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dogginda9
03-09-2005, 09:48 AM
I'm a little disturbed by something and I was wondering if I'm the only one or am I just wrong? First, let me state a few things. I don't begrudge a pool room owner from making a living. Second, I understand there is a big financial investment to make up when you put on a large event. Third, I was out of town so I wasn't even there last weekend. Now, this is what bothered me. A couple of friends of mine drove almost an hour to the Viking Tour Championship to watch a couple of local guys play. When they got to the door, they were told it would cost $25 to watch. They immediately left. I found out it was $10 the first couple of days and then $25 on Sat. and $30 on Sunday. This just seems to be WAY out of line to watch an open event with only a handful of Pro players in it. I could maybe see $5 or so being appropriate. How would a guy with a couple of kids go see a friend play on the weekend? Better yet, what about a players' family? You really couldn't make an exception without pissing people off. There it is. Sorry this went so long

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 10:02 AM
...Second, I understand there is a big financial investment to make up when you put on a large event.

No you don't.......Have you ever put the money up front and then tried to get it back?........And don't say you understand if you've voted with your feet and left. If you don't like the price, you have every right to leave. But don't go on the message board and complain about it. If you don't have what it takes to watch the match, don't blame someone else.

I don't know the details but the room owner has made a judgement on how many people will show and what price each needs to pay for the owner to come out.

IF he made a good judgement and IF the people pay the fare, THEN he gets even or makes a little.

Whatever the owner put up front is gone. He's the one gambling here. More so than the players.

And it's typical of fans to whine and complain about not enough events but they have no flippen clue what it takes. And usually won't do their part......Yea, joe is a great owner....put up another $1000 to have Sam play Dick.......let's go get a burger up the street......Got any water here?

Remember, the owner had his up front money before the match.

Why should he gamble on cheap ass pool fans, promote the event and then watch them pay and complain, or not pay at all.

You SOB's are the cheapest ass customers on earth.......OR the whiniest bunch of nags. Either one is less than desirable.

Jude Rosenstock
03-09-2005, 10:09 AM
I'm a little disturbed by something and I was wondering if I'm the only one or am I just wrong? First, let me state a few things. I don't begrudge a pool room owner from making a living. Second, I understand there is a big financial investment to make up when you put on a large event. Third, I was out of town so I wasn't even there last weekend. Now, this is what bothered me. A couple of friends of mine drove almost an hour to the Viking Tour Championship to watch a couple of local guys play. When they got to the door, they were told it would cost $25 to watch. They immediately left. I found out it was $10 the first couple of days and then $25 on Sat. and $30 on Sunday. This just seems to be WAY out of line to watch an open event with only a handful of Pro players in it. I could maybe see $5 or so being appropriate. How would a guy with a couple of kids go see a friend play on the weekend? Better yet, what about a players' family? You really couldn't make an exception without pissing people off. There it is. Sorry this went so long


You should consider the expenses of a player who doesn't cash which, by the way, happens to 75% of the field. The fact is, there are a lot of people that simply don't make money and shell out quite a bit in order to make these events possible. I know when I play in an out-of-town event, I automatically figure $500, assuming my friend is driving, we're sharing a hotel room, the tournament entry is $150 and we spend no more than two nights there. With that said, if I don't make more than $500 in winnings, I'm losing money and that's for a cheap event. Sadly, I'm fully aware that I could be playing the greatest pool of my life, get a tough draw and find myself in the stands.

With the exception of the most successful players, nobody is making money, not even the poolrooms. Poolrooms typically shell out quite a bit in added money and will forfeit several days of business in order to make the event possible. When they charge an admissions fee, they're not even trying to break-even. They're just trying to minimize their losses.

I'm sorry you feel $25 admission is excessive. Perhaps the next time you attend a baseball game, you can consider how much was spent on the day and how much you enjoyed your proximity to the action and your interaction with the players. All I'm trying to say is, everyone is spending money because without support from all pool-players, fans & business, there simply wouldn't be professional pool (men or women).

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 10:30 AM
If you are a player in a tournament, that the owner has put up $500 to $3000 (or more), and you don't eat every meal there, pay some pool time for practice, and have a few drinks/sodas you deserve to be barred from all events.

If you are a fan going to watch the same tournament and you don't spend a minimum of $25 each day, you should be barred.

At that point, your committment level is in the same ball park as the room owner.

Until the players committment level reaches that of the room owner, events are not feasible.

Cannon
03-09-2005, 10:42 AM
If you are a player in a tournament, that the owner has put up $500 to $3000 (or more), and you don't eat every meal there, pay some pool time for practice, and have a few drinks/sodas you deserve to be barred from all events.

If you are a fan going to watch the same tournament and you don't spend a minimum of $25 each day, you should be barred.

At that point, your committment level is in the same ball park as the room owner.

Until the players committment level reaches that of the room owner, events are not feasible.

Teach, not talking tournament time here but say you have a customer who comes in on a regular basis. He eats, has a few drinks, maybe plays a little pool, behaves himself and tips well. One day he comes in for a quick cup of coffee. What does that cost?

Jude Rosenstock
03-09-2005, 10:47 AM
If you are a player in a tournament, that the owner has put up $500 to $3000 (or more), and you don't eat every meal there, pay some pool time for practice, and have a few drinks/sodas you deserve to be barred from all events.

If you are a fan going to watch the same tournament and you don't spend a minimum of $25 each day, you should be barred.

At that point, your committment level is in the same ball park as the room owner.

Until the players committment level reaches that of the room owner, events are not feasible.


Teacherman, whenever I go away for an event, that's exactly what I do and I tip well on top of that. I'm not complaining. I'm simply saying that the expenses are passed around to everyone.

Egg McDogit
03-09-2005, 10:48 AM
dang dude it's not like your financial livelyhood as an
owner depends on recovering tournament costs/losses. I'm
sure that one of the reasons you host tournaments is to
keep your room on the map and to bring in new players.

The players don't have a responsibility to spend $x at your
room because you're having a tournament. You know exactly
what to expect...bunch of guys show up drinking sodas and
asking for free refills. Maybe eating some slimjims and
chips. That's just the way it works. Deal with it or
stop having tournaments.

To the other dude, if you drove 2 hours, why not just shell
out the $25? I agree it's a lot..but it's the owner's call.
Maybe he wants to keep people who aren't serious enough to
shell out a spectator fee out. Or maybe he just feels like
he can make money that way. His room, his call...sucks for
you, but oh well

peace
-Egg

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 10:53 AM
Teach, not talking tournament time here but say you have a customer who comes in on a regular basis. He eats, has a few drinks, maybe plays a little pool, behaves himself and tips well. One day he comes in for a quick cup of coffee. What does that cost?

Did I put up $3000 for a tournament that day?

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 10:56 AM
I am so glad you brought up BASEBALL, the biggest ripoff of all time. Then comes basketball and then football. Salaries have gotten so high I refuse to watch pro sports. It is MY WAY OF PROTESTING. When you consider the baseball players going on strike, I say bring in the minor leagues and pay them less. So what if the quality goes down. At least we will be rid of those too numerous to speak of whinning cry babies who never seem to make enough money. I will be that if we all simply do not watch pro sports it will come all toubling to the ground and they would have to start all over again. The power is in your hands folks. Just spread the word: watch no more sports, except for pool LOL. Sad but true. Pool players don't get paid enough money.

Now having gotten that off my chest, I would have done just what your friends did, walk from the tournament, as fast as I could.........simply because there is so much FREE action going on that I consider the entry price a rip off. For example, free CAT tours. Of course I live in a big city and others may not be so fortunate. I would not hesitate to take my kids to an APA league night as an alternative. Eat a burger and enjoy. Although others may have considered it a bargain or whatever, it is a free country and we all are driven by the law of supply and demand. The market will take care of itself. I think the poster above who called you cheap owes you a serious apology - it is your perogative to consider how you spend your money. For example, how do we know that that poster would not have spent $50 on beer while your crowd on the other hand may have bought school books with the money saved? How do we know that he didn't go crawling back to his little trailer in the woods with no money, and pull out his bottle? Sh*t, he was probably in the bottle when he wrote his thread. Then I have to ask myself what I am doing tyring to educate a bonehead anyway.

