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View Full Version : Attn: Mr. Wilson and all American players


Grady
08-12-2008, 07:09 PM
In the name of pool, I beg you Mr. Wilson, to not post anything from the WPA. Their letter or manifesto is a better word, if you ask me, is deeply insulting to all of us American players who gave our very lifeblood for our great sport. The only so-called world championships they will honor are ones promoted and sanctioned by them? Give me a f---ing break. You all know what's next. Qualify only in Europe or Asia and the "invited" few's numbers become less and less and on and on ad nauseum.
These arrogant creeps disgust me and all of you should feel the same way.
Ok, I have a proposal for everyone who really, really loves pool. I'll take these cretons on, glad to do it but I'm going to need some help. I'm starting an Org. for One Pocket, Bank Pool and 14.1. I'm pretty sure I can raise $100,000 from interested business because when everything is said and done, they'll (including me and my family pool room) suffer too. I plan a series of events in 09' where I'll do my level best to get Pat
Fleming and Accu-stats to come and film matches, just like the old days. Pat's quality commentators, too, would be there. Look, the longer Mitch and Alan do commentary and Barry Hearn and Matt Braun do 8 man invitationals, we'll all suffer. Charlie Williams is a joke, too. I can't forget him.
All right, I'm ready. Light into me all you want. This has to done and it looks like it's me who has to do it.

How's this for maybe what they'd send to me? "Mr. Mathews, while we're aware of your many accomplishments, it has come to our attention that your four World One Pocket titles were from events not featuring any European players and two of them didn't have the word world in them and none of the four were sanctioned by us, the only recognized body in pool."

SpiderWebComm
08-12-2008, 07:11 PM
Go get'm Grady. F-them. I agree with you.

first...............

billiardspro
08-12-2008, 07:14 PM
Grady
The old days are over let it go...If you helped pool in america as much as you complain about it everyone in the world would be playing.

SpiderWebComm
08-12-2008, 07:18 PM
Grady
The old days are over let it go...If you helped pool in america as much as you complain about it everyone in the world would be playing.

Grady has a STRONG point. He's complaining for good reason. Everyone should be complaining. Sigel, Hopkins, Grady, Mizerak (RIP) whoever won a world title before the holier-than-thou WPA came about should have something to say.

To roll over and play dead on this is to be a sucker.

Fast Lenny
08-12-2008, 07:21 PM
Grady has a STRONG point. He's complaining for good reason. Everyone should be complaining. Sigel, Hopkins, Grady, Mizerak (RIP) whoever won a world title before the holier-than-thou WPA came about should have something to say.

To roll over and play dead on this is to be a sucker.
I agree,its not right for this to be done.These Champions have earned there place,I think they need to be recognized and given a chance to compete.They can all still play at at a high level obviously,just look at what happened when Sigel and Schmidt played. :smile:

billiardspro
08-12-2008, 07:21 PM
Grady has a STRONG point. He's complaining for good reason. Everyone should be complaining. Sigel, Hopkins, Grady, Mizerak (RIP) whoever won a world title before the holier-than-thou WPA came about should have something to say.

To roll over and play dead on this is to be a sucker.
All im saying is lately all this guy is doing is complaining everytime he posts.

billiardspro
08-12-2008, 07:24 PM
I agree,its not right for this to be done.These Champions have earned there place,I think they need to be recognized and given a chance to compete.They can all still play at at a high level obviously,just look at what happened when Sigel and Schmidt played. :smile:
Would you back Mike vs John in a long race say like 1500 for $10,000...I dont think you would find to many takers to back Mike in that race. Prob not even his buddy kevin

railfirst
08-12-2008, 07:25 PM
i agree with you grady fuk the WPA.
Billiardspro, if that WPA was all that and a bag of chips everyone in the world would be playing.


Ben

billiardspro
08-12-2008, 07:29 PM
i agree with you grady fuk the WPA.
Billiardspro, if that WPA was all that and a bag of chips everyone in the world would be playing.


Ben
Not saying that the WPA is all that. Every sancationing body could use some improvements some where im sure.

Fast Lenny
08-12-2008, 07:33 PM
Would you back Mike vs John in a long race say like 1500 for $10,000...I dont think you would find to many takers to back Mike in that race. Prob not even his buddy kevin
I bet on Sigel in that match,not 10K but I did bet a few hundred so I put my money where my mouth is and Sigel won.I also lost putting money on Kirkwood against Schmidt.In a long race I do believe Sigel would win,I am sure if John wanted the game with Sigel in a long race Mike has the money to post on his own and would have no trouble finding a backer.I think John is a great player and certainly has a chance,but I just like Mike when it comes to 14.1.God built Mike Sigel to be a pool player,regardless of his big ego he is a one of the greatest players to ever have lived. :wink:

poolcuemaster
08-12-2008, 07:33 PM
Yea this is a joke Siegel has no world titles and Earl only has one, I bet the upper level management of the WPA does not have one person who has won even a tournament of regional level. How can any American agree that Mosconi and Lassiter among many others are now to be considered just average players who couldn't win a world title, that is total Bull$$hit.

Leonard

SpiderWebComm
08-12-2008, 07:38 PM
Would you back Mike vs John in a long race say like 1500 for $10,000...I dont think you would find to many takers to back Mike in that race. Prob not even his buddy kevin


I don't see the pros TRIPPING over each other to gamble with Sigel or Hopkins. No matter who they are. Hoppy finished 5th the last two years at the world 14.1 and he doesn't even play anymore.

By the way, Schmidt and a group of us talked about this in depth the other day. He thinks it's funny how everyone wants to send him in against Sigel in 14.1.... as if Sigel can't put up a few 150's or 200's. No one is a lock against Sigel in that game.

These guys can PLAY.

JimS
08-12-2008, 07:40 PM
How about those who want to help Grady in his brave venture get behind him and try to provide what he asks and those who don't like it just stay out of it and try to not bring down the building before the footings are set.

Billiardpro.. you are doing what is done every time somebody tries to do something... complain until it falls apart. DO something postive or just be quiet and try to not spoil something that might work if the nay-sayers would just give it a chance.

C'mon man.. you're not losing anything by just letting others give it a try. Why not stop knocking their action.

