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View Full Version : How to get big money into pool?


the kirkwood ki
03-08-2005, 09:59 AM
What are everyone's thoughts on things we can do to get the big money into pool as it has always deserved? This is ridiculous. The greatest game in the world and the best of the best get paid peanuts and can't make a decent living. Everyone seems to be waiting around for some big corporate sponsor to shell out big bucks or some billionare to become a pool fan.Wake up people. This isn't going to happen. We are going to have to take matters into our own hands. I was curiuous as to what people think to make things the way they should be. Not opinions about gambling and the fact that Earl Strickland acts like a child alot of times. But how to get the cash? If pool is so huge 24-40 million players supposedly, how hard would it be to organize a global pool organization where players paid dues or something like that? If everyone coughed up a buck a year (on the low side) that would be plenty to have a true world tour and get players the payouts they deserve and pay out to more than the top five. It's obvious we aren't going to be rescued by some wealty person or company, so we will have to do it ourselves. Just a thought. What do you think?

landshark77
03-08-2005, 10:52 AM
Hey Kirkwood...this has been discussed in depth in several threads a few months ago. You may wanna try a search in the forums...and maybe add to the conversations in those threads. IMHO, this issue has been beat to death and I think everyone will just be repeating themselves.

bruin70
03-08-2005, 11:16 AM
i don't think it's the responsibility of the fans to "take matters into their own hands".

pool is where it is for many reasons, and none of it is the fans' fault. pool has had an image problem that dates back to the turn of the 1900's if not beyond. if the players(and it all starts there) want to make only half-a**ed efforts to get their act together, the result is what we see.

there are better ways to make use of one's time than to try to secure the success of a pool player's livelihood. just enjoy the game and let the future of pool rest in the hands of other countries because it ain't happening in the USA.

Teacherman
03-08-2005, 11:19 AM
It starts with an enema.

sniper
03-08-2005, 01:11 PM
Corporate Sponsorship. The dollars aint gonna come from within the industry unless someone wins the lottery. How to get corporate sponsorship?

pete lafond
03-08-2005, 01:35 PM
This topic, as stated, was discussed in an earlier forum.

However, billiards needs to create some super heros. Market the top players and pay them well. It is individuals that draw attention to the game.

FLICKit
03-08-2005, 02:27 PM
This topic, as stated, was discussed in an earlier forum.

However, billiards needs to create some super heros. Market the top players and pay them well. It is individuals that draw attention to the game.


Simple.... just force Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Tiger Woods to master pool in their spare time. Then they could play a game of pool horse... similar to the style that MJ and LB played on that commercial.

Jordan could market a new form of pool shoes and/or super light cue tips with flashy colors. Every urban black kid would have em, and there'd be a movement to have pool tables on every corner. Bird could keep alive the great white hope. We'd have to increase number of games/balls to win, because he'd never miss. But of course he'd always have a slight handicap because "white men can't jump". And, Tiger Woods could bring in the Cablonasian market and open the game of pool to all races (hmmmm.... is it even closed?). He'd have to gain some super talent like the long draw. Toughest part would be figuring how we could get a gallery to follow him. Please, no flash photography. Think of all the fun we could have yelling "get in the hole" on every shot!

cueball1950
03-08-2005, 02:35 PM
How can you expect to get corporate sponsorship in a sport that even its own industry does not support financially...................mike

Teacherman
03-08-2005, 02:38 PM
How can you expect to get corporate sponsorship in a sport that even its own industry does not support financially...................mike

Why should they support it?

landshark77
03-08-2005, 02:40 PM
Simple.... just force Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Tiger Woods to master pool in their spare time. Then they could play a game of pool horse... similar to the style that MJ and LB played on that commercial.



I heard that MJ can play pool pretty decent already, at least that is the conversation stemmed about that Hanes commercial. But IMO the ballers need to stick to ball and get the REAL pool pros to do that commercial.

jjinfla
03-08-2005, 02:42 PM
Your idea is in effect already - it is called the APA.

I'm with Bruin, just enjoy being able to watch them play for free.

Jake

FLICKit
03-08-2005, 02:52 PM
Your idea is in effect already - it is called the APA.

I'm with Bruin, just enjoy being able to watch them play for free.

Jake

Yeah, corporate sponsonship is already involved. They support many of the pro events, especially the ones you see on TV. Keep it up.

the kirkwood ki
03-08-2005, 02:52 PM
Your idea is in effect already - it is called the APA.

I'm with Bruin, just enjoy being able to watch them play for free.

Jake

The APA? You're joking right? APA isn't even close too doing what I described.

pete lafond
03-08-2005, 03:03 PM
Simple.... just force Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Tiger Woods to master pool in their spare time. Then they could play a game of pool horse... similar to the style that MJ and LB played on that commercial.

Jordan could market a new form of pool shoes and/or super light cue tips with flashy colors. Every urban black kid would have em, and there'd be a movement to have pool tables on every corner. Bird could keep alive the great white hope. We'd have to increase number of games/balls to win, because he'd never miss. But of course he'd always have a slight handicap because "white men can't jump". And, Tiger Woods could bring in the Cablonasian market and open the game of pool to all races (hmmmm.... is it even closed?). He'd have to gain some super talent like the long draw. Toughest part would be figuring how we could get a gallery to follow him. Please, no flash photography. Think of all the fun we could have yelling "get in the hole" on every shot!

I was referring to making super heros out of top pool players and pay them BIG BUCKS.

FLICKit
03-08-2005, 03:05 PM
The APA? You're joking right? APA isn't even close too doing what I described.
Your goal is getting big money in pool....
Where else can an amateur player win $15,000?
Take what you can get... foster it... and make it grow.
Otherwise, disgruntled people try to tear down, what's already out there.

Baseball, Football, & Basketball didn't get big money overnight. They've expanded over time. Although pool has been around for a number of years, pool is in it's near beginning stages of it's growth. 10 years ago you couldn't find pool on TV. Currently, pool has cracked open the door to the TV market and it's been wedging wider open.

Keep on supporting what's already out there, and it'll grow and expand. Otherwise you may tear it down, and it'll wither and die.

Teacherman
03-08-2005, 03:09 PM
...Baseball, Football, & Basketball didn't get big money overnight...

But they used the best players known.

You think using joe sixpack, (APA player) who can barely draw his ball, is going to generate interest in pool??????

FLICKit
03-08-2005, 03:13 PM
But they used the best players known.

You think using joe sixpack, (APA player) who can barely draw his ball, is going to generate interest in pool??????

Yes!

Just like golf.... didn't matter how good the pro players were, didn't get much support. Until, Joe Sixpack went out and played golf for themselves, then they learned to appreciate what is entailed in the game. That mass of Joe Sixpack players is what caused the sport of golf to grow leaps and bounds.

FLICKit
03-08-2005, 03:16 PM
But they used the best players known.

You think using joe sixpack, (APA player) who can barely draw his ball, is going to generate interest in pool??????


Oh... and just to respond... That's part of the success of the APA is it's appeal to the beginner and to the advanced. Largest pool league in the world with over 230,000 players. That along with other pool venues helps develop a market, whereby pool can be appreciated on TV.

Take away those masses, and you lose pool from the TV.

FLICKit
03-08-2005, 03:18 PM
Teacherman, Why are you so bitter?

Are you a part of an APA knockoff league???

There's enough room for all.

Nostroke
03-08-2005, 03:23 PM
I was referring to making super heros out of top pool players and pay them BIG BUCKS.


Who is supposed to pay them and where do they get the money from?

Teacherman
03-08-2005, 03:33 PM
Bitter.....doesn't describe it.

Owning a business in an industry that can't find is ass from a hole in the ground, has no leadership, has a professional group that is me me me, has a trade organization that claims it's the governing body, having amateur players support this, and then a base of clueless customers who learned the game in bars......................

Anger is a better word.

There is no question that an audience is needed to support the TV ratings. But, that audience, that you claim to be at 230,000 should be tens of millions by now. They've been in business since 1979. All they do is continually replace the players they've run off.

I live and operate a business in their back yard. The APA was at one time big here. It is now almost nonexistent. Small start up leagues have simply dominated it. The money the APA offers doesn't matter when the system is so far flawed that it is dishonest. And it will fail around the country as soon as other small leagues develop in those areas or when a national pool room league is formed.

The best system is one that is in house where the league operator can actually watch players play. Still not perfect, but an operator who plays a little pool can watch a player at the table and by his stance, stroke, shot selection, patterns, safety play etc etc etc can make a judgement real quick on a player. He can set a ball park from which that player can settle into his category.

To think 230,000 players carry a handicap beside their name, and few if any of them have been watched by someone who knows pool, and their handicap is determined by their match scores, and many do not try to win those matches, and you support the system proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are many suckers on this earth.

But...............what comes in the front door continually leaks out the back door because the system in place can not and will not work.

DaveK
03-08-2005, 03:35 PM
10 years ago you couldn't find pool on TV.

Snooker has been televised in the UK for a lot longer than 10 years. The top snooker players make excellent money for winning and they get good endorsements. I know the thread is about 'pool', but the snooker folks have a single, strong organization, something that is missing from pool in NA where we seem to have many weaker organizations. The fragmentation in the industry causes many problems IMO. This is top level competition forums I'm speaking about, not general pool organizations.