Cheers, WW

At least you're not ashamed of your cheap ass image. Just don't complain if there are few events for you to attend.

Cannon
03-09-2005, 10:59 AM
Did I put up $3000 for a tournament that day?


I meant when there is no tournament going on.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 11:07 AM
dang dude it's not like your financial livelyhood as an
owner depends on recovering tournament costs/losses. I'm
sure that one of the reasons you host tournaments is to
keep your room on the map and to bring in new players.

The players don't have a responsibility to spend $x at your
room because you're having a tournament. You know exactly
what to expect...bunch of guys show up drinking sodas and
asking for free refills. Maybe eating some slimjims and
chips. That's just the way it works. Deal with it or
stop having tournaments.

To the other dude, if you drove 2 hours, why not just shell
out the $25? I agree it's a lot..but it's the owner's call.
Maybe he wants to keep people who aren't serious enough to
shell out a spectator fee out. Or maybe he just feels like
he can make money that way. His room, his call...sucks for
you, but oh well

peace
-Egg

Unf****** believable. The poster boy for what's wrong with pool just showed up.

Don't worry about me. I don't hold these types of events. Financial considerations is priority one for a business owner. Bills need to get paid.

For me to run $5000-$6000 of business out of my place (business I would've done without the tournament) and then put up $3000 to host a tournament, then hope I get enough players and hope I get enough fans, it's plain stupid. Especially when I know that IF I get 64 players or more then I still can't make it because they'll order water and go down the street and spend $4 at McDonalds instead of $5 at my place.

Do you know what an owner has to gross on the weekend to recover his $3000?..................$8,000-$10,000. Impossible. By the time he pays for the cost of product and other overhead he may end up with $3000 out of the $8-$10,000. AND, that just breaks him even on the $3000 he put up. What about the $5000-$6000 of business he sacrificed to hold the tournament?????

No, don't worry about me. You'll never see an event like this at my place. But, for the sake of the other owners who sacrifice to hold these events........show some committment on your part. Carry your part of the load.

Shit, I don't stop at a gas station to use their bathroom without supporting them by buying something before I leave.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 11:09 AM
I meant when there is no tournament going on.

I have no problem with that customer dropping in and saying hi and having a cup of coffee.

The topic here is hosting events and what it takes to support them.

Jude Rosenstock
03-09-2005, 11:14 AM
Unf****** believable. The poster boy for what's wrong with pool just showed up.

Don't worry about me. I don't hold these types of events. Financial considerations is priority one for a business owner. Bills need to get paid.

For me to run $5000-$6000 of business out of my place (business I would've done without the tournament) and then put up $3000 to host a tournament, then hope I get enough players and hope I get enough fans, it's plain stupid. Especially when I know that IF I get 64 players or more then I still can't make it because they'll order water and go down the street and spend $4 at McDonalds instead of $5 at my place.

Do you know what an owner has to gross on the weekend to recover his $3000?..................$8,000-$10,000. Impossible. By the time he pays for the cost of product and other overhead he may end up with $3000 out of the $8-$10,000. AND, that just breaks him even on the $3000 he put up. What about the $5000-$6000 of business he sacrificed to hold the tournament?????

No, don't worry about me. You'll never see an event like this at my place. But, for the sake of the other owners who sacrifice to hold these events........show some committment on your part. Carry your part of the load.

Shit, I don't stop at a gas station to use their bathroom without supporting them by buying something before I leave.


Teacherman, this is a moronic discussion. These are the same people that are going to scream about how there never is a major event in their area and wonder why their local star refuses to give the professional tour a try because he can't make two nickels to rub together playing this game. If they cannot fathom the money it takes to make these events possible and comprehend that their door fee is a mere drop in the bucket, then writing about it in this forum ain't gonna help.

jjinfla
03-09-2005, 11:21 AM
Did you get a ringside chair? Was the price too high? Was it worth it? It all depends, how many tickets did he sell? The owner is providing a product and it is up to the customer to determine if it is worth the price. If he sold a good number of tickets then the price was right. if he didn't then either he over priced it or didn't have the proper stars there.

Looking at the brackets I find quite a few of the top pros listed.

Unfortunately many room owners do not charge any admission so people are used to being able to see top pros play for free. As a result the fans are spoiled. They expect to be entertained for free.

Capone's now sells his 15 seats for $15 - $20 at each event and sells out every time. People who want to walk around still get in for free. Of course that doesn't cover the table rental he loses by tying up the ten tables for the tournament. He even sold out when the women held the Spirit Tour a couple weeks ago. So that does show that people will pay to watch some good pool.

I am surprised that more owners don't charge admission.

Jake

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 11:22 AM
Teacherman, this is a moronic discussion. These are the same people that are going to scream about how there never is a major event in their area and wonder why their local star refuses to give the professional tour a try because he can't make two nickels to rub together playing this game. If they cannot fathom the money it takes to make these events possible and comprehend that their door fee is a mere drop in the bucket, then writing about it in this forum ain't gonna help.

Ditto

Which is the point of almost all my posts.

This game has NO CHANCE to be big. The pool underworld is uneducated, underfunded, whiny, and complainy.

One truth will never go away. No one can make money with broke customers. And without money you have no chance at BIG POOL.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 11:25 AM
I, personally, think it's pretty cheap when a player can't bring his significant other in. My fiancee comes to most of the tournaments I play in and, if I'm not playing, we're usually not in there watching matches. It irritates me to have to pay for her to watch me play, but whatever. I still pay, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. If they can't just let spouses in to watch their s.o.'s matches, I would at least like to see a "spousal rate" that is less than the "rack rate".

If the tournament is a smaller tournament with a smaller entry fee and there is an admission charge, then who cares? I'll pay a small fee for her to get in. My entry fee was low, so who cares if I have to spend a few extra bucks? In the case of that Trump tournament (the 10-ball tournament in Atlantic City), for example, that was a joke. I believe it was Grady that posted his story here, and a friend of mine from here in AZ went and had the same experience (but he stayed and paid the money). He went to play in the tournament and took his wife. After paying a high entry fee, hotel fees for the week, and pretty much every meal being eaten at the hotel, he had to fork over another $150 so his wife could watch all of his matches. That is out of line as far as I'm concerned (flame away, Teach! :D).

I don't have to say a thing. You know who and what you are.

DaveK
03-09-2005, 11:28 AM
I would have done just what your friends did, walk from the tournament, as fast as I could.........simply because there is so much FREE action going on that I consider the entry price a rip off.

It totally flabbergasts me when I read opinions like this in one thread , then in another I read where lots of people think that the pro's should have the opportunity to play for big bucks. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Dave

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 11:30 AM
Unf****** believable. The poster boy for what's wrong with pool just showed up.

Yeah... and the picture on the photo is of you. :p

Keep it up... I'm sure you'll continue to be the reigning champ Teacherman.

cuejoey
03-09-2005, 12:07 PM
I'm a little disturbed by something and I was wondering if I'm the only one or am I just wrong? First, let me state a few things. I don't begrudge a pool room owner from making a living. Second, I understand there is a big financial investment to make up when you put on a large event. Third, I was out of town so I wasn't even there last weekend. Now, this is what bothered me. A couple of friends of mine drove almost an hour to the Viking Tour Championship to watch a couple of local guys play. When they got to the door, they were told it would cost $25 to watch. They immediately left. I found out it was $10 the first couple of days and then $25 on Sat. and $30 on Sunday. This just seems to be WAY out of line to watch an open event with only a handful of Pro players in it. I could maybe see $5 or so being appropriate. How would a guy with a couple of kids go see a friend play on the weekend? Better yet, what about a players' family? You really couldn't make an exception without pissing people off. There it is. Sorry this went so long
i can see everyone's point...i was going to go saturday for a few hours.i called they told me it was $25.00 to enter on saturday and $15.00 per hour to play pool....at first i thought that $25.00 was alot i expectected about $10.00 but then i quickly realized that this is not a 1000 or more person capacity building...another thing they want to keep out problem people ...there is alot of money involved in promoting this type of event...also the 2 owners of this hall have a first class place..they are as good of pool hall owners as you will find...i don't think anyone would want the bill for the extra liability insurance they had to pay for this event either...bottom line $25.00 is alot to alot of us but there are not many of these events around so enjoy when and if you can......