Terry Ardeno
08-12-2008, 07:44 PM
In the name of pool, I beg you Mr. Wilson, to not post anything from the WPA. Their letter or manifesto is a better word, if you ask me, is deeply insulting to all of us American players who gave our very lifeblood for our great sport. The only so-called world championships they will honor are ones promoted and sanctioned by them? Give me a f---ing break. You all know what's next. Qualify only in Europe or Asia and the "invited" few's numbers become less and less and on and on ad nauseum.
These arrogant creeps disgust me and all of you should feel the same way.
Ok, I have a proposal for everyone who really, really loves pool. I'll take these cretons on, glad to do it but I'm going to need some help. I'm starting an Org. for One Pocket, Bank Pool and 14.1. I'm pretty sure I can raise $100,000 from interested business because when everything is said and done, they'll (including me and my family pool room) suffer too. I plan a series of events in 09' where I'll do my level best to get Pat
Fleming and Accu-stats to come and film matches, just like the old days. Pat's quality commentators, too, would be there. Look, the longer Mitch and Alan do commentary and Barry Hearn and Matt Braun do 8 man invitationals, we'll all suffer. Charlie Williams is a joke, too. I can't forget him.
All right, I'm ready. Light into me all you want. This has to done and it looks like it's me who has to do it.

How's this for maybe what they'd send to me? "Mr. Mathews, while we're aware of your many accomplishments, it has come to our attention that your four World One Pocket titles were from events not featuring any European players and two of them didn't have the word world in them and none of the four were sanctioned by us, the only recognized body in pool."

Well stated Grady.

I think the main point is the WPA would very much like a monopoly on the "World Championship" title. Remember in the older days of boxing, when there was just one champion in every weight class? Then the WBA, the WBC, the IBF, the WBO, etc came upon the scene and even though there are now "splintered" titles with multiple champions, boxing is thriving and boxers are getting bigger and bigger purses (paydays, not literally purses :eek: ). My point is that if we have more than one sanctioning body in pool, then that means more tournaments, which means more potential paydays for more pro players. If the WPA could have it's way, I'm afraid that they would severley curtail many of the tournaments that other promoting bodies title "World Championships." Since our BCA wasn't too concerned about keeping the U.S. Open 14.1 Championship going or the World 9 Ball Championships going, I'm all for your idea. Also, I don't think the title "World Championship" is de-valued just because the WPA did not promote said event.

Here's hoping your plan works out just as you envision.

SpiderWebComm
08-12-2008, 07:48 PM
Here's a wild and crazy concept........


You want a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP????????


Make it an OPEN event and let the WORLD FIGHT IT OUT.....The best player wins.

How can they say the best player in the world wins it when it's a short list invite PAH----LEEEEEEEEEEZE.

PS. Their way, if they dislike a player... they can perma-blackball them from competition. It's a joke. OPEN IT UP YOU SCARED TO DEATH NITHEADS!

cajunbarboxplyr
08-12-2008, 08:35 PM
Kick that ass Grady!

DoubleA
08-12-2008, 08:41 PM
Go get'm Grady. F-them. I agree with you.

first...............
Grady, I support you in your effort, and I feel the majority of AZB's will also. I agree with the above quote.:angry: :angry: :angry:

Johnnyt
08-12-2008, 09:23 PM
About two years ago on here I wrote a thread about having a National tour in the US for US players only (just like most other countries have). Well I got flamed pretty good for even thinking of doing that. Some said we would miss Efern and other great player from around the world. Others called me some unkind things that I'm still stinging from (NOT). Anyway, does an all US tour look any better now? Johnnyt

AzHousePro
08-12-2008, 09:37 PM
I am behind you 100% Grady. No one who has worked to accomplish something over the years ever wants those accomplishments diminished.

I sincerely hope that Mr Wilson doesn't post anything else like that on his website ever again.

Mike

ribdoner
08-12-2008, 09:42 PM
I am behind you 100% Grady. No one who has worked to accomplish something over the years ever wants those accomplishments diminished.

I sincerely hope that Mr Wilson doesn't post anything else like that on his website ever again.

Mike



:duck: ............:)

J. Learned Hand
08-12-2008, 09:46 PM
What gives the WPA the right to determine who is and isn't a world champion? How long has the WPA been around? What gives them the right to strip a title from someone, so to speak?

These and other questions deserve serious consideration in my opinion. If the WPA has been around for 15 years (?), I guess that means there are only 15 world champions. Accordingly, I guess Luther, Jersey Red, Ronnie and others from way back are now "stripped" of the ever-elusive titles they won long ago. Moreover, Grady, The Miz, Allen H. and Sigel, men who shaped American pool as we know it today, are out as well.

The WPA has gone too far. If they want to be the governing body for future world champion monikers that's okay if the players agree. However, reaching into the past is improper and should not be allowed. This is especially so considering they probably weren't even around when champions like Grady won world titles in the first place.

I'm with Grady on this. The WPA has crossed the line.

ShootingArts
08-12-2008, 09:46 PM
that's what a low profile will get ya! :D :D :D

Hu



I am behind you 100% Grady. No one who has worked to accomplish something over the years ever wants those accomplishments diminished.

I sincerely hope that Mr Wilson doesn't post anything else like that on his website ever again.

Mike

AzHousePro
08-12-2008, 09:53 PM
A low profile and multiple conversations with Grady over the years.

Not as bad as when Mike Gulyassi argued with Holly saying that he knew for a fact that Scott Taylor owned AzB.

Mike

that's what a low profile will get ya! :D :D :D

Hu

Fatboy
08-12-2008, 10:02 PM
In the name of pool, I beg you Mr. Wilson, to not post anything from the WPA. Their letter or manifesto is a better word, if you ask me, is deeply insulting to all of us American players who gave our very lifeblood for our great sport. The only so-called world championships they will honor are ones promoted and sanctioned by them? Give me a f---ing break. You all know what's next. Qualify only in Europe or Asia and the "invited" few's numbers become less and less and on and on ad nauseum.
These arrogant creeps disgust me and all of you should feel the same way.
Ok, I have a proposal for everyone who really, really loves pool. I'll take these cretons on, glad to do it but I'm going to need some help. I'm starting an Org. for One Pocket, Bank Pool and 14.1. I'm pretty sure I can raise $100,000 from interested business because when everything is said and done, they'll (including me and my family pool room) suffer too. I plan a series of events in 09' where I'll do my level best to get Pat
Fleming and Accu-stats to come and film matches, just like the old days. Pat's quality commentators, too, would be there. Look, the longer Mitch and Alan do commentary and Barry Hearn and Matt Braun do 8 man invitationals, we'll all suffer. Charlie Williams is a joke, too. I can't forget him.
All right, I'm ready. Light into me all you want. This has to done and it looks like it's me who has to do it.