Dave

the kirkwood ki
03-08-2005, 03:38 PM
Oh... and just to respond... That's part of the success of the APA is it's appeal to the beginner and to the advanced. Largest pool league in the world with over 230,000 players. That along with other pool venues helps develop a market, whereby pool can be appreciated on TV.

Take away those masses, and you lose pool from the TV.

$15,000 is big money? 230,000 players and all that is paid is $15,000? A BS
"ranking" system? Give me a break. The league stuff is ok for amatuers, but I don't want to see amatuers playing for $15,000. I want to see the best of the best playing for 1.5 mil or better like other sports. Let the APA continue to be the little league of pool that it is.

pete lafond
03-08-2005, 03:41 PM
Bitter.....doesn't describe it.

Owning a business in an industry that can't find is ass from a hole in the ground, has no leadership,



I've made this statement about 3 months ago. This is one incident were I agree with you. There is no governing body establishing leadership, period. I once thought that the BCA was it. I learned to be wrong.

FLICKit
03-08-2005, 03:42 PM
Bitter.....doesn't describe it.

Owning a business in an industry that can't find is ass from a hole in the ground, has no leadership, has a professional group that is me me me, has a trade organization that claims it's the governing body, having amateur players support this, and then a base of clueless customers who learned the game in bars......................

Anger is a better word.

There is no question that an audience is needed to support the TV ratings. But, that audience, that you claim to be at 230,000 should be tens of millions by now. They've been in business since 1979. All they do is continually replace the players they've run off.

I live and operate a business in their back yard. The APA was at one time big here. It is now almost nonexistent. Small start up leagues have simply dominated it. The money the APA offers doesn't matter when the system is so far flawed that it is dishonest. And it will fail around the country as soon as other small leagues develop in those areas or when a national pool room league is formed.

The best system is one that is in house where the league operator can actually watch players play. Still not perfect, but an operator who plays a little pool can watch a player at the table and by his stance, stroke, shot selection, patterns, safety play etc etc etc can make a judgement real quick on a player. He can set a ball park from which that player can settle into his category.

To think 230,000 players carry a handicap beside their name, and few if any of them have been watched by someone who knows pool, and their handicap is determined by their match scores, and many do not try to win those matches, and you support the system proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are many suckers on this earth.

But...............what comes in the front door continually leaks out the back door because the system in place can not and will not work.

LOL.... You know not what you are talking about.

Since you're so fond of watching, then you should know that APA players are watched as well, at the higher level tournaments.... that's one of the anti-sand bagging methods that are employed. Along with that there is actual recorded data and statistics that is used as well to help determine a player's ability.

As you said, your system isn't perfect, either.

I'm not knocking local leagues. There are some pluses and minuses to them as well.

Just live and let be.

Unless of course, it has to be your way or no way....

The people will decide for themselves.

bruin70
03-08-2005, 03:44 PM
Snooker has been televised in the UK for a lot longer than 10 years. The top snooker players make excellent money for winning and they get good endorsements. I know the thread is about 'pool', but the snooker folks have a single, strong organization, something that is missing from pool in NA where we seem to have many weaker organizations. The fragmentation in the industry causes many problems IMO. This is top level competition forums I'm speaking about, not general pool organizations.

Dave


the mindset of a european(british) who watches snooker, bbc, and four hour movies, is quite different from that of an american audience that can't sit still to watch a barely two hour movie, and leaves a ballgame to avoid traffic.

DaveK
03-08-2005, 03:45 PM
Bitter.....doesn't describe it.

Owning a business in an industry that can't find is ass from a hole in the ground, has no leadership, has a professional group that is me me me, has a trade organization that claims it's the governing body, having amateur players support this, and then a base of clueless customers who learned the game in bars......................

Anger is a better word.

There is no question that an audience is needed to support the TV ratings. But, that audience, that you claim to be at 230,000 should be tens of millions by now. They've been in business since 1979. All they do is continually replace the players they've run off.

I live and operate a business in their back yard. The APA was at one time big here. It is now almost nonexistent. Small start up leagues have simply dominated it. The money the APA offers doesn't matter when the system is so far flawed that it is dishonest. And it will fail around the country as soon as other small leagues develop in those areas or when a national pool room league is formed.

The best system is one that is in house where the league operator can actually watch players play. Still not perfect, but an operator who plays a little pool can watch a player at the table and by his stance, stroke, shot selection, patterns, safety play etc etc etc can make a judgement real quick on a player. He can set a ball park from which that player can settle into his category.

To think 230,000 players carry a handicap beside their name, and few if any of them have been watched by someone who knows pool, and their handicap is determined by their match scores, and many do not try to win those matches, and you support the system proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are many suckers on this earth.

But...............what comes in the front door continually leaks out the back door because the system in place can not and will not work.

Well said Teach, I agree whole-heartedly !

Dave, who plays in a non-handicapped but tiered singles league, where players are placed by the hall manager who is one of our best players ... I gave up on the handicapped team leagues

Teacherman
03-08-2005, 03:45 PM
The only thing that will save pool is an idiot.

A guy with so much money and great interest in pool that he sets up a tour with big money. Takes his lumps as it develops and hopefully it turns into something big. Which, I must say, the odds aren't good.

It has to be so good and so big that the players have to play. So good and big and well run that they want to play. So good that they have to qualify to play. So big and good that he can say no to any player, group, sponsor when necessary.

The idiot has to be the king for a while, as he should be, it's his money.

As long as everyone needs everyone, nothing will happen because they all fear someone getting more than them.

FLICKit
03-08-2005, 03:48 PM
The only thing that will save pool is an idiot.

The idiot has to be the king for a while, as he should be, it's his money.

As long as everyone needs everyone, nothing will happen because they all fear someone getting more than them.


Sounds like you are the savior we need. :p

Teacherman
03-08-2005, 03:50 PM
...APA players are watched as well, at the higher level tournaments.... .

AFTER, they've unfairly knocked several teams and players out of the tournament. And these unfairly eliminated teams now decide to not play again. And the new marketing efforts only slightly out run the losses....sometimes they are less than the losses.

And we sit. And we talk. And we hope. And we speculate.

It's plain as day folks. I live it every day. Why you can't see it is beyond me.

It can be better.

Grow an audience. Promote a tour. That's all it takes........and we're so frickin helpless we can't do either.

Get me 10 pool rooms in each of the 50 states cooperating in in house league play with a national tournament and I'll bust the APA, BCA, VNEA, etc etc. I'll have a national league system second to none and I'll be the idiot to start the tour.

When the leaders of our sport show enough leadership to take it away from Budweiser and every smoke filled corner bar with a short shooting stick so you can deal with the lack of space, then we have a chance.

Until then, play for peanuts.

the kirkwood ki
03-08-2005, 03:55 PM
Bitter.....doesn't describe it.

Owning a business in an industry that can't find is ass from a hole in the ground, has no leadership, has a professional group that is me me me, has a trade organization that claims it's the governing body, having amateur players support this, and then a base of clueless customers who learned the game in bars......................

Anger is a better word.

There is no question that an audience is needed to support the TV ratings. But, that audience, that you claim to be at 230,000 should be tens of millions by now. They've been in business since 1979. All they do is continually replace the players they've run off.

I live and operate a business in their back yard. The APA was at one time big here. It is now almost nonexistent. Small start up leagues have simply dominated it. The money the APA offers doesn't matter when the system is so far flawed that it is dishonest. And it will fail around the country as soon as other small leagues develop in those areas or when a national pool room league is formed.

The best system is one that is in house where the league operator can actually watch players play. Still not perfect, but an operator who plays a little pool can watch a player at the table and by his stance, stroke, shot selection, patterns, safety play etc etc etc can make a judgement real quick on a player. He can set a ball park from which that player can settle into his category.

To think 230,000 players carry a handicap beside their name, and few if any of them have been watched by someone who knows pool, and their handicap is determined by their match scores, and many do not try to win those matches, and you support the system proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are many suckers on this earth.

But...............what comes in the front door continually leaks out the back door because the system in place can not and will not work.




Amen to that. Danny D once said years ago that, "The problem with pool is you have a public that knows nothing and the media knows nothing." That was years ago and he was right then and is right now. Most people wouldn't know what good pool, I mean really good pool, is if it bit them on the ass. I have watched many, many, league players (most young punks trying to impress and equally pool clueless girlfriend) strut around and think they can play a little (most of them handicapped beyond belief) have their asses handed to them on a platter when faced up against your average shortstop.
It's all good though, I sure don't want them to go away, but I don't think of them as players, I think of them as suckers.

DaveK
03-08-2005, 03:56 PM
The only thing that will save pool is an idiot.

A guy with so much money and great interest in pool that he sets up a tour with big money. Takes his lumps as it develops and hopefully it turns into something big. Which, I must say, the odds aren't good.

It has to be so good and so big that the players have to play. So good and big and well run that they want to play. So good that they have to qualify to play. So big and good that he can say no to any player, group, sponsor when necessary.

The idiot has to be the king for a while, as he should be, it's his money.

As long as everyone needs everyone, nothing will happen because they all fear someone getting more than them.

