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LastTwo
04-03-2005, 11:14 PM
I think that all the pro players have powerful strokes, but there are some who excel above the rest. I heard Larry Nevel is one of the best when it comes to this. Rodney Morris has a pretty powerful stroke too. Anyone else?

frankncali
04-03-2005, 11:18 PM
I think that all the pro players have powerful strokes, but there are some who excel above the rest. I heard Larry Nevel is one of the best when it comes to this. Rodney Morris has a pretty powerful stroke too. Anyone else?


Nevel is up there. Mike Massey IMO has the most powerful stroke.

Nevel and Massey might be even or damn close.

Bob Jewett
04-03-2005, 11:25 PM
Nevel is up there. Mike Massey IMO has the most powerful stroke.

Nevel and Massey might be even or damn close.
So what would be a good test? I think the break shot isn't any good because it's hard to judge control, and you don't want to spin the ball much. Table length draw for maximum distance? Nevel is reported to shoot some insane draw shots.

woody_968
04-03-2005, 11:49 PM
So what would be a good test? I think the break shot isn't any good because it's hard to judge control, and you don't want to spin the ball much. Table length draw for maximum distance? Nevel is reported to shoot some insane draw shots.

The Miz had a pretty powerfull stroke as well. The way he used to make the cueball claw its way through a straight pool rack was pretty impressive.

Celtic
04-04-2005, 12:09 AM
Earl the Pearl.

APA9
04-04-2005, 12:37 AM
Earl the Pearl.

Yeah, what he said!

recoveryjones
04-04-2005, 12:45 AM
Earl the Pearl.

I don't know if Earl can draw as powerfully as Nevel or Massey,however,for an overall power game,he's certainly got one. RJ

sjm
04-04-2005, 01:21 AM
Unless specialist Mike Massey is considered, I think Strickland is a clear choice here.

Playsome
04-04-2005, 01:39 AM
Davenport, Kim Davenport....................Marc Swisher

PoolBum
04-04-2005, 03:09 AM
The most powerful stroke I've ever seen is that of Semih Sayginer (sp?), the 3-C player. The Accu-Stats tape of his exhibition is simply incredible.

sjm
04-04-2005, 04:16 AM
The most powerful stroke I've ever seen is that of Semih Sayginer (sp?), the 3-C player. The Accu-Stats tape of his exhibition is simply incredible.

Different equipment. Stiffer cue with shorter ferrule. Heated table. Different size balls. Different game. Unless you've seen Sayginer play pool, I wonder how you compared him to the pool players mentioned in this thread.

There's little doubt that Sayginer has the best stroke in three cushion. I've seen him live on three different occasions, and on two of those occasions, he did an exhibition, one of them without a cue (just his hands). The guy is awesome, and is a great showman, too.

So, I'll change my answer to:

Pocket billiards: Earl Strickland
3-cushion: Semih Sayginer

... fully understanding there's no way to compare the two.

predator
04-04-2005, 04:30 AM
Sayginer and Massey shots are most impressive. Artistic pool players would have to have advantage over "normal" players at power strokes because they practice those very often...perhaps most of the time?

As far as producing power strokes in regular high pressure tournament matches...that's something entirely different. For the best most powerful draw shot under pressure, I'd vote for Jimmy White. Drawing table length while CD and OB are more than 10ft apart is something special.

bruin70
04-04-2005, 04:38 AM
Different equipment. Stiffer cue with shorter ferrule. Heated table. Different size balls. Different game. Unless you've seen Sayginer play pool, I wonder how you compared him to the pool players mentioned in this thread.

There's little doubt that Sayginer has the best stroke in three cushion. I've seen him live on three different occasions, and on two of those occasions, he did an exhibition, one of them without a cue (just his hands). The guy is awesome, and is a great showman, too.

So, I'll change my answer to:

Pocket billiards: Earl Strickland
3-cushion: Semih Sayginer

... fully understanding there's no way to compare the two.


all true,,,

but 3 cushion players simply KNOW the cb better than pool players. armed with an array of bridges and strokes meant to deliver any english they please where the pool player would probably try to figure things out with just their one pool bridge/stroke, the 3C player would come up with solutions only efren might have an inkling about,,,,,imo. and they would play with the same cue they use for 3C.

but anyway, this thread was meant for only pool players. but i had to throw my 2 cents in :):)

MrLucky
04-04-2005, 05:01 AM
would not Johnny Archer be in this esteem group? ;)

AceHigh
04-04-2005, 05:13 AM
Sayginer and Massey shots are most impressive. Artistic pool players would have to have advantage over "normal" players at power strokes because they practice those very often...perhaps most of the time?