How's this for maybe what they'd send to me? "Mr. Mathews, while we're aware of your many accomplishments, it has come to our attention that your four World One Pocket titles were from events not featuring any European players and two of them didn't have the word world in them and none of the four were sanctioned by us, the only recognized body in pool."



I agree with Grady 100%, What I like about Grady is he holds his ground. Some might say its complaining but thats not the case. Grady has a good point here plain and simple. This isnt the time to criticize Grady. And on that note I have nothing but respect for Grady-he might come off a bit harsh from time to time, but I know the man behind the keyboard and I'm damn proud to call him a friend!!!!!! its just his style on the keyboard, it truely dosent reflect his personality-and i'm not a kiss ass, I have pleanty of friends who play better than him, or are more famous etc., I respect Grady for what he has done, Anyone wwho has been to one of his tournments will clearly understand me.

Colin Colenso
08-12-2008, 10:11 PM
FWIW, I've never been a fan of centralized monopolies. That's why I don't want to see billiard sports in the Olympics. That strengthens and bureaucratizes a centralized monopoly.

Anyone can run a World Championship, but only the ones that attract the biggest fields and best players will be held with high regard by the pundits.

Good luck to rival events / organizations. I hope they work out some better ways to present and market the games. An organization that does this the best has a good future.

Anyway, that's my take ;) Good luck with the events Grady!

Colin

memikey
08-12-2008, 11:16 PM
In the name of pool, I beg you Mr. Wilson, to not post anything from the WPA. Their letter or manifesto is a better word, if you ask me, is deeply insulting to all of us American players who gave our very lifeblood for our great sport. The only so-called world championships they will honor are ones promoted and sanctioned by them? Give me a f---ing break. You all know what's next. Qualify only in Europe or Asia and the "invited" few's numbers become less and less and on and on ad nauseum.
These arrogant creeps disgust me and all of you should feel the same way.
Ok, I have a proposal for everyone who really, really loves pool. I'll take these cretons on, glad to do it but I'm going to need some help. I'm starting an Org. for One Pocket, Bank Pool and 14.1. I'm pretty sure I can raise $100,000 from interested business because when everything is said and done, they'll (including me and my family pool room) suffer too. I plan a series of events in 09' where I'll do my level best to get Pat
Fleming and Accu-stats to come and film matches, just like the old days. Pat's quality commentators, too, would be there. Look, the longer Mitch and Alan do commentary and Barry Hearn and Matt Braun do 8 man invitationals, we'll all suffer. Charlie Williams is a joke, too. I can't forget him.
All right, I'm ready. Light into me all you want. This has to done and it looks like it's me who has to do it.

How's this for maybe what they'd send to me? "Mr. Mathews, while we're aware of your many accomplishments, it has come to our attention that your four World One Pocket titles were from events not featuring any European players and two of them didn't have the word world in them and none of the four were sanctioned by us, the only recognized body in pool."

By all means "take them on" but are you clear what the objectives of the proposed new 'org' would be and how you would plan to achieve those objectives?

There isn't a lot of substance in the above post on the subject of future alternative means of identifying/recognising world champions for people to get behind.

Justifiable indignance at an apparent WPA slight of past achievements is one thing which it is quite easy for people to sympathise with hence the multitude of posts basically saying "right on!" to that, few could or would disagree with the spirit of that. The WPA have certainly shot themselves in the foot on that count, no question. The future identification of world champions is quite another matter.

A vague suggestion that you will organise a series of pool events in USA in three specific disciplines only which will in some way challenge the WPA's future right to define world champions in those or other disciplines isn't going to cut it once the whooping and waving about the insult to past champions dies down. Your strange apparent implication that the quality of filming and commentating on events somehow places a merit value on the champions which that event produces is in particular almost surreal.

Fully appreciate it's just an idea at the moment "to take them on" but a start in seeking support might be to explain in general terms at least what features of the participant list and/or the qualifying procedures in your series of events do you anticipate would lead to more pool enthusiasts worldwide considering your champions to be any more world champions than than the victors in any equivalent WPA sanctioned world championship?

Or perhaps you mean "take them on" in the sense that you will simply organise a series of events that will be more attractive to the public and to the players than the WPA equivalent but not even purport to call itself a world championship?

Don't get me wrong, not in any way anti what you might like to to do, quite the reverse.........but you perhaps have to come to terms with the reality that one of the very reasons why the WPA are today in a position to do exactly what's annoying you (and others and not just in USA) so much is because you and your peers sat on your behinds and adopted the tunnel visioned view that the world would forever simply come to USA for pool and would forever be guided by USA legends as regards who can and cannot be validly considered world champions. If you are going to sit up and take notice now you're going to need a little more than a bit of grumping about being slighted in order to garner the support needed to challenge an entrenched organisation with established tentacles in every corner of the globe.

BigDogatLarge
08-12-2008, 11:34 PM
By all means "take them on" but are you clear what the objectives of the proposed new 'org' would be and how you would plan to achieve those objectives?

There isn't a lot of substance in the above post on the subject of future alternative means of identifying/recognising world champions for people to get behind.

Justifiable indignance at an apparent WPA slight of past achievements is one thing which it is quite easy for people to sympathise with hence the multitude of posts basically saying "right on!" to that, few could or would disagree with the spirit of that. The WPA have certainly shot themselves in the foot on that count, no question. The future identification of world champions is quite another matter.

A vague suggestion that you will organise a series of pool events in USA in three specific disciplines only which will in some way challenge the WPA's future right to define world champions in those or other disciplines isn't going to cut it once the whooping and waving about the insult to past champions dies down. Your strange apparent implication that the quality of filming and commentating on events somehow places a merit value on the champions which that event produces is in particular almost surreal.

