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I'mdoingit
03-13-2005, 09:36 PM
I know at the end of each rail there is a faceing.... so lets just say i leave it on and add 2 more faceing to that one... and I do this to every rail ... so now do I have a double shim or triple shim table? THanks all

Hooked
03-13-2005, 10:04 PM
I call that double shimmed since you need one facing to protect the rails. A single facing is not optional, IMO.

However, just adding facings is not the correct way to shim. If you just add more, the pocket will stop accepting well hit balls. You need to change the "pocket geometry" as the pocket gets tighter. This means the mouth end of the shim needs to be thicker than the throat.

pete lafond
03-13-2005, 10:11 PM
I call that double shimmed since you need one facing to protect the rails. Its not optional IMO.

However, just adding facings is not the correct way to shim. If you just add more, the pocket will stop accepting well hit balls. You need to change the "pocket geometry" as the pocket gets tighter. This means the mouth side of the shim needs to be thicker than the throat.

Great point. It is almost like the slate opening getting pushed back. You can alway tell tables that were not shimmed correctly when you have a lot of deep hangers. Also watch the tips, tits, to make sure they are uniform. This can cause balls that only slightly touch the rail near the pocket to be rejected. I do not know a lot about table maintenance, only errors that I have seen and were explained to me.

Troy
03-14-2005, 05:26 PM
I partially disagree.....
Count the number of shims on each rail end. That's how to discuss the tightness of the table. Basic tables are single shimmed which yield about 5" corner pockets. Adding another shim will take about 1/4" off since each shim is about 1/8" thick and there are two per pocket (one on each rail end).

A double shimmed table is acceptable (that's TWO shims on each rail end). However, for the equivalent to triple shims (about 4.5" corner pockets), the rails should be lengthened to correct the geometry.

Troy
I call that double shimmed since you need one facing to protect the rails. A single facing is not optional, IMO.

However, just adding facings is not the correct way to shim. If you just add more, the pocket will stop accepting well hit balls. You need to change the "pocket geometry" as the pocket gets tighter. This means the mouth end of the shim needs to be thicker than the throat.

cuejoey
03-14-2005, 06:36 PM
[QUOTE=I'mdoingit]I know at the end of each rail there is a faceing.... so lets just say i leave it on and add 2 more faceing to that one... and I do this to every rail ... so now do I have a double shim or triple shim table? THanks all[/QUOTE instead of all the work in shimming might i recommend a product called " Practice Pro pocket reducers" www.poolndarts.com item #PS30..good luck

DeadAim
03-15-2005, 05:44 AM
Well,

Here’s how I look at it.

A table comes from the factory in STOCK condition, just like a car.

Let’s say our table has 5” openings from the factory, even though it has facings it is considered shimless.

Single shimmed would reduce this opening to 4 ¾”.

Double shimmed would reduce this opening to 4 ½”, this is my table which I bought from a person with over 40 years experience in these matters.

Triple shimmed would reduce this opening to 4 ¼”, the above persons table.

Depending on the type table you have, you can SLIGHTLY reduce the pocket openings by loosening the rail bolts then loosening the bolts that hold the rails to the pockets and pushing each rail inward VERY LITTLE. Be careful on some tables when doing this because the rail bolts MAY catch the slate to much; you will be able to get the bolts in but they WILL NOT come out. Use a square tool to make sure the rails are running squarely from corner to corner as you bolt the rails to the pockets. This will only change the opening by about 1/8 to ¼’, MAYBE.

If you wanted just a little less pocket opening, this may be a better solution then doing a shim job; if your table is constructed to allow this.

REMEMBER, shimmed tables are very difficult and frustrating to play on if you are not about at least a level 5 player; let’s say Efron is a 10, Bustamente a 9-9 ½ , Hernandez an 8-8 ½ , etc. A level 5 player may be considered about an A or A + amateur.

The above info has been amassed via conversations with various players/billiard table mechanics that know VASTLY more than I do about the game.

So, this is their opinions and my opinions; whether it is fact or not is “up in the air”.

