyes. I don't know whether he is still doing it, but at that time, on many shots, at the instant when the cue stick struck the cue ball Efren's grip hand had NO pressure on the stick. The stick was merely slipping through his grip hand. I guess this is called "release and catch." It is different from a "slip stroke," a term usually meant to describe the grip hand slipping back on the butt BEFORE the forward stroke.

So Dave's demonstration is not crazy, although it is not essential to completely drop the stick (that part could be highly undesirable if other balls could be disturbed). The practice has a long history with some pretty good players.

SpiderWebComm
08-12-2008, 12:21 PM
You don't actually have to let the cue come out of your hand. The releasing of the cue is just the result of the extreme throwing motion. The point of the exercise, as I see it, is to get the back hand relaxed enough so that it does not twist the cue. One of the great stroke robbers is the HD grip, AKA Hand of Death. There are others as well.

Bingo. I've seen people release and catch and still steer.

recanizegame
08-12-2008, 12:30 PM
Nice post Spider keep em coming. It's the people that pay attention and learn from these unconventional concepts and keep an open mind about things are the ones who improve in the long run. People have to learn to take things for more than face value. I wouldn't worry to much about the whiners on here, thats one reason I hardly post...

Beware_of_Dawg
08-12-2008, 01:10 PM
question then....

starting with the idea that your arm is at the ideal 90* angle when the tip makes contact with the cuebal and that the tip and the CB & tip stay in contact for some tiny fraction of a fraction of a second.. l are you proposing that he releases the cue stick before his stroke arm reaches that 90* therefore realeasing it on the "downstroke"?

I don't think that could be and would introduce a number of new viarable which would render that shot inconsistant and highly unreliable. As witnessed in the video, he was able to perform that stroke (as most can) with a high degree of consistancy... begging the conclusion that at best he releases the cue at exactly 90* again introducing fractions of fractions of spilt seconds that high grip hand is not in contact with the cuestick before contact with the tip/CB and that's at VERY VERY best. more than likely he is releasing simultaniously at very best with the error going on the past 90* degree side, after the fact. That is the only way that you could perform this consistantly.

Again, I see the value in this technique as a way to trick your mind to hold the cue softly perhaps or relax your grip hand at contact.

I am no expert nor do I claim to be but the physics have to be scrutinized to be reccognized as valid. No?

SpiderWebComm
08-12-2008, 01:25 PM
question then....

starting with the idea that your arm is at the ideal 90* angle when the tip makes contact with the cuebal and that the tip and the CB & tip stay in contact for some tiny fraction of a fraction of a second.. l are you proposing that he releases the cue stick before his stroke arm reaches that 90* therefore realeasing it on the "downstroke"?

I don't think that could be and would introduce a number of new viarable which would render that shot inconsistant and highly unreliable. As witnessed in the video, he was able to perform that stroke (as most can) with a high degree of consistancy... begging the conclusion that at best he releases the cue at exactly 90* again introducing fractions of fractions of spilt seconds that high grip hand is not in contact with the cuestick before contact with the tip/CB and that's at VERY VERY best. more than likely he is releasing simultaniously at very best with the error going on the past 90* degree side, after the fact. That is the only way that you could perform this consistantly.

Again, I see the value in this technique as a way to trick your mind to hold the cue softly perhaps or relax your grip hand at contact.

I am no expert nor do I claim to be but the physics have to be scrutinized to be reccognized as valid. No?

Beware of Dog--

I know for a fact I'm releasing before contact.... no doubt in my mind. The purpose for me posting this is it might be the most reliable way of pocketing under pressure I have found over the years. If I didn't think that, I wouldn't have posted it--- obviously.

You make a valid point--- and I don't mind anyone scrutinizing it. I'm one of the few people who post videos of themselves on here for one reason.... I can "take" it like the best of 'em.... pretty thick skin.

Your bridge is crucial with this technique as it stabilizes the cue after the release. I'm sure the tip rises slightly after release, but I don't really care because it's spearing straight. The speed of my stroke nearly eliminates the variable... by the time my tip lifts slightly, the shot's already over.

If I had to draw a CB back into the pocket or follow it into a pocket for my life, I'd release the cue...but that's only me. Meaning, if I HAVE to make a ball and there are no balls in the way.... I like the move. Like the favorite AZB saying goes different strokes for different folks, right?

A good test for this is Kinister's Shot #1. MANY people dog that shot to death on a 9' table. When I'm loose, I can spear that CB and replace it with a high %. If someone told you to replace that shot for $100 - could you do it? Test yourself next time you're at a table. Hey, not saying I can at "will" --- it's a tough shot to execute "the right way." I'm saying my success rate is higher. If I take that bet, for whatever reason, the cue's flying.

Fatboy
08-12-2008, 01:26 PM
well I tried this and Dave owes me 2 Bushkas, 1 Gus, and 1 McDermott. But since were friends I'll let him slide on the McDermott. anybody want to buy a rare 5 piece Gus or 2 4-piece Bushkas?

crawfish
08-12-2008, 01:31 PM
Bingo. I've seen people release and catch and still steer.
I have to say, I believe I do that. Now that I understand what you meant by catching and releasing.

Beware_of_Dawg
08-12-2008, 01:47 PM
Beware of Dog--

You make a valid point--- and I don't mind anyone scrutinizing it. I'm one of the few people who post videos of themselves on here for one reason.... I can "take" it like the best of 'em.... pretty thick skin.

Meaning, if I HAVE to make a ball and there are no balls in the way.... I like the move. Like the favorite AZB saying goes different strokes for different folks, right?

A good test for this is Kinister's Shot #1. MANY people dog that shot to death on a 9' table. .

I'm not critizing you, your video or your exercise. Simply discussing it brother. Not argueing, protesting, etc, etc... Never get me wrong, That's not how I roll. I'm just trying to have a intelligent, semi informed conversation with another pool enthusiast. and if we were face to face having this talk, i would be using my "inside voice" lol.

I appreciate your contributions, video and efforts.

I don't know what Kinister Shot #1 is. Care to share?

Oh, and BTW it's just Dawg, or Dave. No need to beware.

~D4\/\/G~

Roy Steffensen
08-12-2008, 01:55 PM
Spider: your avatar improved 100 % ;)

daveb
08-12-2008, 01:57 PM
Boy! I'd hate to be a beginner reading through this stuff and trying to figure out what's legitimate and what's bogus instructional advice. :P

Scott Lee
08-12-2008, 02:06 PM
Dave...I'll take you up on that bet...at $100 a shot. We'll set it up on YOUR table, and record it to dvd, so we can analyze it in slow-motion, stop-action. I'll know I'll come away with the cash, because not even Kinister can make that 'replacement' shot exactly accurate anywhere NEAR what he claims in his video (we'll use hole reinforcements and a laser to create a perfectly straight line, 4 diamonds between the CB & OB). Better start practicing buddy! :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

A good test for this is Kinister's Shot #1. When I'm loose, I can spear that CB and replace it with a high %. If someone told you to replace that shot for $100 - could you do it? Test yourself next time you're at a table. Hey, not saying I can at "will" --- it's a tough shot to execute "the right way." I'm saying my success rate is higher. If I take that bet, for whatever reason, the cue's flying.

DJKeys
08-12-2008, 03:17 PM
Dave...I beg to differ. I do NOT "release and catch" my cue. My cue NEVER slips or slides in my grip hand. I use a very light grip, and finish my stroke...that's all. I do, however, talk about the concept of "throwing the cue", without letting go of the cue...which is completely different from what you're doing in your video.:D

Scott-

I remember in Vegas when you gave me that advice. I used to let the cue slide sometimes in my hand, and your video showed it clearly. It is amazing how that one single piece of information that you gave me, namely the arm being perpendicular to the ground at CB contact, can make such a big difference. Mosconi and Jimmy Moore both had slip strokes, but the concept is to get the same result without losing the cue.

coryjeb
08-12-2008, 03:29 PM
While not to the extreme in the video, when I am in dead stroke there is definately a slight "slip" in my stroke. I maintain very light grip pressure all of the time, or try to at least, and the "slip" while small, feels very natural and always under control. Rep to you, good topic.

Pushout
08-12-2008, 03:29 PM
I remember a guy showing me and the room owner this kind of thing about 30 or so years ago. He was describing the stroke to be a "throwing motion". I've never heard of it in regard to cinching shots, though. Interesting, I'll have to try it.

Fatboy
08-12-2008, 03:46 PM
Spider: your avatar improved 100 % ;)


i agree 100%


Also Roy I like your line about the bangers and pro's its so ture on many levels, I have been using it lately when i'm talking pool, I like your avitar as well.

Scott Lee
08-12-2008, 03:52 PM
DJ...Glad I could help you! :grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott-

I remember in Vegas when you gave me that advice. I used to let the cue slide sometimes in my hand, and your video showed it clearly. It is amazing how that one single piece of information that you gave me, namely the arm being perpendicular to the ground at CB contact, can make such a big difference. Mosconi and Jimmy Moore both had slip strokes, but the concept is to get the same result without losing the cue.

JoeyInCali
08-12-2008, 05:32 PM
DJ...Glad I could help you! :grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott, which one is straighter?
Slipping the cue or your salute stroke?
I've come to the conclusion by aiming the salute to the line of the shot is the best way of shooting as straight as possible.

Scott Lee
08-12-2008, 06:17 PM
Joey...The 'salute' stroke, aka the pure pendulum swing, is a better choice, imo. Easier to develop, and more accurate and repeatable! On the instructional video, we call it "finishing your stroke, according to your personal shooting template"!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott, which one is straighter?
Slipping the cue or your salute stroke?
I've come to the conclusion by aiming the salute to the line of the shot is the best way of shooting as straight as possible.

SpiderWebComm
08-12-2008, 06:26 PM
I'm not critizing you, your video or your exercise. Simply discussing it brother. Not argueing, protesting, etc, etc... Never get me wrong, That's not how I roll. I'm just trying to have a intelligent, semi informed conversation with another pool enthusiast. and if we were face to face having this talk, i would be using my "inside voice" lol.

I appreciate your contributions, video and efforts.

I don't know what Kinister Shot #1 is. Care to share?