Fully appreciate it's just an idea at the moment "to take them on" but a start in seeking support might be to explain in general terms at least what features of the participant list and/or the qualifying procedures in your series of events do you anticipate would lead to more pool enthusiasts worldwide considering your champions to be any more world champions than than the victors in any equivalent WPA sanctioned world championship?

Or perhaps you mean "take them on" in the sense that you will simply organise a series of events that will be more attractive to the public and to the players than the WPA equivalent but not even purport to call itself a world championship?

Don't get me wrong, not in any way anti what you might like to to do, quite the reverse.........but you perhaps have to come to terms with the reality that one of the very reasons why the WPA are today in a position to do exactly what's annoying you (and others and not just in USA) so much is because you and your peers sat on your behinds and adopted the tunnel visioned view that the world would forever simply come to USA for pool and would forever be guided by USA legends as regards who can and cannot be validly considered world champions. If you are going to sit up and take notice now you're going to need a little more than a bit of grumping about being slighted in order to garner the support needed to challenge an entrenched organisation with established tentacles in every corner of the globe.

I think the time is now to make something happen for cuesports on the world stage. You have the pinoy's having a problem with "leadership" in their country. You have the WPA making decisions for all the people that play or are involved in cuesports. How many Americans are on the board of directors of the WPA? Who is there supporting our interests for this country? There are a lot of people on this forum that have been involved in pool for 25 years +. I propose that we as people in America form an association including (in no particular order) Jay Helfert, JohnnyT, memikey, (even though he is in another country, he has a good grasp of the situation) Fatboy, Grady, Allen Hopkins, Mike Sigel, and Terry Ardeno. There are others as well, but I like the way these men think and how their knowledge of pool in this country works. Once all the people involved come to a position on how things should be run, we petition WPA for a place on the board so as to have a say in the proceedings concerning America's place in cuesport community. IMO

Dwight

jay helfert
08-12-2008, 11:48 PM
You can "designate" anyone you please to be a World Champion, if you are a sanctioning body. Just look at what has happened in boxing with all their various associations. I have no problem with the world champions listed by the WPA. They all won titles over strong fields and deserve their honors.

But I also have been a witness to many other so called World Championships during the last 40 years and let me tell you, there are some real good players missing from the WPA lists. A few who deserve recognition (that I saw play and win major championships) include HAROLD WORST, LUTHER LASSITER, Joe Balsis, Irving Crane, Eddie Kelly, BUDDY HALL, STEVE MIZERAK, MIKE SIGEL, Allen Hopkins and Jim Rempe. The ones who I hi-lited are among the greatest players of all time. And the other ones aren't far behind. ALL are World Champions in my book!

Maybe the tournaments they won weren't sanctioned by any organization, but they had to beat all the greatest players on Earth to win them. That should count for something.

manwon
08-13-2008, 12:33 AM
Grady
The old days are over let it go...If you helped pool in america as much as you complain about it everyone in the world would be playing.

Sometimes it better to say nothing, than to open your mouth and prove you have no clue!!!!!!!;)

memikey
08-13-2008, 12:35 AM
Dwight.......the WPA allow only one body to join and speak on behalf of each region. For North America it is BCA. Ed Smith of BCA is (or was, I don't know current status) on the WPA board

BCA are supposed to be the voice of North America on matters appertaining to WPA. They are supposed to be (and probably are) pursuing most of what you envisage other parties doing. The BCA apparently formed a specially elected committee in October last year with the goal of uniting the pro player organizations and youth programmes in North America to participate more effectively in the global growth of billiards as a sport. This was directly related to the subject of the WPA.

Their committee consisted of :-

Ivan lee, Fran Crimi, Ed Smith (BCA)
Dale Brimscombe (CBSA)
Laura Smith (BEF)
Jeff D'Olezal (NWPA)
Frank Alvarez (UPA)
Dawn Hopkins (WPBA)

As a separate matter I think Bob Jewett has supplied special technical rule drafting assistance to WPA also.

JimS
08-13-2008, 04:37 AM
Have a tournament. Give it a name. Whoever wins it was the winner on that day.

The only prestiege will come from the strength of the field and the history on which the tournament rests. After 40 or 50 years of consitently strong fields the tournament will have some prestiege and winning might be worth of the title world championship.

Is the winner of the Derby City all around the world champion? That's about as close as you can come, imo, and it still doesn't ring quite true. Hold the same tournament the next month and the next month and there will be different winners. Prior winners might not even place.

The title "World Champion" just does not mean much... not to me at least. It just describes who won a match on that particular day.

So, again, I say.. just hold a great tournament. Call it what you want and call the tournament winner the champ if you want.

Or.. hold a tour and have a points race. Now we're talking consistent winners. Maybe even with strong fields. Like the PGA $$$$ winner list.

Scaramouche
08-13-2008, 05:25 AM
Me, not an American, just stand outside the fence and watch the antics. For anyone not American it is a fascinating show.

American posters b**** about problems of their disorganized sport, but refuse to create any organization that would bring order out of chaos. But many will create their own organizations, adding to the chaos

Reminds me of monkeys in the zoo, hurling excrement at each other and anyone within range.

ShootingArts
08-13-2008, 05:29 AM
Many sports have single event world championships and the champion is recognized as the current world champion until that event is held again or even another event that doesn't call itself a world championship but is pretty universally recognized. They named this event after an event held in a small country between warring city states many centuries ago. It is full of politics and corruption, cheating, every wrong you can name but yet if you want to be accepted as the best in the world that is where you have to be at every four years for many athletes. In the odd two years a world champion is crowned at a world championship, the other two years a world champion is crowned at this event that isn't even called a world championship. Isn't that odd?

Grady is absolutely correct that if he calls his event the World Championships and it is well attended and well documented it will gain respect. In pool as in many sports there are only a handful of players considered at the top of the game at any one time. Get most of those players to an event and enough more to fill out a field and the event is indeed worthy of calling a world championship. Of course I seem to recall someone with money and the power it brings putting on a single match with an over the hill woman and an over the hill man calling it a world championship and the winner the world champion and best in the world. No doubt many outside the sport gave some creditability to the claim too. It was on TV, it must be true!

Hu

WilleeCue
08-13-2008, 05:36 AM
Here's a wild and crazy concept........