As far as producing power strokes in regular high pressure tournament matches...that's something entirely different. For the best most powerful draw shot under pressure, I'd vote for Jimmy White. Drawing table length while CD and OB are more than 10ft apart is something special.


You don't need a powerful stroke to draw the cueball when the object ball is 10ft away. You just need a fluid well developed stroke. It took me awhile, but I soon realized that I can draw the cueball from anywhere as long as my grip is loose, I follow through all the way, and I snap my wrist a little.

predator
04-04-2005, 06:18 AM
You don't need a powerful stroke to draw the cueball when the object ball is 10ft away. You just need a fluid well developed stroke. It took me awhile, but I soon realized that I can draw the cueball from anywhere as long as my grip is loose, I follow through all the way, and I snap my wrist a little.

Well, it's still was a powerstroke even if it didn't have the speed of a break stroke. You need a certain speed on the cueball, otherwise the friction will stop the backspin very soon. 10ft is a lot of distance and combined with a slower napped cloth...well, let's just say that Jimmy used much more than pocket speed but it looked effortless.

Bobby
04-04-2005, 07:11 AM
I think that all the pro players have powerful strokes, but there are some who excel above the rest. I heard Larry Nevel is one of the best when it comes to this. Rodney Morris has a pretty powerful stroke too. Anyone else?


Earl Strickland.

Kim Davenport would be my second pick.

AceHigh
04-04-2005, 07:24 AM
this girl I used to date had a powerful stroke. felt really good too.

Celtic
04-04-2005, 08:19 AM
would not Johnny Archer be in this esteem group? ;)

As far as "powerful" stroke, he would not even come close to the top of my list. The guy is a phenomenal player but he does not have a powerful stroke like the players we are talking about.

Williebetmore
04-04-2005, 08:31 AM
Mike Massey or George Breedlove. (As long as we're talking about power with some degree of accuracy, otherwise any big guy in a bar is probably just as powerful)

CaptainJR
04-04-2005, 08:47 AM
So what would be a good test? I think the break shot isn't any good because it's hard to judge control, and you don't want to spin the ball much. Table length draw for maximum distance? Nevel is reported to shoot some insane draw shots.


What would be a good test? I'm not sure that a follow shot wouldn't be a better test that a draw shot. I know I read in a thread on here that it has been proven when you shoot a follow shot, you can't get the cue ball to be spinning more than it is traveling until it hits the object ball. I know it was worded better than that when I read it here. That sounds about as clear as mud. Does anyone know what I'm talking about.

Anyway it just seems to me that because of this, a power stoke would be better tested by a follow shot. I know that if I have to get a big draw I can (no I don't mean more than Massey, just big for me). Sometimes I even get more than I want. LOL But If I need a lot of follow, I have to really concentrate on it and make sure the stoke has lots of follow through.

StraightPoolIU
04-04-2005, 08:48 AM
As far as artistic pool specialists go you have to go with Massey, but for guys that have powerful strokes and compete regularly in regular tournaments the stories I've heard about Breedlove are incredible.

ScottR
04-04-2005, 09:15 AM
I seem to remember that Massey has some un-Godly draw shot (7 rails, more??? :confused: ) in his exhibition routine back in the early 80's. I saw some pros with monster strokes who couldn't get 2/3 of that distance.

