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View Full Version : What is a Custom Cue in your opinion


Bruce S. de Lis
04-05-2005, 10:16 AM
Thought this would be a Fun Question to ask as I personally think peoples ideas differ on this Question.

I personally feel a TRUE CUSTOM Cue is made by a Low Production Cue Maker, and not a High Production Cuemaker like Mucci, or Joss. (not picking on them just useing two makers names)

A Custom Cue is made to the owners specifications, and maybe the owner also has input on picking of woods, etc.

It is not 1 of 50 or 1 of 500 to me those terms are associated with “Limited Editions”.

Custom is not only a One of a Kind also but could be a One of a Kind. It is like the difference between an off the Rack Suit that is tailored to fit the Customer after it is picked off the rack verses, a Suit that is made to the customers specification, and measurement by a Master Tailor. :D

ScottR
04-05-2005, 10:32 AM
Custom is not only a One of a Kind also but could be a One of a Kind. It is like the difference between an off the Rack Suit that is tailored to fit the Customer after it is picked off the rack verses, a Suit that is made to the customers specification, and measurement by a Master Tailor. :D
Your last paragraph sums it up for me. Made for me, with my specifications and input (wood, colors, inlays, etc.) and hopefully one of a kind.

Fred Agnir
04-05-2005, 10:32 AM
[COLOR=DarkRed][b]
Thought this would be a Fun Question to ask as I personally think peoples ideas differ on this Question.Everything that's not a house cue. I'm basing that on what has become the manufacturing standard on the word "custom." That is, anything that is a departure from the norm for a customer. And the customer may not be a specific person. In every industry, be it motorcycle parts or whole cars, temporary tattoos, to coffee mugs, to houses, custom "things" are made. They may not have a specific person in mind. And they may be in a catalog. And they may have many made, even in high production. What sets them as "custom" stems from the idea that whatever they are, they aren't the standard norm.

For cues, I consider the standard norm as the spliced house-cue.

Everything more specific than that should or could get a more definite description.

I personally feel a TRUE CUSTOM Cue is made by a Low Production Cue Maker, and not a High Production Cuemaker like Mucci, or Joss. (not picking on them just useing two makers names)

Maybe you just don't realize this, but Dan Janes and Joss cues make about a dozen TRUE CUSTOM Cues (by your definition) a year.


Fred

Jersey
04-05-2005, 10:33 AM
Interesting...I'm SURE you will get some good responses to this post!...I have simular feeling's...I was recently in the market for a new cue...so called 'custom' or so called 'production'...hmm, talked to Dan Janes (Joss), I was going to use his 'Create a Cue' feature on his website...emailed him a few questions...when I asked 'would this be considered a custom?', I mean I was choosing butt, forearm, joint wrap etc...but would doing that from a few selections in each catagory constitute 'custom'...he replied, 'you tell me', which didn't really answer my ?...I was seeking his advice and knowledge...it was to be the first time I was going to purchase using this method, and he seemed indifferent to my ?...I wasn't trying to imply anything or to make a judgement about his work or cues...hell he's been making cues forever...you know what I mean?...I ultimately bought a Schon LTD...(LTD are suppose to be runs of no more than 12, 1 X only), and people say they are 'production', but talk to Evan and he'll tell you, you know he's got 5 craftsman working there, they make every cue by hand, and are definately not what people consider ''production'...ie McD, Viking, Meucci etc...

my 2c-

SSach
04-05-2005, 10:39 AM
Well I think anytime you alter a standard you are creating something that is now "Custom." For cues however there is no standard. I think every cuemaker out there (both "Production" and so-called "Custom") have unique specs that make there cues play in a unique way. That is why a Southwest plays the way they do and a Meucci play the way they do.

I think what seperates a custom cuemaker from the production companies is the ability to change or alter their specs to fit the needs provided by the end customer. In order to qualify as custom, IMHO, it has to be altered to the specs of the customer. For example adding an Ivory joint with a 3/8-10 pin to a Meucci and leaving the rest of the cue as is would be a modification and thus creating a custom cue.

On the same note, buying a cue from a so-called custom cuemaker does not make the cue you own a "Custom" cue.

Jersey
04-05-2005, 10:46 AM
Well I think anytime you alter a standard you are creating something that is now "Custom." For cues however there is no standard. I think every cuemaker out there (both "Production" and so-called "Custom") have unique specs that make there cues play in a unique way. That is why a Southwest plays the way they do and a Meucci play the way they do.

