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Opie
04-05-2005, 06:36 AM
I've been trying to improve my game so I thought gambling would help. In the few months I've been gambling my game has increased dramatically. I don't play high stakes, usually just 5 or 10 a game or a race for 50 or something. I'm not doing it to earn money, just to improve my game. I usually walk away with a few extra bucks or my pool time paid for for the weekend. When I'm gambling my game is pretty good and consistent. The problem is that now whenever I'm not in a money game and I try to play the same way my game just falls off dramatically. I've known a few guys that won't/can't play without money on the line. Question is, how do I avoid becoming one of these guys and keep consistency whether there's cash on the line or not? Any tips? Thanks.

scottycoyote
04-05-2005, 06:46 AM
best thing i can tell you is to remember the game is about having fun and getting better. Also, over time you will develop friends you play with.....who are close to your skill level, and it will get to the point where you really dotn want to beat each other out of money,just to practice and have bragging rights. I have a couple friends who i play low stakes games with, like race to 5 for 5 or something, in the end the winner basically gets enough to cover his time. Also we will play games I would never gamble on, like straight pool or one pocket.....this really helps my game at the same time it doesnt cost me and arm and a leg. Try and find some people like that you can shoot with on occasion.

chalkisfree
04-05-2005, 07:06 AM
I have the same problem. It seems automatic - when there is at least some pressure, concentration gets sharper and there is obviously a stronger will to win. Try to convince these non-gambling opponents that betting something - anything - on the game will result in better games (and bragging rights). If they are worried about a gap in skill levels, even it up with a fair handicap. I have given up trying to play my best game when playing for nothing. It just won't happen. I just enjoy the company and have a good time. Maybe he will underestimate your game and offer to play for something next time. If you have trouble finding money games, you need some other form of pressure. Get into tournaments as much as you can, and shoot drills alone, solitary games with a score so that you can monitor progress.

bruin70
04-05-2005, 07:20 AM
imo, gambling doesn't make you a better player, gambling makes you a better gambler. you have taught yourself how to focus on every shot. you have taught yourself the importance of every shot. this is what gambling has taught you, and this is where your game has improved. you probably play SMARTER, maybe duck more and play it safe.

the goal of gambling is finite,,,ie, to win money. this is what you've taught yourself, and this is why you play worse when you're not gambling. i can tell you that when i look around at players gambling, they're not really gambling. they're making games they feel they can win. is that "gambling"? what's the gamble? this is where gambling inevitably leads......easy games for you to make easy money. so,,,where's the learning and improving if you travel this road???

now it's time to IMPROVE your game, and here is where your mindset changes. the goal now is to improve the "beauty" of your game. create a masterpiece at the table........................play better players with beautiful games, and maybe some of it will rub off on you. this is where your game improves because honing the beauty of your game is a neverending challenge. no matter how good you get, you will always see flaws and you will always try to get better. your goals are no longer finite.

sorry for the sermonizing. amen, brotha :)

Jersey
04-05-2005, 07:26 AM
I try to play the best players in my room...get a friendly ring game...I like to play it like a skins game...play in rotation...gotta put three games together to win the skin...I usually play for league dues or a 'reasonable' beer tab... I like to play up...try that, and as these guys will present a challenge...I think what your really looking for is just that a 'challenge'...for me gambling doesn't get my game up or down...and I already spend plenty of $$$ on pool...so gambling would definately be out of the 'bosses' budget! :D

32-n-d
04-05-2005, 07:42 AM
Last night was my second time playing the "main stick" at my local pool room for money. I don't know exactly how I stand as far as my ability goes since there's no "real" standard on how to rate your speed, but I'd say that on any given day I shoot a "C" game, but I can move as fast as a solid "B" player. Anyway, when I played him for the first time for money, I saw that he gave my friend (our skills are about equal) the 6 out. He's not really playing us to make money (he makes his money off the other shooters there), rather, he's trying to help us with our game and teaches us after we finish races-pointing out what we need to work on.

I joke around and ask him to give me the 5 out...and he smirks and says "sure". We play some cheap sets (race to 5 for $5...he says that he doesn't like taking "milk-money" as he calls it...we're the younger players in the pool room) and on the first set I'm up 3-0. I start slacking off while he stops messing around and does five in a row on me. We go again and he runs me 5-1. My friend want's to get in on the action and jumps in on the 5 out spot. He gets ran too! He actually did better when he was playing the 6 out.

Going back to last night-I get bold and come up and ask only for the 7 out...wanting to see if this will raise my concentration-and it did. We instead do a race to 9 for $10 (still some cheap sets-strictly for the learning experience...we tell him it's our "tuition" for him teaching us a few things here and there). We're even up to 5-5...and he runs away 6-9.