Oh, and BTW it's just Dawg, or Dave. No need to beware.

~D4\/\/G~

Dawg-

You're the nuts. I promise my tone was cool during my last post to you. I was in "work mode" at work when I typed it. Sorry if I came across too business-like!

Shot #1 is the OB about a ball or two off the rail on the second diamond from the corner pocket, the CB on the 2nd diamond near the other corner pocket on the same side of the table. You make the OB and "replace" it with the CB. Upon impact, the CB makes a 1/2 revolution and creeps forward 2 inches.

Dave

SpiderWebComm
08-12-2008, 06:27 PM
Spider: your avatar improved 100 % ;)

Roy:

I changed it for you, brother.

Dave

SpiderWebComm
08-12-2008, 06:36 PM
Dave...I'll take you up on that bet...at $100 a shot. We'll set it up on YOUR table, and record it to dvd, so we can analyze it in slow-motion, stop-action. I'll know I'll come away with the cash, because not even Kinister can make that 'replacement' shot exactly accurate anywhere NEAR what he claims in his video (we'll use hole reinforcements and a laser to create a perfectly straight line, 4 diamonds between the CB & OB). Better start practicing buddy! :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

If I'm clicking right, you and I can take turns on the shot for $100. Start practicing buddy! That way, nerves come into play for both of us. No free sweat action on a tough shot when the nerves increase for one-side only when a failed shot occurs (more than 1 ball forward roll, stop shots no good). If you recall, I mentioned in that post I wasn't saying I shoot that at will.... no one does. I just said I shoot it at a pretty good % when I'm in stroke.

Scott, I love ya man. I'd never gamble with you. Good for you with this post, you're support to say that if someone is stupid enough for 1-sided action. Each mess up makes the shot 10x harder, progressively. Equal action makes it good action, however.

PKM
08-12-2008, 07:11 PM
Well unlike the aiming brouhaha, you can't argue about what you're doing there. You've got a nice straight stroke for sure!

Scott Lee
08-12-2008, 07:22 PM
Dave...I'll pass, thanks! At that distance, to play a PERFECT replacement shot (no movement forwards, backwards, or sideways) is low percentage for almost anybody. From 2 diamonds, though, you got a bet (however, we'll bet something practical...like best of 10 tries for dinner!)! :D I don't need to practice...I demonstrate that shot daily...both to show how difficult it is, and also how impractical it is, from long distances...just like the "super draw" shots that have been posted recently! These kinds of shots come up rarely in a game, and imo, it's much more important, and practical, to be able to perfectly execute a PERFECT stop shot (from any distance), and to be able to draw the CB 6" to 3', rather than 12'-15'!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

If I'm clicking right, you and I can take turns on the shot for $100. Start practicing buddy! That way, nerves come into play for both of us. No free sweat action on a tough shot when the nerves increase for one-side only when a failed shot occurs (more than 1 ball forward roll, stop shots no good). If you recall, I mentioned in that post I wasn't saying I shoot that at will.... no one does. I just said I shoot it at a pretty good % when I'm in stroke.

Scott, I love ya man. I'd never gamble with you. Good for you with this post, you're support to say that if someone is stupid enough for 1-sided action. Each mess up makes the shot 10x harder, progressively. Equal action makes it good action, however.

bells
08-12-2008, 07:35 PM
Dave...I personally see no benefit in letting go of the cue at all! A genuinely loose grip, and a 'full-range-of motion' pendulum swing, is all that's required (IMO), to develop a perfect stroke! As you know, I teach that once you understand what your natural range of motion is (according to how your arm works with your body), the cuetip goes to the same place on every shot (including the break). There need not be different lengths of followthrough for different SOP shots (with the exception of what we call XOP shots... those where your normal bridge and normal finish are restricted...such as shooting over a ball, or when the CB & OB are close together). That eliminates a lot of variables that cause people to miss!

BTW...I surmise that grindz "MSO", means Million dollar Shoot Out!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
I find that a loose grip gets more action on the cueball and the object ball has less energy. The same exact shot with a tighter grip has the reverse effect. With a tighter grip the cueball seems to travel less and the object ball seems to have more energy. All variables being the same on the shots ..............just a different amount of grip pressure.

RiverCity
08-12-2008, 09:20 PM
The original post was about throwing and dropping the cue, not about a slip stroke.
Throwing a cue through the cue ball before or after letting go of the cue is nonsense. It has little to no benefit to consistently pocketing balls. It is a joke as far as advice goes when compared to practicing and obtaining a correct and repeatable pendulum type stroke. Adding a "release" to the stroking motion just adds one more thing to control and one more way for the cue to go off the intended line of aim. Just as the release is a MAJOR component in throwing a ball, throwing a dart, etc.
IMO if you have a straight stroke, but are steering at the end on some shots, the issue is in your mental game. Not in the stroke itself.
Chuck
BTW Iceman Nagy could run 400 anyway he chose because of immense talent and skill, not because of a circus act stroke he may have used occasionally.

cleary
08-12-2008, 10:08 PM
I use a slip stoke a lot. Especially with my break. For me, its the straightest way to stroke through the cue ball. But I cannot for the life of me see how not catching the cue would improve the stroke. Its not even that I catch the cue, it just naturally falls into my hand and catching takes no thought at all.

mullyman
08-13-2008, 02:18 AM
Not to change the subject but I see no reason to start a whole different thread so here goes.

Iw as watching your video about reflection banking. When you said the right side of the CB reflection to the center of the OB reflection is this what you meant?
Sorry for the poor graphics. The lines of course are supposed to be the light reflection off the balls.
MULLY
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/7443/bankshotld9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/7443/bankshotld9.6ca08554c7.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=519&i=bankshotld9.jpg)

Jason Robichaud
08-13-2008, 02:48 AM
I am going to say throw the cue a little harder and aim for the garbage. You shouldn't own a cue or play pool. I have no idea what has been posted about this, but I can only hope everyone finds it strange... crazy '*****' strange... For anyone agreeing with this, I can arrange 1800 got junk to go around and gather the cues, just pick up the CB and roll it. A CB can only roll in a straight line (if you roll on vertical axis).

Man this site is getting hard to read lately. Throwing cues to shoot straighter??? Next!

mullyman
08-13-2008, 03:01 AM
I am going to say throw the cue a little harder and aim for the garbage. You shouldn't own a cue or play pool. I have no idea what has been posted about this, but I can only hope everyone finds it strange... crazy '*****' strange... For anyone agreeing with this, I can arrange 1800 got junk to go around and gather the cues, just pick up the CB and roll it. A CB can only roll in a straight line (if you roll on vertical axis).

Man this site is getting hard to read lately. Throwing cues to shoot straighter??? Next!


I take it you don't agree with this. Say what's on your mind, for God's sake. Stop sugar coating everything.
MULLY

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 04:16 AM
Jason and RiverCity:

The technique is far older than I am alive. It's not mine....yes, it's a real technique. Just because you've never been exposed to it doesn't mean it's garbage.

I don't post garbage info---- non-traditional, yes, garbage...no. This technique produces straighter results than a release and catch, in my opinion, otherwise.... I'd post about release and catching.

It's cool you're not into it....to each their own. Relax--- don't be so militant.

IF you think it's shit, create a video proving it. I'll create a video of stroke shots with it that'll make your head spin.

Dave

RiverCity
08-13-2008, 04:38 AM
Jason and RiverCity:

The technique is far older than I am alive. It's not mine....yes, it's a real technique. Just because you've never been exposed to it doesn't mean it's garbage.

I don't post garbage info---- non-traditional, yes, garbage...no. This technique produces straighter results than a release and catch, in my opinion, otherwise.... I'd post about release and catching.

It's cool you're not into it....to each their own. Relax--- don't be so militant.

IF you think it's shit, create a video proving it. I'll create a video of stroke shots with it that'll make your head spin.

Dave
Ive been exposed to plenty of bad ideas in my lifetime Old. New. Doesnt matter, bad ideas dont know or care what year it is. IMO it is in fact garbarge as opposed to a REGULAR STROKE, (I dont advocate a slip stroke either). Otherwise every professional pool player, every short stop etc etc etc etc would be doing it on every hard shot. That in itself is proof enough, no video needed from me there.
If it helps YOU, good, Im happy for you. To each his own is exactly right. But dont post it like it is THE way to stroke a cue on a hard shot.
Chuck~~~not being militant, being honest
ps Post some stroke shot videos, Ill post some too! Stroke shots are good entertainment. :D

nthamix
08-13-2008, 04:39 AM
Well, I have never seen anything like this before, very different I must say. If this technique will help me to NOT b1tch shot the long straigt in money ball, I will give it a try. Thanks for the video...

B.

Snapshot9
08-13-2008, 04:45 AM
if you have good stroke mechanics to begin with, there is not a need for a release and catch stroke or a throw stroke. These 2 are nothing more than a band aid for a bad stroke to begin with. They are gimmicks.

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 05:25 AM
I need to get this conversation back to center. Although releasing the cue could be used for nearly every shot, it's not what I advertised. It helps you stroke straighter under extreme pressure. STROKE MECHANICS HAVE ZERO TO DO WITH DOGGING/TURNING YOUR CUE UNDER PRESSURE (that's mental, not mechanical).

The best players in the universe who have perfect stroke mechanics puke on themselves and miss shots they normally wouldn't for the cash or for a historic event.

Now, based on the some of the other posters, they never dog anything. If you stroke straight - that doesn't mean you don't dog. Personally, I don't like the term "garbage" information. It wasn't Nagy's "CIRCUS STROKE".... personally, I don't think anything that guy did was circus-like or garbage-like. I don't think he invented it--- he learned it from someone else, liked it... and incorporated it into his game....and ran who knows how many 150/200/300/350+ packs with it. If the technique was a joke, you could have spotted the man, right?

Let people try it on their own and determine for themselves--- which is why I made the video. Like I said.... go ahead and post some videos of yourself so we can check out what you're doing right. :)

RiverCity
08-13-2008, 05:42 AM
I need to get this conversation back to center. Although releasing the cue could be used for nearly every shot, it's not what I advertised. It helps you stroke straighter under extreme pressure. STROKE MECHANICS HAVE ZERO TO DO WITH DOGGING/TURNING YOUR CUE UNDER PRESSURE (that's mental, not mechanical).