I think what seperates a custom cuemaker from the production companies is the ability to change or alter their specs to fit the needs provided by the end customer. In order to qualify as custom, IMHO, it has to be altered to the specs of the customer. For example adding an Ivory joint with a 3/8-10 pin to a Meucci and leaving the rest of the cue as is would be a modification and thus creating a custom cue.

On the same note, buying a cue from a so-called custom cuemaker does not make the cue you own a "Custom" cue.


Very good points...

Bruce S. de Lis
04-05-2005, 10:47 AM
Your last paragraph sums it up for me. Made for me, with my specifications and input (wood, colors, inlays, etc.) and hopefully one of a kind.

Glade one person agrees with me ;)

Koop
04-05-2005, 10:48 AM
Not trying to be a wise guy but this is from dictionary.com

custom

adj : made according to the specifications of an individual [syn: custom-made, customized, customised] [ant: ready-made]


I believe, according this definition, custom would not include most production makers because of the "of an individual" portion. Not to say that as Fred pointed out, makers like Joss do make a limited amount of customs per year, but for the most part they would not be considered custom.
Unless of course you take a production cue and re-taper the shaft. I guess now it would be considered customized.
My brain hurts, back to work.

MrLucky
04-05-2005, 10:59 AM
I have seen how lately all cuemakers seem to like to use the term custom in their manufacturing process or at least in the marketing process even my favorite production maker McDermott advertises they make custom cues! I personally believe that a cue like my 40 year old Palmer, made in his garage totally by hand and by my uncles request, is truly a custom cue! or in todays world when I can call or visit a limited production cuemaker who uses no production line but completely hand makes and designs a cue to my specifications and desires would be a true custom cue ! When a mass producer (in my opinion more than 30 to 50 cues a year maximum) will customize one of his cues by changing decorative items it is really a modified production cue ! the same for any cue made on a production line by a mass cue maker! :cool:

Billy_Bob
04-05-2005, 11:01 AM
I would consider custom anything you can't buy "off-the-shelf". You have had the cue made or modified to your liking in one or more ways.

Other players I know would consider a custom cue, one that had unique art work on the butt (what the cue looks like). 100% made from scratch to your liking.

Does not matter if my cues are custom or not. Just so long as they are the best price I can get along with the specifications I want. If I could buy production cues exactly like I wanted, then I would do so. I have mostly modified production cues in my case. I don't care what they look like except for color.

tonov12
04-05-2005, 11:03 AM
I have to say that IMO, a production cue that has a different color or an added ivory joint doesn't make it a "custom" cue. It makes it a "customized" production cue.

A custom cue is a one of a kind, made to order cue.

Tim-n-NM
04-05-2005, 11:14 AM
Glade one person agrees with me ;)

I also agree with you.

Jack Flanagan
04-05-2005, 11:51 AM
I have to say that IMO, a production cue that has a different color or an added ivory joint doesn't make it a "custom" cue. It makes it a "customized" production cue.

A custom cue is a one of a kind, made to order cue.

could not have said it any better,,,good answer !

MrLucky
04-05-2005, 11:55 AM
could not have said it any better,,,good answer !


ME TOO ! :D

SSach
04-05-2005, 01:00 PM
I have to say that IMO, a production cue that has a different color or an added ivory joint doesn't make it a "custom" cue. It makes it a "customized" production cue.

A custom cue is a one of a kind, made to order cue.

While I respect your opinion, I do disagree with how you seperate "custom" from "customized". I believe they are both the same. If I was to buy a Southwest cue (the "Southwest style 3hi 3low points..etc..), many would say I now own a custom cue. However, this is their style cue. No different than a production company that has a specific model (No I am not saying that Southwest is in the same class as Meucci). Meucci (just using it as an example) is mass produced and could be purchased off the shelf today and Southwest while hard to find could still be picked up today if your price is right.

A custom cue has to be modified to the likes of the end customer. Whether it be a design enhancement or a spec adjustment. For example I took a Old Brunswick Hoppe cue (Production cue) and sent it to Andy Gilbert to taper down to his Standard with a specific weight I wanted. In addition to the retaper of the Hoppe cue, I had him add a Ivory joint and add some inlays. I provided the input and asked him to execute the task handed to him. This is now a Custom cue in ever sense of the word. Now if I sent it to a production company than I would still consider the cue to be Custom.