Not that I think the owners can be classified as 'idiots', but this was the way to success for Snooker and Formula One racing, both of which are big money franchises. Given the choice, I'd rather make the money that top F1 drivers make over the money that top snooker players make, but I'd prefer the risks of snooker at the same time :) Unfortunately nobody has offered me that choice :(

Dave

FLICKit
03-08-2005, 03:57 PM
It's plain as day folks. I live it every day. Why you can't see it is beyond me.

It can be better.

Grow an audience. Promote a tour. That's all it takes........and we're so frickin helpless we can't do either.

Get me 10 pool rooms in each of the 50 states cooperating in in house league play with a national tournament and I'll bust the APA, BCA, VNEA, etc etc. I'll have a national league system second to none and I'll be the idiot to start the tour.


See... I knew you'd be the savior that you were referring to.

FLICKit
03-08-2005, 04:05 PM
Amen to that. Danny D once said years ago that, "The problem with pool is you have a public that knows nothing and the media knows nothing." That was years ago and he was right then and is right now. Most people wouldn't know what good pool, I mean really good pool, is if it bit them on the ass. I have watched many, many, league players (most young punks trying to impress and equally pool clueless girlfriend) strut around and think they can play a little (most of them handicapped beyond belief) have their asses handed to them on a platter when faced up against your average shortstop.
It's all good though, I sure don't want them to go away, but I don't think of them as players, I think of them as suckers.

See... You guys are all talk. There are amatuer and advanced levels in the APA. You want to lump the amateurs that help comprise their membership and ignore the advanced ones which also help comprise their 230,000 members. There are advanced tournaments where there are no handicaps involved. Feel free to back up your claims of superiority by winning a no handicapped bracket.

Somehow I figure you will chicken out... Not able to put your money where your mouth is.... so never mind...

You go your way, and everyone else will go their way.

FLICKit
03-08-2005, 04:13 PM
Teacherman you have so much BS, you're not even worth talking to anymore.

Have fun...

FLICKit
03-08-2005, 04:28 PM
And we sit. And we talk. And we hope. And we speculate.

It's plain as day folks. I live it every day. Why you can't see it is beyond me.

It can be better.

Grow an audience. Promote a tour. That's all it takes........and we're so frickin helpless we can't do either.

Get me 10 pool rooms in each of the 50 states cooperating in in house league play with a national tournament and I'll bust the APA, BCA, VNEA, etc etc. I'll have a national league system second to none and I'll be the idiot to start the tour.

When the leaders of our sport show enough leadership to take it away from Budweiser and every smoke filled corner bar with a short shooting stick so you can deal with the lack of space, then we have a chance.

Until then, play for peanuts.

Poolplayers unite and install the Teacherman in-house league format throughout the nation, whereby there will be no cheating or sandbagging because Teacherman will present at every in-house league around the world to watch and rate the poolplayer's ability. This will not be a biased system, because teacherman doesn't have a biased bone in his body. If someone complains about any flaws in the Teacherman system, then they will be eliminated from the pool world, because Teacherman is never wrong that's not even an option.

Hmmm.... Even if we could get this grand Teacherman system to work, what do we do in another 50 or so years, when Teacherman is 6 feet under. Teacherman league format can't work without teacherman watching and rating everyone's ability. Can you still assess skill level if you're cryogenically frozen? Maybe just wink the left eye for beginners, and wink the right eye for advanced.

Thank god that the village idiot has come to save the pool community! Hoorah for Teacherman!!! Hip hip Hooray!

sjm
03-08-2005, 06:10 PM
Perhaps it's time for a little business theory.

Pro pool is best understood as a product that hasn't sold very well. When a product having at least some merit doesn't sell, it is usually attributable to both of these two factors: a) the product itself needs to be improved or developed, and b) the product needs to be promoted better.

A business school student isn't likely to forget that product development and promotion are both fundamental aspects of marketing. The WPBA has shown a keen sense of this over the years, as well, and that's part of why they have enjoyed continual growth for over twenty five years. It seems, however, that male pro pool players have forgotten that product development is necessary.

Men pros and their advocates would have us believe that the blame for the fact that mens pro pool hasn't sold well lies entirely with those who try to promote it. The implication of holding this view is that the pro pool product is highly sellable exactly as is, and the disheartening popularity of this view evidences the lack of accountability that far too many men pro pool players have and feel for the current state of the mens pro game.

Mens pro pool needs product development but the men, through their behavior, show they don't think it matters. Far too many times, they fail to show up to pro matches, quit in the middle of matches, abuse fans, abuse equipment, abuse referees, dress unpresentably, use profanities, and show far too little self-esteem. Other times, you almost have to wonder whether the men are just trying to look disreputable. At the World Summit of Pool in 2003, one man was the tournament director, the referee, and also ran a sports book operation for the matches, accepting bets from players and fans alike. Conflict of interest, anyone?

I love mens pro pool, have invested quite a bit of money in it. I am proud of it and have no regrets. Still, I believe that until men pool players show they will commit themselves to improving the product called mens pro pool, the big bucks will never come to meet them.

Yes, the pro pool product has to be sold better, but the product could use some serious improvement, too. I note with dejection that the men have done little to improve the pro pool product over the years and seem, as a group to show little commitment to changing this.

bruin70
03-08-2005, 07:06 PM
Perhaps it's time for a little business theory.

Pro pool is best understood as a product that hasn't sold very well. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, a) the product itself needs to be improved or developed, and b) the product needs to be promoted better.
.

a)this encompasses too many things.
product image: pool has a bad rep, over a century old, and not likely to change anytime soon.

product: not here in the states. the USA is a big sport country, and even hockey isn't big enough. americans don't have the mindset to sit and watch two men walk around a 9' table. the game has its own inherent defficiencies.

product and celebrity: the success of the women is built on the fact that they're women..............and most of it is jeanette. ie, the only other two known women players are "that blonde" and "the tall gal with glasses". if the women are doing it right(and they are,,,,, better than the men), then pool is STILL on very shakey ground, because ultimately, jeanette is the only one benefitting from pool.

b) there's no "b" unless there's an "a"

"Pro pool is best understood as a product that hasn't sold very well."..........

location location location. there's no demographic to whom you can sell pool(we're talking the general public). before you sell your product, know your customer("the apprentice" :):) ) and let's differentiate between the "pro pool" watching demographic and the "bar/pool league" demographic, as they are to mutually exclusive groups(for now, anyway).

sjm
03-08-2005, 07:08 PM
a)this encompasses too many things.
product image: pool has a bad rep, over a century old, and not likely to change anytime soon.

product: not here in the states. the USA is a big sport country, and even hockey isn't big enough. americans don't have the mindset to sit and watch two men walk around a 9' table. the game has its own inherent defficiencies.

product and celebrity: the success of the women is built on the fact that they're women..............and most of it is jeanette. ie, the only other two known women players are "that blonde" and "the tall gal with glasses". if the women are doing it right(and they are,,,,, better than the men), then pool is STILL on very shakey ground, because ultimately, jeanette is the only one benefitting from pool.

b) there's no "b" unless there's an "a"

"Pro pool is best understood as a product that hasn't sold very well."..........

location location location. there's no demographic to whom you can sell pool(we're talking the general public). before you sell your product, know your customer("the apprentice" :):) ) and let's differentiate between the "pro pool" watching demographic and the "bar/pool league" demographic, as they are to mutually exclusive groups(for now, anyway).

A well judged reply, Bruin. thanks for your insights.

Teacherman
03-08-2005, 07:16 PM
...and let's differentiate between the "pro pool" watching demographic and the "bar/pool league" demographic, as they are to mutually exclusive groups(for now, anyway).

Explain this. If the league players are not part of your audience, who is the audience.

Nostroke
03-08-2005, 07:33 PM
a)this encompasses too many things.
product image: pool has a bad rep, over a century old, and not likely to change anytime soon.

product: not here in the states. the USA is a big sport country, and even hockey isn't big enough. americans don't have the mindset to sit and watch two men walk around a 9' table. the game has its own inherent defficiencies.

product and celebrity: the success of the women is built on the fact that they're women..............and most of it is jeanette. ie, the only other two known women players are "that blonde" and "the tall gal with glasses". if the women are doing it right(and they are,,,,, better than the men), then pool is STILL on very shakey ground, because ultimately, jeanette is the only one benefitting from pool.

b) there's no "b" unless there's an "a"

"Pro pool is best understood as a product that hasn't sold very well."..........

location location location. there's no demographic to whom you can sell pool(we're talking the general public). before you sell your product, know your customer("the apprentice" :):) ) and let's differentiate between the "pro pool" watching demographic and the "bar/pool league" demographic, as they are to mutually exclusive groups(for now, anyway).

In Michigan City "that Blond" couldn't even pay for her meal with a credit card 30 feet from the Arena as she had no ID. There was a Poster Card on the counter with 5 Players on it with rankings down to the 20's but no Allison to point to. The players were clearly picked on someone's idea of looks, but damn I think Allison is pretty.

Still, I wouldnt say Jeanette is the only one benefitting from pool. I think Allison, Eva, Dawn and Vivian are doing OK and im probably leaving out someone

bruin70
03-08-2005, 07:37 PM
Explain this. If the league players are not part of your audience, who is the audience.

that's just my point. there IS no audience. here in nyc,,,,,you have one of the largest, hugest leagues in the country at ABC, and nary a one knows a male pro player. the leagues players play league pool, and they don't watch pro pool.

the audience you seek( if you want success) is in the general public, not the leagues. it is a false sense of hope to assume pro pool's audience lies in leagues, because those numbers have been hashed out over and over again as "proof" that the populariy of pool is rising. pool as a diversion is doing ok(that's what the #'s reflect),,,but it has nothing to do with pro pool succeeding.

pete lafond
03-08-2005, 07:43 PM
Explain this. If the league players are not part of your audience, who is the audience.