We go out for a smoke and I tell him that I want another shot...he says "6 out this time". While we're smoking he says that I need to concentrate more and to "shoot every shot like it's your last". I reply (partly joking and but more serious) "with you, if I miss, it is my last shot". :(

The next set I concentrate a bit more, take a few more looks at the table and (with the help of some hangers by him) I win 9-5. I was even up as much as 6-1 in the beginning.

Sorry for the long post...but I don't think there's anything around the fact that gambling is a huge part about this game.

Opie
04-05-2005, 07:47 AM
[QUOTE=bruin70]...
the goal of gambling is finite,,,ie, to win money. this is what you've taught yourself, and this is why you play worse when you're not gambling. i can tell you that when i look around at players gambling, they're not really gambling. they're making games they feel they can win. is that "gambling"? what's the gamble? this is where gambling inevitably leads......easy games for you to make easy money. so,,,where's the learning and improving if you travel this road???.....

Every money game I play is on the square. I never play players that are below my level and when I play better players I don't ask for a spot where it is theft, just a fair game. There is a difference between "gambling" and "hustling". I gamble. Players who want easy money play the drunks and hustle. I would rather loose 50 bucks to a good pool player than win 100 off of someone that can't play.

chalkisfree
04-05-2005, 07:54 AM
Good job, 32-n-d. I once asked a pro if there was something I could do to improve my game, and he replied with "Do you like gambling?" He said to take from the weak and give to the strong. In other words, while it will benefit your game to play the tough guys, your pockets could take some punishment. Ease the pain by playing people under your level. Sure you will probably take their money (and feel guilty about it) but you may be improving their game too.

Mr441
04-05-2005, 08:13 AM
imo, gambling doesn't make you a better player, gambling makes you a better gambler. you have taught yourself how to focus on every shot. you have taught yourself the importance of every shot. this is what gambling has taught you, and this is where your game has improved. you probably play SMARTER, maybe duck more and play it safe.

the goal of gambling is finite,,,ie, to win money. this is what you've taught yourself, and this is why you play worse when you're not gambling. i can tell you that when i look around at players gambling, they're not really gambling. they're making games they feel they can win. is that "gambling"? what's the gamble? this is where gambling inevitably leads......easy games for you to make easy money. so,,,where's the learning and improving if you travel this road???

now it's time to IMPROVE your game, and here is where your mindset changes. the goal now is to improve the "beauty" of your game. create a masterpiece at the table........................play better players with beautiful games, and maybe some of it will rub off on you. this is where your game improves because honing the beauty of your game is a neverending challenge. no matter how good you get, you will always see flaws and you will always try to get better. your goals are no longer finite.

sorry for the sermonizing. amen, brotha :)


I'm willing to bet you've never gambled in pool in your entire life. Gambling DOES improve your game, ask any pro. Archer, Daulton, Strickland, Reyes, Parica, Buddy Hall, Rodney Morris and all the rest gambled a lot and many of them still gamble regularly. It helps one hanlde pressure and makes one focus on the shot at hand. You also learn faster, I remember gambling with a good player years ago and I played what I thought was a good safety and he kicked out in a way I hadn't thought of, now if that had happened in a fun game I'd never have remembered it, but because I lost money because of it, it was etched in my brain. I practiced that kick for the next 20-30 minutes and I haven't forgotten it since. I think it was the great Ronnie Allen, possibly the greatest one pocket player of all time who when asked how he got so good replied "playing for $500 game will improve your game faster than anything".

drivermaker
04-05-2005, 08:55 AM
I've been trying to improve my game so I thought gambling would help. In the few months I've been gambling my game has increased dramatically. I don't play high stakes, usually just 5 or 10 a game or a race for 50 or something. I'm not doing it to earn money, just to improve my game. I usually walk away with a few extra bucks or my pool time paid for for the weekend. When I'm gambling my game is pretty good and consistent. The problem is that now whenever I'm not in a money game and I try to play the same way my game just falls off dramatically. I've known a few guys that won't/can't play without money on the line. Question is, how do I avoid becoming one of these guys and keep consistency whether there's cash on the line or not? Any tips? Thanks.


If that was ALWAYS the case...then why are there so many LOSER gamblers who have been playing for years and still can't shoot worth a damn?

chalkisfree
04-05-2005, 09:12 AM
If that was ALWAYS the case...then why are there so many LOSER gamblers who have been playing for years and still can't shoot worth a damn?
Good question. While gambling is a good way to maintain focus and drive, it doesn't make a player better if it isn't supplemented with serious study of the game and hours of practice.