Jack Madden
04-05-2005, 03:37 PM
Custom - built per players specs
Customized - modified from existing cue
Handmade - hands on building
One of a kind - only one - no duplicates

I just built 20+ cues to take to the Allen Hopkins Expo. I delivered one custom order but all the other cues were all "one of a kind" (only built one and have not built the same cue before and do not intend to build it again), they were all "handmade" (turned those planks of wood myself - of course I used my trusty mill and lathes), were they custom? I built them with the points and inlays that I wanted to build and the bolt, joint, linen, ferrule, and shaft taper were the specs I have started using as my standard based on the majority of the requests I receive for custom orders. I think the buyers felt they bought a cue from a custom cuemaker - the specs were what they wanted, it felt good, it hit good, and they fell in love with the looks of the cue and it is the only John Madden Cue out there like it.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com

bruin70
04-05-2005, 03:46 PM
i tried to come up with a definition that includes and excludes all those who i think are and are not custom cuemakers,,,and the only thing i could come up with are cues that come from a shop of no more than two or three cuemakers, BUT PREFERABLY ONLY ONE.

sounds dumb, i know, but it takes many variables into consideration. for instance,,,,tad and gina's are certainly custom,,,but you essentially have to buy what they make, and you don't have a whole lot of say other than weight, balance, shaft, ferrule, tip, and MAYBE different woods. southwest might be considered custom but they won't use YOUR design,,,only a SW design, and they make too many cues, IMO. but they are more custom than schon.


but for me, a custom cuemaker has to do all of the above plus work with you to create a cue of YOUR design in every aspect of the cue. so,,,who does that leave,,,probably quite a few? of the top tier cuemakers, i'm sure black, joss west, and mottey do.

hadjcues
04-05-2005, 04:13 PM
i tried to come up with a definition that includes and excludes all those who i think are and are not custom cuemakers,,,and the only thing i could come up with are cues that come from a shop of no more than two or three cuemakers, BUT PREFERABLY ONLY ONE.

sounds dumb, i know, but it takes many variables into consideration.

IMO, a custom cuemaker could have his version of a "production cue" is say... a limited ed series, production in a small scale... while production cue companies could also have a " custom cue" if they're willing to have a cue made according to the customers specs.

Now the gray area here is when you say "custom", does it mean the customers specs or the cuemakers' specs?

I build cues, a one man shop... and I have my own specs as for butt dimensions, shaft tapers, type of ferrule etc. which I believe is what will be best for the performance of the cues that I make... now if a customer would desire a different thing from " my or for any other cuemakers specs" (putting into consideration this would alter the way the cuemakers (or my cues) cues would play... how would it be?

ceebee
04-05-2005, 04:40 PM
[QUOTE=hadjcues] IMO, a custom cuemaker is different than a production cuemaker. Adam, Helmstetter, McDermott, Meucci, Schon, Pechauer, Mali & Lucasi are production cue makers. They make zillions of cues each year.

Cuemakers like Barkley, Gilbert, Auerbach, Jerico, Ingram, McDaniel and so on are cue makers that make a lot of cues in a year, but most of which are custom made for their CUSTOMERS (custom-ers).

Myself, I don't care if the cue was made for me or not. If I like the cue & play well with it, I kinda feel like it was made for me (& a bunch of other good players that like the specs of this type of cue...)

bruin70
04-05-2005, 04:54 PM
IMO, a,,,,,,,,,

Now the gray area here is when you say "custom", does it mean the customers specs or the cuemakers' specs?