The audience includes all factors of society. Do you play football? I don't, but I love watching it. My 9 year old plays in Pop-Warner, but there are other leagues to that he can choose to play in. The NFL is an entity that is marketed. And if you pay attention it is marketed through its outstanding players. I agree that we need to have a solid organization for billiards. We then need to market the hell out of it using pros performing spectacular shots. That's right - market the pros. What an advantage pool has. It is the only game (sport if you choose) that most people have played and continue to play. More than baseball and football. There really is something here to work with.

Zims Rack
03-09-2005, 04:09 AM
I have to stand behind Teacher on this one, from personal experience!
The league that Teacherman is referring to does work and works well, very well. DANNY D and I are proof of Teacher's league and of the APA BS HCP System. We've played in both leagues and both have it's ups and downs. However, the only 2 downs to Teachers league is 1) location- not enough locations to play at 2) cost. APA has many downs. 1-?) Poor HCP system, it's abused by a vast majority of players; only way to see something in your pocket is if you are "smarter" than the sandbagging teams and can get to the Al Mighty Las Vegas; you can be the league MVP and lose to a 3sl 3-0 because she broke and ran the table or played successful safeties 100% of her shots; It's the bottom of the pool when it comes to leagues. If you can play in a league that costs little, has plenty of players of all skill levels, has a good payout and offers you the opportunity to advance your game as well as your team to the next league level...wouldn't that be better than playing in a different smoke filled bar every week, paying your dues, playing your game, watching your team earn their way to the top positions, only to be knocked out by a team that you know has been sandbagging all season, and end of with a payout large enough to buy a round of team drinks...and your team finished 2nd!
Look at the Viking Tour! Hasn't it grown since Mike started it? It is one of the best payed and most played in Tour in the US (to my knowledge).
Teacher doesn't have to be at each location in every state! He said someeone that knows something about how to play. Who's to say he wont have a location to train the pool room owners how to operate the league and they will have to meet certain criteria to be a league operator!!!!!!
Keep it up Teach! Good job! I don't see the negative side of your posts, just the true business sense.

Zim

pete lafond
03-09-2005, 06:31 AM
I have to stand behind Teacher on this one, from personal experience!

Zim

There are many very good leagues like Teachers. As similar as these leagues are they are to localized. A national league is needed and maybe one of the ones that already exists will improve to the point that everyone (most) will be satisfied. Whatever the league, it must support bars as well. As far as smoky bars? They are becoming the thing of the past as seen through changes in the law. It would be nice to see one of these national leagues fire up the pool community.

vapoolplayer
03-09-2005, 07:52 AM
I heard that MJ can play pool pretty decent already, at least that is the conversation stemmed about that Hanes commercial. But IMO the ballers need to stick to ball and get the REAL pool pros to do that commercial.


a few years back i heard he could play baseball too................ :rolleyes:



VAP

DaveK
03-09-2005, 08:33 AM
Perhaps it's time for a little business theory.

Pro pool is best understood as a product that hasn't sold very well. When a product having at least some merit doesn't sell, it is usually attributable to both of these two factors: a) the product itself needs to be improved or developed, and b) the product needs to be promoted better.

This is turning out to be quite a good thread, maybe I can help bring it back a bit :)

The concept of scarcity is currently working against the pool product. The pool product is not very scarce, with the result that people do not consider it very valuable. To illustrate, imagine I run a TV network, DavesChannel. We want to run some pool tournaments on TV, so I go looking to buy some events. Who do I call ? UPA first, then Viking Tour, then Planet Pool, then Fury, then Joss, then Pechauer, etc. Since TV contracts are sought after by these groups, I can play them off against each other a bit and obtain the product at a very good rate.

This of course leads to another problem with the product : How good is it ? By this I mean do we have the top quality pool, or the nearly-top-of-the-heap pool, or pretty-darned-good pool, or a bunch of wannabees with sticks ? The audience will be hard pressed to know the difference between play at a good regional event vs top-level pool. Without knowing they might discount the event as 'not the best' pool, which makes the event less valuable. In other sports they are told what level they are watching, it is well graded for them (PGA Tour vs Nationwide Tour ; MLB vs AAA vs AA vs A ; NHL vs AHL vs WHL vs NSJHL ; NCAA Div 1, Division 2, etc).

Now, if some great person comes along and organizes pool under a single umbrella group and de-fragments the sport, DavesChannel has to negotiate with that one group for a scarce, well-graded series of sporting events. If I still want to show pool I will pay more for it.

Just my opinion sneaking out again ...

Dave

pete lafond
03-09-2005, 08:48 AM
Now, if some great person comes along and organizes pool under a single umbrella group and de-fragments the sport, DavesChannel has to negotiate with that one group for a scarce, well-graded series of sporting events. If I still want to show pool I will pay more for it.

Just my opinion sneaking out again ...

Dave

Great post, I agree. The question becomes what organization is capable of pulling this together? I do not think the BCA is the answer. UPA has some good characteristics and some very good drive. There's other leagues too. The problem we have is that it almost seems as if each of the pro leagues compete with each other instead of eastablishing a territory. Lots of bashing here. I think that pool should find a sport or game that has been successful and copy it. Golf might be the answer.

pete lafond
03-09-2005, 08:56 AM
Another point to battle. About 1 1/2 years ago Earl S. was practicing for a tounament to get underway. He was talking about an experience he had on the golf coarse. He linked up with some local players who had asked him what he does for a living. Earl stated that he's a professional pool player. Immediatly one of the guys in the foursome said to him, "So your a pool hustler, huh."

Jersey
03-09-2005, 09:11 AM
There is already 'BIG' money in pool...it's just not for the players...the Billiard Industry is a MEGA MILLION $$$ money maker...the money is made off of all of us in this forum...we own tables, cue's and all the accessories and trinkets that go along with being a 'POOL NUT'...the unfortunate part of this is...there are loads of people with tables in their homes, along with all the other stuff you need to 'CREATE' a 'BILLIARD/GAME ROOM'...it's a 'FAD' now...like having a 'MEDIA ROOM' custom made to watch your collection of DVD's...if more people were 'PLAYERS'...ie(ventued out to local rooms, supported local leagues, and were more demanding of the industry), we would see more of the things talked about here...problem is there are not enough 'REAL POOLROOMS' that are set up to cater to the LADY/FAMILY enthusiasts...to smokey, to loud, mediocre food and lest we forget...bathrooms not fit for human beings...

just my 2 cent~

pete lafond
03-09-2005, 09:29 AM
to smokey, to loud, mediocre food and lest we forget...bathrooms not fit for human beings...

just my 2 cent~

We need more pool rooms like were I live and Teachermans rooms. If others can follow their lead it would be a great start. We need to polish pool to gain the respect it deserves. Road players are fine, golf has them too. But your right, rooms have to be clean. How about a rating system? Golf rates coarses and shows pictures of holes from different coarses. maybe AZBilliards can start something. If awards are given, then you know local newspapers will publish the picture of their room in their newspaper followed by an article. If the awards are professional and qualifications are listed properly, this should lead the new articlewriter into stating positives.

Egg McDogit
03-09-2005, 09:42 AM
As much as I love this game, I don't think it carries over
to TV well oftentimes. I like to watch one pocket (on tapes)
because I don't know what people are going to do. But in
watching 9 ball, 90%+ of the time everyone's gonna play each
shot the same way. It's just a matter of execution. Really
the excitement, to me anyways, lies in:
1) people stringing racks together (i.e. superstars), which
doesn't happen now with the alternate break formats
2) the intensity and pressure involved in each game, which
I think the alternate break format helps a bit when the
match is close, but hurts when one guy gets up 3-1.

I did like watching the match with Kid Delicious and Gabe
Owen, which was on lately. Kid Delicious actually had some
personality so it was less stolid and more entertaining for
me.

If you want to make pool exciting to the layman, market the
underside of the game. It doesn't seem to have hurt poker.
I read that when the Hustler was released, it caused a bit
of a pool revival...same thing with the Color of Money.

Just my thoughts, so don't flame me too bad...peace
-Egg

DaveK
03-09-2005, 09:56 AM
The question becomes what organization is capable of pulling this together?

At this point the best way forward might be for the pool players organize themselves. The only other way I see is the Teacherman approach, wait for a pool sugar-daddy who wants to own the business. All existing organizations carry too much bagage from what I've seen and read. The barrier will be trust, a remnant of pools past ...

JMO,

Dave

pete lafond
03-09-2005, 10:29 AM
At this point the best way forward might be for the pool players organize themselves. The only other way I see is the Teacherman approach, wait for a pool sugar-daddy who wants to own the business. All existing organizations carry too much bagage from what I've seen and read. The barrier will be trust, a remnant of pools past ...

JMO,

Dave
Yes, I agree with this. Maybe Teacherman wants to establish something.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 10:50 AM
At this point the best way forward might be for the pool players organize themselves...