The best players in the universe who have perfect stroke mechanics puke on themselves and miss shots they normally wouldn't for the cash or for a historic event.

Now, based on the some of the other posters, they never dog anything. If you stroke straight - that doesn't mean you don't dog. Personally, I don't like the term "garbage" information. It wasn't Nagy's "CIRCUS STROKE".... personally, I don't think anything that guy did was circus-like or garbage-like. I don't think he invented it--- he learned it from someone else, liked it... and incorporated it into his game....and ran who knows how many 150/200/300/350+ packs with it. If the technique was a joke, you could have spotted the man, right?

Let people try it on their own and determine for themselves--- which is why I made the video. Like I said.... go ahead and post some videos of yourself so we can check out what you're doing right. :)

Dave, you seem to be the one getting militant.
Dropping your cue as you stroke the ball is trash. 99 out of 100 instructors will tell you the same thing. Defend it all you want, its not a worthwhile thing to do, or all the pros would be doing it.
Taking an eccentricity of one pro level player and saying its the best thing since sliced bread is ludicrous.
As far as I go, I have posted videos on this very site.
http://www.youtube.com/dashark
http://www.poolvids.com/RiverCity/public/
Theres some runouts in there, I can even post several more if you like.
I am playing at a B level right now, I make no bones about it. I need to get back to A level, and will be there again soon.
Dont challenge me as a method of distracting from the point that dropping the cue while stroking is not a good technique.
Chuck

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 06:11 AM
Dave, you seem to be the one getting militant.
Dropping your cue as you stroke the ball is trash. 99 out of 100 instructors will tell you the same thing. Defend it all you want, its not a worthwhile thing to do, or all the pros would be doing it.
Taking an eccentricity of one pro level player and saying its the best thing since sliced bread is ludicrous.
As far as I go, I have posted videos on this very site.
http://www.youtube.com/dashark
http://www.poolvids.com/RiverCity/public/
Theres some runouts in there, I can even post several more if you like.
I am playing at a B level right now, I make no bones about it. I need to get back to A level, and will be there again soon.
Dont challenge me as a method of distracting from the point that dropping the cue while stroking is not a good technique.
Chuck

I wasn't getting militant, nor was I challenging you Chuck-- I promise. I'm only saying you're not an authority to even determine what's garbage and what's not. That's all. I learned it from a pro tour player, who learned it from a legend. As a beginner player browsing the site, I'd sooner check into something (no matter who crazy sounding) when it comes from that lineage versus a B player saying it's garbage--- see my point?

I'm friends with a lot of the top instructors on this site--- some are very traditional, some are not. I think what irks me with your post is you talk like you KNOW... but I'm laughing because obviously you don't. That's all.

Peace - I'm done w/ the back-and-forth. You win.

RiverCity
08-13-2008, 06:30 AM
I wasn't getting militant, nor was I challenging you Chuck-- I promise. I'm only saying you're not an authority to even determine what's garbage and what's not. That's all. I learned it from a pro tour player, who learned it from a legend. As a beginner player browsing the site, I'd sooner check into something (no matter who crazy sounding) when it comes from that lineage versus a B player saying it's garbage--- see my point?

I'm friends with a lot of the top instructors on this site--- some are very traditional, some are not. I think what irks me with your post is you talk like you KNOW... but I'm laughing because obviously you don't. That's all.

Peace - I'm done w/ the back-and-forth. You win.

Dave, Ive been playing this game and have been around this game for almost 30 years. I know that dropping a cue while stroking is not good technique. I dont give a rats ass who told you it was a good idea. Its not.
Since you dont value my opinion.ask the instructors on this site. Some have already weighed in.
Believe whoever or whatever. I dont care what you believe. But do not try to TEACH someone something that is not good for their game. Again, ask the instructors, PLEASE.
Chuck

RRfireblade
08-13-2008, 06:51 AM
I'm just going to add my small opinion.

First off , the theory of or using a mental picture of throwing your cue at the ball is valid. It also applies to many other sports and movements.

The practice of actually doing so is not only completely silly but poor etiquette and dangerous to all equiptment involved which also applies to probably every other sports and movement where it could be practiced.


IMO , it should be illegal to do so anywhere but the privacy of your own (rubber) room. ;)

But more importantly , actually throwing the cue is not going to fix most other flaws in a stroke. If your stroke is not dead straight front to back already , throwing a cue off axis is not going to be any improvement. Let's not even get into how most people can't hit the precise spot on the ball normally and how 'throwing' a cue at the same spot is going to improve on those odds. :)

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 06:57 AM
Dave, Ive been playing this game and have been around this game for almost 30 years. I know that dropping a cue while stroking is not good technique. I dont give a rats ass who told you it was a good idea. Its not.
Since you dont value my opinion.ask the instructors on this site. Some have already weighed in.
Believe whoever or whatever. I dont care what you believe. But do not try to TEACH someone something that is not good for their game. Again, ask the instructors, PLEASE.
Chuck

Chuck:

I tried to drop this in my last post.

You're right...I don't value your opinion, no offense. I don't listen to B players (maybe) who say anything is bad info. I know why instructors would shy away-- it's non-traditional. Doesn't mean it's bad. Since you've been playing for 30 years and play the way you do.... maybe you should try something different.

This info helped me a lot - so I thought I'd pass it forward. Don't chastise me for it when you play a number of clicks below me.... and I've played for only half as long as you. People on this site know me for passing strong info---- nobody is reading what you say and improving their game from it.

Dave

RiverCity
08-13-2008, 06:59 AM
Chuck:

I tried to drop this in my last post.

You're right...I don't value your opinion, no offense. I don't listen to B players (maybe) who say anything is bad info. I know why instructors would shy away-- it's non-traditional. Doesn't mean it's bad. Since you've been playing for 30 years and play the way you do.... maybe you should try something different.

This info helped me a lot - so I thought I'd pass it forward. Don't chastise me for it when you play a number of clicks below me.... and I've played for only half as long as you. People on this site know me for passing strong info---- nobody is reading what you say and improving their game from it.

Dave

You said it all right there. ;)
Thanks
Chuck

Thunderball
08-13-2008, 07:07 AM
I'll give an honest try tonight.Mostly cuz I'm curious as hell.

I'm also going to work on the "body pivot" vid for banking....that one has me thinking I can get on board with some practice.

Thanks for taking the time and putting forth the effort.Obviously you knew this was outside the norm and went with it because you found it useful.You surely felt some people would scoff,but you went foward anyway.For that I say good job man.

I may not learn what you want me too lol,but if you get me thinking,I just might start learning somthing I had never considered.

Well done imo.

jasonlaus
08-13-2008, 08:40 AM
Dave, Ive been playing this game and have been around this game for almost 30 years. I know that dropping a cue while stroking is not good technique.
Chuck
30 YEARS & STILL A B PLAYER, BUT YOU KNOW THIS WONT WORK? WHAT IS GOOD TECHNIQUE & WHY ISNT IT WORKING FOR YOU? PLEASE EXPLAIN-JUST TRYING TO LEARN.

mullyman
08-13-2008, 08:43 AM
I'll admit that something like this throwing the cue is a bit odd, but I would think that anyone that is against it should at least give it a few tries before totally dismissing it. You never know, it may help. I gave it a few tries last night, missed the ball every time and was extremely uncomfortable letting my $2,000 cue drop down on the bed of the table. So, for me, I don't foresee myself incorporating this into my game. But, I have to admit that I was very impressed with the way that Dave didn't miss even one of those long shots on the video. Seems to work for him so what right does anyone have saying it doesn't work? It may not work for you, but at least give it a try first.

Dave, are you gonna answer my question about the banking? Look at page 4 of this thread, you'll see it. It's towards the bottom of the page.
MULLY
not to mention the long draw shots straight back into the pocket. That's not easy to do even with a good stroke and he was popping them and drawing them back into the pocket like it was the easiest thing in the world. The technique has to have some merit.

RonV
08-13-2008, 08:59 AM
Hi Dave, I know Nick Mannino and God rest hIs souL Gene Nagy...I even coached Nick in banking and diamond systems and he uses all of them...

About the throwing Gene got that from the the filipino`s most of them throw the cue...It is the purist way to hit a ball by not gripping the cue...The cue can`t help but to go straight...Gene`s high run was in the four hundred`s throwing the cue...He exaggerated the throw by letting go of the cue...He even broke the balls that way and so does Nick M....

I`am not saying that it works for everybody but it does work...I throw the stick also but I don`t teach it or try to change anyone`s game...You have to give up everything you have learned about basics to try it and most peopke find that very hard to do...

I hope that i have explained it so that you guys understand it a little better...

Ron V

SUPERSTAR
08-13-2008, 10:16 AM
Well. i have to say that this is probably the most interesting advice i have seen in years.

That being said, it is definitely not for me.

But i'm certainly not going to try and stop the masses from learning this technique.

If someone wants to gamble with me, and they can guarantee that their cue ends up on the table after every single shot, i will gladly give them all my money.

As for stroking ability, i'd like to see one shot executed with this cue tossed on the table technique, that i can't do with my normal stoke, let alone opposite handed.

Flex
08-13-2008, 10:41 AM
This is quite an interesting thread. I tried throwing the cue a bit yesterday when practicing, and found it works pretty well for me.

I think I'll start using it for break shots in straight pool when the pressure is really on, as Dave suggests, and also for those must-make shots in other games.

As I dog straight pool break shots too often, I've really nothing to lose by trying this.

Dave, keep the "non-traditional" stuff coming. I like it.

Flex

Rod
08-13-2008, 10:59 AM
The concept is good but its not new to me. I've know about it since SpiderWeb was a toddler! lol The real reason for the concept is tension, the great mass murderer of what could have been a good pool stroke.

Keep in mind though you don't actually throw the cue. You can, just to get the feeling of what taking tension out of your grip feels like but thats it. A similar thought is come into impact with less grip pressure than you started with. Once you learn tension in your grip is a great stroke killer you're on your way to being a better player. Use it if you want or not but if you know you tighten up on delivery, ie cut off jerky strokes etc then its worth considering.

