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View Full Version : Cut shots - Outside English or Inside English?


DougT
04-04-2005, 07:02 PM
I had been having trouble in making cut shots consistentently, say 30-45 degree cuts.
Now I aim using ghost ball, rather than contact point, and then adjusting a bit further to use outside english.

My accuracy has jumped pretty dramatically, even on some pretty thin cuts.

So my question is, does outside english help on cuts?
Or am I simply aiming better, and the outside reduces skidding or throw?

By the way, in this (my first) post, I'd like to thank the contributors for their knowledge and thoughts that have helped with my game. I've jumped up somewhat dramatically this year, in great part from some of the info I've gleaned here. Now and again, I'll read something and jump up to go try it out. So, to you I say thanks. I've been lurking in these parts for about 6 months now.

Doug

vapoolplayer
04-04-2005, 07:10 PM
I had been having trouble in making cut shots consistentently, say 30-45 degree cuts.
Now I aim using ghost ball, rather than contact point, and then adjusting a bit further to use outside english.

My accuracy has jumped pretty dramatically, even on some pretty thin cuts.

So my question is, does outside english help on cuts?
Or am I simply aiming better, and the outside reduces skidding or throw?

By the way, in this (my first) post, I'd like to thank the contributors for their knowledge and thoughts that have helped with my game. I've jumped up somewhat dramatically this year, in great part from some of the info I've gleaned here. Now and again, I'll read something and jump up to go try it out. So, to you I say thanks. I've been lurking in these parts for about 6 months now.

Doug


in general (there are exceptions) using outside english below center is the easiest way to cut a ball if you understand how to use it. you are able to hit the bull more full therefore making the visulization of the shot easier. conversely inside english used with stun is the hardest way to cut a ball.

VAP

VAP

Masayoshi
04-04-2005, 07:12 PM
i think inside reduces throw, but outside gives you the ability to cut thinner because it gives more throw. so its kind of a tradeoff, since throw can be hard to predict sometimes. or was it the opposite?

sjm
04-04-2005, 07:13 PM
Welcome to the forum. Here's a link to a thread in which this very subject is considered at length.

http://azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=8204

vapoolplayer
04-04-2005, 07:14 PM
i think inside reduces throw, but outside gives you the ability to cut thinner because it gives more throw. so its kind of a tradeoff, since throw can be hard to predict sometimes. or was it the opposite?

inside will still "throw" the ball.........just the other way.

VAP

Bob Jewett
04-04-2005, 07:21 PM
...
So my question is, does outside english help on cuts?
...
If you know about squirt, swerve and throw, then you begin to understand all the complications you are introducing when you put side spin on the cue ball. Does side spin possibly reduce some problem for some shots? Maybe. Does it introduce other problems? Certainly.

I think it's better to use the spin that's necessary for position. Usually that doesn't give you much leeway in which side spin (if any) you use.

I'm betting that if you set up a spot shot contest for the pros, most of them would play the shot without side.

vapoolplayer
04-04-2005, 07:25 PM
If you know about squirt, swerve and throw, then you begin to understand all the complications you are introducing when you put side spin on the cue ball. Does side spin possibly reduce some problem for some shots? Maybe. Does it introduce other problems? Certainly.

thanks bob, much better way to sum it up than the way i explained it.

thanks

VAP

woody_968
04-04-2005, 07:29 PM
If you know about squirt, swerve and throw, then you begin to understand all the complications you are introducing when you put side spin on the cue ball. Does side spin possibly reduce some problem for some shots? Maybe. Does it introduce other problems? Certainly.

I think it's better to use the spin that's necessary for position. Usually that doesn't give you much leeway in which side spin (if any) you use.

I'm betting that if you set up a spot shot contest for the pros, most of them would play the shot without side.

Well put Bob, in order to proplerly use english all 3 of the effects you mentioned need to be understood.

AceHigh
04-04-2005, 07:40 PM
here is what I did to get a better understanding of english and how the cueball reacts after making a shot.