You're kidding, right?......organize themselves?

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 11:06 AM
We've played in both leagues and both have it's ups and downs.
Zim

I agree.... ALL leagues have their ups and downs.
You guys seem to be one trick ponies. Of course in all your posts, everything you do, has only ups, and anything anyone else does differently only has downs. Let's see you back up your words, since you say other leagues have UPS, try to name a few. Somehow I don't think you can do it, without either some stingy backhanded compliment, or without somehow trying to temper it by saying what you do is better. Point is, you say that everything has it's ups and downs, we've heard you repeatedly try to bash and say downs, but what are the ups of the leagues that aren't yours?

Let's hear the flip side of the coin from you guys (Teacherman included) for once. Or are you really just a one trick pony with an agenda?

Other people post on here, that it'd be interesting to have a general discussion of what works with regards to a pool rating system, but you try to bash and eliminate any sort of positive solutions. Unless of course, the solution is the Teacherman watches and rates all system, of course that's the greatest thing in the world!

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 11:12 AM
You're kidding, right?......organize themselves?

Nice positive comment, with a positive solution....

At least you're consistent....

;)

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 11:12 AM
I agree.... ALL leagues have their ups and downs.
You guys seem to be one trick ponies. Of course in all your posts, everything you do, has only ups, and anything anyone else does differently only has downs. Let's see you back up your words, since you say other leagues have UPS, try to name a few. Somehow I don't think you can do it, without either some stingy backhanded compliment, or without somehow trying to temper it by saying what you do is better. Point is, you say that everything has it's ups and downs, we've heard you repeatedly try to bash and say downs, but what are the ups of the leagues that aren't yours?

Let's hear the flip side of the coin from you guys (Teacherman included) for once. Or are you really just a one trick pony with an agenda?

Other people post on here, that it'd be interesting to have a general discussion of what works with regards to a pool rating system, but you try to bash and eliminate any sort of positive solutions. Unless of course, the solution is the Teacherman watches and rates all system, of course that's the greatest thing in the world!

Quit avoiding the question......answer it.

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 11:13 AM
Quit avoiding the question......answer it.

Yeah exactly...

I'm waiting for you to give the answers...

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 11:17 AM
Yeah exactly...

I'm waiting for you to give the answers...

Where is the $12,800,000 (approx) that's missing from your pet orgainzation's prize fund?

Maybe you're part of the scam? Are you an APA league operator?

Positives are irrelevant until the money is accounted for.

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 11:20 AM
Where is the $12,800,000 (approx) that's missing from your pet orgainzation's prize fund?

Maybe you're part of the scam? Are you an APA league operator?

Positives are irrelevant until the money is accounted for.


LOL... One trick pony.... lol

How'd I guess?

You've proven the point brilliantly.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 11:30 AM
LOL... One trick pony.... lol

How'd I guess?

You've proven the point brilliantly.

It's the trump trick. The only thing that matters. When it is settled other things can be looked at. Until then.............show me the money!!!!

DaveK
03-09-2005, 11:43 AM
You're kidding, right?......organize themselves?

No, I wasn't kidding about this being the best way forward. I did however add that mistrust would be a barrier. I think it is a HUGE barrier, and as a result they will not be able to organize. Instead, any attempt to get together will end up with bodies strewn everywhere, kinda like the scene today. The "OK, I'll buy pool" sugar-daddy is more likely to get off the ground (assuming there is such a person), but he would have a heck of a time getting everyone (and he would need everyone, not just 1/2 of them) to sign-on (again, because of that mistrust thing).

Ya teacherman, I agree, it ain't gonna happen for a long while IMO. I was speaking of what is best, not what is reasonable, sorry for any confusion ...

Dave

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 12:39 PM
Where is the $12,800,000 (approx) that's missing from your pet orgainzation's prize fund?

Maybe you're part of the scam? Are you an APA league operator?

Positives are irrelevant until the money is accounted for.


Since you have continued to avoid the questions posed to you...

I will set an example and answer the following...

There is no $12,800,000 missing money. That's some ficticious # that you made up based on your own accounting schemes. So don't be ridiculous.

I don't have a full accounting of all their money. Nowhere near any position that would have that information, nor would I expect it to be posted. Let's see if you'd post all the accounting records for your Pool Hall Business over the last year.

That organization puts forth quite a bit of money for the pool players, including sponsoring most of the pro events that we all see on TV, especially the women's events. They brought in the top female poolplayer, Allison Fisher to town, as one of their promotional events. This is just one example of the positive impacts on the pool community.

I don't know where all their money is going, nor do I care to. It's irrelevant. I'm sure people at the upper echelon of the business are making money, as would be typical of any large corporation. They've built it up over the years, and as in any successful business money will be made. I have no qualms with that. If you get successful in your business, I'd have no qualms with you making money on it too. That's called business, as we all know.

Scam??? LOL.... Everything that isn't yours seems to fit under that category to you. Typical one trick pony... Your agenda is so set and consistent. Bash bash bash.... anything or any idea that isn't yours.

Not a league Operator. Just a player making my own decisions about what I like best, and always interested in gathering realistic information (unlike the one sided bashing that you consistently spew).

Somehow, I still think you'll avoid the issue of any positives from anything that isn't affiliated with you, or your idea.

Continue to bash bash bash... Your worthless rantings are just that.... Worthless. Hope that fulfills all your gay bashing fantasies that you have.

Still nothing positive from you, I see...

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 02:38 PM
...Let's see if you'd post all the accounting records for your Pool Hall Business over the last year...

My pool room books are none of your business.

However, my pool league business regularly shows a P&L of what money was collected and where it went at the end of each session.

We print booklets for the playoffs that include the teams names, rosters, standings, tournament bracket.....every thing they need to compete in the tournament.......AND a Profit and Loss statement. Which by the way always showed the room adding some money.

The players know exactly where their league fees went, how much was league prize money, how much went into the singles events etc etc.

The real issue is not the exact numbers but what percentage of your fees is actually paid in prize money.

My league is just an example. Not trying to take it nationally. But, we paid 100% of their fees back to them. We hoped they'd spend and buy food and drink while they played.

I wouldn't expect the APA to pay 100% back. There are costs of doing business.

BUT.........................when they have 230,000 members and only $4.50 from each member goes to the prize fund I have to ask questions.

Assuming a 15 week session, 3 times per year, that leads to one national team event per year, that is 45 weeks times the league fee. I don't know what it is. Is $5 per week a fair number to use? If it is, the player pays in $225 per year and $4.50 of it goes to prize money. (I'm using your $1,000,000 prize number). That is 2%. Let me say that again 2% of all the money paid in goes back to the player?

Get your head out of the sand. Demand a fair shake.

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 03:02 PM
Dude,

There's $1 million given out at their national tournament, including 8 ball team, 8 ball singles, 9 ball team, 9 ball singles, and some doubles events ($25,000 here, $15,000 there, another $15,000 here, $$$ in numerous formats...., on top of that, they don't just pay first place, they pay many places down, they even pay over $1000 for all the teams that earn their way to Vegas). They also have many other tournaments, and many other payouts throughout (more than I can keep track of). The point is, in that venue, they provide $1 million to their players, which is alot of money that they spread.

Of course, you are just going to try to spin it around into a negative, cuz you're a one trick pony with your same agenda of bash bash bash.

When something better comes around, I'd be willing to look at that as well. Until then, the players will continue to choose what's best for them at the time.

End of discussion.... because the one-trick pony can only maintain one thought in his head, therefore there's no room for any discussion. Bash bash bash all you want, because we all know about your rep.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 03:05 PM
Dude,

There's $1 million given out at their national tournament, including 8 ball team, 8 ball singles, 9 ball team, 9 ball singles, and some doubles events ($25,000 here, $15,000 there, another $15,000 here, $$$ in numerous formats...., on top of that, they don't just pay first place, they pay many places down, they even pay over $1000 for all the teams that earn their way to Vegas). They also have many other tournaments, and many other payouts throughout (more than I can keep track of). The point is, in that venue, they provide $1 million to their players, which is alot of money that they spread.

Of course, you are just going to try to spin it around into a negative, cuz you're a one trick pony with your same agenda of bash bash bash.

When something better comes around, I'd be willing to look at that as well. Until then, the players will continue to choose what's best for them at the time.

End of discussion.... because the one-trick pony can only maintain one thought in his head, therefore there's no room for any discussion. Bash bash bash all you want, because we all know about your rep.

I used the numbers you offered. Of course, now the numbers are different.

Get the numbers. The total prize money paid for 1 year. I'll do the math for you.

You know that if you come up with twice the amount of prize money you intially indicated then the payout would be 4%.

If you come up with 10 times (which you won't) then the payout is 20%

The old "get what's in his pocket into mine and make him feel good about it" as an example of business is fine when both parties know what they're doing.

But when Mr. Big cheats Mr. Little because Mr. Little doesn't know any better.........that's not business........that's stealing

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 03:18 PM
I used the numbers you offered. Of course, now the numbers are different.


LOL.... You are still so clueless... No numbers have differed. You don't even have a clue of what numbers you are talkin about.

You try to compare one set of numbers to a different set of numbers, no wonder why you get faulty results.

BTW.... Looks like I nailed your response... One trick pony with a negative agenda.... That's all you are....