BTW, I don't mean up and down the table 7 times.

cueman
04-04-2005, 09:55 AM
I have not seen all the younger players play but I did used to set up my pro shop and repair cues at professional events in the late 80's and early 90's. At that time most all of the pros would have voted for Mike Massey as having the most powerful stroke. At that time Earl Strickland would have got my vote for second and Scotty Townsend would have got the vote for third. Those that don't think Johhny Archers stroke is strong did not watch him play much back when the cloth was slow. I would definitely have put him in the top ten then. The top players have found that to win on fast cloth they have to play the patterns and finesse better, instead of being able to power their way through racks. It is not that they don't have powerful strokes, it is just they don't need them as often and with the tighter pockets they chance showing it less often.
Chris
www.internationalcuemakers.com

Williebetmore
04-04-2005, 10:36 AM
The top players have found that to win on fast cloth they have to play the patterns and finesse better, instead of being able to power their way through racks. It is not that they don't have powerful strokes, it is just they don't need them as often and with the tighter pockets they chance showing it less often.
Chris
www.internationalcuemakers.com

Cueman,
You make an awfully good point. At DCC this year I was shocked by how few really great power shots I saw; very few players in this short race format on medium tight tables were even attempting the "flamethrower" type power shots. The overall type of play seemed VERY conservative. I definitely saw more power pool in the gambling matches (races ahead rather than short races) than during the tournament. The 2 big exceptions were Efren and George Breedlove. I had heard that Rodney Morris also would play some wide open pool, but he was basically sitting in his chair the 2 matches I saw (Ahhh, the beauty of short race 9-ball).

Fred Agnir
04-04-2005, 11:24 AM
In class, Charlie Williams drew a ball bank the length of the table (the 2 balls were at opposite end of the table) and then it rebounded and went almost another full table length.

There is absolutely no one who can draw the ball this far that I know of.

Larry Nevel and Corey Deuel were hitting this shot during the US Open 2003 just for fun, going all the way back up the table and down. Nevel was consistently able to draw over two table lengths:


Power Draw Post (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=ccb&Number=127943&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1)

Fred

Bob Jewett
04-04-2005, 11:41 AM
... I read in a thread on here that it has been proven when you shoot a follow shot, you can't get the cue ball to be spinning more than it is traveling until it hits the object ball. I know it was worded better than that when I read it here. That sounds about as clear as mud. Does anyone know what I'm talking about.... .
This is probably referring to a chapter in Byrne's "Advanced Technique" book which has a demo that it is very difficult to get more top spin on a cue ball than the spin it has when rolling smoothly. It is barely possible to get "excess" top spin on the cue ball, and it does make the cue ball accelerate, but the final speed when the ball is rolling smoothly will actually be less than if you cue the ball lower. Hitting the ball so far off center puts less total energy into the ball.

TATE
04-04-2005, 12:04 PM
I think that all the pro players have powerful strokes, but there are some who excel above the rest. I heard Larry Nevel is one of the best when it comes to this. Rodney Morris has a pretty powerful stroke too. Anyone else?

To me, hitting the ball hard and drawing it a mile is not what defines a "powerful stroke". In my mind, what defines a powerful stroke is the ability a player has to obtain the combination of spin and speed necessary to do things other players won't even attempt, while still maintaining control and shot accuracy.

I've been pretty impressed with Bustamante's ability to apply extreme side spin while maintaining 100% control. His power game is amazing, developed in the tough conditions playing in the Phillipines (bad equipment, nappy cloth, humidity). Corey Deuel also can do a lot of things, like jacked up draw shots while maintaing complete control. Nils Feijen has a tremendous stroke. I also think Earl has power to burn. He used it a lot more when he was younger, now he's a little more inclined to safe.

Chris

Jimmy M.
04-04-2005, 12:26 PM
Earl Strickland.

PoolBum
04-04-2005, 12:35 PM
Different equipment. Stiffer cue with shorter ferrule. Heated table. Different size balls. Different game. Unless you've seen Sayginer play pool, I wonder how you compared him to the pool players mentioned in this thread.

There's little doubt that Sayginer has the best stroke in three cushion. I've seen him live on three different occasions, and on two of those occasions, he did an exhibition, one of them without a cue (just his hands). The guy is awesome, and is a great showman, too.

So, I'll change my answer to:

Pocket billiards: Earl Strickland
3-cushion: Semih Sayginer

... fully understanding there's no way to compare the two.

This is a bit of a nit to pick, but...the two are comparable, in that both involve cues, and balls, and strokes. Even apples and oranges are comparable--they're both fruits, they have similar sizes and shapes, etc. Still, there are obvious differences, which I think is your point. I've never seen Sayginer play pool, but I wouldn't be surprised if his pool stroke is not as developed as his 3-C stroke. I would be surprised if he were unable to develop it to be impressive though.