I would play the ghost, and the first couple of racks, I would use nothing but center ball. The next couple of racks, just left and right english, then follow on all my shots, then only draw shots the next couple of racks.

IMO, this helps in learning how to make shots using all kinds of spin and even center ball. Because of this drill, I am now able to sometimes run entire racks using just center ball, or sidespin, or draw, or follow.

Masayoshi
04-04-2005, 08:04 PM
inside will still "throw" the ball.........just the other way.

VAP

i meant throw caused by extreme cuts, but yea, i understand your point.

sizl
04-04-2005, 08:11 PM
i think inside reduces throw, but outside gives you the ability to cut thinner because it gives more throw. so its kind of a tradeoff, since throw can be hard to predict sometimes. or was it the opposite?





If you put outside english on the ball it will "throw" the ball toward the pocket. If you use inside english it will "throw" it away from the pocket :eek:

DougT
04-04-2005, 08:15 PM
If you know about squirt, swerve and throw, then you begin to understand all the complications you are introducing when you put side spin on the cue ball. Does side spin possibly reduce some problem for some shots? Maybe. Does it introduce other problems? Certainly.

I think it's better to use the spin that's necessary for position. Usually that doesn't give you much leeway in which side spin (if any) you use.

I'm betting that if you set up a spot shot contest for the pros, most of them would play the shot without side.
I do understand, Bob, and occasionally forget to compensate for one or another. I'll try more centerball for a few nights, and see how it works for me.

SJM, thanks for the link; it was indeed the same question! Good helpful discussion

VAP why do you say outside english with LOW; doesn't that just amplify all the squirt and swerve?

Typically, I use just a touch of top on most shots, especially long shots, to minimize any swerve effects if unwanted sidespin gets added

cjgrandprix
04-04-2005, 09:23 PM
inside will still "throw" the ball.........just the other way.

VAP

Just cutting a ball can will cause some "throw". Inside english sometimes eliminates this because the reverse throw compensates for the throw caused by cut shots.

Rod
04-04-2005, 10:28 PM
I had been having trouble in making cut shots consistentently, say 30-45 degree cuts.
Now I aim using ghost ball, rather than contact point, and then adjusting a bit further to use outside english.

My accuracy has jumped pretty dramatically, even on some pretty thin cuts.

So my question is, does outside english help on cuts?
Or am I simply aiming better, and the outside reduces skidding or throw?

By the way, in this (my first) post, I'd like to thank the contributors for their knowledge and thoughts that have helped with my game. I've jumped up somewhat dramatically this year, in great part from some of the info I've gleaned here. Now and again, I'll read something and jump up to go try it out. So, to you I say thanks. I've been lurking in these parts for about 6 months now.

Doug


Your question has been answered. I'll just say you need to know how the c/b reacts at different angles and speed using inside or outside. You are limiting your capabilities using your "favorite" english. Practice variables from both sides of the table. Make them both your favorite. Then you'll have a full basket.

Rod

vapoolplayer
04-05-2005, 01:01 AM
VAP why do you say outside english with LOW; doesn't that just amplify all the squirt and swerve?

Typically, I use just a touch of top on most shots, especially long shots, to minimize any swerve effects if unwanted sidespin gets added

again there are TONS of variables here. depends on the amount of sidespin used. if you use a tip or less of side spin, with a generally level cue, you're not going to get an extreme amount of curve/swerve squirt. the farther outside you go on the cue ball the more squirt, the more elevated your cue, the more swerve/curve you get.

again there are tons of variables when using sidespin. i'm sure most would agree that no more than a tip of sidespin is needed 99 percent of the time. try usind low ball, outside english, most of the time it will make pocketing the ball easier, with no more than a tip of sidespin.

oh, watch out using the top/follow on most of your shots. the object ball tends to hop off the cloth more often when using top. if you watch most of your top players, you'll find most of their shots are using center to below center ball.

thanks

VAP

vapoolplayer
04-05-2005, 01:04 AM
Just cutting a ball can will cause some "throw". Inside english sometimes eliminates this because the reverse throw compensates for the throw caused by cut shots.

good point. i was just stating that inside will still throw the ball. this thread usually comes up every few months.....................way too many variables to make one statement for everything.

bob summed it up best when he said it would make some things easier and some things harder.

all depends on the shot angle and amount of sidespin/which sidespin used.