I build cues, a one man shop... and I have my own specs as for butt dimensions, shaft tapers, type of ferrule etc. which I believe is what will be best for the performance of the cues that I make... now if a customer would desire a different thing from " my or for any other cuemakers specs" (putting into consideration this would alter the way the cuemakers (or my cues) cues would play... how would it be?

i think mcdermott, for instance, making a limited series is STILL a mass cue producer. and besides, a limited series is only limited, not custom.

customer's specs vs. cuemaker specs, is like one deals with when going to gina or tad. you buy what they give you. i have no problem with this grey area because you are accepting their unique style/vision. i can appreciate a cuemaker who has a vision. it's your baby, and special to you.

that being said, from a DESIGN(cosmetic) point of view, most cuemakers rely on simliar designs....i see a lot of "sameness" out there. szamboti designs, for instance, are classic, very popular, and used by almost everyone. therefore, they become a standard and are not unique. if a cuemaker's taste run along these standard lines, i don't see why he can't also cater to his customer's taste,,,just charge more for creating the templates. on the other hand, i perfectly understand why guttierrez ONLY does his designs. why should he make a cue like everyone else,,,,he's gina,,,he's da man! if mcworter doesn't want to make ordinary cues,,,great. he put a lot of time into creating a style.

still,,,,a cuemaker who can make anything you ask is a nice bonus.

jjinfla
04-05-2005, 06:37 PM
A custom cue would be one that is specifically made for one individual with that individual's own specifications. It can be hand made or machine made but it is made for that one person.

Then there are hand made one of a kind cues that are made at the cue makers specifications.

Jake

Bruce S. de Lis
04-05-2005, 07:30 PM
Custom - built per players specs
Customized - modified from existing cue
Handmade - hands on building
One of a kind - only one - no duplicates

I just built 20+ cues to take to the Allen Hopkins Expo. I delivered one custom order but all the other cues were all "one of a kind" (only built one and have not built the same cue before and do not intend to build it again), they were all "handmade" (turned those planks of wood myself - of course I used my trusty mill and lathes), were they custom? I built them with the points and inlays that I wanted to build and the bolt, joint, linen, ferrule, and shaft taper were the specs I have started using as my standard based on the majority of the requests I receive for custom orders. I think the buyers felt they bought a cue from a custom cuemaker - the specs were what they wanted, it felt good, it hit good, and they fell in love with the looks of the cue and it is the only John Madden Cue out there like it.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com


Great Post, and Jack makes GREAT CUES.... ;) I know as I got the Pair Pictured Below by Madden..... ;)

Jon
04-05-2005, 08:45 PM
Just a question. (and probably more than that...)
We all see the phrase; "my/customer specs".
What exactly does that mean?
Most people go on to say, their/customer; weight, balance, shaft taper, ferrule, tip, joint.
But there are so many other things that would make a cue hit, feel and play differently, than the above listed.
One is the taper on the butt, and the butt diameters.
When i get around to finishing up the cues i have hanging around, i'm going to make the butt tapers/diameters the same on each. If someone were to ask me to make him or her a cue, it would be the same. The butt taper/diameters are what they are for a reason.
Doing the a-joint differently can change the way a cue hits/feels/plays.
Even the way the Joint pin is installed can make a difference in how the cue hits/feels/plays.
The way the ferrule is installed can make a difference in how the cue hit's/feels/plays. How many people even ask how the ferrule is installed when they order a cue? And how many people ask that it be done different?

The above-mentioned "specs" (Weight, balance, shaft taper, ferrule, tip, joint) are fine to mess around with (except for the shaft taper, if a builder is known for making a stiff playing cue, don't ask for a whippy shaft...), but some things should be left to the maker to decide.
Myself, and i'm sure that there are others, that would not take an order for a cue that has a design they are uncomfortable with, or they think wouldn't look/work out right, or resemble a popular design of another maker.
Personally, if i were to order a cue from a "Big Name" cuemaker. I would tell them the woods i want, the general basic design (points/inlays/rings, as long as it didn't conflict with what the maker likes to build) and leave the building to the builder. They became "Big Name" cuemakers for a reason.

And don't ask so-and-so to make you a southwest. If you want one, get one, from southwest.
I know a guy that wanted a Scruggs; he went to a local (to him), lesser-known cuemaker and asked him to make him a "Tim Scruggs Cue". The maker had one, and copied the "specs" and held one hell of a tolerance, it looked like a Scruggs, but it wasn't a Scruggs.

Most cue makers are known for something, be it the way they look, the way they play, the way they hit, etc.
I think people should let the maker build it they way the maker thinks it should be done. Come up with a design, pick your weight/balance, discuss the tip/ferrule choice and let the maker do what he is being paid to do.