ScottR
04-05-2005, 09:29 AM
Good question. While gambling is a good way to maintain focus and drive, it doesn't make a player better if it isn't supplemented with serious study of the game and hours of practice.
Plus, does it really put pressure on you and make you bear down if you are betting small money that you can afford to lose? To paraphrase the old saying, "pressue is betting with empty pockets".

Opie
04-05-2005, 10:49 AM
Good question. While gambling is a good way to maintain focus and drive, it doesn't make a player better if it isn't supplemented with serious study of the game and hours of practice.


I have been studying the game and reading whatever I can get my hands on. I try to play as much as possible. I just think throwing in the money games is helping improve my play alot. It seems to just speed up the process of improvement for me. Off the subject but, I ordered the Pro Book by Henning from Accu-Stats. Has anyone read it and if you ordered something from Accu-Stats via check how long did it take you to get it in the mail?

Black-Balled
04-05-2005, 11:44 AM
Plus, does it really put pressure on you and make you bear down if you are betting small money that you can afford to lose? To paraphrase the old saying, "pressue is betting with empty pockets".
Not the air barrell!

Perk
04-05-2005, 11:57 AM
Off the subject but, I ordered the Pro Book by Henning from Accu-Stats. Has anyone read it ?

You will enjoy this book, and as an informational resource, it can improve your aspects of your game, so long as you work at it. I didnt spend nearly as much time with the book as I should of, but what time I did spend, I still can remember certain drills, and varients when they come up in a game. There is merit behind them. IMO

shoutout33
04-05-2005, 12:04 PM
Man I didn't want to get into this one...I really didn't. :o Ok, can gambling help your game? Yes it can. Is gambling the only way to achieve your best game? No it's not. Think about it. If I find someone who is better than me and I play them on a regular basis, no gambling involved, what makes you think he's going to be soft on me? Also, if I get tired of getting beat enough, I'm going to get better. I've had guys let me play them before and I'd win one game and get crushed as well, didn't pay a dime except for the table, and my game improved.

Give you a ball...for what?!? I have a cousin and a good friend now (one is a 5 APA and the other is 6 APA, I think...and a 5 BCA), when they play me, they don't give me a ball. If I wanted to play for money, they still wouldn't give me a ball. That's how I get better. In a one pocket game, I don't want you to give me a ball reguardless how good your game is. If I made at least one ball even though you made your eight, I can't complain if I know how good you are. I made a ball at least! :D Nine ball for me is still the same. Make the nine ball, race to whatever! The way I look at it is sure, I won't play for money, but you let the dogs out on me and I'll fend for myself the best way I can. There are players who will coach you like this.

Want to put money into it? Go to a amature tournament. You say you don't want to gamble to make money but get better? Put up anywhere from $50-$100 to get into a tournament and try and win it! If you want to win that grandprize money, you'll improve quickly! :D If you want to gamble fine, but it's not the ONLY way to get better with your game.

Besides, if you really want to gamble, play some one-pocket. Say, $20-$50 a game. And this is nothing, I've seen cats bet $1000+ a game in one-pocket. I bet you'll improve your game then. Yeah I know, it's a bit extreme, but this is the "gambling" I know about and remember. To me, you should be able to bring your "A" game at ANYTIME time, money on the line or not. I assure you that if someone beats you bad enough without money on the line, you probably don't want to play them WITH money on the line. :D :p :rolleyes:

chalkisfree
04-05-2005, 12:20 PM
Last week I hammered on a guy for a rather quick $75, and the whole time I knew he was fighting a losing battle. Then a couple nights ago we played again, but just for fun. He gave me twice the beating that I gave him last week, running racks and sinking shots from anywhere on the table. So who's the better player? Hard to say, but at least I'm $75 ahead!

bruin70
04-05-2005, 01:09 PM
[QUOTE=bruin70]...
the goal of gambling is finite,,,ie, to win money. this is what you've taught yourself, and this is why you play worse when you're not gambling. i can tell you that when i look around at players gambling, they're not really gambling. they're making games they feel they can win. is that "gambling"? what's the gamble? this is where gambling inevitably leads......easy games for you to make easy money. so,,,where's the learning and improving if you travel this road???.....