I had a guy that liked the idea so much he tried using it at batting practice. Well, as you can imagine--------------- LOL

Rod

SUPERSTAR
08-13-2008, 12:06 PM
Any cue tossers want some action?!?!

Hmmm?!

mullyman
08-13-2008, 12:56 PM
Well. i have to say that this is probably the most interesting advice i have seen in years.

That being said, it is definitely not for me.

But i'm certainly not going to try and stop the masses from learning this technique.

If someone wants to gamble with me, and they can guarantee that their cue ends up on the table after every single shot, i will gladly give them all my money.

As for stroking ability, i'd like to see one shot executed with this cue tossed on the table technique, that i can't do with my normal stoke, let alone opposite handed.

You know, not once did anyone say that this technique will make shots that you normally can't. The entire idea behind this thread is that if you have trouble choking on long straight shots this could possibly be an option for you. Why do we miss long straight shots? Not aiming, that's for sure. What happens is we tighten up, probably grip the cue too strong, our hand probably twists when we shoot. Tossing the cue forward like this will eliminate that. I beg anyone to argue that tossing it like this WON'T loosen your grip or WON'T prevent your wrist from twisting. It's impossible to argue that. If you're tossing it forward you're not in contact with it so it only has one place to go, straight forward. Again, Dave never said "Use this for all your shots, it's what will make you a great player." No, he said "If you have trouble *****ing this shot this technique may help you."

I honestly can't see how anyone can argue against at least giving it a try. Watch the video, it obviously works.
MULLY

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 01:07 PM
Any cue tossers want some action?!?!

Hmmm?!

You're only 5 letters away from salad tossers, and that's what it looks like you're soliciting.

EDIT:

OK OK Mr. Wilson. I'm on "1", but it was worth it.

Jason Robichaud
08-13-2008, 01:20 PM
It is strange after watching thousands of hours of pool, golf baseball none of them let go of cue, club or bat unless they make a mistake or are pissed.

I watched a guy run a table hitting the CB with the butt, also several times I have seen people run one handed. Hey, it worked for them, maybe I should give it a try.

Nick B
08-13-2008, 01:20 PM
I think 14.1 would be the last game I would use this on. Nice way to foul. Trying to find the cue (which of coarse your not looking at (right)) while a ball comes out of the stack and hits your shaft.

Now excuse me while I run the balls you so nicely broke up and decide which is my key and break out ball. Thank You very much.

Nick

This is quite an interesting thread. I tried throwing the cue a bit yesterday when practicing, and found it works pretty well for me.

I think I'll start using it for break shots in straight pool when the pressure is really on, as Dave suggests, and also for those must-make shots in other games.

As I dog straight pool break shots too often, I've really nothing to lose by trying this.

Dave, keep the "non-traditional" stuff coming. I like it.

Flex

Flex
08-13-2008, 01:25 PM
I think 14.1 would be the last game I would use this on. Nice way to foul. Trying to find the cue (which of coarse your not looking at (right)) while a ball comes out of the stack and hits your shaft.

Now excuse me while I run the balls you so nicely broke up and decide which is my key and break out ball. Thank You very much.

Nick

There are plenty of shots where the cue stick won't come anywhere near the stack or the balls after the shot.

I think Dave's idea is one for some shots, not every one, and is an arrow that can be useful to have in one's quiver.

It seems to me he was throwing the cue quite exaggeratedly in some shots in the video, to show how it can be done.

If you don't like it, don't use it.

Flex

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 01:32 PM
I think 14.1 would be the last game I would use this on. Nice way to foul. Trying to find the cue (which of coarse your not looking at (right)) while a ball comes out of the stack and hits your shaft.

Now excuse me while I run the balls you so nicely broke up and decide which is my key and break out ball. Thank You very much.

Nick

I use it every time I play 14.1 ...... never once have I fouled. Now, which one should I use for a break shot and key ball? LMAO

mullyman
08-13-2008, 02:41 PM
Well, no matter what conclusion you come to on this there is definitely no way you can say it doesn't work. Dave did those long draw shots making the ball and drawing way back down table and scratching in the lower corner pocket. I'm sorry, I'm an SA class player here in Japan, that's between A class and pro, and that is a difficult shot no matter how good your stroke is. You can still make the object ball and not bring the cue ball back to that other corner if the OB goes in the pocket to one side or the other. Dave was hitting the heart of the pocket with both balls, more than once mind you.

We were actually shooting center shots like that the other night, trying to scratch the CB, and out of 5 tries I made the OB every time and only scratched the CB twice. The other A players didn't scratch the CB at all. It's tough.

Now, like I said in an earlier post, this isn't something that I would incorporate into my game, I'm set in my ways, but there is no way to watch that video and say it doesn't have some validity to it.
MULLY

SUPERSTAR
08-13-2008, 04:07 PM
You know, not once did anyone say that this technique will make shots that you normally can't. The entire idea behind this thread is that if you have trouble choking on long straight shots this could possibly be an option for you. Why do we miss long straight shots? Not aiming, that's for sure. What happens is we tighten up, probably grip the cue too strong, our hand probably twists when we shoot. Tossing the cue forward like this will eliminate that. I beg anyone to argue that tossing it like this WON'T loosen your grip or WON'T prevent your wrist from twisting. It's impossible to argue that. If you're tossing it forward you're not in contact with it so it only has one place to go, straight forward. Again, Dave never said "Use this for all your shots, it's what will make you a great player." No, he said "If you have trouble *****ing this shot this technique may help you."

I honestly can't see how anyone can argue against at least giving it a try. Watch the video, it obviously works.
MULLY


Ok, i am not arguing that it might work for some people.
But Spider DID say this

I'll create a video of stroke shots with it that'll make your head spin.

Dave

So i am saying, make a video of a shot i can't do with my own stroke, and then i will give this technique more credit then i am now.

If someone is gonna toss their cue the entire game, they will effectively empty my pockets.

I need to have it proven to me.

Seeing is believing.

ALSO, i don't want a video of just one shot that was edited after many attempts, i want to see consistency and have the shot repeated time and time again.

mullyman
08-13-2008, 04:17 PM
ALSO, i don't want a video of just one shot that was edited after many attempts, i want to see consistency and have the shot repeated time and time again.


Well, from what I could tell the video he has up doesn't have any editing done to it.
MULLY

mullyman
08-13-2008, 04:24 PM
So i am saying, make a video of a shot i can't do with my own stroke, and then i will give this technique more credit then i am now.

Well, again, Dave never said that he can do shots that you can't do with your own stroke. His entire point of this is that it is accurate in delivering the cue in a straight line as opposed to when you tighten up and twist the cue, which we all are guilty of from time to time.

Again, I'm not supporting throwing your cue on the table like that. All I'm saying is that from what I saw it does work and it works well. For someone that has a problem with shots like he does on that video it may help them to give it a try.

On a side note, this technique won't be worth much if you're not stroking straight to begin with. I tried it a few times the other night and couldn't make a ball with it. I think I have a twist in my stroke that comes back to center on impact. Not a good habit to have, I know this, but I was gone for quite a few years and really haven't gotten my stroke back since and I'm too lazy to practice like I used to. hehe!!
MULLY

tom haney
08-13-2008, 04:43 PM
Well, I tried it today. Missed the shot and scared the crap out of the barmaid.

3andstop
08-13-2008, 04:45 PM
......... nevermind

mullyman
08-13-2008, 04:46 PM
Well, I tried it today. Missed the shot and scared the crap out of the barmaid.

HAHAHA!!!
MULLY

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 05:40 PM
Ok, i am not arguing that it might work for some people.
But Spider DID say this


So i am saying, make a video of a shot i can't do with my own stroke, and then i will give this technique more credit then i am now.

If someone is gonna toss their cue the entire game, they will effectively empty my pockets.

I need to have it proven to me.

Seeing is believing.

ALSO, i don't want a video of just one shot that was edited after many attempts, i want to see consistency and have the shot repeated time and time again.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I've NEVER edited one video I've ever posted. Every single one of my videos is unedited from beginning to end.

Do you see a cut line in ANY of my videos?????????? If so, where???

Oh my lord......

OK--- new video coming. Mouth.

EDIT:

Sorry, thought you meant my previous videos were edited. By the way, when you throw your cue, it's MAX action.

Here's a better move. How about you post a few videos of what you consider mac-daddy shots and I'll throw my cue and one-up it. Unedited. Repeatedly.

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 06:05 PM
I just made this video an hour ago--- for practice only, wasn't even gonna post it. I setup Kinister's Shot #1 just because I haven't done it in a long time and Scott Lee reminded me about it earlier in the thread.

The results in this video are very conservative. Meaning, I wasn't really in stroke. If I'm clicking, my results are usually far better.

Everyone wanted an extended demonstration, so this is it.

I only watched it one time....

Results:

97% shots made with warp-speed convinction
60% shots made within shot#1 parameters

You will notice I pull away the shots I feel are no good. Some of them - you're prob thinking are definitely good. If the shot made less than 1/4 ball forward revolution--- it was disqualified. I accepted up to 1 ball forward revolution. Some were close. Tally it up.

I threw my cue through each shot like I was trying to spear King Kong in the heart from 300 yards away.

http://www.poolvids.com/view/53/kinister-shot-1-workout/

mullyman
08-13-2008, 07:06 PM
Hey, Dave, you may want to check the white balance on your video camera. The color is really bleeding and hard to see how the balls are set up.

What is the Kinister shot #1? (ball set up)
MULLY

mullyman
08-13-2008, 07:15 PM
I'd like to add that I've seen a few Kinister videos on Youtube, that man is.........passionate for lack of a better term. I've always wanted to get his series of DVD's but after seeing him and how intense he is I don't think I could sit through them.
MULLY

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 07:17 PM
Hey, Dave, you may want to check the white balance on your video camera. The color is really bleeding and hard to see how the balls are set up.

What is the Kinister shot #1? (ball set up)
MULLY

Each ball is setup on the 2nd diamond on the same rail (opposite sides of the side pocket).

You setup the shot so the OB is about 1 ball off the rail and the CB is placed at a position where the shot is dead-straight-in.

The object of the shot is to replace the OB. You have to be within a ball diameter from the OB's position. Stop shots are disqualified - there most be forward progress from the face of the OB. Scott Lee might have more to add / edit from my description--- I'm not a shot #1 expert.