P.S. I answered your questions..... You still have responded to the question of what are the positives to any league other than your own? You're still dodging....

Go ahead and continue to degenerate.... One trick pony.

Wally in Cincy
03-09-2005, 03:22 PM
My opoinion of the APA financial structure.

230,000 members average 30 matches a year at $6 a pop. That's $41,000,000

LO pays out at least half in prize monies and paying for city tournies and Vegas trips. That's about 20 million left.

LO sends probably 30% franchise fee to national office. That's 6 million to national office, 14 million to LO's

National office uses that 6 million for tourneys, payouts and operations.

FWIW

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 03:25 PM
Well, as long as you are in the bashing mode, do you Bash other leagues as well?

How about The Association for POOL league (TAP)? What bashes do you have about that one? It's a handicapped league as well that tried to be a copy cat.

What about BCA do you bash?

What about VNEA do you bash?

How about USPPA?


At least we'll see if you're consistent.... Equal opportunity basher.

Rant and rave about one.... you rant and rave about em all.... Let's see...

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 03:39 PM
LOL.... You are still so clueless... No numbers have differed. You don't even have a clue of what numbers you are talkin about.

You try to compare one set of numbers to a different set of numbers, no wonder why you get faulty results.

BTW.... Looks like I nailed your response... One trick pony with a negative agenda.... That's all you are....

P.S. I answered your questions..... You still have responded to the question of what are the positives to any league other than your own? You're still dodging....

Go ahead and continue to degenerate.... One trick pony.

They're hard to defend aren't they?????

Get the numbers.

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 03:41 PM
They're hard to defend aren't they?????

Get the numbers.

What positives of other leagues are you referring to?

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 03:49 PM
Well, as long as you are in the bashing mode, do you Bash other leagues as well?

How about The Association for POOL league (TAP)? What bashes do you have about that one? It's a handicapped league as well that tried to be a copy cat.

What about BCA do you bash?

What about VNEA do you bash?

How about USPPA?


At least we'll see if you're consistent.... Equal opportunity basher.

Rant and rave about one.... you rant and rave about em all.... Let's see...

More the same with BCA and VNEA Both are bar pool leagues which can't work longterm for the growth of the sport.

BCA has recently changed hands. We'll have to see what the new owner offers. But, the old BCA was totally out of touch with competitive pool. They are a trade organization. Not the governing body they claim to be. Their referee staff is equivalent to the 3 Stooges. I assume the 3 Stooges knew nothing about pool. They were the 3 stooges, the BCA is the 100 (or more) Stooges. They are quite a bit different when it comes to a national tournament. They are/were? an association of independent leagues as opposed to a national league. They are closer to doing it right than the APA. Their prize money totals are way more in line than the APA.

Most importantly they don't have a handicap system that is the laughing stock of pool. A national handicap system is not possible. At least they know it and play without handicap.

The TAP and USSSA have never been in my area.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 03:51 PM
What positives of other leagues are you referring to?

I have no idea what this means.

Get the numbers.

chefjeff
03-09-2005, 03:53 PM
They're hard to defend aren't they?????

Get the numbers.

230,000 APA members, plus
60,000 BCA/whatever that new one is, plus
30,000 VNEA members, plus
50,000 various other league members (I'm guessing here)

equals approximately 370,000 members nationwide.

If each averages $5 a week for 25 weeks that equals $46,250,000 of gross revenue per year from league play only.

Now, add in additional player spending for drinks, food, etc. of $10 a night (too low?) and the total triples to about $150,000,000.

Now, add in spectators' spending of about 25 cents per night...ah forget that part, I guess. I'm not counting cues, etc. either.

That's a lot of dough. 150 million dollar market is nothing to sneeze at.

Jeff Livingston

Nomoney
03-09-2005, 04:04 PM
the one and only way, to get big money into pool is. sell shovels for it's funeral.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 04:05 PM
230,000 APA members, plus
60,000 BCA/whatever that new one is, plus
30,000 VNEA members, plus
50,000 various other league members (I'm guessing here)

equals approximately 370,000 members nationwide.

If each averages $5 a week for 25 weeks that equals $46,250,000 of gross revenue per year from league play only.

Now, add in additional player spending for drinks, food, etc. of $10 a night (too low?) and the total triples to about $150,000,000.

Now, add in spectators' spending of about 25 cents per night...ah forget that part, I guess. I'm not counting cues, etc. either.

That's a lot of dough. 150 million dollar market is nothing to sneeze at.

Jeff Livingston

So, if you're numbers are correct, in 26 years we've gotten 370,000 people currently playing pool league?????????

The US is approaching a population of 300,000,000. Therefore, we have about one tenth of one percent of the people playing organized pool league.

Doesn't sound like growth to me. Sounds like stagnation.

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 04:12 PM
More the same with BCA and VNEA Both are bar pool leagues which can't work longterm for the growth of the sport.

Can't work why? Simply because they are bar pool???


Their referee staff is equivalent to the 3 Stooges.
That comment has no details.... Use real language other than 3 stooges.


They are quite a bit different when it comes to a national tournament. They are/were? an association of independent leagues as opposed to a national league. They are closer to doing it right than the APA.

Elaborate....

Their prize money totals are way more in line than the APA.
Where are you getting your facts from? Would like to see that info.


Most importantly they don't have a handicap system that is the laughing stock of pool. A national handicap system is not possible. At least they know it and play without handicap.

Without any handicap system, then your appeal will be limited to only the pros. Even you said that you subdivide people into categories (at least advanced, and beginner) - that is a form of a handicap system. The player who takes first place in the beginner section wouldn't be able to, without you having classified everyone else as better. Next of all, how can you be sure that the top 10 players in the beginner section shouldn't be in the advanced section - and vice versa - the bottom 10 players in the advanced section shouldn't be in the beginner section. Sounds like your system is purely subjective based on nothing other than 1 person's opinions. Now, if you go into another pool hall, then their division of beginner and advanced will occur on a different standard than yours. Do you have any guidelines to base the decisions?

Now... if you divide on beginner and advanced.... then how about intermediate? What if you want a level between beginner and intermediate... or between intermediate and advanced? What if there is too big of a difference between all of your beginners, can you then subdivide into a even more beginner.... and a better than beginner beginner? How about the advanced players, if only the same 5 players win all the time, do the other players remain financing those players, or do they break off like the cheap pool players you claim and find some other venue where they can come out with a little bit more positive money flow?


The TAP and USSSA have never been in my area.
OK... probably inconsequential anyway...

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 04:17 PM
Teacherman....

Kinda ironic how u keep on saying that APA, BCA, and VNEA can't work....

Yet they are the largest 3 pool organizations and have been for years....

Reality doesn't mesh with your statements....

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 04:17 PM
The younger you start anything the better. Bar leagues can not be the lead for the sports' growth because they can not (or will not) start youth programs.

Much easier to get 100 kids started playing pool seriously than 100 adults. The connection to organized pool must come at an age much younger than 21.

Referees....

All you need to know is that many referees are certified after a 2 hour crash course the day of the event. They simple are inept at the BCA.

Small computer crash......back now to finish.

BCA National Tournament....And handicapping.

It's an association of independent leagues who come together for a national tournament. APA is one big league. One big national league will never work because a national handicap system will never work. BCA has teams play scratch at the national level. Only way it can work.

Local inhouse handicapping can work. It can be used to attract beginners to competitive pool. It can be used to grow and give beginners a lift. But, for national tournaments, only scratch play has a chance. As it should be. Locally, giving a beginner a bump with a handicap is fine. But, completely taking away his drive to get better by using handicaps at regional or nationals is to the detriment of the player and the sport.

The money......

BCA is/was a nonprofit organization. They collect entry fees for their national tournament and pay their expenses then pay prize money out of what's left. I've multiplied entry fees X number of teams and compared it to payout and it is in line. Have no idea what their expenses are. But, have to assume there are some. Payout is fair. Would be better with a national association of pool rooms.

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 04:23 PM
The younger you start anything the better. Bar leagues can not be the lead for the sports' growth because they can not (or will not) start youth programs.

Much easier to get 100 kids started playing pool seriously than 100 adults. The connection to organized pool must come at an age much younger than 21.

I hear your negatives.... do you have any solutions for bringing younger players into Pool?



Referees....

All you need to know is that many referees are certified after a 2 hour crash course the day of the event. They simple are inept at the BCA.
OK...
So once again, what's your solution? You think you can create a referee's organization similar to high school sports?

chefjeff
03-09-2005, 04:26 PM
The younger you start anything the better. Bar leagues can not be the lead for the sports' growth because they can not (or will not) start youth programs.

Much easier to get 100 kids started playing pool seriously than 100 adults. the connection to organized pool must come at an age much younger than 21.

Referees....

Our local ESPN sports channel just had the Iowa High School Bowling championships on this week. Very nice and it made me think that this would be a good direction for pool, but you're right, a bar league doesn't do good for this aspect of our wonderful game.

But, for the last 5 years, our area of about 1/2 million people did NOT have even one pool hall, just bars. So where did I play all the time?....bars, where else? At least I could play somewhere. However, thanks to Rory Hendrickson, we now have a great place and half of it is designed for the under 21 crowd. I'm hopeful that the youngsters will play often, perhaps even in organized competition.