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 12:12 PM
I'm having trouble finding the right words here ... ahh, yes, there they are.

Blow Me.

Poster Boy #2........

No Money & Bad Attitude.................yet, the typical pool customer. And from this we're supposed to build the POOL EMPIRE.

Mike Templeton
03-09-2005, 12:16 PM
I'm a little disturbed by something and I was wondering if I'm the only one or am I just wrong? First, let me state a few things. I don't begrudge a pool room owner from making a living. Second, I understand there is a big financial investment to make up when you put on a large event. Third, I was out of town so I wasn't even there last weekend. Now, this is what bothered me. A couple of friends of mine drove almost an hour to the Viking Tour Championship to watch a couple of local guys play. When they got to the door, they were told it would cost $25 to watch. They immediately left. I found out it was $10 the first couple of days and then $25 on Sat. and $30 on Sunday. This just seems to be WAY out of line to watch an open event with only a handful of Pro players in it. I could maybe see $5 or so being appropriate. How would a guy with a couple of kids go see a friend play on the weekend? Better yet, what about a players' family? You really couldn't make an exception without pissing people off. There it is. Sorry this went so long

Hopefully I can give my opinion without having to endure a pissing contest. I agree that it was a little out of line on price. Mike Janis puts on a great event, and room owners do have to make a profit. But looking at it from a fans point of viewand comparing it to other events, I think I paid $7 days and $10 evenings at Grady's Gulfport Classic in December and about the same (I don't really remember) at the Derby last year. $17 to $20 per day to watch ALL the best players in the world play is a great deal. To pay $30 per day (if that's what it was) to watch just a handful of pros play for the day is not such a good deal (IMO).

Mike

ScottR
03-09-2005, 12:34 PM
Poster Boy #2........

No Money & Bad Attitude.................yet, the typical pool customer.

At the risk of being poster boy #3, I have thought about how to say how your posts read. I think the safest way is to ask a question?

What do your customers think of you?

Scott Roberson
Atlanta, GA

Egg McDogit
03-09-2005, 12:49 PM
Unf****** believable. The poster boy for what's wrong with pool just showed up.

Don't worry about me. I don't hold these types of events. Financial considerations is priority one for a business owner. Bills need to get paid.


Hey be cool man it's just a forum...keep that blood pressure down haha. I gotta say, it's pretty funny to me that you tell me I'm what's wrong with pool - and then a few lines down you say you don't hold these events because you're just trying to get yours. Way to promote the game and set an example for what's right for the game of pool Sherlock Holmes.


Do you know what an owner has to gross on the weekend to recover his $3000?..................$8,000-$10,000. Impossible. By the time he pays for the cost of product and other overhead he may end up with $3000 out of the $8-$10,000. AND, that just breaks him even on the $3000 he put up. What about the $5000-$6000 of business he sacrificed to hold the tournament?????


Cry me a f'ing river. Having a tournament is a business decision...don't act like you do it solely for the players out of the kindness of your heart. You want to run a poolhall that the players consider legit? Then you're gonna have tournaments. It's a form of advertising. You use tournaments to let people know you're there/draw in new players and maintain the name of your poolhall. It's a business cost. Oh wait players are supposed to foot your business costs. My bad haha. Anyway no one's forcing you - I'm not trying to force you to have tourneys - I could give a f what you do. I'm just glad the owner of the poolhall I goto cares about the players. Man you've given me so much more appreciation for him.

For all that talk about players being cheap whiners...you're really coming off as a greedy elitist whiner.

peace
-Egg

or1pkt
03-09-2005, 01:06 PM
Ditto

Which is the point of almost all my posts.

This game has NO CHANCE to be big. The pool underworld is uneducated, underfunded, whiny, and complainy.

One truth will never go away. No one can make money with broke customers. And without money you have no chance at BIG POOL.
Complainy is that word in the dictionary. Well it may be in yours because i think before you post you look up words and phrases in the DICKtionary

Jack Flanagan
03-09-2005, 01:16 PM
I work for a living, and make a pretty good salary, if you must know. :D

(giggle).....does your boss know you are on this forum AND on the clock,,,no, wait, You're the boss, you must own a pool room & know what teacher and I put up with every day...

I own a pool room and know how it alienates the regular, paying customers when I have a tournament,,,I know how disappointed the few fans are when a "big" name player is a no show or 'literally' breaks his cue in disgust and leaves,,,,BUT people pay a lot more for a lot less,,,1st round knockouts in a prize fight just to name one,,,sometimes you don't get what you pay for, but if you don't pay & get in you may miss something worth more than the price of admission,,,IMHO...

Jack Flanagan
03-09-2005, 01:21 PM
Complainy is that word in the dictionary. Well it may be in yours because i think before you post you look up words and phrases in the DICKtionary

take 2 Prozac and call me in the morning.....<joke>...I'm also a retired English teacher,,,,everybody need a spellcheck now and then,,,It always amazes me how these threads degenerate into a pissing contest,,,LOL

vapoolplayer
03-09-2005, 01:24 PM
the original poster complained about how there were "only a few top pro's"...........and that 25 bucks was to much..........yet people go to pro boxing matches to watch TWO fighters (who may or may not be top fighters) for more than that. hell you'd pay 8 bucks (or more to see a movie) then you buy food at the movie theatre.........there you just spent 25 bucks........

earl was there...........he's a WORLD CHAMPION for crying out loud..........the 25 was worth just seeing him play. if you want free pool, go watch the local "A" player who couldn't hold a candle to most of the pro players.

my .02


VAP

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 01:43 PM
Heh, every time you open your mouth you show how ignorant you are by lumping everyone together. I work for a living, and make a pretty good salary, if you must know. Bad attitude? If you want to interpret it that way. You're a dick head. Why would I have a "good attitude" toward you? :D

If you make good money, either pay the door fee for your girlfriend OR stop whining about it.

The fee is there for a reason.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 01:56 PM
What is abundantly clear is the "hey, I'm a pool player" image and these people's insistance that they are the foundation for a pool room.

They couldn't be farther from the truth.

Yet, they insist they are.

And, regardless of the facts, they know more than the owner.

Reminds me of the definition of insanity.......doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results.

The general public is by far the monetary foundation of any upscale pool room.

And, whenever a pool room owner (many times a player himself) would like to have a nice pool event, he can not depend on the players support..........unless it's free...........or so cheap that the event can not be successful.

Jack Flanagan
03-09-2005, 01:57 PM
Why not make a point instead of mindlessly babbling and attempting to be insulting.

back at 'ya !.....I there was any reason for you to jump in ?,,,read your own quote,,,just another dissatisfied ,wanna be free to put mindless drivel on a "chat room" ___________,,,wish you could be in a pool room all day, plenty of them for sale,,, then you might understand the headaches of operating a business where you have to interact with 'real' people all day,,,computers don't talk back, YET !

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 02:00 PM
At the risk of being poster boy #3, I have thought about how to say how your posts read. I think the safest way is to ask a question?

What do your customers think of you?

Scott Roberson
Atlanta, GA

If you read far enough you'll see that I don't hold these events so therefore I am speaking my mind trying to help those rooms that do.

I can say what they are thinking but are afraid to say.

There isn't a week go by that my customers don't ask for an event like these. I tell them no and show them why financially it's a bad deal. They get their "event" fix at other rooms. Yet, they always come back to mine. Why?

Has to do with money. Making it. Reinvesting it into the room so they have a nice place to play. Has to do with offering them a good league system that they can enjoy. The $3000 that the "event" room added to his tournament left town with the winner and his place is a little run down. The $3000, that I refused to give to the road player that I'll never see until I up another $3000, I reinvested in my room, redecorated, or bought new equipment or new TV's or recarpeted the room etc etc.

The places that hold these types of tournaments locally are all far from upscale. They get the tournaments. I get the business.

Who's got the better deal?

ScottR
03-09-2005, 02:21 PM
If you read far enough you'll see that I don't hold these events so therefore I am speaking my mind trying to help those rooms that do.