I apologize for the above rambling,

Jon

hadjcues
04-05-2005, 10:56 PM
Just a question. (and probably more than that...)
We all see the phrase; "my/customer specs".
What exactly does that mean?
Most people go on to say, their/customer; weight, balance, shaft taper, ferrule, tip, joint.
But there are so many other things that would make a cue hit, feel and play differently, than the above listed.
One is the taper on the butt, and the butt diameters.
When i get around to finishing up the cues i have hanging around, i'm going to make the butt tapers/diameters the same on each. If someone were to ask me to make him or her a cue, it would be the same. The butt taper/diameters are what they are for a reason.
Doing the a-joint differently can change the way a cue hits/feels/plays.
Even the way the Joint pin is installed can make a difference in how the cue hits/feels/plays.
The way the ferrule is installed can make a difference in how the cue hit's/feels/plays. How many people even ask how the ferrule is installed when they order a cue? And how many people ask that it be done different?

The above-mentioned "specs" (Weight, balance, shaft taper, ferrule, tip, joint) are fine to mess around with (except for the shaft taper, if a builder is known for making a stiff playing cue, don't ask for a whippy shaft...), but some things should be left to the maker to decide.
Myself, and i'm sure that there are others, that would not take an order for a cue that has a design they are uncomfortable with, or they think wouldn't look/work out right, or resemble a popular design of another maker.
Personally, if i were to order a cue from a "Big Name" cuemaker. I would tell them the woods i want, the general basic design (points/inlays/rings, as long as it didn't conflict with what the maker likes to build) and leave the building to the builder. They became "Big Name" cuemakers for a reason.

And don't ask so-and-so to make you a southwest. If you want one, get one, from southwest.
I know a guy that wanted a Scruggs; he went to a local (to him), lesser-known cuemaker and asked him to make him a "Tim Scruggs Cue". The maker had one, and copied the "specs" and held one hell of a tolerance, it looked like a Scruggs, but it wasn't a Scruggs.

Most cue makers are known for something, be it the way they look, the way they play, the way they hit, etc.
I think people should let the maker build it they way the maker thinks it should be done. Come up with a design, pick your weight/balance, discuss the tip/ferrule choice and let the maker do what he is being paid to do.

I apologize for the above rambling,

Jon

No need to apologize pal... no need :D

Bruce S. de Lis
04-06-2005, 04:18 AM
And don't ask so-and-so to make you a southwest. If you want one, get one, from southwest.


I apologize for the above rambling,

Jon



Right now there are many builders doing SouthWest Styles. Coker, Capone, Phoenix Cue Company, BCM, and a bunch more.

Not a SouthWest, SouthWest Style. Also want a Real SouthWest, guess you will have to wait 7 years I hear.

Imitation is a very High Form of Flattery. Counterfeiting a SouthWest, and calling a Fake a southWest is a Crime... ;)

drivermaker
04-06-2005, 05:53 AM
and people say they are 'production', but talk to Evan and he'll tell you, you know he's got 5 craftsman working there, they make every cue by hand, and are definately not what people consider ''production'...ie McD, Viking, Meucci etc...

my 2c-


So how does McDermott, Viking, Meucci, etc. make their cues...by robotics and an assembly line? Or do they just continually run ads in the classifieds for PT workers at minimum wage?

drivermaker
04-06-2005, 07:05 AM
I personally feel a TRUE CUSTOM Cue is made by a Low Production Cue Maker, and not a High Production Cuemaker like Mucci, or Joss. (not picking on them just useing two makers names)



That has absolutely nothing at all to do with it.

ALL cuemakers are just that...CUEMAKERS.

ALL cuemakers can make a CUSTOM cue, since they all started out the same way when breaking into the business and learning how to do it. Dan Janes and Bob Meucci can not only make a great custom cue, but maybe even better than most out there due to their experience and years making cues.

I think more thought needs to be given to who and what the cuemakers modus operandi normally is as well as the definition of a variety of cuemakers.

The word "custom" is so very loosely thrown around when referring to a cuemaker, especially if you go by the definition of making a cue to a customers specifications and input.

Although there are some super big names in the industry that all of us would cherish owning one of their cues, in the strictest sense they really aren't "custom" cue makers by the above definition.

Some are "SPEC" cuemakers. In other words making cues to their specs with their designs, their big name, and one of a kind. It's kind of like a homebuilder that makes a "spec" home and throws it on the market for sale.