Jeff Livingston

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 04:33 PM
Our local ESPN sports channel just had the Iowa High School Bowling championships on this week. Very nice and it made me think that this would be a good direction for pool, but you're right, a bar league doesn't do good for this aspect of our wonderful game.

But, for the last 5 years, our area of about 1/2 million people did NOT have even one pool hall, just bars. So where did I play all the time?....bars, where else? At least I could play somewhere. However, thanks to Rory Hendrickson, we now have a great place and half of it is designed for the under 21 crowd. I'm hopeful that the youngsters will play often, perhaps even in organized competition.

Jeff Livingston

The issue with pool being connected to bars, is that in most establishments it's the liquor and food that makes the money. The pool tables make very little, but they keep people's attention long enough until they do finally eat or drink for the real money. One solution, is to disconnect bars & smoking from pool halls.

In our area there are pool halls that have opened up, that have no liquor licences. They don't even have a kitchen. The lack of alcohol is made up by the number of under 21 players that frequent the place. They charge $8/hour on the tables, with a few specials. They make it pretty fine, and are even expanding and opening other branches....

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 04:40 PM
I hear your negatives.... do you have any solutions for bringing younger players into Pool?



OK...
So once again, what's your solution? You think you can create a referee's organization similar to high school sports?

I edited my previous post after a minor computer crash.....

The last thing I'd want is an association of referees similar to high school sports. They may rank below BCA refs.

You've heard the saying......Best referees in the world are in the NBA....and they aren't very good. Go down the ladder from D league, DI, DII, DIII, juco, to high school............guess what........they aren't very good.

But, I can take the top 10 players out of my room, have them referee a vegas BCA or APA tournament and odds are very high that not one mistake would be made.

They have many (100's) and they are helpless.

If you are going to pay someone to referee you have to pay a quality player. Taking a test on the rules of 8 ball is the last qualification for a referee. Good hits/bad hits and other intricacies of the game are the need. Not recitation of rules.

Anyone can look up the rule in a book. Only very serious pool enthusiasts can make the right calls.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 04:45 PM
Our local ESPN sports channel just had the Iowa High School Bowling championships on this week. Very nice and it made me think that this would be a good direction for pool, but you're right, a bar league doesn't do good for this aspect of our wonderful game.

But, for the last 5 years, our area of about 1/2 million people did NOT have even one pool hall, just bars. So where did I play all the time?....bars, where else? At least I could play somewhere. However, thanks to Rory Hendrickson, we now have a great place and half of it is designed for the under 21 crowd. I'm hopeful that the youngsters will play often, perhaps even in organized competition.

Jeff Livingston

You do what you have to do. No rooms. Play in bars.

But, now that you have a place, give him your support. He has invested in the billiard industry............not the bar industry. Using pool to sell a Budweiser will not get us there.

I have a bar. I sell alcohol. I need the business to cover the overhead. But, I don't use pool to sell alcohol. My pool time is my bread and butter. My pool business is 50% pool 50% bar and grille. And for those of you that think that's hardly heavy pool, consider that most pool rooms are likely to be 10-20% pool, 80% bar and grille.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 04:48 PM
The issue with pool being connected to bars, is that in most establishments it's the liquor and food that makes the money. The pool tables make very little, but they keep people's attention long enough until they do finally eat or drink for the real money. One solution, is to disconnect bars & smoking from pool halls.

In our area there are pool halls that have opened up, that have no liquor licences. They don't even have a kitchen. The lack of alcohol is made up by the number of under 21 players that frequent the place. They charge $8/hour on the tables, with a few specials. They make it pretty fine, and are even expanding and opening other branches....

I've owned both kinds, with and without alcohol.

A very low ceiling on the without. Way more upside (and problems) on the with. But, with or without, sell pool to the youth. That is a fundamental key to the sports success.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 04:53 PM
My pool room has either directly or indirectly play a role in the development of 3 National Champions (junior and collegiate) and several other top finishers.

Not to mention all the others who take up the game and don't have that degree of success.

This doesn't happen in bars.

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 04:59 PM
But, I can take the top 10 players out of my room, have them referee a vegas BCA or APA tournament and odds are very high that not one mistake would be made.
Nice supposition based on 0 facts.... but that's your style, so be it...
There will be no way to resolve that, until you have a real world test. It would have to be a truly scientific test, absent of bias. Until then, many opinions (mostly yours) will fly, of course.


If you are going to pay someone to referee you have to pay a quality player. Taking a test on the rules of 8 ball is the last qualification for a referee. Good hits/bad hits and other intricacies of the game are the need. Not recitation of rules.

That's very obvious... Although technically it doesn't have to be a quality player. Many non-quality players are technically skilled enough to be able to referee in any sport. Sometimes experiences is a helpful factor, in situations. But most of refereeing deals with the theories of pool, which don't actually require any real world personal pool experience, as long as you can fully understand the theories. Of course, experience and playing is an obvious tool for helping understand and learn the theories.


Anyone can look up the rule in a book. Only very serious pool enthusiasts can make the right calls.
Of course on the same token many serious pool enthusiasts would also make horrible referees.

Just like in any other sport. Players do not always make for great referees. Likewise players don't always make for the best coaches. Although the experiences it takes to be a player, can also be a powerful step or aid towards being a ref or coach.

Basically saying absolutes beware....
Many flaws on that path....

TomShaw-P&B
03-09-2005, 05:02 PM
I have 25+ years of broadcasting background before coming to print and pool.

Money comes from corporate advertising.
Corporations want mass, upscale, male audiences 18-25.
TV is the only way to get mass audiences.
Pool on TV draws very good audiences - male 45+
End of story (until this nut is cracked).

Tom

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 05:11 PM
I have 25+ years of broadcasting background before coming to print and pool.

Money comes from corporate advertising.
Corporations want mass, upscale, male audiences 18-25.
TV is the only way to get mass audiences.
Pool on TV draws very good audiences - male 45+
End of story (until this nut is cracked).

Tom

Brilliant.....lets put 6 beers in a carton and call it a 6 pack.....brilliant. :D

How do you suggest we develop a mass male pool audience between 18-25???

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 05:19 PM
Brilliant.....lets put 6 beers in a carton and call it a 6 pack.....brilliant.

How do you suggest we develop a mass male pool audience between 18-25???

Skipping over and avoiding the post with questions to you starting with

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacherman
More the same with BCA and VNEA Both are bar pool leagues which can't work longterm for the growth of the sport.

Can't work why? Simply because they are bar pool???
... with many other questions regarding weaknesses in your position

Avoiding the questions alltogether... brilliant.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 09:27 PM
Skipping over and avoiding the post with questions to you starting with

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacherman
More the same with BCA and VNEA Both are bar pool leagues which can't work longterm for the growth of the sport.

Can't work why? Simply because they are bar pool???
... with many other questions regarding weaknesses in your position

Avoiding the questions alltogether... brilliant.

Either you don't read well or you don't comprehend what you read. For then nth time, the real growth will start when the juniors are playing pool competitively.

And for the last 26 years, pool's grass roots attempt at growth has been centered in the bars. I wouldn't exactly call it successful when after 26 years you have one tenth of one percent of the population plaing pool competitively.

You will never get the pillars of the community interested in the sport if their venue is Joe's Corner Bar and Grille with 2 bar boxes in the smoke filled hoosier bar.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 09:33 PM
Back to Mr. Shaws suggestion, that the 18-25 year old demographic is what the advertisers want, that is exactly my customer.

Who's customer......the pool room's customer......not the bars customer.....the pool room's customer.

I've mentioned before that the life blood of the pool room is 18-married. Which is almost identical to 18-25. That group of people is out almost every night of the week. Either in college or working but they go out almost every night for at least a few hours. The pool room is the perfect place for them.

Although the minors in this group can not drink, the room offers several types of entertainment including pool, music, sports and yes, their number 1 goal, a home for their heat seeking missles. :D

Of course, the majors in this group get to partake in the entire package.

The pool room is the perfect place to grow the demographic that the advertisers are looking for.

JAM
03-10-2005, 02:53 AM
Interesting viewpoints! One thing about demographics, though, that should be considered is the 45-and-over crowd generally has more money at their disposal to SPEND than the younger generation, 18 through 25. The bottom line with prospective corporate sponsors is how much money they will receive as a return on their investment.

Most pool players -- not all, but most -- do not reach a level of consistency in their game until they reach their mid twenties. There are exceptions to this fact, but I'm talking about the majority here.

A demographic study would be a good one to conduct as it pertains to pocket billiards. A corporate sponsor needs to know WHO is going to be spending the big bucks.

I think it comes down to name-brand recognition. To date, pool has NONE, with the exception of Jeanette Lee. You ask any of non-pool public about a famous pool player, and the response will be the Black Widow. Most have never heard of Earl Strickland or Corey Deuel, as two examples. The ladies' governing body of professional pool has made GREAT strides is accomplishing name-brand recognition. Their members are HAPPY as a whole, thanks to the fair and equitable practices, to include a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

The existing lot of pool players is diminishing. Some male world champion players are unable to keep up with the rest of the pack that enjoys the benefits of a FLAWED ranking system. Without a product, namely the players themselves, pool as a sport will continue to suffer.