Chicken_Blood
04-04-2005, 02:16 PM
If you are just talking powerful strokes Then I think its Mike Massey.

lewdo26
04-04-2005, 06:29 PM
Hard to believe Bustamante's name hasn't surfaced. And I'm not talking about his break, either. My choice would be between Earl and Larry Nevel, although I find Larry's stroke more aesthetic. But I'll tell you who's not far behind: Charlie Bryant. As other's have said, George Breedlove's stroke is also pretty damn intimidating.

vapoolplayer
04-04-2005, 07:28 PM
Hard to believe Bustamante's name hasn't surfaced. And I'm not talking about his break, either. My choice would be between Earl and Larry Nevel, although I find Larry's stroke more aesthetic. But I'll tell you who's not far behind: Charlie Bryant. As other's have said, George Breedlove's stroke is also pretty damn intimidating.

busta's name has been mentioned.........on page two i think.

what about efren? haven't heard much about him here. i know it doesn't look like much when he makes some of his shots, but some of the draw shots i've seen him play aren't two shabby.

VAP

Jack Madden
04-04-2005, 08:17 PM
David Howard

David Howard
from my pictures taken in the 70's
Jack Madden
www.johnmaddencues.com

mastercueartist
04-04-2005, 10:21 PM
I think that all the pro players have powerful strokes, but there are some who excel above the rest. I heard Larry Nevel is one of the best when it comes to this. Rodney Morris has a pretty powerful stroke too. Anyone else?

I've shot a couple of them a time or 2.This is gonna sound a little off your direction but Mika shut me down bad one night and I can still feel the floor vibrate from the snap. That little man can rock and roll when he is loose.I would have to say thats the best clean power stroke I have seen in my entire life from the living. Never seen him do it again in tourn play on the tv but in live action he has a real clean snap when he needs it.

SCCues
04-05-2005, 06:10 AM
Earl Strickland and Larry Nevel!!!!!

SCCues

cueaddicts
04-05-2005, 10:35 AM
No question on the most powerful stroke....the "Tennessee Tarzan"......Mike Massey !!!!

Sean

BazookaJoe
04-05-2005, 11:48 AM
http://www.onthebreaknews.com/Sarge3.htm

See Mike's power draw shot.
it's a little over half way down.

matthew staton
05-23-2005, 08:29 AM
I think that all the pro players have powerful strokes, but there are some who excel above the rest. I heard Larry Nevel is one of the best when it comes to this. Rodney Morris has a pretty powerful stroke too. Anyone else?


Larry nevel fan from the same pool hall as him I think he has the best stroke in the world have seen him draw the ball 12 rails before no joke...

matthew staton
05-23-2005, 08:32 AM
this girl I used to date had a powerful stroke. felt really good too.


ace I agree boy she could stroke it.... ;)

Voodoo Daddy
05-23-2005, 09:43 AM
Larry nevel fan from the same pool hall as him I think he has the best stroke in the world have seen him draw the ball 12 rails before no joke...

Larry Nevel, IMO has one of the best power strokes I ever saw. Massey's power is timeless, so is Kim Davenport's. Samir, the 3C guy has controlled power as did Ceulemans...CJ Wiley had a helluva power stroke too.

matthew staton
05-23-2005, 12:18 PM
I've shot a couple of them a time or 2.This is gonna sound a little off your direction but Mika shut me down bad one night and I can still feel the floor vibrate from the snap. That little man can rock and roll when he is loose.I would have to say thats the best clean power stroke I have seen in my entire life from the living. Never seen him do it again in tourn play on the tv but in live action he has a real clean snap when he needs it.

so who broke there parott cue..

APA9
05-23-2005, 03:31 PM
Okay, all you have to do is look in Ripley's Believe it or Not, or is it The Guinesses Book of World Records, but who has gone around the table hitting more rails than anyone on earth?

FL

Case closed LOL.

This is what we call a "nut-swinger", boys and girls.

cornerstone
05-23-2005, 04:58 PM
I think that all the pro players have powerful strokes, but there are some who excel above the rest. I heard Larry Nevel is one of the best when it comes to this. Rodney Morris has a pretty powerful stroke too. Anyone else?
no question mike masse!

predator
05-24-2005, 12:52 AM
Larry Nevel and Corey Deuel were hitting this shot during the US Open 2003 just for fun, going all the way back up the table and down. Nevel was consistently able to draw over two table lengths:


Power Draw Post (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=ccb&Number=127943&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1)

Fred

Amazing. Jacked up draw shot is the most difficult to control no doubt.