Every money game I play is on the square. I never play players that are below my level and when I play better players I don't ask for a spot where it is theft, just a fair game. There is a difference between "gambling" and "hustling". I gamble. Players who want easy money play the drunks and hustle. I would rather loose 50 bucks to a good pool player than win 100 off of someone that can't play.


the diff in gambling and hustling, as i see it, is not who you play. otherwise you'd have to consider reyes is hustling almost every game he sets up. to me "hustling" is hiding your speed to take advantage.

hobokenapa
04-05-2005, 01:10 PM
Money on it does nothing for me. My best game only comes out in tournament play. I would have far more focus in the Final of a tournament (singles or team), or in practice approaching a 50-ball straight ball run than $20 race-to-seven game. I often wondered if larger stakes would make a difference (race to seven for $1000) but I'm not convinced. I guess if you are money orientated person, or a natural born gambler it means more. I am neither.

bruin70
04-05-2005, 01:28 PM
,,,,,ago and I played what I thought was a good safety and he kicked out in a way I hadn't thought of, now if that had happened in a fun game I'd never have remembered it, but because I lost money because of it, it was etched in my brain. I practiced that kick for the next 20-30 minutes and I haven't forgotten it since. ".

you're making it sound like gambling is the only way for you to take it seriously. well,,,that may be true FOR YOU. remember also that gambling is the de facto way all american(and you can throw in the filipinos) players grew up.

i'll tell you what,,,,,,,take two players of equal skill and equal potential, and have one hone his skills by gambling and the other by playing great players,,,and ten years later, i'll take the non gambler any day EXCEPT WHEN AND ONLY WHEN THERE'S GAMBLING.

and here's the kicker,,,if the non gambler has a calm unflappable personility, he will be able to gamble anyway AND with a better game, while the gambler will not have played anyone great to have learned from.

chefjeff
04-05-2005, 01:33 PM
I think the reason gambling sparks your game is because money represents time, work, basically life. So losing it basically respresents death. All to a lessor degree usually, but gambling involves life/death. What a great motivator!

Like fire, if used properly, it can make life nicer. Or...

Either way, YOU are the one deciding why and how you play. Not the money or the competition, just you. Try deciding to play well without gambling for a while and then discover a new dimension of personal power. Take the time and see what happens.

imho,

Jeff Livingston

1on1pooltournys
04-05-2005, 01:36 PM
Gambling is good for your game. It will teach you to be a warrior and make the desire to win come more frequently. If two even players play, but one of them has been matching up daily gambling, feeling the pressure, he's obviously going to beat the other guy that plays even with him. A good top pro once told me, "It should be illegal for good players to be in a pool room playing for fun." I understand the point he was making. You don't have to bet arms and legs, just something to make you feel a little heat:)

chalkisfree
04-05-2005, 01:44 PM
Money on it does nothing for me. My best game only comes out in tournament play. I would have far more focus in the Final of a tournament (singles or team), or in practice approaching a 50-ball straight ball run than $20 race-to-seven game. I often wondered if larger stakes would make a difference (race to seven for $1000) but I'm not convinced. I guess if you are money orientated person, or a natural born gambler it means more. I am neither.
I think more money on it would do the trick for you in a gambling situation. I totally agree with you on the focus experienced in tournaments AND serious practice sessions in which you can keep some sort of score.

Mr441
04-05-2005, 01:54 PM
you're making it sound like gambling is the only way for you to take it seriously. well,,,that may be true FOR YOU. remember also that gambling is the de facto way all american(and you can throw in the filipinos) players grew up.

i'll tell you what,,,,,,,take two players of equal skill and equal potential, and have one hone his skills by gambling and the other by playing great players,,,and ten years later, i'll take the non gambler any day EXCEPT WHEN AND ONLY WHEN THERE'S GAMBLING.

and here's the kicker,,,if the non gambler has a calm unflappable personility, he will be able to gamble anyway AND with a better game, while the gambler will not have played anyone great to have learned from.


I never said gambling was the only way to improve, but IMO it's the quickest most effective way. It's obvious you don't gamble otherwise I'm sure you'd see things a little differently. I was stuck at B level for 5 years at least then I started gambling, even taking matches I had little chance of winning just to make myself focus, after about a year I was an A+, my high run in straight pool went from 58 to 131, with many runs in the 80's and 90's along the way. The effect of gambling was obvious. Of course if you play great players your game also improve, but without the gambling or at least tournament play progress is generally slow for most players.

shoutout33
04-05-2005, 02:37 PM
Tournament play and Gambling are two completley different things though aren't they? I mean, yeah you are putting you money up to compete, but you are competing against more than one person. You have to be on your p's and q's for more than one person. Just because you win a match, doesn't mean you get any money right away. I've seen guys take money gambling before no problem, but you get them in a tourney and they can't make the cut to save their life. :p

32-n-d
04-05-2005, 03:54 PM
I think an individuals game improves more when they play a weaker player and give them weight rather than when they play a stronger player and take weight.

Thats what I like the most about the more seasoned players that shoot at my pool room. When they play someone that they know is playing more for the experience and to improve their game...they don't run all over you and take your money, they play for just enough so that you a feel the sting in wallet...but never an amount that will kill your spirits. It's almost like they want our game to improve more than they want the money.