VAP

LastTwo
04-05-2005, 01:56 AM
I had been having trouble in making cut shots consistentently, say 30-45 degree cuts.
Now I aim using ghost ball, rather than contact point, and then adjusting a bit further to use outside english.

My accuracy has jumped pretty dramatically, even on some pretty thin cuts.

So my question is, does outside english help on cuts?
Or am I simply aiming better, and the outside reduces skidding or throw?

By the way, in this (my first) post, I'd like to thank the contributors for their knowledge and thoughts that have helped with my game. I've jumped up somewhat dramatically this year, in great part from some of the info I've gleaned here. Now and again, I'll read something and jump up to go try it out. So, to you I say thanks. I've been lurking in these parts for about 6 months now.

Doug

Bob Jewett said it best. Use whatever spin is necessary for position. If you make it a habit of always using a certain type of english for cut shots, for example, outside, it's just going to screw up your game. If it's the last ball on the table, or my out ball, I just stick to center. That way I don't have to worry about deflection or throw.

k-carson
04-05-2005, 02:04 AM
you have already gotten good advise here
but also you should not develop a habit of NEEDING the outside english
to pocket the ball learn how your stroke , your cue ,ect ect squirts the cueball
or you will find yourself making "whitey" in the cross side pocket as the
object ball pockets

k-carson
04-05-2005, 02:05 AM
Damm lasttwo great minds think alike ... but you type faster lol.

jjinfla
04-05-2005, 06:03 AM
If you know about squirt, swerve and throw, then you begin to understand all the complications you are introducing when you put side spin on the cue ball. Does side spin possibly reduce some problem for some shots? Maybe. Does it introduce other problems? Certainly.

I think it's better to use the spin that's necessary for position. Usually that doesn't give you much leeway in which side spin (if any) you use.

I'm betting that if you set up a spot shot contest for the pros, most of them would play the shot without side.

I agree, and that can explain why people miss the easy 9-ball cut. They out think themselves and forget about S/D/T.

Jake

TheBook
04-05-2005, 06:09 AM
I'm betting that if you set up a spot shot contest for the pros, most of them would play the shot without side.

Bob

Are you saying that they will not use any "English" or they will use outside? I know that you have the word without together so that mean without it, but just wanted to clarify that incase the spaces got miss placed.

TheBook
04-05-2005, 06:20 AM
On a very thin cut shot and some times a shot that seems impossible to cut in I have seen and then tried using inside english. The first time I seen the guy do this I thought it was wrong until I tried it. It is amazing and seems to go against all principles but it works. I make cut shoot that seem impossible to make. I think by using extreme inside and shooting to miss the edge of the ball causes the cueball to swerve around the object ball and hit it on the back side thus making a severe overcut.

vapoolplayer
04-05-2005, 07:35 AM
On a very thin cut shot and some times a shot that seems impossible to cut in I have seen and then tried using inside english. The first time I seen the guy do this I thought it was wrong until I tried it. It is amazing and seems to go against all principles but it works. I make cut shoot that seem impossible to make. I think by using extreme inside and shooting to miss the edge of the ball causes the cueball to swerve around the object ball and hit it on the back side thus making a severe overcut.

kinda right.........kinda wrong.................

you're not hitting the object ball in the backside.............you are just imparting spin on the object ball which helps with the cut.

very helpful tool to have in your arsenal, as those thin cuts show up very often. especially when the object ball is frozen to the rail.