Teacherman, I did read all the posts. I guess my question had more to do with this comment you made a few posts back:

"No Money & Bad Attitude.................yet, the typical pool customer."

If that is your opinion of your typical customer, why do you run the business? Sounds like if I threw up at the sight of blood and became a surgeon.

I am truly not trying to join a pissing match; just understand where a successful room owner is coming from toward his clientele. Thanks.

pete lafond
03-09-2005, 02:21 PM
The pool hall I frequent is also a Joss tour stop. The pool hall use to add $5000 to the money (now they add $2000), plus pay for some players hotel rooms. Now this pool hall added an admission of $10 per day (should be more) to watch the tournament. Some people *****ed. They had no reason, they just *****ed. People still showed up and paid and those that protested did not show up at first until they realized they would be left out.

In any event I think that this whole thing is screwed up. Why should the pool hall add any money. They lose the use of the tables and have to clean up afterwards, no income. Sure they sell more food and drinks but big deal. It takes work to get one of these things organized.

I believe that it should be up to the tounament operators and players to find money for this event, not rely on the pool hall. The pool hall puts up the facility and should profit from this. This is what makes sense to me.

No matter the event, I guess it all comes back to no-one has any money to spend on pool.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 02:27 PM
..."No Money & Bad Attitude.................yet, the typical pool customer."

...If that is your opinion of your typical customer

Don't confuse typical pool customer with typical customer. One has an attitude. The other has discretionary income. :D

Which would you prefer to do business with?

ScottR
03-09-2005, 02:46 PM
Don't confuse typical pool customer with typical customer. One has an attitude. The other has discretionary income. :D

Which would you prefer to do business with?

Maybe I misunderstand your business. I thought it was running a pool room, granted it's an upscale one. :) So, I'm reading that the customers you cater to are those who come to your place to eat, drink and play a little pool, in that order. The other customer base that you've had bad experiences with are "real" pool players who are not so "spendy". :D

Am I getting closer? If so, my response would be that I'd like to do business with both, but understand that that may be a pipe dream. I'm trying to think of a place that does both and am coming up dry.

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 02:50 PM
Don't confuse typical pool customer with typical customer. One has an attitude. The other has discretionary income. :D

Which would you prefer to do business with?

Definitely not the one with an attitude,
therefore, definitely not you.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 02:56 PM
My business takes different directions.

At one time we had 54 pool league teams playing weekly. That is a fair number of pool hobbyists (which I'll call pool players) mixed in with some "here for the beer" teams.

There are always exceptions, but the pool player group would get out spent by the others by about 3 or 4 to 1.

There are always exceptions, but the pool player group would be the most vocal, most irritated when something didn't go their way, most violent of the two.

There are always exceptions, but the pool player group would be the most critical of handicaps regardless of truth. (they always pursued an advantage, not fairness)

There are always exceptions, but the pool player group would be the first to ask for tournaments and then not show up.

Over time, you learn to like one group more than another.

BTW, when I first opened I would have to be categorized as a pool player.

ScottR
03-09-2005, 02:58 PM
Interesting. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Scott

1pRoscoe
03-09-2005, 03:00 PM
If you read far enough you'll see that I don't hold these events so therefore I am speaking my mind trying to help those rooms that do.

I can say what they are thinking but are afraid to say.

There isn't a week go by that my customers don't ask for an event like these. I tell them no and show them why financially it's a bad deal. They get their "event" fix at other rooms. Yet, they always come back to mine. Why?

Has to do with money. Making it. Reinvesting it into the room so they have a nice place to play. Has to do with offering them a good league system that they can enjoy. The $3000 that the "event" room added to his tournament left town with the winner and his place is a little run down. The $3000, that I refused to give to the road player that I'll never see until I up another $3000, I reinvested in my room, redecorated, or bought new equipment or new TV's or recarpeted the room etc etc.

The places that hold these types of tournaments locally are all far from upscale. They get the tournaments. I get the business.

Who's got the better deal?

this is, I believe, your wisest post to date.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 04:09 PM
Definitely not the one with an attitude,
therefore, definitely not you.

The attitude that you don't like is the key to the success of my business.

Which, of course, you're incapable of understanding.

May be when you get a little experience your words will have meaning.

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 04:28 PM
The attitude that you don't like is the key to the success of my business.

Which, of course, you're incapable of understanding.

May be when you get a little experience your words will have meaning.

LOL.... Prime example...

Do you have any idea of my level of experience? You may make some wild a$$ed guesses, but that's all you can do without having facts...

Nor do I have to volunteer any info, to someone with an attitude like yours.


Let's speak with the same lame viewpoint like yours....
Anyone with an attitude like yours won't remain in business for long. Anyone with such a pissy viewpoint towards his customers and the people around em will inevitably fail. It's only a matter of time. Takes smarter business practices in order to make it in business. If I had a pool room in your area, I'd put yours and 10 other like it outta business in no time...

vapoolplayer
03-09-2005, 04:52 PM
My business takes different directions.

At one time we had 54 pool league teams playing weekly. That is a fair number of pool hobbyists (which I'll call pool players) mixed in with some "here for the beer" teams.

There are always exceptions, but the pool player group would get out spent by the others by about 3 or 4 to 1.

There are always exceptions, but the pool player group would be the most vocal, most irritated when something didn't go their way, most violent of the two.

There are always exceptions, but the pool player group would be the most critical of handicaps regardless of truth. (they always pursued an advantage, not fairness)

There are always exceptions, but the pool player group would be the first to ask for tournaments and then not show up.

Over time, you learn to like one group more than another.

BTW, when I first opened I would have to be categorized as a pool player.


great post..........gives some insight as to how hard it is to mix business and pool together.......

and until there are more "exceptions" to the "pool player" group..........pro pool is doomed.

thanks

VAP

wayne
03-09-2005, 04:57 PM
[QUOTE=Teacherman]The attitude that you don't like is the key to the success of my business.

Your attitude on here sucks. If you have the same attitude with your customers I certainly wouldn't want to be one.

Here in Los Angeles area there are many different poolhalls that cater to different publics:

Hollywood Billiards is super upscale and caters to the ballbangers for most of their income, however, poolplayers probably spend about $10,000 a month there and the owner is repectful of us (not like the above owner).

HardTimes is a players poolhall and seems to do very well catering mainly to poolplayers and is one of the finest and toughest players halls in the country (respectful owner).

House of Billiards Santa Monica has a huge base of (the dreaded) poolplayers and does a great business off of them and most of their income is generated off them (however my understanding is the owner is also an a-hole towards players).

House of Billiards in the Valley mainly caters to ballbangers but does good business off of poolplayers also (owner was a-hole to players but now that his son has become one he is a little better).

Shooters in Riverside, great for poolplayers, tournament room first class, the nicest owner I have ever met toward players, probably depends on both types of players for success.

There are dozens of others but these are the ones I mainly play at. Maybe in middle America things are different but here in Los Angeles poolplayers are pretty cool.

Wayne

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 05:01 PM
LOL.... Prime example...

Do you have any idea of my level of experience? You may make some wild a$$ed guesses, but that's all you can do without having facts...

Nor do I have to volunteer any info, to someone with an attitude like yours.


Let's speak with the same lame viewpoint like yours....
Anyone with an attitude like yours won't remain in business for long. Anyone with such a pissy viewpoint towards his customers and the people around em will inevitably fail. It's only a matter of time. Takes smarter business practices in order to make it in business. If I had a pool room in your area, I'd put yours and 10 other like it outta business in no time...

You have to make several large leaps to conclude that my business is in jeopardy because of what I post on bulletin boards.

Don't ever forget that growing a business does not mean you have to accept all offers. I'm allowed to run my business and not let my business run me.

I'll also be the first to acknowledge that the way I run things today (15 yrs later) is different than when I was brand new.

Also, don't ever underestimate the good people. They appreciate a leader who takes a stand and runs off the undesireable element. Instead of a loose 10,000 I may have a solid 8000 that can't be blown out with dynamite.

Again, things you don't understand.

FLICKit
03-09-2005, 05:15 PM
You have to make several large leaps to conclude that my business is in jeopardy because of what I post on bulletin boards.

Don't ever forget that growing a business does not mean you have to accept all offers. I'm allowed to run my business and not let my business run me.