When they give out obviously too much weight, they never think that its unfair for them...they just step up their game even more and get better. Thats how the guy I played got so good. He told me that when he grew up in the Philippines, priority was given to the players that were going to play for money over the ones just shooting for fun. He said he was playing for money even before he knew how to pocket balls. While we were haveing a smoke break (before I finally beat him in a set) he told me "No pain, no gain". And I thought-"what a corny saying". And he told me how he dished out a lot of cash when he was younger to the sharks in his hall in the Philippines because he didn't want to take any weight...then soon enough, he was the one taking the cash.

I view playing a better player as more of a lesson and an opportunity to see how they move around the table, what type of english to move the cb with, and most importantly when and how to play safe. At least that's how I see it. Like in my previous post...when I lose money to a better player at the pool hall, I like to think of it as "tuition".

Teacherman
04-05-2005, 04:24 PM
I think an individuals game improves more when they play a weaker player and give them weight rather than when they play a stronger player and take weight. ...

Total hogwash.

Teacherman
04-05-2005, 04:34 PM
Funny how all the people who don't gamble can tell you that it doesn't help your game.

Do I hear rationalization for your fear?

bruin70
04-05-2005, 05:14 PM
Funny how all the people who don't gamble can tell you that it doesn't help your game.

Do I hear rationalization for your fear?
wrong word....it's not a fear. it's having something better to do with their money. it's also not wanting to put in the hours to compete in that manner. it's also one's perspective of the value of money,,,ie, is a friendly game for $10 really gambling enough to take seriously?,,,,,,, or should it be $500.

and as i mentioned earlier...what's the gamble if everyone tries to make a game in their favor? i see this ALL the time with some very good players. isn't that why a lot of games never get made,,,because neither party could come to an "equitable" game(read that "equitable FOR THEM")? gamble is when you have a 50% or less chance to win. so if "the gamblers " posting here aren't doing that, then they're not gambling.

32-n-d
04-05-2005, 05:37 PM
I'm refering mainly to improving a players mental aspect of the game.
I neglected to mention that I'm at the point in my game where I'm trying to rid myself of all of my mental blocks and am speaking from my personal experience. I'll admit that my physical sense for the game improved more rapidly when I played better players...but once I figured out how to move the cb around, the amount I learned from better players started growing thin.

It wasn't until I started giving out weight that I felt another jump in my game. I felt it harder to concentrate when I played the individuals that I got "used to" losing to. My difference in concentration was like night and day...I know at least a few of you out there can relate. Almost like the difference between when I play one of my regular pool buddies and when you play a perfect stranger for the first time.

I've always felt that it was easier to lose concentration as an underdog compared to being the favorite-due to the fact that even with a spot, it is more acceptable for a weaker player to lose to a stronger one, even though the handicap should have taken care of that gap in ability.

bruin70
04-05-2005, 05:54 PM
I'm refering mainly to improving a players mental aspect of the game.
I neglected to mention that I'm at the point in my game where I'm trying to rid myself of all of my mental blocks and am speaking from my personal experience. I'll admit that my physical sense for the game improved more rapidly when I played better players...but once I figured out how to move the cb around, the amount I learned from better players started growing thin.

It wasn't until I started giving out weight that I felt another jump in my game. I felt it harder to concentrate when I played the individuals that I got "used to" losing to. My difference in concentration was like night and day...I know at least a few of you out there can relate. Almost like the difference between when I play one of my regular pool buddies and when you play a perfect stranger for the first time.

I've always felt that it was easier to lose concentration as an underdog compared to being the favorite-due to the fact that even with a spot, it is more acceptable for a weaker player to lose to a stronger one, even though the handicap should have taken care of that gap in ability.


yeah,,,,that's what i've been saying. the gambling part,,,that's a mental thing. if one misses from lapse of concentration because the "gambling incentive" is not there,,,it's not that he can't make the shot, it's just a lapse in focus. gambling might make you focus, it didn't teach you the shot.

TO LEARN THE GAME,,,,that takes practice and playing better players, as you said.

so we're talking about two different aspects of improvement. i would rather play well and not gamble well(i just won't gamble in that case), than gamble well and not play well....oh well:):)

Ktown D
04-05-2005, 06:04 PM
"pressue is betting with empty pockets".


I don't know if it will make you play better, but it'll damn sure make you run faster...

Teacherman
04-05-2005, 06:14 PM
wrong word....it's not a fear. it's having something better to do with their money...

My word is just fine. You like your money too much to get better. You refuse to pay your dues. You refuse to get into the arena. Yet, you claim to know what it's like.

Maybe you should talk about the weather.

Teacherman
04-05-2005, 06:15 PM
...I felt it harder to concentrate when I played the individuals that I got "used to" losing to...