You're not supposed to lag-draw the CB. I think that's cheating. Lag draws should be disqualified. Each shot was struck with 1 tip of low english at high speed.

Hope that helps.

GMAC
08-13-2008, 07:22 PM
I just made this video an hour ago--- for practice only, wasn't even gonna post it. I setup Kinister's Shot #1 just because I haven't done it in a long time and Scott Lee reminded me about it earlier in the thread.

The results in this video are very conservative. Meaning, I wasn't really in stroke. If I'm clicking, my results are usually far better.

Everyone wanted an extended demonstration, so this is it.

I only watched it one time....

Results:

97% shots made with warp-speed convinction
60% shots made within shot#1 parameters

You will notice I pull away the shots I feel are no good. Some of them - you're prob thinking are definitely good. If the shot made less than 1/4 ball forward revolution--- it was disqualified. I accepted up to 1 ball forward revolution. Some were close. Tally it up.

I threw my cue through each shot like I was trying to spear King Kong in the heart from 300 yards away.

http://www.poolvids.com/view/53/kinister-shot-1-workout/


As Bert would say "I promise you - you are hitting them to hard":thumbup:

SUPERSTAR
08-13-2008, 07:33 PM
Here's a better move. How about you post a few videos of what you consider mac-daddy shots and I'll throw my cue and one-up it. Unedited. Repeatedly.

Your the one with the camera set up, and the equipment on hand.

Show what you can do.

Lets see some power draw shots, and some sick follows, and inside and outside English positions shots.

Throw your best stuff out there.

If it is good, i will freely admit that it is. I have no problem with giving a compliment where it is deserved, but for this to be something that you want other people to learn and practice, there has to be some reason for it.

AKA, things they can't do normally.

If you manage to do that, i will be impressed, but if not then why on earth would anyone even consider this an option if it can't take them to the next level.

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 07:34 PM
As Bert would say "I promise you - you are hitting them to hard":thumbup:

Bert was also playing on a 7' table. Put him on a 9'er and he's hitting them hard too. Otherwise, he's lag-drawing and that's easier than clubbing baby seals.

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 07:37 PM
Your the one with the camera set up, and the equipment on hand.

Show what you can do.

Lets see some power draw shots, and some sick follows, and inside and outside English positions shots.

Throw your best stuff out there.

If it is good, i will freely admit that it is. I have no problem with giving a compliment where it is deserved, but for this to be something that you want other people to learn and practice, there has to be some reason for it.

AKA, things they can't do normally.

If you manage to do that, i will be impressed, but if not then why on earth would anyone even consider this an option if it can't take them to the next level.

It does take them to the next level, that's my point.

You tell me what you want me to do (something within SuperStar's ability) and I'll do it. I'm not going through the trouble to do this just to say it's a pvssy shot. You give me the parameters and I'll deliver.

If you give me Mike Massey-like shots, I wanna see you do them first.

SUPERSTAR
08-13-2008, 07:53 PM
It does take them to the next level, that's my point.

You tell me what you want me to do (something within SuperStar's ability) and I'll do it. I'm not going through the trouble to do this just to say it's a pvssy shot. You give me the parameters and I'll deliver.

If you give me Mike Massey-like shots, I wanna see you do them first.

It doesn't have to be ridiculous stuff, but it should be good enough to settle the issue with the skeptics. I for 1 am on the fence about it.

Set up a decent draw shot. You decide what you think is appropriate.

Then set up a high sidespin follow...say something like where you have to follow the ball with inside english and come 2 rails and out.

See, for me to believe, i have to see it. That all.
Plus, i am not about to go bang up my cue just so i can find out.
And i am not alone in this aspect. I know there are plenty of people on this forum who like to debate theory and technique and while some of it is valid, some of it isn't. But if your going to get people to actually practice this, and throw their cues, you have to do something more then a stop shot.

If you really want to settle this and stick it up every guys a.s.s who doesn't believe, this is what you need to do.

Cause otherwise, they aren't going to accept doing a replace the ball stop shot as proof, despite the fact that i personally know that it's not exactly the easiest thing TOO do. There has to be more practical applications then just shots of that nature.

poolcuemaster
08-13-2008, 08:18 PM
I'll say this Spidey you have the stone cold nuts against the bet Scoot Lee offered for one hundred a shot for Kinesters #1, but he can't bet now that he can see how well you make the shot. We met at DCC in the TAR booth and I need you to pm me more clear directions on the bank video as it was unclear to me about the shift and the second part about the outer edge when you have time please. See you soon at US Open or DCC I hope. Thanks for the videos--Leonard

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 08:19 PM
It doesn't have to be ridiculous stuff, but it should be good enough to settle the issue with the skeptics. I for 1 am on the fence about it.

Set up a decent draw shot. You decide what you think is appropriate.

Then set up a high sidespin follow...say something like where you have to follow the ball with inside english and come 2 rails and out.

See, for me to believe, i have to see it. That all.
Plus, i am not about to go bang up my cue just so i can find out.
And i am not alone in this aspect. I know there are plenty of people on this forum who like to debate theory and technique and while some of it is valid, some of it isn't. But if your going to get people to actually practice this, and throw their cues, you have to do something more then a stop shot.

If you really want to settle this and stick it up every guys a.s.s who doesn't believe, this is what you need to do.

Cause otherwise, they aren't going to accept doing a replace the ball stop shot as proof, despite the fact that i personally know that it's not exactly the easiest thing TOO do. There has to be more practical applications then just shots of that nature.

I did the shot #1 because, in my opinion, it's a far higher difficulty than the shots you described. With shot #1, you must be mega-accurate in tip positioning and follow-through as well as stroke straightness.

Spinning around the table with as Hall puts it, "Whippin' action" is cake. ANYONE can do that.

Look at my Lambros... there isn't a nick on it. Dropping the cue 1" isn't doing anything to the cue or table.

Just cause I love ya man, I'll setup some angled shots and whip the shit outta the ball and post something tomorrow. If you wanna see force follow and force draw.... zzzzzzzzzz no prob. I'm almost wasting my time. If you want a combination of precision and power... you just got it with the previous link.

If you want just precision, maybe 3 rail inside english position shots.... that's more impressive to me. But you guys are the judge, not me.

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 08:25 PM
I'll say this Spidey you have the stone cold nuts against the bet Scoot Lee offered for one hundred a shot for Kinesters #1, but he can't bet now that he can see how well you make the shot. We met at DCC in the TAR booth and I need you to pm me more clear directions on the bank video as it was unclear to me about the shift and the second part about the outer edge when you have time please. See you soon at US Open or DCC I hope. Thanks for the videos--Leonard

Thanks, I appreciate that. I know none of you guys know me, but when I say this is totally average--- it is. When I'm firing on all cylinders, the % shoots from 60% (30 balls) to about 80%. Heck, I dogged almost 50% of the 2nd rack.

I would never bet with Scott--- he's the man. Plus, I need his help on something mechanical.. so I'd never bet him. What people may not know is that I shot that shot non-stop for nearly 5 months straight, every day, thousands of times. It's all I did for a long time. No pool, just that shot. So going shot-for-shot with someone is good action unless they're an elite player (as long as lag-drawing is not allowed).

Edit:

I'm not looking for shot #1 action, btw... or any action. I suck and I'm a nit.

Bob Jewett
08-13-2008, 08:54 PM
... I know for a fact I'm releasing before contact.... no doubt in my mind. ...
People are often mistaken about this sort of thing. Can you tape it from an angle where we can see when the stick starts to move relative to your grip hand. In the clip I saw, this can't be determined.

Also, I would be far more impressed by a shot which leaves the cue ball within a diamond of the end cushion you're shooting from. Can you do that with this throwing technique?

mullyman
08-13-2008, 08:59 PM
People are often mistaken about this sort of thing. Can you tape it from an angle where we can see when the stick starts to move relative to your grip hand. In the clip I saw, this can't be determined.

Also, I would be far more impressed by a shot which leaves the cue ball within a diamond of the end cushion you're shooting from. Can you do that with this throwing technique?


Again, I don't know how many times I've written this so far, Dave is saying that throwing the cue like this will prevent the cue twisting in any direction from your grip tightening up. He offered this up as an alternative shot for people that may have trouble keeping everything in line on long straight in shots.

I haven't seen him say even one time that he can stop the cue ball on a postage stamp after going 5 cushions with inside spin. It's an alternative shot for people that have a tendency to grip too tight on the money ball and dog it from the infamous grip twist.
MULLY

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 09:11 PM
People are often mistaken about this sort of thing. Can you tape it from an angle where we can see when the stick starts to move relative to your grip hand. In the clip I saw, this can't be determined.

Also, I would be far more impressed by a shot which leaves the cue ball within a diamond of the end cushion you're shooting from. Can you do that with this throwing technique?

You mean leave a ball in a corner pocket, shoot from the other corner pocket (with me having enough room to bridge comfy), and suck it back to the rail I'm shooting from? No prob. I'll do that tomorrow.

I only have a webcam, so you can either see my release or see the action of the ball. I release barely before impact.

I haven't tried, but I wouldn't bet against me shooting from the kitchen to an OB close to a corner and sucking it back off the rail I'm shooting from and sending it out of the kitchen again. Not saying I can, I haven't tried. I wouldn't bet against it though.

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 09:13 PM
Again, I don't know how many times I've written this so far, Dave is saying that throwing the cue like this will prevent the cue twisting in any direction from your grip tightening up. He offered this up as an alternative shot for people that may have trouble keeping everything in line on long straight in shots.

I haven't seen him say even one time that he can stop the cue ball on a postage stamp after going 5 cushions with inside spin. It's an alternative shot for people that have a tendency to grip too tight on the money ball and dog it from the infamous grip twist.
MULLY

I know, Mully. But I guess people wanna know if it's a gimmick or not. So be it. If people want me to snap balls multiple rails, accurately, with it... I will. *yawn* If a shot has a difficulty of, say, 8 traditionally, it's like a 6 if you throw it. People will eventually "get" what I was trying to say in my original post. *yawn*

If it takes 115 posts to send a message home to some people and educate them on something they have no clue about or understand, noooo prob.