And the customers are allowed to take their business elsewhere, which is what many of em do. People will frequent a place that is satisfactory and that caters to their needs. If a business doesn't meet up to these needs, then the customer will make their feelings known with their pocketbooks.

I'll also be the first to acknowledge that the way I run things today (15 yrs later) is different than when I was brand new.

Of course you believed that you were right about everything 15 years ago. Just like you believe you're right about everything now. You probably think you know everything now. Of course in another 15 years, you'll learn all the things you were wrong about now. That's life. Some learn the lessons harder than others. Some simply never learn em at all.

Also, don't ever underestimate the good people. They appreciate a leader who takes a stand and runs off the undesireable element. Instead of a loose 10,000 I may have a solid 8000 that can't be blown out with dynamite.

Again, things you don't understand.
Of course leaders lead by example. The examples they set say much more about their character than any other aspect about them. You have demonstrated your character and class quite consistently, and most people recognize you as such.

frankncali
03-09-2005, 06:56 PM
I have been to your place and thought it was a very nice room. I got
good service and overall had a great time.
After reading the posts here by you I am surprised that the place was run so well. It just sounds to me like you hate pool and pool players.

I agree with some pool players being cheap but at the same time I ahve been one and can see our point. This is something we do 200 times a year. Most pool players spend way too much of their income throughout the year on POOL. But its pretty addictive.
When we are in a pool room 5 days a week and spend 20 bucks a day that can add up. I think its easier for owner to see the group that comes one day per week or 10 days and spend 100 per person. Looks like more but its not.

I have managed a pool room and have run tournaments. I have had some experience but not as mich as you. IMO tournaments are run for the locals and for advertising and for promotion of the business. I think that if a room owner only looks at that particular weekend for breaking even or making money then he is looking at it wrong.
I have heard the "road player" arguement several time and my response would be how many times have you or any other rooms had an event just for locals. That would be great in my book. I dont care about a bunch of roadies
coming in. Why not bring in a couple of Pros for an exhibition and trick shooting? Make it about giving back to the players in your room.

Its pretty expensive to put on an event like the Viking finals so that is a different senario but $25 bucks is high. How many guys can spend their normal amount of pool dollars and then spend an additional 50-100 to watch a
tournament for one day. Make it more reasonable not free. I ahve no problem paying but I cant spend money there if its all going to entry.

Like I mentioned already, I have been to one of your places and it was nice.
I really liked it and do wish you all the luck in the world with the business.
I just cant see it as cut and dry as you can.

3RAIL KICK
03-09-2005, 08:10 PM
I play pool, but I am not a 'player'. I think I have learned something from this spirited discussion. Hearing from the perspective of the room owner as to the real costs (opportunity) of running a tournament is helpful in understanding why he might choose to not have one or more likely, to decide not to have another one.

I've decided to appreciate more those local nightly tournaments, and especially the larger weekend tournaments that we occaisionally have in this area. My thanks to these local room operators and their staffs.

Often we don't appreciate what we have until it is gone. I wouldn't want that to be the case with these local tournaments. My participation amounts to 'dead money' as far as the purse is considered, but I do enjoy playing regardless of the outcome.

I guess I just like to play pool and wouldn't want to see any of those opportunities taken away because of something I have some control of. I'll pay my entry, buy some food and drink, tip as warranted, pay an admission if not competing and in general try to support the establishment providing me an outlet for my addiction to this game.

cheesemouse
03-09-2005, 08:20 PM
I have tried to stay out of this one but...knowing something about the Food &Beverage, the Service business, and the Poolhall business I couldn't resist. Lets just say the poolhall business is really the F&Beverage business because in effect you can't crack the nut with just pool, it just ain't going to happen.
Teach makes good points about the business side of the fence. He may come across as a dicitoral know it all but he does so based on HIS experience trying to keep the doors open. This is a tough business with a very high failure rate. If your a hands on operator/owner the hours are brutal. You are in constant state of hiring, firing, training, and that is just the front end of the operation. The back end is scheduling, accounting, maintaining equiptment, cleaning the physical plant, and dealing with employees personal problems. If you can keep a lid on this type of business you just have to be good a crisis manager because that's what you do on a day to day basis. Even though Teach maybe a small operator, two units, he will probably never have the type of operation that can expand beyond his personal presents. It seems he is a mom & pop type operation and there sure is nothing wrong with that. Being the MAN of his plan everything depends on his seat of the pants decisions ( crisis management ). I maybe making some serious assumptions here but these assumptions are pretty standard for the business's where the owners footsteps are the best fertilizer for his business.
#1> I'll bet he has'nt taken a two week vacation in years; why, because he doesn't trust anyone with his baby. He is strung pretty tight...LOL
#2>Why is he such a hardnose? Knows his units are doing about as well as can be expected; no matter what he does now his profit/sales are not going to change much, so, why not be dicitoral, it feels good. Over the years he has gotten used to making snap decision ( like blowing a$$holes out the door; I use to love that part...LOL), It is fun to be god so why not have fun, and the employees will respect you for backing them up when they point out creeps. It's fun to talk shop after closing, you wouldn't believe what is said about customer after hours. Employees become very close nit and they party hardy together, this can be a pit fall when it come to providing good service but what the hell you gotta keep up the moral.
#3>Teach is a burnout; it happens...LOL

Having said all this I'm sure in Teaches mind I am wrong to the max and I don't have a fricking clue...so it goes.

dogginda9
03-09-2005, 08:47 PM
I have tried to stay out of this one but...knowing something about the Food &Beverage, the Service business, and the Poolhall business I couldn't resist. Lets just say the poolhall business is really the F&Beverage business because in effect you can't crack the nut with just pool, it just ain't going to happen.
Teach makes good points about the business side of the fence. He may come across as a dicitoral know it all but he does so based on HIS experience trying to keep the doors open. This is a tough business with a very high failure rate. If your a hands on operator/owner the hours are brutal. You are in constant state of hiring, firing, training, and that is just the front end of the operation. The back end is scheduling, accounting, maintaining equiptment, cleaning the physical plant, and dealing with employees personal problems. If you can keep a lid on this type of business you just have to be good a crisis manager because that's what you do on a day to day basis. Even though Teach maybe a small operator, two units, he will probably never have the type of operation that can expand beyond his personal presents. It seems he is a mom & pop type operation and there sure is nothing wrong with that. Being the MAN of his plan everything depends on his seat of the pants decisions ( crisis management ). I maybe making some serious assumptions here but these assumptions are pretty standard for the business's where the owners footsteps are the best fertilizer for his business.
#1> I'll bet he has'nt taken a two week vacation in years; why, because he doesn't trust anyone with his baby. He is strung pretty tight...LOL
#2>Why is he such a hardnose? Knows his units are doing about as well as can be expected; no matter what he does now his profit/sales are not going to change much, so, why not be dicitoral, it feels good. Over the years he has gotten used to making snap decision ( like blowing a$$holes out the door; I use to love that part...LOL), It is fun to be god so why not have fun, and the employees will respect you for backing them up when they point out creeps. It's fun to talk shop after closing, you wouldn't believe what is said about customer after hours. Employees become very close nit and they party hardy together, this can be a pit fall when it come to providing good service but what the hell you gotta keep up the moral.
#3>Teach is a burnout; it happens...LOL

Having said all this I'm sure in Teaches mind I am wrong to the max and I don't have a fricking clue...so it goes.
Thanks for all the responses to my thread. I was looking for some differing ideas to my post. I want to add to my original thoughts. I think my original statement of $5 being fair was a little low. I used to be a small room owner so I have a working knowledge of the business. I'm also a pool player who loves the game. My post was not a shot at room owners or them making money. I know how hard a $10K investment would be to recoup, I just feel that if you are going to alienate people from attending the tournament, due to the cost of admission, why put it on at your room? It seems to defeat the purpose of having an event if Joe average fan can't afford to come in. $25-$30 is not a lot of money to some people, but it is to others. I'm curious how many of the regular "customers" at this room attended over the weekend. Had I been in town, I would have been one of the "dead money" participants in the tourney. It would have cost me less than half to get in the tournament than to watch every day. I spend a pretty good chunk of change throughout the year on pool so I feel I fit into the "player" as well as fan category and as such these are just my opinions. Thanks

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 08:58 PM
And the customers are allowed to take their business elsewhere, which is what many of em do. People will frequent a place that is satisfactory and that caters to their needs. If a business doesn't meet up to these needs, then the customer will make their feelings known with their pocketbooks.