You want a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP????????


Make it an OPEN event and let the WORLD FIGHT IT OUT.....The best player wins.



You mean to say it aint like this already?
Then the title is BS if even one good player is denied the chance to compete.
Perhaps the WPA used the WWF as its model as how to run its biz.

crawfish
08-13-2008, 05:59 AM
Would you back Mike vs John in a long race say like 1500 for $10,000...I dont think you would find to many takers to back Mike in that race. Prob not even his buddy kevin
I don't know you, but you're probably a young fellow by your posts. YOU COULD STONE COLD BUST ME at this game when Mike was in his prime. Hell, you could win quite a bit, even now. I know it was a short race, but what does it take to convince you that Mike can play? Should've seen him in the 80's. Show some respect. I don't even like Mike. But..... Ah, fu#$ it. Show me $10,000 and just a little weight and ask John if he thinks he'll like it. I know Sigel will.

Ste
08-13-2008, 06:00 AM
I think the time is now to make something happen for cuesports on the world stage. You have the pinoy's having a problem with "leadership" in their country. You have the WPA making decisions for all the people that play or are involved in cuesports. How many Americans are on the board of directors of the WPA? Who is there supporting our interests for this country? There are a lot of people on this forum that have been involved in pool for 25 years +. I propose that we as people in America form an association including (in no particular order) Jay Helfert, JohnnyT, memikey, (even though he is in another country, he has a good grasp of the situation) Fatboy, Grady, Allen Hopkins, Mike Sigel, and Terry Ardeno. There are others as well, but I like the way these men think and how their knowledge of pool in this country works. Once all the people involved come to a position on how things should be run, we petition WPA for a place on the board so as to have a say in the proceedings concerning America's place in cuesport community. IMO

Dwight

North America has two out of eight members on the WPA Board of Directors :

Fran Crimi
Ed Smith

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=director

Craig Fales
08-13-2008, 06:18 AM
Me, not an American, just stand outside the fence and watch the antics. For anyone not American it is a fascinating show.

American posters b**** about problems of their disorganized sport, but refuse to create any organization that would bring order out of chaos. But many will create their own organizations, adding to the chaos

Reminds me of monkeys in the zoo, hurling excrement at each other and anyone within range.
Sadly this is where AMERICAN pool is at these days...having the WPA is good IMHO....but what's needed is people on there board looking out for the History of American pool, with their listing of "World Champions" it seems it hasn't been done...what's needed on THIS day is an organization for AMERICAN pool and their players...perhaps what Grady needs to do is go all the way an encompass all games in it...Keep these corrupt tours from flourishing and BOYCOTT them...

Terry Ardeno
08-13-2008, 08:22 AM
In the name of pool, I beg you Mr. Wilson, to not post anything from the WPA. Their letter or manifesto is a better word, if you ask me, is deeply insulting to all of us American players who gave our very lifeblood for our great sport. The only so-called world championships they will honor are ones promoted and sanctioned by them? Give me a f---ing break. You all know what's next. Qualify only in Europe or Asia and the "invited" few's numbers become less and less and on and on ad nauseum.
These arrogant creeps disgust me and all of you should feel the same way.
Ok, I have a proposal for everyone who really, really loves pool. I'll take these cretons on, glad to do it but I'm going to need some help. I'm starting an Org. for One Pocket, Bank Pool and 14.1. I'm pretty sure I can raise $100,000 from interested business because when everything is said and done, they'll (including me and my family pool room) suffer too. I plan a series of events in 09' where I'll do my level best to get Pat
Fleming and Accu-stats to come and film matches, just like the old days. Pat's quality commentators, too, would be there. Look, the longer Mitch and Alan do commentary and Barry Hearn and Matt Braun do 8 man invitationals, we'll all suffer. Charlie Williams is a joke, too. I can't forget him.
All right, I'm ready. Light into me all you want. This has to done and it looks like it's me who has to do it.

How's this for maybe what they'd send to me? "Mr. Mathews, while we're aware of your many accomplishments, it has come to our attention that your four World One Pocket titles were from events not featuring any European players and two of them didn't have the word world in them and none of the four were sanctioned by us, the only recognized body in pool."


Grady,
The biggest difference between you and the WPA is that you are a real bonafide lover of our great sport and not a politician.

As I said on another thread, say for example that American style football (the NFL) started in the USA and the Super Bowel (world championship) has been played exclusively here in America.
Then say that in about 50-100 years from now, American style football has grown to be wildly popular all over the world. Then, in about 50-100 yrs from now, a new football sanctioning body with its genesis in Europe or Asia starts a new football federation and proclaims that all previous Super Bowel winners are not legit because this new organization did not sanction them. That, in a nutshell, is what is going on here with the WPA.

For them to even remotely or vaguely imply that such storied champions such as Ralph Greenleaf, Frank Taberski, Jimmy Caras, Willie Mosconi, Joe Balsis, Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins, Earl Strickland & company have not earned their World Champion titles is an arrogant and totally disrespectful view to hold. How, pray tell, will they ever gain credibility and fan backing with such preposterous thinking?

If the powers that be at the WPA were really lovers and fans of our great sport, they would have a much higher regard for the sport's rich history and the great champions of the past. But apparently, even though they claim to be THE foremost world body of pool, they have never heard of such disciplines as One Pocket or Bank pool. In the small world of the WPA, pool (9 ball) started with them in 1990. Your 4 World Championships mean nothing to them. Other legendary champions unfortunate enough to make their mark in pool before 1990 did it all for nothing....And we're supposed to buy into that and back them with our support???

Maybe the BCA (who has done next to nothing to sponsor World Championships) can induct them into the Hall of Fame for their meritorious service to pooldom by inventing 9 ball in 1990!
__________________

Ktown D
08-13-2008, 08:34 AM
Grady,
The biggest difference between you and the WPA is that you are a real bonafide lover of our great sport and not a politician.

As I said on another thread, say for example that American style football (the NFL) started in the USA and the Super Bowel (world championship) has been played exclusively here in America.
Then say that in about 50-100 years from now, American style football has grown to be wildly popular all over the world. Then, in about 50-100 yrs from now, a new football sanctioning body with its genesis in Europe or Asia starts a new football federation and proclaims that all previous Super Bowel winners are not legit because this new organization did not sanction them. That, in a nutshell, is what is going on here with the WPA.