Scott Lee
08-13-2008, 09:30 PM
Actually Leonard, I would win the bet. Dave did not hit the shot exactly as it is supposed to be hit, even ONCE! He got close a couple of times, but not spot on. The CB must REPLACE the OB exactly...which is what Kinister's shot #1 is. It cannot roll forward, back up, or move sideways. That's why these demonstrations have to be set up with measureable results (i.e.: putting both balls on hole reinforcements, so it is an exact replacement; and using a laser to make sure the shot is a dead straight line...you can't do it visually, it's too subjective to error). I already mentioned how tough this shot is, and even Bert cannot hit it perfect, on demand...especially for big cash (notice too, that I declined to bet with Dave on that shot, with both of us shooting it, unless the balls were moved closer together). I will say, Dave hit the shot very well, for getting close!

Scott (not Scoot) Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I'll say this Spidey you have the stone cold nuts against the bet Scoot Lee offered for one hundred a shot for Kinesters #1, but he can't bet now that he can see how well you make the shot. --Leonard

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 09:44 PM
Actually Leonard, I would win the bet. Dave did not hit the shot exactly as it is supposed to be hit, even ONCE! He got close a couple of times, but not spot on. The CB must REPLACE the OB exactly...which is what Kinister's shot #1 is. It cannot roll forward, back up, or move sideways. That's why these demonstrations have to be set up with measureable results (i.e.: putting both balls on hole reinforcements, so it is an exact replacement; and using a laser to make sure the shot is a dead straight line...you can't do it visually, it's too subjective to error). I already mentioned how tough this shot is, and even Bert cannot hit it perfect, on demand...especially for big cash (notice too, that I declined to bet with Dave on that shot, with both of us shooting it, unless the balls were moved closer together). I will say, Dave hit the shot very well, for getting close!

Scott (not Scoot) Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott:

Nobody on planet earth could beat, say, a 15-ball shot #1 ghost using hole reinforcements on a 9' table. I'd venture to say it's impossible--- including Efren. That's why I stipulated you can be 1/2 rotation forward (which can be minimized to 1/4 easily and fairly). I was proving the strength of the technique more than my shot #1. Considering the cue was airborne at impact, not too bad.

Am I wrong? Using hole reinforcements is mega-extreme. Do you know anyone who can beat a rack with hole reinforcements at that distance? Just curious.

Dave

Bob Jewett
08-13-2008, 09:45 PM
You mean leave a ball in a corner pocket, shoot from the other corner pocket (with me having enough room to bridge comfy), and suck it back to the rail I'm shooting from? ...
More or less the same position you demonstrated is fine, but we need a side view. If you want a specific shot, try distance 5 of shot 5C (page 12) of http://www.sfbilliards.com/basics.pdf (attached)...

74598

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 09:51 PM
More or less the same position you demonstrated is fine, but we need a side view. If you want a specific shot, try distance 5 of shot 5C (page 12) of http://www.sfbilliards.com/basics.pdf (attached)...

74598

I can definitely get the CB back to the rail at position 5- guaranteed . In that little gray box? Low %. That's tough. Suck it back out of the kitchen after hitting the rail at that position.... likely, but not a lock.

So I don't have to make multiple videos tomorrow... is everyone agreeable that this proves throwing the cue isn't gimmicky? If not, I'd rather have you guys vote on it. This can be a "poll the audience" thing :) Just like TV.... I love it.

Bob Jewett
08-13-2008, 09:59 PM
.. In that little gray box? ...
Yes, leave the cue ball in the gray box. The point is accuracy.

Scott Lee
08-13-2008, 10:01 PM
Dave...Make the shot perfectly 15x in a row? Nope, I doubt anybody could that, under the conditions I put up. Perhaps 50%, if you had PAT 3 skills (like Thorsten, Ortmann, Randyg, and maybe Souquet...because they practice this shot). However, you're saying it's 'mega-extreme' to use hole reinforcements? Not at all...we use them all the time, in pool school, to show exact results...and I already said you didn't do too bad. Just not anywhere near perfect...which is how Kinister describes shot #1. BTW, I already said I think that shot is brutal, to be able to shoot it, the way Bert describes it, no matter what kind of grip or swing you use! Personally, I think the shot is mostly BS. Learning to hit a PERFECT stop shot (same perameters as in my other post) is far more important.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott:

Nobody on planet earth could beat, say, a 15-ball shot #1 ghost using hole reinforcements on a 9' table. I'd venture to say it's impossible--- including Efren. That's why I stipulated you can be 1/2 rotation forward (which can be minimized to 1/4 easily and fairly). I was proving the strength of the technique more than my shot #1. Considering the cue was airborne at impact, not too bad.

Am I wrong? Using hole reinforcements is mega-extreme. Do you know anyone who can beat a rack with hole reinforcements at that distance? Just curious.

Dave

mullyman
08-14-2008, 01:12 AM
More or less the same position you demonstrated is fine, but we need a side view. If you want a specific shot, try distance 5 of shot 5C (page 12) of http://www.sfbilliards.com/basics.pdf (attached)...

74598


My initial thoughts on looking at this particular shot is that I can probably do this on a fairly consistent basis. Let me make sure about this. I have to pocket the ball in the upper corner and draw the CB back into that boxed area? Am I allowed to use a cushion? Seems like a helluva cheat of the pocket to not use the cushion.
MULLY

softshot
08-14-2008, 01:40 AM
More or less the same position you demonstrated is fine, but we need a side view. If you want a specific shot, try distance 5 of shot 5C (page 12) of http://www.sfbilliards.com/basics.pdf (attached)...

74598

nice drill I do pretty well from the 1-4 spots its 5 and 6 that give me issues

mullyman
08-14-2008, 02:34 AM
Bob, love this pdf you posted. Is it OK if I print it out?
MULLY
just getting permission

SpiderWebComm
08-14-2008, 06:17 AM
Dave...Make the shot perfectly 15x in a row? Nope, I doubt anybody could that, under the conditions I put up. Perhaps 50%, if you had PAT 3 skills (like Thorsten, Ortmann, Randyg, and maybe Souquet...because they practice this shot). However, you're saying it's 'mega-extreme' to use hole reinforcements? Not at all...we use them all the time, in pool school, to show exact results...and I already said you didn't do too bad. Just not anywhere near perfect...which is how Kinister describes shot #1. BTW, I already said I think that shot is brutal, to be able to shoot it, the way Bert describes it, no matter what kind of grip or swing you use! Personally, I think the shot is mostly BS. Learning to hit a PERFECT stop shot (same perameters as in my other post) is far more important.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The only reason I said mega-extreme is you have a few mm tolerance in the reaction of the OB and you're multiple feet away. The difference between a stop shot and a replacement shot is really big--stroke wise-- with shot #1. Anyone can lag-draw, stop that ball. I think I could do that until I got 'bored' and missed. It's not the shot, I think, that's important with shot #1, it's the stroke required.

You're totally correct though... being able to control long-range stop shots is crucial--comes up WAY more times than needing to stun-follow a long range ball.

SpiderWebComm
08-14-2008, 06:21 AM
Yes, leave the cue ball in the gray box. The point is accuracy.

It looks like the angle into the pocket, based on your setup is dead straight in. Do you cheat the pocket and use the rail? Or, are you throwing the OB in right right-spin to get that far to the right? I never shot it or practiced it--- I just want to get the idea before I start recording.

What's par for the course? If I setup the OB on #5 and the CB at the position shown, how many times out of 10 is Bob Jewett in the little gray box?

Dave

Bob Jewett
08-14-2008, 08:52 AM
My initial thoughts on looking at this particular shot is that I can probably do this on a fairly consistent basis. Let me make sure about this. I have to pocket the ball in the upper corner and draw the CB back into that boxed area? Am I allowed to use a cushion? Seems like a helluva cheat of the pocket to not use the cushion.
MULLY
Try the shot with and without the side cushion to see which is easier for you. But I practice the shot without a side cushion.

Bob Jewett
08-14-2008, 08:56 AM
Bob, love this pdf you posted. Is it OK if I print it out?
MULLY
just getting permission
Feel free. I wouldn't have put it up and expected people not to make copies for their own use. I don't even mind if instructors print it out to help with classes as long as they don't strip the logo stuff.

Bob Jewett
08-14-2008, 09:02 AM
It looks like the angle into the pocket, based on your setup is dead straight in. Do you cheat the pocket and use the rail? Or, are you throwing the OB in right right-spin to get that far to the right? I never shot it or practiced it--- I just want to get the idea before I start recording.

What's par for the course? If I setup the OB on #5 and the CB at the position shown, how many times out of 10 is Bob Jewett in the little gray box?

Dave
The cue ball is in hand behind the line. The point is to discover what angle you need to achieve the draw angle. I recommend no cushion and no side spin.

Progressive practice gives you a distance at which you are 50% on the shot. Read the PDF. In the current sorry state of my game, I'm 50% at about 4.5 on a table with 4.25-inch pockets.

SpiderWebComm
08-14-2008, 10:39 AM
The cue ball is in hand behind the line. The point is to discover what angle you need to achieve the draw angle. I recommend no cushion and no side spin.

Progressive practice gives you a distance at which you are 50% on the shot. Read the PDF. In the current sorry state of my game, I'm 50% at about 4.5 on a table with 4.25-inch pockets.

Good info--- I can do this w/ ball-in-hand. I'll just set it up at position 5 straight in, with a straight-back angle to the little box. I'll hit it warp speed and make the speed adjustment to the position spot with my tip positioning. Once I get that adjustment, It'll go. I might be thinking too hard. Let me read your instructions.

By the way, you're not fooling me with 'sorry game' talk ;) You're a player-player no matter what you say on AZB.

Neil
08-14-2008, 10:52 AM
.................

SpiderWebComm
08-14-2008, 10:58 AM
That's the way I practice shot #1 also. Stopping the cb dead, no forward, back, or side motion allowed. I feel it is the way that has practicality to it. Replacing the ob comes in handy once in a while, but not that often.

I was just mentioning earlier that there's a HUGE difference in stroke between stop and slight roll forward. You wouldn't think so, but it's a big difference. It's that stroke he's trying to develop, not the shot.