There's a clue in there somewhere.

bruin70
04-05-2005, 06:23 PM
My word is just fine. You like your money too much to get better. You refuse to pay your dues. You refuse to get into the arena. Yet, you claim to know what it's like.

Maybe you should talk about the weather.

"i like my money too much to get better." if that's not the quintessential bullshit response,,,,, you obviously fail to see that some don't need it to get good. ask mika about that.

i CLAIM to know what it's like???? what the frick are you reading!

here, Teach, just for you. maybe this will help.
http://www.weatherunderground.com/

titanic
04-05-2005, 08:46 PM
I'm at the counter in Oakland ( The Rathole ) paying the time complaining about the guy slopping the 9 in for the cash. An old player named Dutch calls me over and says " What was he doing at the table?" If you didn't miss he could not have slopped in the 9 ball. He then gave me the greatest words of wisdom. He told me if I liked to gamble I should take myself to Tahoe or Reno. Only a fool would lose his money in a pool room! Why????? Because all you have to do is play weaker players than you. And all that takes is having the patience to wait for that person to show up.
The guys that make money at the racetrack are the ones who wait and bet on the race they really like their chances in. The don't go out and play all twelve races. That is for the people just out to have a good time and throw away some money.

But...........................if you want to play better you have to play people better than you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If that were not so anyone should be able to go get a stick, a table, some videos and books and become a world class player. Never has happened and never will.

Historically the better players played the weaker players cheap so they could learn. But in this game I never heard of anyone learning for free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Titanic Jerry

Teacherman
04-05-2005, 08:51 PM
"i like my money too much to get better." if that's not the quintessential bullshit response,,,,, you obviously fail to see that some don't need it to get good. ask mika about that.

Hey lemming, I don't think you'll find in my posts that I said gambling is the only way to get good.

What I said was you should talk of something about which you know.

scottycoyote
04-05-2005, 09:14 PM
i used to think i could only play well when i gambled. Playing for fun or something less than good stakes meant i wasnt going to be into the game, wasnt going to be focused because i had nothing to lose. What this did was basically stunt my pool growth, because did i ever practice? no...cuz i couldnt get into it cuz there was no money on it and i already had myself believing i coudlnt play with no money there.

Does gambling make you focus better, make you feel like youre playing youre best game? Yes for most people, the loss of money/chance to win money gives you a purpose and a motivator. But do I know lots of awful players who do nothing but gamble? yep, so obviously it doesnt make you a better player, or there guys would be at the us open.

That being said......i absolutely love to gamble on pool, not advocating you stop. I am saying I think it can hurt your game.....unless you can use gambling and the chance to win money as a motivation to practice more, so you can win more......cuz plain and simple, practice is the only way youre ever going to get as good as you can get.
If you need some other motivation, check out the book "pleasures of small motions", it really helped me grow as a pool player

lcksmith
04-06-2005, 01:02 AM
I just want to know the name of one champion did not gamble ever. I am not talking about the hometown hero who sits and talks about the days when he beat everyone in the world but dosen't want to play anyone today. The problem with pool today is that everyone is so scared to put up the money that nobody gets any action. They all want to sit around and talk about how good they are and show everyone their new thousand dollar cue but when asked to play for a nickel they either have somewhere to go or their back hurts and they broke their pinky toe yesterday.

vapoolplayer
04-06-2005, 01:06 AM
I just want to know the name of one champion did not gamble ever. .

ralf souqet and thorsten hohman(sp)....................i could be wrong but i don't think either one gambled much if at all before they won the world championships.

VAP

drivermaker
04-06-2005, 05:25 AM
Most everyone on here says to pay your dues by gambling and playing against better players if you want to play at a higher level. And yes, that's the way I learned the game and how most everyone who took up the game learned how to play it when I started back in 1960. We played and practiced real hard and gambled heavy.

But this is a different era and there's so much more available today that it's moronic to donate your money to some slob (like me and other hardened players) to learn how to play the game. I'm not going to teach you shit if we're playing for money, all I'm going to do is take it as long as you want to keep handing it over. And if you ever DID start getting good enough to win, I'd just go find someone else exactly like you in the earlier stages and say bye-bye. But that's not going to happen either because you'd quit me way before I quit you.

Knowing what I know now and if I was a young feller wanting to improve, I'd put that money into some personal one on one instruction with a couple of the best names that I could find right off the bat and get REAL good REAL fast. That wasn't available when I was coming up. Then there would no longer be any "gamble" in the game. I'd be the one "betting" against your "gamble" and cleaning your ass out. All in all even though lessons can get expensive with top name instructors, it's still a lot cheaper than giving it away in "hopes" that you'll learn.

vapoolplayer
04-06-2005, 05:32 AM
Most everyone on here says to pay your dues by gambling and playing against better players if you want to play at a higher level. And yes, that's the way I learned the game and how most everyone who took up the game learned how to play it when I started back in 1960. We played and practiced real hard and gambled heavy.