For them to even remotely or vaguely imply that such storied champions such as Ralph Greenleaf, Frank Taberski, Jimmy Caras, Willie Mosconi, Joe Balsis, Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins, Earl Strickland & company have not earned their World Champion titles is an arrogant and totally disrespectful view to hold. How, pray tell, will they ever gain credibility and fan backing with such preposterous thinking?

If the powers that be at the WPA were really lovers and fans of our great sport, they would have a much higher regard for the sport's rich history and the great champions of the past. But apparently, even though they claim to be THE foremost world body of pool, they have never heard of such disciplines as One Pocket or Bank pool. In the small world of the WPA, pool (9 ball) started with them in 1990. Your 4 World Championships mean nothing to them. Other legendary champions unfortunate enough to make their mark in pool before 1990 did it all for nothing....And we're supposed to buy into that and back them with our support???

Maybe the BCA (who has done next to nothing to sponsor World Championships) can induct them into the Hall of Fame for their meritorious service to pooldom by inventing 9 ball in 1990!
__________________
Great post Terry but one little typo can bring all of the "big a-holes" out of the woodwork.:smile:

Super Bowl<-- championship football
Super Bowel<-- extraordinary colon

pool4u
08-13-2008, 08:38 AM
Great post Terry but one little typo can bring all of the "big a-holes" out of the woodwork.:smile:

Super Bowl<-- championship football
Super Bowel<-- extraordinary colon

Can't


stop


laughing.


Need


help.

Terry Ardeno
08-13-2008, 08:52 AM
Great post Terry but one little typo can bring all of the "big a-holes" out of the woodwork.:smile:

Super Bowl<-- championship football
Super Bowel<-- extraordinary colon

Ooops!
I never claimed to be a football fan. When I looked at it, it didn't look right. I hit spell check to make sure I spelled it right and it didn't come up red....

For being a dummmy, I'll just leave it as is. Nice catch, I guess!:D

It's nice to laugh. Thanks buddy!

BigDogatLarge
08-13-2008, 10:09 AM
I just sent this note to the two board members. I want to thank Memikey and Ste for telling me the answers to my questions in the previous post.

Dear Madam and Sir,

I am writing to tell you about the reaction to the recent WPA decision concerning world championship status. The people in this forum have expressed ideas and I wanted you both to know what is on the minds of the actual player, room owners, and champions of the various cuesports. Please read the entire forum and feel free to join in the discussion with us on this subject. Please wear your thick skin, as there may be a certain level of passion shown for our sport. Here is the link,

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=109328

Respectfully,

Dwight Sisson
850-510-3103

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 10:22 AM
You mean to say it aint like this already?
Then the title is BS if even one good player is denied the chance to compete.
Perhaps the WPA used the WWF as its model as how to run its biz.

I believe Hopkins recently tried to get into the world championships (10-ball maybe?? he didn't specify) and was denied.

He said, "C'mon now. I'll even put up an entry fee to play - I just wanna play."

(DENIED)

He then mentions to me, "Dave, I only have at least 5 world championships and finished 5th in the last two world 14.1s....c'mon now....WHO ARE THEY INVITING??????????????"

WPA..... if you guys are reading this thread..... MAYBE, just MAYBE you should add precursor champions to your short little list. On the blind, I'd put Hoppy in against a HIGH % your entire list in an all-around and he can't get an invite?????? Save yourselves from this embarrassment and fix the problem--- make your world titles open events or invite past world champions.

It's a joke.

GO GRADY....

Roy Steffensen
08-13-2008, 10:32 AM
Spider:

I am not defending WPA here, but will try to explain how the system works in Europe.

For each World Championship each continent gets spots, and it is up to the regional federation to pick the players. For example the European spots are given by the ranking of the Eurotour. (Last year Europe had about 40 spots) (For those of you wondering why so many spots for Europe, Europe is a continent consisting of more than 50 countries. During the European Championships played this week more than 700 players from 40 countries compete)

That means that for example Norway do not have any players in the World Ten Ball Championship, World 8-ball Championship and World 9-ball Championship, simply because we don't have players that participate in every tournament at the Eurotour (7 during a year, spread all over Europe), and because of that they fail to finish high enough on the ranking.

Because of this system used in Europe, a top player such as Darren Appleton didn't have a spot in the past 2 World 9-ball Championship, or the last 2 World 8-ball Championships, and was forced to play the qualifiers the week before these tournaments. And those qualifiers are HARD. Last year, WC 9-ball 2007, 160 players from 23 countries participated in Manila for the last 10 spots. (so does this mean that the World Championship had 128 players + 160 from the qualifiers, which is about 275 players?)

Was Darren good enough to participate? Of course! He's even good enough to win the tournaments. But the rules in Europe are made in stone - if you don't participate on the Eurotour, which is open for any player from all over the world (www.eurotour.nu) (or finish top 8 in European 9-ball Championship), you won't get a spot.

I think the system for Europe is fair, and what is even better with it, it makes a strong tour! The Eurotour has almost 256 players on every tournament. (Darren has been forced to compete on the eurotour, and his reward has now been some great results and $$ + now he is high enough on the ranking, so he's in for the next Championships)

Now it is up to the players, tours, organizations in USA and North America to get together and decide how they will use their spots, and make it known to all players minimum a year in advance.

Tournaments like the World Championship can't be open to all players. It has to have a limit, just like the US Open, who has a limit of 256 players. They need to know in advance that they can finish the tournament the day they have said the final will be played.

Perhaps 128 spots on the WC are too few, but then one of WPA's "sub-federation", for example BCA, can ask them to make it 256 instead...

EDIT: with the system used by Europe, it's no doubt that Europe send the players that have been performing well the last year, and deserve a spot. If a former European Champion doesn't play good enough anymore, or doesn't compete as much as he used to, he's out. You need to perform well to grab a spot from Europe!

If every continent had for example 7 open tournaments with 256 players on every tournament, and when the season ended they sent the top 32 players on the ranking, no one could complain about the "invites", because if you want to play the World Championship you have to play on the tour!