Fred Agnir
04-05-2005, 08:30 AM
Just cutting a ball can will cause some "throw". Inside english sometimes eliminates this because the reverse throw compensates for the throw caused by cut shots.

Sounds backwards to me. Normally, the convention is that outside english is in the opposite direction of cut english.

Fred

drivermaker
04-05-2005, 08:50 AM
On a very thin cut shot and some times a shot that seems impossible to cut in I have seen and then tried using inside english. The first time I seen the guy do this I thought it was wrong until I tried it. It is amazing and seems to go against all principles but it works. I make cut shoot that seem impossible to make. I think by using extreme inside and shooting to miss the edge of the ball causes the cueball to swerve around the object ball and hit it on the back side thus making a severe overcut.


That would take some perfect speed and just the right amount of tip offset for varying distances. It would be like a pitcher getting his sinker ball to fall straight down just outside of the length of the bat at varying distances from the mound. It's already hard enough to judge it from the same distance everytime.

Matt_24
04-05-2005, 09:20 AM
I had been having trouble in making cut shots consistentently, say 30-45 degree cuts.
Now I aim using ghost ball, rather than contact point, and then adjusting a bit further to use outside english.

My accuracy has jumped pretty dramatically, even on some pretty thin cuts.

So my question is, does outside english help on cuts?
Or am I simply aiming better, and the outside reduces skidding or throw?

By the way, in this (my first) post, I'd like to thank the contributors for their knowledge and thoughts that have helped with my game. I've jumped up somewhat dramatically this year, in great part from some of the info I've gleaned here. Now and again, I'll read something and jump up to go try it out. So, to you I say thanks. I've been lurking in these parts for about 6 months now.

Doug

- My best advice would be to practice hard and learn all your cuts with centerball, outside, and inside English. You will need knowledge of all three Englishes in your arsenal. Practice them all until you are confident on how to sight and execute them, plus knowing how the cue ball will react. Best of luck!

Billy_Bob
04-05-2005, 10:20 AM
Place the OB 1/2" off the rail near the center pocket and cut it into the corner pocket. Try different cut angles, outside english, inside english, and center hit. Experiment.

I would have trouble with that shot using inside english and would be more able to make the ball into the pocket with outside english.

Other than balls close to the rail and trying to keep them from "throwing" into the rail, I like to be able to make cut shots with inside english, outside english, center, draw, or follow.

If the OB is far away from the pocket and a cut shot, I'll most likely use a center hit only as I'm just trying to make the darn pocket. If the OB is near a pocket, I feel more confident I can use english, make the ball into the pocket, *and* get the cue ball to go where I want.

The practice which has helped me the most (as someone here suggested) is to break all 15 balls, then shoot them all in with left. Then 15 more and all right, then 15 more then all draw, then follow, then left again, etc. Really helps to learn aiming for the various shots.

Bob Jewett
04-05-2005, 01:05 PM
Bob

Are you saying that they will not use any "English" or they will use outside? ...
Sorry for the ambiguity in the wording. I'll try again:

I'd bet that if you had a spot shot contest for the pros, most of them would play the shot with no side spin at all. I'd place a small additional bet that most of them would use follow to reduce swerve from unintended side, although they might not be consciously thinking about why they are using follow. Maybe one of the table vendors at an Expo should have a spot shot contest -- ten in a row and you come back for the finals.

Jon
04-05-2005, 01:36 PM
Bob Jewett said it best. Use whatever spin is necessary for position. If you make it a habit of always using a certain type of english for cut shots, for example, outside, it's just going to screw up your game. If it's the last ball on the table, or my out ball, I just stick to center. That way I don't have to worry about deflection or throw.
Yeah, but what about people that play their patterns so they can use the same type english on their cut shots? :D

~*~Here we go...~*~

LastTwo
04-05-2005, 05:16 PM
Yeah, but what about people that play their patterns so they can use the same type english on their cut shots? :D

~*~Here we go...~*~

Those people are nuts :P