But this is a different era and there's so much more available today that it's moronic to donate your money to some slob (like me and other hardened players) to learn how to play the game. I'm not going to teach you shit if we're playing for money, all I'm going to do is take it as long as you want to keep handing it over. And if you ever DID start getting good enough to win, I'd just go find someone else exactly like you in the earlier stages and say bye-bye. But that's not going to happen either because you'd quit me way before I quit you.

Knowing what I know now and if I was a young feller wanting to improve, I'd put that money into some personal one on one instruction with a couple of the best names that I could find right off the bat and get REAL good REAL fast. That wasn't available when I was coming up. Then there would no longer be any "gamble" in the game. I'd be the one "betting" against your "gamble" and cleaning your ass out. All in all even though lessons can get expensive with top name instructors, it's still a lot cheaper than giving it away in "hopes" that you'll learn.

gambling does help pay for those high priced lessons though........... :D

VAP

drivermaker
04-06-2005, 05:37 AM
gambling does help pay for those high priced lessons though........... :D

VAP


Unlike yourself, some people do work.... :D

Yea, yea,..I know...you have a job. :p

vapoolplayer
04-06-2005, 05:55 AM
Unlike yourself, some people do work.... :D

Yea, yea,..I know...you have a job. :p

i may have a job but, i'll never try to pretend like i work............ :cool:


VAP

drivermaker
04-06-2005, 06:00 AM
i may have a job but, i'll never try to pretend like i work............ :cool:


VAP


I don't doubt it...your boss says the same thing every day about you. :D

vapoolplayer
04-06-2005, 06:03 AM
I don't doubt it...your boss says the same thing every day about you. :D

well i wouldn't want him to get any expectations, hell, one day i decide to do something worthwhile, and he'll expect me to do it everyday..........


VAP<<<<<using the boss's computer to post on AZB :p

drivermaker
04-06-2005, 06:38 AM
well i wouldn't want him to get any expectations, hell, one day i decide to do something worthwhile, and he'll expect me to do it everyday..........



I can't fault you for that. Just remember, the same thing applies to women. The first time you take out the garbage or change a light bulb...all hell breaks loose. They want and expect you to do EVERYTHING. Then on top of it you have to cuddle, snuggle, be expressive, pour out your feelings, be thoughtful, caring, hold hands everywhere you go, go shopping with kthem for days on end, get a housekeeper (if you're not doing it yourself), a cook (same as previous), and on and on ad infinitum. THEN...you're compared to all of the Cosmo articles on the perfect man.
(This should bring some comments)LOL I can't wait.....

vapoolplayer
04-06-2005, 06:44 AM
I can't fault you for that. Just remember, the same thing applies to women. The first time you take out the garbage or change a light bulb...all hell breaks loose. They want and expect you to do EVERYTHING. Then on top of it you have to cuddle, snuggle, be expressive, pour out your feelings, be thoughtful, caring, hold hands everywhere you go, go shopping with kthem for days on end, get a housekeeper (if you're not doing it yourself), a cook (same as previous), and on and on ad infinitum. THEN...you're compared to all of the Cosmo articles on the perfect man.
(This should bring some comments)LOL I can't wait.....

i wish you would have told me that 14 months ago..........i found out the hard way............ :rolleyes:

VAP

Teacherman
04-06-2005, 08:53 AM
... I'd put that money into some personal one on one instruction with a couple of the best names that I could find right off the bat and get REAL good REAL fast...

...And then proceed to get your clock cleaned by a player that plays your speed but has the experience of "serious" competition.

drivermaker
04-06-2005, 09:19 AM
...And then proceed to get your clock cleaned by a player that plays your speed but has the experience of "serious" competition.


That could definitely happen...but who says a person can't get their "experience" from "serious" competition learning to be a "winner" instead of learning to be a "loser" for a long time. They'll still lose, but nowhere near as much until they pay their "playing in the trenches" dues.
Are you sure you're a Teacher?

Teacherman
04-06-2005, 11:50 AM
Wanting to make this next shot (complete with the knowledge of how to and the skill to do it) is completely different than having to make it.

Until you can get out when you have to instead of when you want to........you're a wannabe.

DaveK
04-06-2005, 12:01 PM
That could definitely happen...but who says a person can't get their "experience" from "serious" competition learning to be a "winner" instead of learning to be a "loser" for a long time. They'll still lose, but nowhere near as much until they pay their "playing in the trenches" dues.
Are you sure you're a Teacher?