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 11:22 AM
Spider:

I am not defending WPA here, but till try to explain how their system works in Europe.

For each World Championship each continent gets spots, and it is up to the regional federation to pick the players. For example the European spots are given by the ranking of the Eurotour.

That means that for example Norway do not have any players in the World Ten Ball Championship, World 8-ball Championship and World 9-ball Championship, because we don't have players that participate in every tournament at the Eurotour (7 during a year), and because of that they fail to finish high enough on the ranking.

Because of this system used in Europe, players as Darren Appleton didn't have a spot in the past 2 World 9-ball Championship, or the last 2 World 8-ball Championships, and was forced to play the qualifiers.

Was Darren good enough to participate? Of course! He's even good enough to win the tournaments. But the rules in Europe is made in stone - if you don't participate on the eurotour (or finish high in European Championship), you won't get a spot.

I think the system for Europe is fair, and what is even better with it, it makes a strong tour! The Eurotour has almost 256 players on every tournament. (Darren has been forced to compete on the eurotour, and his reward has now been some great results and $$ + now he is high enough on the ranking, so he's in for the next Championships)

Now it is up to the players, tours, organizations in USA and North America to get together and decide how they will use their spots, and make it known to all players a year in advance.

Tournaments like the World Championship can't be open to all players. It has to have a limit, just like the US Open, who has a limit of 256 players. They need to know in advance that they can finish the tournament the day they have said the final will be played.

Perhaps 128 spots on the WC are too few, but then one of WPA's "sub-federation", for example BCA, can ask them to make it 256 instead...

EDIT: with the system used by Europe, it's no doubt that Europe send the players that have been performing well the last year, and deserve a spot. If a former European Champion doesn't play good enough anymore, or doesn't compete as much as he used to, he's out. You need to perform well to grab a spot from Europe!

If every continent had for example 7 open tournaments with 256 players on every tournament, and when the season ended they sent the top 32 players on the ranking, no one could complain about the "invites", because if you want to play the World Championship you have to play on the tour!

Educating. But still not as good as having an open event. Come one, come all, pay $2500 or whatever to play if you're not on the list and play.

If someone isn't up to par, big deal--- they're donating to the winners.

I like what you say, makes sense. But for the life of me, I think OPEN events are most telling.

Roy Steffensen
08-13-2008, 11:37 AM
Educating. But still not as good as having an open event. Come one, come all, pay $2500 or whatever to play if you're not on the list and play.

If someone isn't up to par, big deal--- they're donating to the winners.

I like what you say, makes sense. But for the life of me, I think OPEN events are most telling.

A big part of me agree with you, but a small part disagree.

The small part says:

160 players played the qualifiers the week before the World Championship, to qualify for the MAIN FIELD, of 128 players.

That means that during those 2 weeks 128 + 150 players participated in the tournament, but only 128 made it to the main event.

If you think like this, then all the 900 players that competed in the Eurotour during last season was also part of the qualifiers, so in fact more than 1100 players have had their fair chance of qualify for the MAIN FIELD of the World Championship.

I look at the World Championship as the most prestigous tournament where the BEST players from the PAST year will compete, and to make sure it is the best players who compete, they make it real hard to qualify to the MAIN FIELD. To qualify you have to play good all year, not only the week that the Championship is organized...


The big part of me wants the World Championship to be open, but that is mostly because then even I can play in it, and can perhaps play Earl Strickland or Shane Van Boening etc...

But I think the most prestigous way to do it is if each continent had strong tours, and the top players were sent to this FINAL tournament every year, to determine who's the worlds best player for that year, not only that week...

SpiderWebComm
08-13-2008, 11:41 AM
A big part of me agree with you, but a small part disagree.

The small part says:

160 players played the qualifiers the week before the World Championship, to qualify for the MAIN FIELD, of 128 players.

That means that during those 2 weeks 128 + 150 players participated in the tournament, but only 128 made it to the main event.

If you think like this, then all the 900 players that competed in the Eurotour during last season was also part of the qualifiers, so in fact more than 1100 players have had their fair chance of qualify for the MAIN FIELD of the World Championship.

I look at the World Championship as the most prestigous tournament where the BEST players from the PAST year will compete, and to make sure it is the best players who compete, they make it real hard to qualify to the MAIN FIELD. To qualify you have to play good all year, not only the week that the Championship is organized...


The big part of me wants the World Championship to be open, but that is mostly because then even I can play in it, and can perhaps play Earl Strickland or Shane Van Boening etc...

But I think the most prestigous way to do it is if each continent had strong tours, and the top players were sent to this FINAL tournament every year, to determine who's the worlds best player for that year, not only that week...

My only comeback is: many of the strong-playing ex-champs don't have the time to run around and play in qualifiers. They'd rather pony up a few grand to "just play." I think if you've won a past world-championship, you should have the option to just pay and play.

No matter what anyone says, the U.S. is "tour-lacking" for sure. While we're messed up internally, let our nit-dogging players pony up some euros and play a little bit :)

Thanks for the posts- good info.

Roy Steffensen
08-13-2008, 11:43 AM
My only comeback is: many of the strong-playing ex-champs don't have the time to run around and play in qualifiers. They'd rather pony up a few grand to "just play." I think if you've won a past world-championship, you should have the option to just pay and play.

No matter what anyone says, the U.S. is "tour-lacking" for sure. While we're messed up internally, let our nit-dogging players pony up some euros and play a little bit :)

Thanks for the posts- good info.

The 5 past World Champions are invited.

It means that for example Mika Immonen (2001) now has to play on the eurotour to get a spot from Europe.

Koop
08-13-2008, 11:46 AM
But I think the most prestigous way to do it is if each continent had strong tours, and the top players were sent to this FINAL tournament every year, to determine who's the worlds best player for that year, not only that week...

I apologize if this has already been said, and while I tend to agree with you going forward, why can't they just recognize the past accomplishments of former champs and then move forward with something like this?

Koop - just tossing in my $.02

crawfish
08-13-2008, 11:49 AM
Ok, ok. Here's what I am gonna do. I am having a WORLD BEATER tourney tonight. I am only gonna invite who I want. After I win it, I am a world champion. It starts at 7:00.