Of course you believed that you were right about everything 15 years ago. Just like you believe you're right about everything now. You probably think you know everything now. Of course in another 15 years, you'll learn all the things you were wrong about now. That's life. Some learn the lessons harder than others. Some simply never learn em at all.


Of course leaders lead by example. The examples they set say much more about their character than any other aspect about them. You have demonstrated your character and class quite consistently, and most people recognize you as such.

How does the saying go.......the spectators cheer and boo and offer their praise and displeasure. They can tell you how and when to do it. But they'll never know the thrill of victory or the agony of defeat because THEY'VE NEVER BEEN IN THE ARENA.

So goes my friend flickit.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 09:06 PM
I have been to your place and thought it was a very nice room. I got
good service and overall had a great time.
After reading the posts here by you I am surprised that the place was run so well. It just sounds to me like you hate pool and pool players.

I agree with some pool players being cheap but at the same time I ahve been one and can see our point. This is something we do 200 times a year. Most pool players spend way too much of their income throughout the year on POOL. But its pretty addictive.
When we are in a pool room 5 days a week and spend 20 bucks a day that can add up. I think its easier for owner to see the group that comes one day per week or 10 days and spend 100 per person. Looks like more but its not.

I have managed a pool room and have run tournaments. I have had some experience but not as mich as you. IMO tournaments are run for the locals and for advertising and for promotion of the business. I think that if a room owner only looks at that particular weekend for breaking even or making money then he is looking at it wrong.
I have heard the "road player" arguement several time and my response would be how many times have you or any other rooms had an event just for locals. That would be great in my book. I dont care about a bunch of roadies
coming in. Why not bring in a couple of Pros for an exhibition and trick shooting? Make it about giving back to the players in your room.

Its pretty expensive to put on an event like the Viking finals so that is a different senario but $25 bucks is high. How many guys can spend their normal amount of pool dollars and then spend an additional 50-100 to watch a
tournament for one day. Make it more reasonable not free. I ahve no problem paying but I cant spend money there if its all going to entry.

Like I mentioned already, I have been to one of your places and it was nice.
I really liked it and do wish you all the luck in the world with the business.
I just cant see it as cut and dry as you can.

Thanks for the complements. From California and been in my room? What are the odds of that? Just happy you were treated well. I'd bet you'd fall in the good group even though you play.

What I find the posters here have a difficult time doing is separating my personality on this board from my personality in the store. Not extremely different. But much more visible on this board. When I first opened, I was the attraction. I could play a little. I gave lessons. I was the league operator. I set handicaps. I was there open to close. Over years that has changed to the room, it's atmosphere and my employees being the attraction. Very few customers deal with me today. There are some that I see regularly that I have a relationship with, but for the most part 80-90% of the customers I don't know. I'm there during the day (7 days a week) doing the books, inventory, ordering, banking, planning, advertising, meeting with insurance people, straightening out legal issues, cleaning etc etc. i check in a couple nights per week to make sure the lid is on and now and then spend the evening there.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 09:12 PM
I have tried to stay out of this one but...knowing something about the Food &Beverage, the Service business, and the Poolhall business I couldn't resist. Lets just say the poolhall business is really the F&Beverage business because in effect you can't crack the nut with just pool, it just ain't going to happen.
Teach makes good points about the business side of the fence. He may come across as a dicitoral know it all but he does so based on HIS experience trying to keep the doors open. This is a tough business with a very high failure rate. If your a hands on operator/owner the hours are brutal. You are in constant state of hiring, firing, training, and that is just the front end of the operation. The back end is scheduling, accounting, maintaining equiptment, cleaning the physical plant, and dealing with employees personal problems. If you can keep a lid on this type of business you just have to be good a crisis manager because that's what you do on a day to day basis. Even though Teach maybe a small operator, two units, he will probably never have the type of operation that can expand beyond his personal presents. It seems he is a mom & pop type operation and there sure is nothing wrong with that. Being the MAN of his plan everything depends on his seat of the pants decisions ( crisis management ). I maybe making some serious assumptions here but these assumptions are pretty standard for the business's where the owners footsteps are the best fertilizer for his business.
#1> I'll bet he has'nt taken a two week vacation in years; why, because he doesn't trust anyone with his baby. He is strung pretty tight...LOL
#2>Why is he such a hardnose? Knows his units are doing about as well as can be expected; no matter what he does now his profit/sales are not going to change much, so, why not be dicitoral, it feels good. Over the years he has gotten used to making snap decision ( like blowing a$$holes out the door; I use to love that part...LOL), It is fun to be god so why not have fun, and the employees will respect you for backing them up when they point out creeps. It's fun to talk shop after closing, you wouldn't believe what is said about customer after hours. Employees become very close nit and they party hardy together, this can be a pit fall when it come to providing good service but what the hell you gotta keep up the moral.
#3>Teach is a burnout; it happens...LOL

Having said all this I'm sure in Teaches mind I am wrong to the max and I don't have a fricking clue...so it goes.

Quite the opposite cheesemouse. You've hit the nail on the head. Only change I would make is I would amend the comment....."Teach IS a burnout" to "Teach suffers from burnout".

What you appear to have a clue on and what most posters don't is the effort and committment it takes to make the business survive. It's daily. It's all you've got. Some have already read this in a previous post but when your rent is $19,000 per month, and the payroll is $25,000 per month, and the electric is $50,000 per year etc etc etc. There really is little room for mistakes........like hosting a $3000 added tournament and not getting your money back, that many here like to call advertising.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 09:15 PM
I play pool, but I am not a 'player'. I think I have learned something from this spirited discussion. Hearing from the perspective of the room owner as to the real costs (opportunity) of running a tournament is helpful in understanding why he might choose to not have one or more likely, to decide not to have another one.

I've decided to appreciate more those local nightly tournaments, and especially the larger weekend tournaments that we occaisionally have in this area. My thanks to these local room operators and their staffs.

Often we don't appreciate what we have until it is gone. I wouldn't want that to be the case with these local tournaments. My participation amounts to 'dead money' as far as the purse is considered, but I do enjoy playing regardless of the outcome.

I guess I just like to play pool and wouldn't want to see any of those opportunities taken away because of something I have some control of. I'll pay my entry, buy some food and drink, tip as warranted, pay an admission if not competing and in general try to support the establishment providing me an outlet for my addiction to this game.

If nothing else, I hope this informations helps you make a committment to support your local pool room and realize that although the owner may be as calm as can be, he's fighting like crazy underneath to keep things moving in the right direction. And, the next time he holds a tournament, be sure you're the first to sign up.

vagabond
03-09-2005, 09:53 PM
[QUOTE=Teacherman]

Hollywood Billiards is super upscale and caters to the ballbangers for most of their income, however, poolplayers probably spend about $10,000

Wayne

Howdy ,
I am shooting to be there on 10th of April.cheers
vagabond

frankncali
03-09-2005, 11:39 PM
Actually I am not even from SoCal but rather Alabama. I used to travel quite a bit and was in O'Fallon for about 6 weeks. When traveling I used to go to rooms and look around trying to get ideas. I hope I am remembering right about your place. Its got raised areas with seating and 2 bars and the tables are on the lower level. If I remember right it was kind of V-shaped.

I know I have been to Teachers becuase I have it written down in my pool
book or places to play. When I was traveling I would write down names and locations of places so if I had to go back I would already know places to play.

I do believe its a tough buisness to run and has to be handled with a
handson approach. I hope to open a place here in SoCal but finacially have not been able to as of yet.
I believe in getting the league players involved in the business. Some people dont like leagues but they are staedy business and loyal.
While I dont agree with your stances on everything I find it hard to believe that a successful business person is so cut and dry with decisions. Something tells me thats only the first reaction and not the whole truth to Teacherman. My guess is that you rule the roost there at your business and make decisions quickly and assertively thus thats why the quick reactions here. I think that you also "THEN" put some consideration into other options
or answers to questions and problems.
This is a pretty good bunch of guys and gals on here and I have met a few
of them. The internet gets a little snappy from time to time. If I am ever
towards St Louis I will try to stop in and see about a free water.
frankncali








Thanks for the complements. From California and been in my room? What are the odds of that? Just happy you were treated well. I'd bet you'd fall in the good group even though you play.