When I attend pool functions around the country, those which include LEAGUE and amateur players seem to be the successful ones. Having the top world champions isn't a draw. The majority of audiences at pro events consist of players themselves, family and friends, but do not seem bring in too much in the way of income for the promoter/organizers. Go to the Derby City Classic, Glass City Open, and Super Billiards Expo, and you will see the masses of the pool-playing public, to include pool enthusiasts and fans. Pro events are not a money-maker (IMO), not yet at least.

JAM

pete lafond
03-10-2005, 06:09 AM
I agree that we do need one organization that encapsulates all leagues, or otherwise a governing body. Not the BCA, Not the VNE Not the APA,.. These would be considered independent leagues that could be under the direction of this new organization. This new organization would belong to the players and businesses and will not dictate to the in-house league, only the rules of play.

Handicaps are at the discretion of the independent business operating the in-house league.

This new organization that governs billiards could hold tournaments that are handicap free. This avoids sandbagging. The BCA has a big draw and does not handicap their tournament.

A statement earlier in this forum indicated that the league players are the thrust to managing and organizing professional billiards. Through this organization is how they would do it, though a difficult task at best.

I do not care that the BCA has changed hands. They failed and no one has time for them to get it right. How many years have they tried? It's a very good league just as other leagues are too.

pete lafond
03-10-2005, 06:24 AM
Mine (above) is a wish that would require a large organization or business people with cash to make it happen. Billiards and their leagues has done nothing more than create pockets of party animals (not entirely wrong). I posted ealier about Earl S. at a golf coarse and in his 4-some they asked what he did for a living. He said, he's a professional pool player. The next statement they made was "So your a pool shark". Degrading huh?

As long as pool players are organized under bars, which they should continue leagues there, what image can we expect? If more families participated in pool were kids could play as well, I believe we would begin creating a generation change that would cause an improved vision of pool. Right now, find a baby sitter for the kids while mom and dad go to the bar to play pool. Nothing entirely wrong here, we just need more family participation. Pool has been through a lot of crap over the years, smokey pool rooms, gambling,.. How do bars distract pool's image from the past. They don't.

chefjeff
03-10-2005, 07:25 AM
Back to Mr. Shaws suggestion, that the 18-25 year old demographic is what the advertisers want, that is exactly my customer.

Who's customer......the pool room's customer......not the bars customer.....the pool room's customer.

I've mentioned before that the life blood of the pool room is 18-married. Which is almost identical to 18-25. That group of people is out almost every night of the week. Either in college or working but they go out almost every night for at least a few hours. The pool room is the perfect place for them.

Although the minors in this group can not drink, the room offers several types of entertainment including pool, music, sports and yes, their number 1 goal, a home for their heat seeking missles. :D

Of course, the majors in this group get to partake in the entire package.

The pool room is the perfect place to grow the demographic that the advertisers are looking for.

Now that was nicely said...so I bet it was nicely understood, too. :cool:

Using honey to catch flies....Brilliant!

JAM said: Most pool players -- not all, but most -- do not reach a level of consistency in their game until they reach their mid twenties. There are exceptions to this fact, but I'm talking about the majority here.

One problem with this, mixed with the 18-married demo., is...I hesitate to say it, but hustling. Nothing like a naive 20-something giving up his lowly week's pay again---and thus eventually the game itself---to a more experienced player. Not always, but I've seen players who love the game, come in for some fun, get "robbed" and then put their tails between their legs and not return. This saddens me.

I'm not saying gambling doesn't improve one's game or is even immoral (see previous threads about 6 weeks ago or so for a lot more on this). I'm just saying that some great players sometimes kill the goose before any eggs ever are laid. And what does this do to the sport as a whole? This is a question that had better be considered, too, imho.

Trying to see the biggest picture possible,

Jeff Livingston

FLICKit
03-11-2005, 03:55 AM
Either you don't read well or you don't comprehend what you read. For then nth time, the real growth will start when the juniors are playing pool competitively.

And for the last 26 years, pool's grass roots attempt at growth has been centered in the bars. I wouldn't exactly call it successful when after 26 years you have one tenth of one percent of the population plaing pool competitively.

Of course you wouldn't, with your ever consistent pessimistic blinders on, that's all you're gonna see. One tenth of one percent.... once again you use very unscientific information as a basis for your ever pessimistic bashing. That's pure stupidity. You, nor I, have any idea how big the pool community is (including national pool leagues, local pool leagues, in-house pool leagues and tournaments, consistent gambling pool players, pool regulars, irregular pool attendees and the occasional ball bangers). All of that would comprise the data necessary to determine the growth or recession of pool over the years. Unscientifically (at least I know when using real factual numbers), looking at all the categories over the last 10 years even, there would be a clear growth in the pool community. One sign of that, which would be easier to obtain would be the number of businesses/establishments with pool tables. Each and every facet of this pool community would be contributors to its growth and success, and to the direction to take for the future.


You will never get the pillars of the community interested in the sport if their venue is Joe's Corner Bar and Grille with 2 bar boxes in the smoke filled hoosier bar.



In some of your other posts you finally at least made one positive suggestion of building growth in the younger generations. That would be a welcomed addition to the next generation of growth in the pool community.

Your consistent stance has been to try to tear down the already successful contributors to the pool community. That's pure stupidity and short sightedness. If you believe that pool growth should be fostered through a younger generation, then that's one approach of many. You'd be stupid to believe that's the only approach that must be taken, and therefore eliminate all others. Instead, you must do what it takes to foster growth of pool with the younger generations. In order for this to be successful, it'd have to go beyond the tiny little corner of the woods that you reside in. It would have to be a wave that traverses the country/continent/world. This has already begun. There are many avenues out there for youth involvement in pool. Could there be more? Very likely... This would have to be done via building up that pool community rather than tearing down. Your negativism will never succeed.

FLICKit
03-11-2005, 04:10 AM
Interesting viewpoints! One thing about demographics, though, that should be considered is the 45-and-over crowd generally has more money at their disposal to SPEND than the younger generation, 18 through 25. The bottom line with prospective corporate sponsors is how much money they will receive as a return on their investment... [shortened]

Very good post. You hold a much more comprehensive viewpoints of the solutions for the future (unlike Teacherman's stupidly simpleton viewpoints fraught with destruction and failure).

I think it comes down to name-brand recognition. To date, pool has NONE, with the exception of Jeanette Lee. You ask any of non-pool public about a famous pool player, and the response will be the Black Widow. Most have never heard of Earl Strickland or Corey Deuel, as two examples. The ladies' governing body of professional pool has made GREAT strides is accomplishing name-brand recognition. Their members are HAPPY as a whole, thanks to the fair and equitable practices, to include a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

Allison Fisher would also be well known, but I'd agree with you that Jeanette Lee would be the most recognized. Part of the success of the women's tour has been the organizations and sponsors which have backed and supported the women over the past years. Their visibility on ESPN (primarily) along with their presentability (good natured interaction and of course looks as well). They also have a quality whereby many non-professional men like to compare their own pool game with the allure that they could beat these women straight up. The women's skills and competition has strengthened significantly over the past years, and have therefore reduced the gap between the top men and top women. There's still more room for growth, but never know what the future may hold.

When I attend pool functions around the country, those which include LEAGUE and amateur players seem to be the successful ones. Having the top world champions isn't a draw. The majority of audiences at pro events consist of players themselves, family and friends, but do not seem bring in too much in the way of income for the promoter/organizers. Go to the Derby City Classic, Glass City Open, and Super Billiards Expo, and you will see the masses of the pool-playing public, to include pool enthusiasts and fans. Pro events are not a money-maker (IMO), not yet at least.
JAM
This is a concept that Teacherman will not be able to grasp, so expect a bashing response here... :p

JAM
03-11-2005, 05:08 AM
This is a concept that Teacherman will not be able to grasp, so expect a bashing response here... :p

It's makes perfect dollars and "sense" to me that league, amateur, and social shooters are in the majority of the pool-playing public. ;)

Hopefully, the Hilton-sponsored NAOT will reap some benefit from hosting an amateur event in the future. The first two stops on this tour, which were both sanctioned by the men's professional organization and attended by "touring pros" and a few "independents", were not money-makers. I spoke to a couple of folks who went to the Pittsburgh Hilton, and they said the attendance by spectators was very, very low. This is a sad fact in today's pool world, at least as it pertains to men's professional pool. :(

Until the organizations "fix" the problem of the extraordinary expenses of attending 4-, 5-, and 6-day events, the dilemma of low turnouts will grow, to include the players themselves. It is a financial burden on an aspiring pool player to compete in these sanctioned events, tournaments which are stretched out for 4 and 5 days and could have been held in 2 days quite easily.

The governing bodies of professional pool need to address this financial burden experienced by "pro" players, rather than continuing on their merry way with a select few. The lady players I have spoken to seem to like the WPBA and want to continue their quest to be all that they can be. I have spoken to MANY previous "touring pros" who have given up on starting at the bottom of the charts each and every time, while a select few get seeds and byes because of a faulty ranking system.

One current unnamed touring pro chuckles when he is reminded of his spot at the BCA Open this coming May. He will get to compete because of his attendance last year at the BCA Open in which he received ranking points, one of 32 American players, enabling him to stay at the top of the heap. It's quite easy to do when the BCA Open represents one-sixth of the whole tour.

Real nice deal, huh! :rolleyes:

JAM