JR

mjantti
03-15-2005, 06:34 AM
Annoying, we have shimmed pockets in our Brunswick tables at the pool club, but the shims aren't aligned with the rail "nose". The shim edges are slightly inside the pocket making the rail "nose" curve towards the pocket where the shims are located. This makes it very difficult to play bank shots which lie near the pocket.

Do you think the shims should be aligned with the rail nose so that you could play accurate bank shot from the shim just outside the pocket point ?

I hope I did make sense here with my explanation... :)

Troy
03-15-2005, 08:16 AM
The shims should be installed so they are an extension of the rail rubber, ie, even with the rail rubber.

Troy
=Annoying, we have shimmed pockets in our Brunswick tables at the pool club, but the shims aren't aligned with the rail "nose". The shim edges are slightly inside the pocket making the rail "nose" curve towards the pocket where the shims are located. This makes it very difficult to play bank shots which lie near the pocket.

Do you think the shims should be aligned with the rail nose so that you could play accurate bank shot from the shim just outside the pocket point ?

I hope I did make sense here with my explanation... :)

mjantti
03-15-2005, 08:39 AM
The shims should be installed so they are an extension of the rail rubber, ie, even with the rail rubber.

Troy
=

Thanks Troy. I'll be sure to give some feedback about correct shim placement when they're installing new rail cloths next time.

JoeyInCali
03-15-2005, 09:21 AM
Ernesto style. :-)

pete lafond
03-15-2005, 09:26 AM
Ernesto style. :-)

Looks like a great job. I am impressed. I noticed the pocket face angle was changed to insure that balls hit inside the pocket do not spit out easily.

Troy
03-15-2005, 08:37 PM
Looks like slightly less than 4.5" corners to my eye... :)
Also looks like the rails have been extended with wood backing the rails also added.
There's a table mechanic in NorCal who does the same type job as Ernesto. They ain't chesp though.

Troy
Ernesto style. :-)

Tom In Cincy
03-15-2005, 09:36 PM
Looks like slightly less than 4.5" corners to my eye... :)
Also looks like the rails have been extended with wood backing the rails also added.
There's a table mechanic in NorCal who does the same type job as Ernesto. They ain't chesp though.

Troy

Look's like 4 1/2" to me, both balls are past the corner edges and look like they are partially in the throat.

Ernesto did the tournament room tables at Hard Times in Sacramento that measure 4 1/8th inch point to point. No shims. He cut the rail cushions to length and measured the angles.

Mike Templeton
03-16-2005, 06:04 AM
Ernesto style. :-)
Nice photo, Joey

Williebetmore
03-16-2005, 06:14 AM
Hey, no one is answering cuejoey. I have the same question. I have a GCIV with one EXTRA shim (in addition to the normal pocket facing) - does that mean it is double shimmed or single shimmed? I have no idea what to call it.

Troy
03-16-2005, 08:11 AM
It's DOUBLE SHIMMED !!!

Hey, no one is answering cuejoey. I have the same question. I have a GCIV with one EXTRA shim (in addition to the normal pocket facing) - does that mean it is double shimmed or single shimmed? I have no idea what to call it.

Williebetmore
03-16-2005, 11:05 AM
It's DOUBLE SHIMMED !!!

Troy,
Many thanks. Of course I have been calling it single-shimmed for about a year now, I'm sure my friends will think I'm touched in the head when I change nomenclature (oh wait, they think that already - no problem).

Hooked
03-16-2005, 12:24 PM
It's DOUBLE SHIMMED !!!

I disagree. First off, they are not shims, they are pocket facings.

Second, like I said earlier, one facing is required to protect the rail. So, by your definition, ALL tables are single shimmed, which does not sound right. That implies that no pocket facings are the standard table.

You can even see Brunswick table specifications, for pockets openings, require the facing to meet the spec. With the facing removed, the pocket is too big.

Shimming implies the table was tightened more than the manufacturer intended and one facing was intended for protection.