What I find the posters here have a difficult time doing is separating my personality on this board from my personality in the store. Not extremely different. But much more visible on this board. When I first opened, I was the attraction. I could play a little. I gave lessons. I was the league operator. I set handicaps. I was there open to close. Over years that has changed to the room, it's atmosphere and my employees being the attraction. Very few customers deal with me today. There are some that I see regularly that I have a relationship with, but for the most part 80-90% of the customers I don't know. I'm there during the day (7 days a week) doing the books, inventory, ordering, banking, planning, advertising, meeting with insurance people, straightening out legal issues, cleaning etc etc. i check in a couple nights per week to make sure the lid is on and now and then spend the evening there.

frankncali
03-09-2005, 11:47 PM
Howdy ,
I am shooting to be there on 10th of April.cheers
vagabond


Its a really nice place. Its pricey to me but the location and the clients
warrant it. I like to play upstairs more than down but dont really know why.
I have seen more celebrities on the second floor rather than the first.
Use the Valet or rather be prepared to use the valet. Another suggestion is
to call for directions. Someone there will be able to get you there the easiest route.

Teacherman
03-09-2005, 11:48 PM
As always, you are 100% right on the money.

I already voted.

FLICKit
03-10-2005, 01:50 AM
How does the saying go.......the spectators cheer and boo and offer their praise and displeasure. They can tell you how and when to do it. But they'll never know the thrill of victory or the agony of defeat because THEY'VE NEVER BEEN IN THE ARENA.

So goes my friend flickit.

Just more BS crap from you. You've never been there. If you had any clue of what it takes to appeal to the masses then you would've done it. But you haven't, cuz you're clueless. You just sit back in your tiny lil corner, cuz nobody else wants any part of you. That's the way it is, and that's the way it'll always be. Your rantings are meaningless. Your actions say it all.... nothing.

Jack Flanagan
03-10-2005, 12:34 PM
Just more BS crap from you..... Your rantings are meaningless. Your actions say it all.... nothing.

we can only gather from 'Flick-it' THAT there are no mirrors in his place, otherwise he (Flick-it) would read and reflect on what he's spewing forth,,,MORE meaningless, BS rantings that say nothing !!!

MrLucky
03-10-2005, 01:00 PM
All I can say about this post and some of the responses is WOW! this is a tough house here! :eek:

cardiac kid
03-10-2005, 02:42 PM
Hi teacherman,

I would like your opinion on the following.

Last year I attended an event with multiple Pro and Amatuer events. During the event, one of the PRO PLAYERS, entered in one of the pro events, sat down next to me in the "VIP" area and started to watch another PRO event. One of the ticket sales people walked up to this guy and asked for $10.00 to watch this part of the event. The PRO calmly explained to this guy who he was. The ticket guy got loud and continued to ask for the money. My friend, the PRO, got up and left. What a thrill to be asked to pay more when you already paid $350 to enter the event. Got to make money right?

Look, I understand your view of players. Having been one for fifty years, I agree with your general assessment of the state of the game. I put my money where my mouth is and helped to add some money to a tournament in hopes of promoting our room regionally and getting my fellow players to practice more. I'll let you know in thirty days how it went. The room is planning on charging a modest fee ($10.00) to watch a days worth of pool, each day.

almer
03-10-2005, 06:51 PM
Hi teacherman,

I would like your opinion on the following.

Last year I attended an event with multiple Pro and Amatuer events. During the event, one of the PRO PLAYERS, entered in one of the pro events, sat down next to me in the "VIP" area and started to watch another PRO event. One of the ticket sales people walked up to this guy and asked for $10.00 to watch this part of the event. The PRO calmly explained to this guy who he was. The ticket guy got loud and continued to ask for the money. My friend, the PRO, got up and left. What a thrill to be asked to pay more when you already paid $350 to enter the event. Got to make money right?

Look, I understand your view of players. Having been one for fifty years, I agree with your general assessment of the state of the game. I put my money where my mouth is and helped to add some money to a tournament in hopes of promoting our room regionally and getting my fellow players to practice more. I'll let you know in thirty days how it went. The room is planning on charging a modest fee ($10.00) to watch a days worth of pool, each day.
So i guess everyone would agree this tournament in Calgary,Canada is a bargain,pro tournament with top pros.johnny,ralf,alex,locals like edwin montel,run by jim wysch ,tue wed thur $5.00 per day,fri $10.oo,sat finals$15.00.
,All in Canadian funds.The website is www.smlentertainment.com

hemicudas
03-10-2005, 08:54 PM
So i guess everyone would agree this tournament in Calgary,Canada is a bargain,pro tournament with top pros.johnny,ralf,alex,locals like edwin montel,run by jim wysch ,tue wed thur $5.00 per day,fri $10.oo,sat finals$15.00.
,All in Canadian funds.The website is www.smlentertainment.com

Yes it would, almer. Many of the top pros are going to be there, as you say. I believe the only point, Dogginda9, was making in his original post was that the $25 Sat. and $30 Sun. charge was excessive. I agree. Especially with only a very few top pros in the tournament. Instead of politely disagreeing and explaining his point, Teacherman, jumped on the guy with all 4 feet. Obviously, Teacherman runs a room. If he treated his patrons as he treated, Dogginda9, he would have none left. Justice would be that his patrons would all be pointed to this thread, where they could understand how unappreciated they are by, Teacherman. John Abruzzo, is a friend of mine. John, runs the room where the tournament was held. I personally would have paid the price and in private ask, John, why the increase. I am sure, John, would have explained his decision in a non-hostile manner, knowing that the question was not out of line in the least.

olgoat
03-11-2005, 08:01 AM
earl was there...........he's a WORLD CHAMPION for crying out loud..........the 25 was worth just seeing him play.

VAP

Actually, in this case, Earl might not be the best example :( This was my first live tournament and I went for 4 days straight and it got a little expensive. Started at $10 on Wed. Then up $5 per day till Sunday when it was $30. Friday and Saturday nights were pretty crowded. Very few folks on Sunday for the Final.

I don't know as John put up any money upfront but it must have cost him a lot in business, especially on Sunday when about 14 tables were inaccessible for only about 4 matches at a time.

Palace did a great job and John, the owner, struck me as a standup guy. interested in the game, the players and his customers. I only wish his place was closer to where I live, as I would be a regular there.

Tim

olgoat
03-11-2005, 08:10 AM
Don't confuse typical pool customer with typical customer. One has an attitude. The other has discretionary income. :D

Which would you prefer to do business with?

As part of the "Discretionary Income Crowd" (DIC? That doesn't sound good ;-) I enjoy having the "pool customers" around as these are often the guys that really know the game in a way that I will never have the time or dedication to know it. I think you need both and I don't patronize a place that only caters to one over the other.



Tim

Mike Templeton
03-11-2005, 09:20 AM
You SOB's are the cheapest ass customers on earth.......OR the whiniest bunch of nags. Either one is less than desirable.

As always, you are 100% right on the money.
So do you think that everyone is a Son of a ***** as well?

Mike

hemicudas
03-11-2005, 09:34 AM
So do you think that everyone is a Son of a ***** as well?

Mike


That had to be a rhetorical question, Mike. Of course he does.

Eric.
03-11-2005, 10:40 AM
You are probably one of those milions who goes to a baseball game, pays $150 for seats and food, and feels like they got a good deal.

I am..

* Snip *

..Otherwise, I would suggest that you quit boasting about how much money you are willing to spend like you have a lot of money. This only makes you look like the true idiot that you are.

Regards, WW


I can't believe I actually agree with something that WW said. What's next? Dogs and Cats sleeping together?


Eric >the world ends tomorrow

Tom In Cincy
03-11-2005, 10:49 AM
Hi teacherman,
The ticket guy got loud and continued to ask for the money. My friend, the PRO, got up and left. What a thrill to be asked to pay more when you already paid $350 to enter the event. Got to make money right?