Many cuemakers have a "line" of cues. Well hell, that puts them in the category of being a production cue maker. They're just not putting out the high numbers of the known big name producers. And for financial gain, they're probably also wishing that they had the know-how and facilities to do it big.
Although Jacoby is probably looked at as a "custom" cue maker primarily, I would have to put him in this category.

And I think ALL of them go through various phases annually with the making of their cues that would classify them in any number of ways. For instance, Jack Madden mentioned that he made a bunch of cues to take to VF that were one of a kind. Is Jack Madden a custom cue maker? Sure! Again, so is Dan Janes and Bob Meucci. But that particular BATCH of cues, to me, were one of a kind spec cues.

If I called Jack up and said, "Hey Jack, can you make me a cue that has this that and everything else in it to my specs" and he says "YEP", then for that cue he's a "CUSTOM" cue builder. I think ALL CUEMAKERS change faces, titles, and products on a regular basis...in the strictest sense.

MrLucky
04-06-2005, 08:06 AM
That has absolutely nothing at all to do with it.

ALL cuemakers are just that...CUEMAKERS.

true!

ALL cuemakers can make a CUSTOM cue, since they all started out the same way when breaking into the business and learning how to do it. Dan Janes and Bob Meucci can not only make a great custom cue, but maybe even better than most out there due to their experience and years making cues.

I think more thought needs to be given to who and what the cuemakers modus operandi normally is as well as the definition of a variety of cuemakers.

The word "custom" is so very loosely thrown around when referring to a cuemaker, especially if you go by the definition of making a cue to a customers specifications and input.

true!

Although there are some super big names in the industry that all of us would cherish owning one of their cues, in the strictest sense they really aren't "custom" cue makers by the above definition.

Some are "SPEC" cuemakers. In other words making cues to their specs with their designs, their big name, and one of a kind. It's kind of like a homebuilder that makes a "spec" home and throws it on the market for sale.

Not true! as an architect I must differ with you here!, I design and build a home to my or a clients specs and it is a one of a kind it is a CUSTOM built home ! now similar to McDermott or another cuemaker ... If I am building a tract of homes and I alter the plans of 1 home but maintain the original base design it is not a custom home! spec home in builders language means it is built entirely to the specifications of the client ! though this term is abused by builders just like custom is abused by cuemakers!


Many cuemakers have a "line" of cues. Well hell, that puts them in the category of being a production cue maker. They're just not putting out the high numbers of the known big name producers. And for financial gain, they're probably also wishing that they had the know-how and facilities to do it big.
Although Jacoby is probably looked at as a "custom" cue maker primarily, I would have to put him in this category.

true! I have a Jacoby and it in my opinion is not a custom cue ! I have a SAMSARA also (a quite costly one ) but it is not a custom cue! I have a Palmer made specifically to my uncles wishes and desires for me by Palmer ! by hand! and it is a CUSTOM cue!

And I think ALL of them go through various phases annually with the making of their cues that would classify them in any number of ways. For instance, Jack Madden mentioned that he made a bunch of cues to take to VF that were one of a kind. Is Jack Madden a custom cue maker? Sure! Again, so is Dan Janes and Bob Meucci. But that particular BATCH of cues, to me, were one of a kind spec cues.

true!

If I called Jack up and said, "Hey Jack, can you make me a cue that has this that and everything else in it to my specs" and he says "YEP", then for that cue he's a "CUSTOM" cue builder. I think ALL CUEMAKERS change faces, titles, and products on a regular basis...in the strictest sense.
true! see we can agree on most things at least here anyway, perhaps not all but Hell ! its a start! LOL! :D

drivermaker
04-06-2005, 09:28 AM
true! see we can agree on most things at least here anyway, perhaps not all but Hell ! its a start! LOL! :D


This couldn't possibly be the real you speaking....when did you go back on drugs? It doesn't matter...keep taking them! :D LMAO

MrLucky
04-06-2005, 09:35 AM
This couldn't possibly be the real you speaking....when did you go back on drugs? It doesn't matter...keep taking them! :D LMAO

My drugs now are for Diabetes and a back injury ! I do like a cup of good frersh ground coffee now and then Though ..... I didn't have one this morning perhaps that has to do with my sudden wave of kindness and benevolent behaviour! :D

drivermaker
04-06-2005, 09:42 AM
My drugs now are for Diabetes and a back injury ! I do like a cup of good frersh ground coffee now and then Though ..... I didn't have one this morning perhaps that has to do with my sudden wave of kindness and benevolent behaviour! :D


Aaaaah...I knew something was up. ;)

Jack Madden
04-06-2005, 07:24 PM
Is Jack Madden a custom cue maker? Sure! Again, so is Dan Janes and Bob Meucci. But that particular BATCH of cues, to me, were one of a kind spec cues.