Scott Lee
08-14-2008, 11:59 AM
Dave...I agree, and tell you what...When I come see you, I'll set this shot up, with 4 diamonds between the two balls (on hole reinforcements), and bet you dinner that you cannot shoot a perfect stopshot even 3 out of 10 tries! The major point of our conversation, is that Kinister's shot #1 is an extreme shot, and rarely comes up in a game. Therefore, imo, spending a lot of time trying to perfect this shot, before you can even shoot a perfect stopshot, at that distance, is a complete waste of time.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

P.S. The best part of this bet is we'll both get to EAT! :D

The only reason I said mega-extreme is you have a few mm tolerance in the reaction of the OB and you're multiple feet away. The difference between a stop shot and a replacement shot is really big--stroke wise-- with shot #1. Anyone can lag-draw, stop that ball. I think I could do that until I got 'bored' and missed. It's not the shot, I think, that's important with shot #1, it's the stroke required.

You're totally correct though... being able to control long-range stop shots is crucial--comes up WAY more times than needing to stun-follow a long range ball.

SpiderWebComm
08-14-2008, 12:15 PM
Dave...I agree, and tell you what...When I come see you, I'll set this shot up, with 4 diamonds between the two balls (on hole reinforcements), and bet you dinner that you cannot shoot a perfect stopshot even 3 out of 10 tries! The major point of our conversation, is that Kinister's shot #1 is an extreme shot, and rarely comes up in a game. Therefore, imo, spending a lot of time trying to perfect this shot, before you can even shoot a perfect stopshot, at that distance, is a complete waste of time.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

P.S. The best part of this bet is we'll both get to EAT! :D

I wouldn't take the bet for 1/10 on the hole protector. The shot I shot requires a similar stroke to what you're describing versus the stop shot because of the slight forward rotation. Better a hair more than none at all.

Tell Thorsten or anyone on that list they have action for 8 balls on the hole protector. I'd go broke just to see it. They have a sucker in me, that's for sure;)

When I see you next, I'll buy you dinner for free. I have a lot of questions.

That's all I was saying.

P.S. All shot #1 is have you send out a completely flat ball (long distance)--- it's a different world to control a long flat ball versus a long lag-draw. Your thoughts? Curious on your feelings on that.

Scott Lee
08-14-2008, 12:54 PM
Dave...That stop shot is required part of the PAT 3 test...4 diamond PERFECT stop shot. I don't know personally know any of the German players, so that's up to you, to get that action! :D

No doubt we'll have that dinner, in the not-to-distant future...and you can ask away!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I wouldn't take the bet for 1/10 on the hole protector. The shot I shot requires a similar stroke to what you're describing versus the stop shot because of the slight forward rotation. Better a hair more than none at all.

Tell Thorsten or anyone on that list they have action for 8 balls on the hole protector. I'd go broke just to see it. They have a sucker in me, that's for sure;)

When I see you next, I'll buy you dinner for free. I have a lot of questions.

That's all I was saying.

P.S. All shot #1 is have you send out a completely flat ball (long distance)--- it's a different world to control a long flat ball versus a long lag-draw. Your thoughts? Curious on your feelings on that.

mullyman
08-14-2008, 01:43 PM
Tell you soemthing about the hole protector. I don't think that anyone could move the ball forward to replace the OB from anything more than a few inches apart and even then it would be extremely tough. Now, and I really mean this, I enjoy shooting pool and I like learning things that can improve my play and I'll even practice from time to time, but there is no way in Hell that I want to spend the time it would take practicing moving the cueball forward a butt hair after contact. If anyone seriously works on replacing the object ball on that hole protector....well, that's some serious OCD right there.
MULLY
I don't think it could be done consistently though

SpiderWebComm
08-14-2008, 04:08 PM
Bob:

Well, that test didn't last long. First shot, made the ball....sucked back to middle table. Second shot, made the ball, sucked back to my rail--but 2 diamonds outside of my little box. Third shot, I flew the CB off the table and it blew up my layered tip LMAO. UGGGGGH. No more pool until I make it to the shop in Baltimore.

After 3 shots, it can be done, although unreliably. I don't like releasing the cue on such a hard draw shot with the butt-end elevated over the rail. I honestly never tried it until just now. Being jacked-up that little bit made a huge difference in how the cue ball reacted. My guess is you probably knew that going in and this made your point :)

With a level cue, I can snap the hell out of the CB (power draw or follow) with a throw-stroke. With an unlevel cue and extreme draw, ya gotta hold on. Release and catch isn't any good for that shot either... not enough power. With the butt jacked-up, the tip of the cue flies up too fast and launches the CB. I just learned one scenario where it can't work, reliably.

Dave

p.s. anyone have a cue i can borrow until the weekend? :'-(

p.p.s. put me on a snooker table with the same distance draw where I can keep that cue level....not a problem.

sfleinen
08-15-2008, 12:01 PM
Again, I don't know how many times I've written this so far, Dave is saying that throwing the cue like this will prevent the cue twisting in any direction from your grip tightening up. He offered this up as an alternative shot for people that may have trouble keeping everything in line on long straight in shots.

I haven't seen him say even one time that he can stop the cue ball on a postage stamp after going 5 cushions with inside spin. It's an alternative shot for people that have a tendency to grip too tight on the money ball and dog it from the infamous grip twist.
MULLY

Folks:

A late-comer to this thread, and I did my best to read as much of it as I could, but I wanted to lend a little mechanical engineering view to point something out that detractors to this "throwing the cue" technique *might* be overlooking. (And "might" is the key operative word here; I don't mean to use it authoritatively, but rather more as a "have you considered it from this perspective?" viewpoint.) When watching Dave's video, I noticed his wrist position when gripping the cue. It is a *prone* wrist position -- meaning, his wrist is bent outwards (away from the body) slightly, enough so that the palm of his hand is "hovering over" the top surface of the gripping area of the cue, with his fingers and thumb directed down perfectly perpendicular to the floor along the "sides" of the gripping surface of the cue, gently wrapping under it. (I don't know if this is Dave's "normal" wrist position before-discovering/not-using the "throwing the cue" technique, and I use the term "prone" to mean just like it does in competitive rifle shooting -- lying flat on one's belly. The analogy here is "palm = belly.") Keith McCready is an example of a player that uses a prone wrist position, albeit his is an extreme example. This is as opposed to a retrograde wrist position, a la Efren Reyes, where the wrist is bent inwards towards the body with the major knuckles of the fingers (e.g. 2nd joint) pointed towards the floor, the cue "rolling over" the knuckle of the index finger as its fulcrum point during stroke.

What does this have to do with the thread? Mechanics-wise, methinks this "throwing the cue" technique is *much* easier and more natural for a player that uses a prone wrist position, because his/her grip fingers are naturally angled down perpendicular to the floor, along the "sides" of the cue. A pure mechanical analogy might be the "gripper claw" you see attached to a crane in a garbage dump; the gripper claw opens, grabs material, and when finally positioned over the destination deposit area, opens and releases, letting the material fall straight down without any sideways influence from the gripper claw itself. (BTW, I did mean that to be a pure mechanical analogy; no "garbage dump" innuendos to this thread was intended. :-) )

Players that use a straight or retrograde wrist position will have a much tougher time with the "throwing the cue" technique without imparting some kind of "spin" or "roll" to the cue as they try to get their fingers out from under the cue. So it would be safe to say that the "throwing the cue" technique might not be a "natural" or beneficial technique for players that use standard or retrograde wrist position, unless they adopt a very extreme "snap open" motion of the hand, which would be quite unnatural and may even impart some "yaw" to the cue if the cue happens to cling a bit to either the thumb or one of the fingers.

I have seen players like Keith McCready use the "throwing the cue" technique (albeit Keith's sidearm style is extremely unorthodox). And even then, he used it as more as a money-/game-ball "coupe de grace" show-off shot.

Thoughts? What say ye all?
-Sean

SpiderWebComm
08-15-2008, 02:16 PM
Folks:

A late-comer to this thread, and I did my best to read as much of it as I could, but I wanted to lend a little mechanical engineering view to point something out that detractors to this "throwing the cue" technique *might* be overlooking. (And "might" is the key operative word here; I don't mean to use it authoritatively, but rather more as a "have you considered it from this perspective?" viewpoint.) When watching Dave's video, I noticed his wrist position when gripping the cue. It is a *prone* wrist position -- meaning, his wrist is bent outwards (away from the body) slightly, enough so that the palm of his hand is "hovering over" the top surface of the gripping area of the cue, with his fingers and thumb directed down perfectly perpendicular to the floor along the "sides" of the gripping surface of the cue, gently wrapping under it. (I don't know if this is Dave's "normal" wrist position before-discovering/not-using the "throwing the cue" technique, and I use the term "prone" to mean just like it does in competitive rifle shooting -- lying flat on one's belly. The analogy here is "palm = belly.") Keith McCready is an example of a player that uses a prone wrist position, albeit his is an extreme example. This is as opposed to a retrograde wrist position, a la Efren Reyes, where the wrist is bent inwards towards the body with the major knuckles of the fingers (e.g. 2nd joint) pointed towards the floor, the cue "rolling over" the knuckle of the index finger as its fulcrum point during stroke.

What does this have to do with the thread? Mechanics-wise, methinks this "throwing the cue" technique is *much* easier and more natural for a player that uses a prone wrist position, because his/her grip fingers are naturally angled down perpendicular to the floor, along the "sides" of the cue. A pure mechanical analogy might be the "gripper claw" you see attached to a crane in a garbage dump; the gripper claw opens, grabs material, and when finally positioned over the destination deposit area, opens and releases, letting the material fall straight down without any sideways influence from the gripper claw itself. (BTW, I did mean that to be a pure mechanical analogy; no "garbage dump" innuendos to this thread was intended. :-) )

Players that use a straight or retrograde wrist position will have a much tougher time with the "throwing the cue" technique without imparting some kind of "spin" or "roll" to the cue as they try to get their fingers out from under the cue. So it would be safe to say that the "throwing the cue" technique might not be a "natural" or beneficial technique for players that use standard or retrograde wrist position, unless they adopt a very extreme "snap open" motion of the hand, which would be quite unnatural and may even impart some "yaw" to the cue if the cue happens to cling a bit to either the thumb or one of the fingers.