Cardiac Kid (great meeting you last week)
This June Hard Times Billiards in Sacramento CA, is going to have a 6 day event (3 days of 1Pkt,$5000 added and 3 days of 9 Ball,$10,000 added)

Admission will be $5/day.

Hard Times has a separate tournament room, just for these events. Seating is approximately 300 (stadium style and some floor seats)

The owners have absolutely NO problem holding this annual event and also have weekly and monthly events with added money.

Hard Times invests approximately $35,000 a year in Added Money and running their tournaments for the pool players.

The value is the national reputation it recieves and the very loyal customer base that continues to patronize the establishment.

There is a nightly 'waiting' list every nite of the week. 33 tables, bar and grill serving pool players.

NO Leagues (that tie up tables) just lots of tournaments.

If you want to know more about the tournaments and payouts for the last 6 months, go to www.onthebreaknews.com and veiw the last 6 months of stories from Hard Times tournaments and the results. We document all our tournaments, all payouts from each.

I don't know of any other pool room that puts out monthly results from their tournaments in a public pool news paper.

Hope to see lots of AZBilliards forum members at the June Jamboree.

hemicudas
03-11-2005, 11:29 AM
Cardiac Kid (great meeting you last week)
This June Hard Times Billiards in Sacramento CA, is going to have a 6 day event (3 days of 1Pkt,$5000 added and 3 days of 9 Ball,$10,000 added)

Admission will be $5/day.

Hard Times has a separate tournament room, just for these events. Seating is approximately 300 (stadium style and some floor seats)

The owners have absolutely NO problem holding this annual event and also have weekly and monthly events with added money.

Hard Times invests approximately $35,000 a year in Added Money and running their tournaments for the pool players.

The value is the national reputation it recieves and the very loyal customer base that continues to patronize the establishment.

There is a nightly 'waiting' list every nite of the week. 33 tables, bar and grill serving pool players.

NO Leagues (that tie up tables) just lots of tournaments.

If you want to know more about the tournaments and payouts for the last 6 months, go to www.onthebreaknews.com and veiw the last 6 months of stories from Hard Times tournaments and the results. We document all our tournaments, all payouts from each.

I don't know of any other pool room that puts out monthly results from their tournaments in a public pool news paper.

Hope to see lots of AZBilliards forum members at the June Jamboree.


May I venture a guess and assume Hard Times is profitable too, Tom? Keep up the good work. It is a legendary room.

pete lafond
03-11-2005, 11:40 AM
May I venture a guess and assume Hard Times is profitable too, Tom? Keep up the good work. It is a legendary room.

I like very much what Hard Times is doing. I wish more rooms would promote billiards as they seem to. Good job and thank you Hard Times.

Tom In Cincy
03-11-2005, 11:54 AM
May I venture a guess and assume Hard Times is profitable too, Tom? Keep up the good work. It is a legendary room.

Very Profitable. 6 figures some months.

Players from all over northern California come for the Monthly One Pocket and 9 ball events.

Short list of great players that frequent Hard Times:

Billy Palmer, George Michaels, Tony Chohan, Amar Kang, Tony Annigoni, Chris MacDonald, Geraldo Jamito, John Henderson, "Bee" Davison, Jun Almoite and Ernesto Dominguez.

Tom In Cincy
03-11-2005, 12:03 PM
I like very much what Hard Times is doing. I wish more rooms would promote billiards as they seem to. Good job and thank you Hard Times.

Hard Times encourages its 'newbie' players with a regular weekly 'B' tournament.
This tournament is for the 'experience' and is also a learning exercise for rules and sportsmanship during competition. These players will eventually start playing in the Open weekly and Monthly events. It is a great path to become a tournament seasoned player. Hard Times strives to promote pool and the players with these events.

These very young guns get to enter a tournament for $5 with $75 added. For 32 players racing to 4 and limited to just 32 players, if you win two matches you get $10. 3 matches, $20, 4 matches $55 and top prize is $100.

It has become an 'honor' to earn the 'you are not allowed to play in this event anymore, because you are too good' and not a 'B' player anymore'

nfty9er
03-11-2005, 12:34 PM
Very Profitable. 6 figures some months.

Players from all over northern California come for the Monthly One Pocket and 9 ball events.

Short list of great players that frequent Hard Times:

Billy Palmer, George Michaels, Tony Chohan, Amar Kang, Tony Annigoni, Chris MacDonald, Geraldo Jamito, John Henderson, "Bee" Davison, Jun Almoite and Ernesto Dominguez.

And coming soon I guess is Jeff Gregory who has unfortunately moved from Santa Cruz to Lodi I believe. He is action.

Tom In Cincy
03-11-2005, 12:41 PM
And coming soon I guess is Jeff Gregory who has unfortunately moved from Santa Cruz to Lodi I believe. He is action.

I forgot to mention Jeff Gregory (last Dec04 USPPA Reno Champ), he did play in this month's Monthly events. My guess, he wasn't too happy with the tournament tables (cut 4 1/8 inch point to point for the corner pockets). But, I am sure he'll get it up to speed. Jeff is a very good player.

nfty9er
03-11-2005, 12:56 PM
I forgot to mention Jeff Gregory (last Dec04 USPPA Reno Champ), he did play in this month's Monthly events. My guess, he wasn't too happy with the tournament tables (cut 4 1/8 inch point to point for the corner pockets). But, I am sure he'll get it up to speed. Jeff is a very good player.

He played and practiced on my famous nbr 2 table all the time,which has tighter pockkets than that, especially one pocket so I do not think the small pockets were a problem. More likely lack of playing time recently due to move and his family obligations.

hemicudas
03-11-2005, 12:56 PM
I forgot to mention Jeff Gregory (last Dec04 USPPA Reno Champ), he did play in this month's Monthly events. My guess, he wasn't too happy with the tournament tables (cut 4 1/8 inch point to point for the corner pockets). But, I am sure he'll get it up to speed. Jeff is a very good player.


4-1/8"? Tom, you sure those aren't rounded corners? Damn, sounds like snooker pockets, LOL. Better stay down on those tables.

cardiac kid
03-11-2005, 01:03 PM
Hi 'Cudas,

I was there last week! I have never seen such incredibly well engineered tables! Ernesto has outdone himself. I got to meet Tom in Cincy. Ran into him again in Reno Friday night. Tom showed me the facilities. Described what the future may bring to Hardtimes. What incredible owners they have. This may be the best pool room in the country! I can't wait to go back. Thanks for the conversations Tom!!!!!!!!! :cool:

hemicudas
03-11-2005, 06:41 PM
Hi 'Cudas,

I was there last week! I have never seen such incredibly well engineered tables! Ernesto has outdone himself. I got to meet Tom in Cincy. Ran into him again in Reno Friday night. Tom showed me the facilities. Described what the future may bring to Hardtimes. What incredible owners they have. This may be the best pool room in the country! I can't wait to go back. Thanks for the conversations Tom!!!!!!!!! :cool:

I'm sure you are right, Kid. It already has that reputation. Let me ask, Tom. Do you think a room done the same way in say, the St. Louis area, that catered to the player, had weekly and monthly tournaments in the amounts you speak of and charged a very reasonable fee to the public to view these tournaments would have a chance of doing well? I'm sure, like you say, the owner/s would have to be special people and understand how to treat their customers but could it be a success?

Tom In Cincy
03-11-2005, 07:34 PM
I'm sure you are right, Kid. It already has that reputation. Let me ask, Tom. Do you think a room done the same way in say, the St. Louis area, that catered to the player, had weekly and monthly tournaments in the amounts you speak of and charged a very reasonable fee to the public to view these tournaments would have a chance of doing well? I'm sure, like you say, the owner/s would have to be special people and understand how to treat their customers but could it be a success?

Hemicudas,

I'm not all that familiar with the St. Louis pool scene.

But, with that being said, a room done the same way would be sucessful anywhere.

If there aren't any REAL pool players in a pool hall, they might as well call it a "Recreation Center" for kids and young adults. Foosball, ping pong, all types of video games plus some pool tables.