Anyways, one facing is a non shimmed table. Adding one additional facing would be the first layer in shimming so, two facings is a single shimmed table, IMO :)


BTW - I had a Gold Crown with no facings on it. The cornor pocket rails were butchered :( The wood was all splintered and the cushions were coming off from all the high velocity impacts :) I wanted to strangle the person who removed the facings when I saw the damage!

ashmouth
03-16-2005, 12:51 PM
Looks like slightly less than 4.5" corners to my eye... :)
Also looks like the rails have been extended with wood backing the rails also added.
There's a table mechanic in NorCal who does the same type job as Ernesto. They ain't chesp though.

Troy

Troy,

Can you tell me the NorCal mechanic you're talking about? Also, how much do you think it would cost to do this type of work?

Thanks,
Brian

Troy
03-16-2005, 08:07 PM
His name is John Wright, aka Scarecrow. He lives in Redwood City but covers the Bay area. I can't/won't quote a price. If you want his number send me a PM.

Troy
Troy,

Can you tell me the NorCal mechanic you're talking about? Also, how much do you think it would cost to do this type of work?

Thanks,
Brian

Troy
03-16-2005, 08:16 PM
You must get your knowledge from a much different table mechanic.
If assembled correctly, all tables are single shimmed with one facing on the end of each rail rubber. Adding a second shim/facing is simply called a double shim. It really ain't complicated -- just count the number of shims/facings.

Troy
I disagree. First off, they are not shims, they are pocket facings.

Second, like I said earlier, one facing is required to protect the rail. So, by your definition, ALL tables are single shimmed, which does not sound right. That implies that no pocket facings are the standard table.

You can even see Brunswick table specifications, for pockets openings, require the facing to meet the spec. With the facing removed, the pocket is too big.

Shimming implies the table was tightened more than the manufacturer intended and one facing was intended for protection.

Anyways, one facing is a non shimmed table. Adding one additional facing would be the first layer in shimming so, two facings is a single shimmed table, IMO :)


BTW - I had a Gold Crown with no facings on it. The cornor pocket rails were butchered :( The wood was all splintered and the cushions were coming off from all the high velocity impacts :) I wanted to strangle the person who removed the facings when I saw the damage!

mechanic/player
03-16-2005, 08:27 PM
troy is correct,a table comes with one shim already installed,if you were to add another one then you have a double shimmed pocket,add another and you have a tripple shimmed pocket.

Troy
03-16-2005, 08:58 PM
Thanks -- I knew I wasn't too crazy..... :)

Troy
troy is correct,a table comes with one shim already installed,if you were to add another one then you have a double shimmed pocket,add another and you have a tripple shimmed pocket.

mechanic/player
03-16-2005, 09:59 PM
ashmouth,i can give you a ballpark figure if you like,as if you called me from my yellow page ad.of course it may differ from mechanics in your area .what exactly do you want done to your table? cloth type? new cushions? brand specific?pocket size?does your table play well now or does it need work to play well as it is?

Black-Balled
03-17-2005, 06:06 AM
ashmouth,i can give you a ballpark figure if you like,as if you called me from my yellow page ad.of course it may differ from mechanics in your area .what exactly do you want done to your table? cloth type? new cushions? brand specific?pocket size?does your table play well now or does it need work to play well as it is?

I sent you a PM- Please PM back

ashmouth
03-17-2005, 04:24 PM
ashmouth,i can give you a ballpark figure if you like,as if you called me from my yellow page ad.of course it may differ from mechanics in your area .what exactly do you want done to your table? cloth type? new cushions? brand specific?pocket size?does your table play well now or does it need work to play well as it is?


The table is a used ball return GC III in pretty good shape. I'd need someone to knock it down, move it, set it up, recover it with simonis 760, new artemis cushions cut to length to get 4 1/4 inch corner pockets point-to-point without the use of extra shims.

ashmouth
03-17-2005, 04:27 PM
His name is John Wright, aka Scarecrow. He lives in Redwood City but covers the Bay area. I can't/won't quote a price. If you want his number send me a PM.

Troy

Thanks for the info Troy, I got his number from the owner of Broken Rack.

mechanic/player
03-17-2005, 11:00 PM
350$ for a local move,200$ cloth,175$ artemis cushions plus installation(price can vary),tighten pockets to 4 1/4 50$ , ballparkprice is 800$-1000$,could be a lil more tho.