Snapshot9
05-24-2005, 08:25 AM
Here's a little test for your stroke:

On a 9 foot table, put a ball just above the middle diamond on the left
long rail. Put the cue even with middle diamond at the other end somewhere
between the headspot and the right long rail.

Shoot the object ball in the corner down the rail, and draw your cueball
across the table to the diagonal long rail section, and around 3 rails to
make a second object ball sitting in front of the pocket at the same end,
but the adjacent corner pocket to where you shot the first object ball.

That shot will tell you if you have a powerful stroke or not. We have 1 young guy in Wichita that can do it 9 out of 10 times, he has Cory Deuel type talent,
but does not apply himself seriously to the sport. His name is Jeremy
Vulgamore, and he has one of the most powerful strokes I have ever
seen in 43 years of playing and watching. I have watched him bank a
ball long rail from little more than half way down table, and draw the cue
2 table lengths without missing the shot.

Drawing off jacked up shots is difficult, and controlling and drawing
the cue off of jump shots is difficult. One of the best for jumping and drawing the cueball is a guy named Dave Hendricks from Wichita, but down in Tulsa
or Oklahoma City now.

bud green
05-24-2005, 08:39 AM
The twelve rail "draw" shot probably isn't a draw shot off a ball, it probably means that he hit the first rail with some draw so it had topspin when it rebounded off the rail.

My friend Lance did 11 rails on a billiard table doing this when he was 17- Robert Byrne mentioned it in a BD article. He also can do the two table length draw shot. This is the shot that seems to show who really has a monster stroke.

FL did his shot (on his video,anyway) by having the ball bounce off the cushions in the air three times- neat shot but not a true stroke shot. He does have a great draw but what other pool players go out of their way to get Guiness recognition.

I refuse to believe anyone can consistently stroke a ball as powerfully as Mike Massey/Semih Sayginer until I see it myself. Massey draws a table length on jump shots...lucky he doesn't slap the rest of us down and call us a bunch of sorry-ass wimps

drivermaker
05-24-2005, 09:25 AM
The funniest thing was reading all of the CCBers trying to discredit the shot. If you want to read some really funny things, go find the thread over there. They actually believed (since they hated FL so much) that the Fast One was trying to trick the whole world, so they used silicone spray, put the sh*t on the cloth (can you imagine :D ?), etc. Then the thread died when someone mentioned that Larry made the cueball skip parts of the table for less friction by jumping off the rails and that they saw him do the shot at some school in Georgia. Nothing like seeing a bunch of arrogant a**hol*s eating crow!


I don't think anyone can do what Mike Massey can do on the table day in and day out in front of an audience in competition or otherwise.

However....after seeing FL's video I am TOTALLY impressed with what he can do on the table. Actually, he did a few things that made my jaw drop. The hacks who never have anything good to say about what he can do or what he's done are EXACTLY the ones he refers to when he says, "they can't even run 3 friggin' balls"! And THAT'S the truth!!

thecyclone@btin
05-24-2005, 09:39 AM
try this one place the cue ball in the jaws of corner pocket {1.}. put object ball in oposite, diagonal jaws pocket{2}, then pot object ball in{2}and draw cue ball in off into {1} longest shot on the table therefore hardest drawshot a good test of cue power and perssicion!

drivermaker
05-24-2005, 09:48 AM
So...What kind of stroke would you use for this shot???


The other question is...how far away do you place the CB from the first struck OB?

thecyclone@btin
05-24-2005, 09:50 AM
the cb is as i said in the jaws of opposite pocket! i play it like a break shot myself.

vapoolplayer
05-24-2005, 09:51 AM
The other question is...how far away do you place the CB from the first struck OB?

didn't he say put the cue in one corner and the object ball in the other corner diagonally????

take the pills man, take the pills.

VAP

drivermaker
05-24-2005, 09:52 AM
the cb is as i said in the jaws of opposite pocket! i play it like a break shot myself.


Oooops....missed that.