I have seen players like Keith McCready use the "throwing the cue" technique (albeit Keith's sidearm style is extremely unorthodox). And even then, he used it as more as a money-/game-ball "coupe de grace" show-off shot.

Thoughts? What say ye all?
-Sean

very perceptive. you are right. my wrist position is prone as u would say when throwing because it's the only way to get your hand out of the way.

I don't hold the cue in that way normally. it's an inverse position if u were throwing a dart.

good post

mullyman
08-15-2008, 02:23 PM
Try the shot with and without the side cushion to see which is easier for you. But I practice the shot without a side cushion.


Ok, set it up last night and this is what happened.

Position 1: 5 for 5
Position 2: 5 for 5
Position 3: 5 for 5
Position 4: Rattled pocket once but made target area with cue ball. 4 for 5
Position 5: Rattled pocket twice but made target area with cue ball. 3 for 5
Position 6: Oops, forgot about position 6 and didn't even try it.

Very interesting drills. Seems to me, for me, that the further away it gets the draw isn't the problem as much as making the ball is. I honestly think the further the ball gets away from me I'm using too much power and not enough stroke. I used to hit those long draw shots really well, loved them. 5 year lay off and I've lost that fluid stroke I had and can't seem to find it.
MULLY
I can feel myself punching the ball

Vinnie
08-15-2008, 02:49 PM
Folks: ... It is a *prone* wrist position ... Thoughts? What say ye all?
-Sean

Excellent post! That explains why, when I was trying the technique, I ended up catching the cue in my hand at the end of the butt, every time. (I was using a "normal" grip) Thanks.

sfleinen
08-15-2008, 03:25 PM
Excellent post! That explains why, when I was trying the technique, I ended up catching the cue in my hand at the end of the butt, every time. (I was using a "normal" grip) Thanks.

You were catching the cue in your hand at the end of the (the = your) butt? Hmm... sounds like your stroke arm was... umm... way too far "behind" your body. Either that, or you have a very, very long upper arm. :-D

Just kidding! Seriously, glad my mechanical engineering insight was helpful.

Cheers,
-Sean

AtLarge
08-15-2008, 10:41 PM
Folks:

methinks this "throwing the cue" technique is *much* easier and more natural for a player that uses a prone wrist position. ... Players that use a straight or retrograde wrist position will have a much tougher time with the "throwing the cue" technique without imparting some kind of "spin" or "roll" to the cue as they try to get their fingers out from under the cue.
-Sean

Sean -- "Throwing the cue" is normally done without letting the cue fall to the table. The grip pressure is just so slight that the momentum of the cue stick in the forward stroke makes the cue stick slip through the fingers a bit. Whatever gripping fingers one normally has under the butt remain there, but without applying pressure for the brief moment of the throw. I'm sure most of the practitioners mentioned in RonV's post (#75 in this thread) do not use the exaggerated, cue-dropped-on-the-table type of throw. My point, then, as it relates to your post, is that ANY wrist position can be used while throwing the cue in this way. One need not change his wrist position (be it "in," "straight," or "out") when stroking with a throw.

SpiderWebComm
08-16-2008, 06:19 AM
Sean -- "Throwing the cue" is normally done without letting the cue fall to the table. The grip pressure is just so slight that the momentum of the cue stick in the forward stroke makes the cue stick slip through the fingers a bit. Whatever gripping fingers one normally has under the butt remain there, but without applying pressure for the brief moment of the throw. I'm sure most of the practitioners mentioned in RonV's post (#75 in this thread) do not use the exaggerated, cue-dropped-on-the-table type of throw. My point, then, as it relates to your post, is that ANY wrist position can be used while throwing the cue in this way. One need not change his wrist position (be it "in," "straight," or "out") when stroking with a throw.

Although you're correct in saying you can successfully throw the cue without the "drop," both practitioners threw the cue and dropped it to the table as I demonstrated.

crawfish
08-16-2008, 07:55 AM
I have to say that I have thrown my cue like a spear at least once in my life. Into the woods after a $1700 dollar loss as I recall. Swore I'd never play again. Now, I have to go. It's my shot.

AtLarge
08-16-2008, 10:37 AM
Although you're correct in saying you can successfully throw the cue without the "drop," both practitioners threw the cue and dropped it to the table as I demonstrated.
Dave, I imagine when you say "both practitioners" you're referring to Mannino and Nagy. Ron also mentioned a bunch of other practitioners -- most of the filipinos and himself. I'm merely trying to point out that dropping the cue on the table is, as Ron says, the "exaggerated" version of throwing, and that it is not the way all (or even most) "throwers" do it. I think the exaggerated version may scare some people away from trying ANY version of throwing. I think doubters should try it both ways.

SpiderWebComm
08-16-2008, 04:11 PM
Dave, I imagine when you say "both practitioners" you're referring to Mannino and Nagy. Ron also mentioned a bunch of other practitioners -- most of the filipinos and himself. I'm merely trying to point out that dropping the cue on the table is, as Ron says, the "exaggerated" version of throwing, and that it is not the way all (or even most) "throwers" do it. I think the exaggerated version may scare some people away from trying ANY version of throwing. I think doubters should try it both ways.

Chuck

Agree completely. I made the video mostly to open peoples' eyes to....as monty python would say... something completely different. not for everyone... I'm just saying I throw for every 14.1 breakshot with high success.

SUPERSTAR
08-19-2008, 06:51 AM
I am still waiting (yawn) for the draw shot videos, and the 2 rails and out (yawn) high inside english videos.:rolleyes:

SpiderWebComm
08-19-2008, 06:53 AM
I am still waiting (yawn) for the draw shot videos, and the 2 rails and out (yawn) high inside english videos.:rolleyes:

Hey yawner--- I'm getting my cue re-tipped (my layered tip fell apart, see above. Not from throwing, but it must've been defective). I'm flying home from Boston tonight and should get it back tomorrow. You'll have your video, relax.

SUPERSTAR
08-19-2008, 06:54 AM
Hey yawner--- I'm getting my cue re-tipped (my layered tip fell apart, see above. Not from throwing, but it must've been defective). I'm flying home from Boston tonight and should get it back tomorrow. You'll have your video, relax.

Layered tip?!

Eewwwww!

SpiderWebComm
08-19-2008, 07:21 AM
Layered tip?!

Eewwwww!

This is the 2nd tip in a row that blew on me. I'm done with anything layered. I'd rather get a triangle and re-tip every other month.

Flex
08-19-2008, 07:44 AM
This is the 2nd tip in a row that blew on me. I'm done with anything layered. I'd rather get a triangle and re-tip every other month.

Try a milk dud too.

sfleinen
08-24-2008, 09:52 AM
Sean -- "Throwing the cue" is normally done without letting the cue fall to the table. The grip pressure is just so slight that the momentum of the cue stick in the forward stroke makes the cue stick slip through the fingers a bit. Whatever gripping fingers one normally has under the butt remain there, but without applying pressure for the brief moment of the throw. I'm sure most of the practitioners mentioned in RonV's post (#75 in this thread) do not use the exaggerated, cue-dropped-on-the-table type of throw. My point, then, as it relates to your post, is that ANY wrist position can be used while throwing the cue in this way. One need not change his wrist position (be it "in," "straight," or "out") when stroking with a throw.

AtLarge:

Well put, and I respect your rebuttal. (Apologies to you, btw, for the late reply to this post; lots and lots of reading material here in these forums and it'd been a while since I'd time to revisit this particular thread.)

One thing I wanted to make clear about my post was that I was trying to offer an explanation to why it might've been very difficult for some readers to have success with Dave's version of the throwing the cue technique -- i.e. the complete droppage of the cue. *Of course* Dave's exaggerated version of this technique would not be the end-result "polished" version of the technique that you allude to. Almost every new "very anomalous" technique gets "polished down" to a final product over time, and I'm sure in due time, practitioners of Dave's version of the "throwing the cue" technique will evolve the technique to a point where actually dropping the cue on the table is not needed or wanted. Obviously, the exaggerated version of actually fully letting go of the cue won't work when, e.g., jacked-up over an obstructed ball, or jacked-up over the rail (cue ball frozen to the rail), or even shooting with a level cue at a cue ball frozen to the rail (in this case the cue would fall to the floor). Two things are for sure with any new technique -- evolution and personalization. I actually discovered the accuracy of the "throwing the cue" technique by accident many years ago, when I was in a match, and I discovered when stroking through a shot, that my cue was diverting a little to the left (I'm right-handed) because the wrapless cue I was using at the time (a now long-lost Meucci) was "clinging" to the palm of my perspiring right hand. As I was stroking through, I felt the cue cling to the pad of flesh just behind the 1st knuckle of my index finger, and since this pad of flesh was physically positioned on the right-hand side of the cue's gripping surface, it was ever so slightly pulling the butt of the cue to the right, resulting in the cue tip being diverting to the left. (Yes, amazing that I had the lucidity to notice something minute like this during a stressful match.) I didn't have time for any kind of "stroke mechanics analysis" and instead had to employ an "emergency patch" to this boo-boo if I was to have any hope of finishing high in this tournament. So I thought, "Cue adhering to my hand on the follow-through? Let go of the cue completely and let it 'spear' the cue ball." I tried that (but catching the cue in flight after I was sure the cue ball had already left the cue's tip), and oh my gosh, it worked! I was hitting the center of the pockets, and I ended up finishing second in the tournament.

My point here is that evolution and personalization almost inevitably takes place with any new technique, no matter how unorthodox that technique is. My personal evolution with the "throwing the cue" technique resulted in a combination of the traditional slip-stroke (letting my grip hand slip backwards on the final backstroke) and "momentum slippage" (i.e. letting the cue's forward momentum cause the cue to slide a bit forward in my gripping hand, letting it "spear through" the cue ball and letting friction on the contact points in my grip hand catch it to stop it). Lately, I've even nixed the traditional slip-stroke phase altogether to try to simplify things, by merely moving my gripping hand further back on the cue to begin with, and this improved pin-point accuracy even further -- one less "moving part that could go wrong."

Hope this is a helpful follow-up / explanation!
-Sean