Ktown D
08-13-2008, 11:55 AM
Ok, ok. Here's what I am gonna do. I am having a WORLD BEATER tourney tonight. I am only gonna invite who I want. After I win it, I am a world champion. It starts at 7:00.
What is the entry and can we play a satellite first to get in on the cheap?

Roy Steffensen
08-13-2008, 12:06 PM
I apologize if this has already been said, and while I tend to agree with you going forward, why can't they just recognize the past accomplishments of former champs and then move forward with something like this?

Koop - just tossing in my $.02

I totally agree with you that the WPA should honour the past Champions, with including them on their list! It's a disgrace that they haven't done so.

My point with these posts are that I don't want anyone to start another big 9-ball tournament and call it for the World 9-ball Championship, because we already have a perfect system for the 9-ball. (Atleast the way it works in Europe).

Unfortunately the Eurotour-ranking (9-ball tournaments only) are also used to determine the players for the World 8-ball Championship and the World Ten Ball Championship. For the World 14-1 Championship I think that EPBF have made a deal with WPA and organizer Dragon P that the top 8 in the European Championship are guaranteed a spot, if they want to go.

I would love to see for example six 8-ball tournaments in each continent (or around the world) every year, deciding by the ranking who will compete in the World 8-ball Championship, and the same for 10-ball and 14-1.

Koop
08-13-2008, 12:08 PM
I totally agree with you that the WPA should honour the past Champions, with including them on their list! It's a disgrace that they haven't done so.

My point with these posts are that I don't want anyone to start another big 9-ball tournament and call it for the World 9-ball Championship, because we already have a perfect system for the 9-ball. (Atleast the way it works in Europe).

Unfortunately the Eurotour-ranking (9-ball tournaments only) are also used to determine the players for the World 8-ball Championship and the World Ten Ball Championship. For the World 14-1 Championship I think that EPBF have made a deal with WPA and organizer Dragon P that the top 8 in the European Championship are guaranteed a spot, if they want to go.

I would love to see for example six 8-ball tournaments in each continent (or around the world) every year, deciding by the ranking who will compete in the World 8-ball Championship, and the same for 10-ball and 14-1.

Gotcha, thanks Roy.

crawfish
08-13-2008, 12:11 PM
What is the entry and can we play a satellite first to get in on the cheap?
Entry is $30,000. Payouts are as follows:

1st place $2000
2nd place $1000

As many of you that want to sign up, go right ahead. If you win, you can call yourself the world champ. I changed my mind on the invitational only. My feeling is that "invite only" wouldn't be fair. Start sending me the cash. I will take paypal, also.

Wedge
08-13-2008, 12:29 PM
Jay, we have a US Open in 9 Ball that was and still is one of the most coveted events in 9 Ball. If we could muster a 14.1 US Open perhaps we would be more solitified as a Striaht Pool power in the world. Until then we can do that we will be playing second fiddle to the Germans and others. Remember the great US Opens in the 70's that Mizerak dominated. I dearly love straight pool but if not for the East Coast, particularly New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Maryland (Sorry if I left out a State(s) 14.1 would be dead in the US.

Your thoughts Jay?

AzHousePro
08-13-2008, 01:37 PM
Or he has to be the top foreign player on the BCA's points list.

Mike

The 5 past World Champions are invited.

It means that for example Mika Immonen (2001) now has to play on the eurotour to get a spot from Europe.

Roy Steffensen
08-13-2008, 01:48 PM
Or he has to be the top foreign player on the BCA's points list.

Mike

That's true, that is how Mika has got his spot the last 2 years.

The World Champions that are invited for the 2008 Chamionship:

Daryl Peach 2007
Ronato Alcano 2006
Chia-Ching Wu 2005
Alex Pagulayan 2004
Thorsten Hohmann 2003

Extra information: The players that finish top 16 in World Championship will automatically get an invite for the coming year. Also the player that win the US Open, and the finalists for each of the 7 Eurotours.

This means that for example Niels Feijen, who finished 9th last year is automatically invited to the WC. If he is on top 32 on the ranking of the eurotour (which he is), his ranking-spot will go to nr 33.

Because of this system, it is normally good enough to be ranked in the top 40 on the eurotour to get a spot in the World 9-ball Championship. The season starts in May every year, and it ends in April. So the top 40 in April is normally invited to the World Championship.

It's not as easy as it might sound, to end up top 40... Believe me, there are lots of players fighting for those spots...

AzHousePro
08-13-2008, 01:50 PM
On the other hand, these rules are for the World 9-Ball. There have been no previous events to use in order to determine players for the World 10-Ball.

Mike

Roy Steffensen
08-13-2008, 01:53 PM
On the other hand, these rules are for the World 9-Ball. There have been no previous events to use in order to determine players for the World 10-Ball.

Mike

That's true.

I mean they should atleast used the last 2 Dragon Promotions 10-ball tournaments to pick for example top 16 from each year... Then give some spots to BCA, EPBF etc.

Cornerman
08-13-2008, 01:56 PM
I apologize if this has already been said, and while I tend to agree with you going forward, why can't they just recognize the past accomplishments of former champs and then move forward with something like this?


My feeling is that they're trying to do this. They just aren't being very diplomatic. They come off as a-holes.

They absolutely have to recognize past champions. My goodness, what kind of world would this be if the "world governing body of pool" and IOC representativeof our sport didn't recognize Willie Mosconi as a World Champion???

They could have just said that they don't recognize the players mentioned on the main page as WPA World Champions and left it at that This haughty wording ("indeed... they are not") only fueled anti-WPA sentiments.

Fred

uwate
08-13-2008, 01:58 PM
The WPA has at least accomplished things as a sanctioning body that the UPA has not even come close to...bringing in some real sponsors and holding events that have media coverage and a decent payout. For that they should be given credit. I think the problem is not necessarily that the WPA is not a good pool organization but that their press release on this matter was poorly written and it should have been self evident before that person clicked "Send" that the words he chose were very inflammatory and ill chosen.

I mean cmon, anyone of the WPA champions would be the first to tell you that Sigel, Buddy, Lassiter, Hopkins and alot more can be fairly characterized as World Champions. If they try to tell anyone with a lick of pool sense otherwise, then they are just not credible.

That press release doesnt meet the straight face test imo. If you can't say it without laughing some, then its time to push delete instead of send.