This whole 'gotta gamble to get good at pool' is a culture IMO. The 'gambling scene' around here has been going on for so long that most on the inside of the pool culture believe that it is the only way. Most serious sports are not 'learn on your own in the school of hard knocks'.

I'm real glad that swimming is taught according to a program. I can just see some silly pool player throwing their kid into deep water yelling 'sink or swim kid !'. Or how about boxing. Rather than teach the rudiments, strategy, and conditioning elements, just have new boxer-wannabes match up against other boxers wagering their cash on the outcome ! Sure, great way to develop talent :rolleyes: Seriously, you may end up with a couple of good swimmers (and a few dead ones, and a bunch that will be afraid of water for the rest of their lives) and a few good boxers (and a bunch of beat-up dudes), but there are much better ways.

Gambling may be an excellent teacher of competition within the game, but it does little to develop pool skills other than provide motivation to find a way to learn ... and there are damn few good opportunities to learn pool from what I can see.

Dave, who like most pool players is self taught and has a lot of bad habits as a result, and wonders how the kids learning pool in school in Taiwan will fare over the next decade or two ...

Teacherman
04-06-2005, 12:41 PM
Answer this question.

When do you know something????????

k-carson
04-06-2005, 01:09 PM
i think its all about having the killer instinct
even though i personally play my best if i hate my opponent
instead of need his money
regaurdless of how you motivate yourself greed, desire, need , hate ,
nothing tops having been in a similar position before

DaveK
04-06-2005, 01:09 PM
Answer this question.

When do you know something????????

Today.

My turn ...

When might you know something ?


Dave

AceHigh
04-06-2005, 01:18 PM
Today.

My turn ...

When might you know something ?


Dave


IN YO FACE, BIATCH!!!

Teacherman
04-06-2005, 01:32 PM
My bad.....forgot I'm on a pool player forum. Let me simplifiy for you.

When do know something?........as in......I know it when I can do it 50% of the time.........or 75% of the time.........95% of the time.......or on demand..............or all the time........etc etc.

DaveK
04-06-2005, 01:57 PM
My bad.....forgot I'm on a pool player forum. Let me simplifiy for you.

When do know something?........as in......I know it when I can do it 50% of the time.........or 75% of the time.........95% of the time.......or on demand..............or all the time........etc etc.


No problem TM, I appreciate that at your age your memory may not be what it once was. Thanks for 'simplifiy'ing, I never would have deciphered your meaning from the original text. I have no answer to this question, is there one ?

Dave

drivermaker
04-06-2005, 01:58 PM
Wanting to make this next shot (complete with the knowledge of how to and the skill to do it) is completely different than having to make it.

Until you can get out when you have to instead of when you want to........you're a wannabe.


True...your point being?

allie
04-06-2005, 02:29 PM
It seems to me that just about everyone here has brought up some very valid points. It's true that if you can play hard without playing for money, than you can learn to play under self-imposed pressure, rather than the money pressure. But for people like myself (unfortunately), I can only play hard if I'm playing for money. It's sad to say, but even when I play for only $10, I screw around way too much.

When I first started learning, there were no handicapped or women's tournaments in my area. I put up anywhere between $10 to $75 to enter into men's (open) events. Then on top of that, I started to gamble. Now I play eight events a year, and I find that the only way to keep my mind 'in stroke' is to gamble. While there are weekly open and handicapped events (and even women's tournaments) in my area now, I've gotten 'used' to them, where there seems to be no pressure on me. I'm not saying I have to play for hundreds or thousands, but I do enjoy playing sets for $25, $50 or $100. I figure, even if I lose, I've gained something from it. At the very least, I got practice out of it, and experience....which is more than I can say for losing my money at the casino.

Alice Rim

Teacherman
04-06-2005, 02:36 PM
True...your point being?

It's over your head.

chefjeff
04-06-2005, 02:44 PM
That could definitely happen...but who says a person can't get their "experience" from "serious" competition learning to be a "winner" instead of learning to be a "loser" for a long time. They'll still lose, but nowhere near as much until they pay their "playing in the trenches" dues.
Are you sure you're a Teacher?

Ah....I was just waiting for you two to meet on the forum.

I'm riding shotgun!

Jeff Livingston

APA9
04-06-2005, 02:57 PM
...And then proceed to get your clock cleaned by a player that plays your speed but has the experience of "serious" competition.

If I'm ever in your neck of the woods I'll stop by your pool room and see if I can get some of that experience playing you some high dollar sets. :cool:

drivermaker
04-06-2005, 03:34 PM
It's over your head.


Hey Rudedog....John...where are you? You were right all along. He's a moron.