If I called Jack up and said, "Hey Jack, can you make me a cue that has this that and everything else in it to my specs" and he says "YEP", then for that cue he's a "CUSTOM" cue builder. I think ALL CUEMAKERS change faces, titles, and products on a regular basis...in the strictest sense.

And you want the cuemaker to change faces and put out those spec cues. It (at least in my case) lets me be creative and try new designs and new ideas. I have found I love doing recut/remachined/milled points - but I didn't have anyone order one so I had to try it - and after all the work I completed a new spec cue because I nailed it and have kept on making them. Another cue no one would have ordered and I wanted to try was a cue with 6 inlays in the butt - each inlay wrapped 420 degrees (not 360) around the butt. Again, I wasn't going to get someone call up out of the blue and order a cue with a butt inlay of 420 degrees. I took that cue to the Allen Hopkins Expo. So those spec cues in some ways are better than a strictly "custom" - builder will maybe spend twice the time to nail the idea. And I have a lot more ideas I want to try.

Jack Madden
www.johnmaddencues.com

StormHotRod300
04-06-2005, 08:34 PM
Tomorrow i am picking up my Espiritu cue, that i put some money on to hold it, till i could pay it off. Its Brand new, Now i myself did not call up Russ or anything about having this cue made. But one of the pool halls i goto has several Espiritu cues for sale, none of them are the same, some are similar but are a little different from each other.

Now since i didnt have this cue specially made for me, does that mean its not a custom? I dont think so. I have no clue on if there are other cues exactly like mine in the world or not. But that doesnt mean this cue cant be consider'd a custom.

The owner of the Golden 8ball, Fred has a a couple Jurries Cue's one is a jump/break and another is just a regular playing cue, and then just a Jump Cue.

now the Playing cue was made using the butt of a house cue, a New Shaft, and Butt Cap, and has a wrap put on it. And basically untill a few days ago, i thought it was built from scratch, untill i found out different. Now this cue plays like a dream and there is probably one 1 in the world.

The Jump cue, was something he only made 4 of ever. And it is very nice for a jump cue.

The Jump/ Break is the same way, looks very nice, even though its plain. And I believe there was only 2 or 3 of them ever made.

So i guess it just depends on what the person consider's to be a custom cue.

Bruce S. de Lis
04-06-2005, 08:39 PM
Another cue no one would have ordered and I wanted to try was a cue with 6 inlays in the butt - each inlay wrapped 420 degrees (not 360) around the butt. Again, I wasn't going to get someone call up out of the blue and order a cue with a butt inlay of 420 degrees. I took that cue to the Allen Hopkins Expo. So those spec cues in some ways are better than a strictly "custom" - builder will maybe spend twice the time to nail the idea. And I have a lot more ideas I want to try.

Jack Madden
www.johnmaddencues.com

Picture is worth 1,000 Words

http://www.geocities.com/brucesdelis/wirebutt.jpg

Unique Cue Butt ;)

drivermaker
04-07-2005, 05:07 AM
Tomorrow i am picking up my Espiritu cue, that i put some money on to hold it, till i could pay it off. Its Brand new, Now i myself did not call up Russ or anything about having this cue made. But one of the pool halls i goto has several Espiritu cues for sale, none of them are the same, some are similar but are a little different from each other.

Now since i didnt have this cue specially made for me, does that mean its not a custom? I dont think so.


If it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and happier than a pig in shit...then it's a custom cue.

Since I'm not getting those same feelings as you, in my opinion...it ain't. It's a spec cue made by Russ Espiritu that you bought for yourself. And I mean that with no disrespect to Russ and his cues. He makes a nice cue. If you want a custom cue from him, call back and order another one and this time tell him EVERYTHING that you want from weight, balance point, inlays, design, joint type/collar, ferrule, wrap,....the whole Kahuna. Then you'll have a custom cue.

drivermaker
04-07-2005, 06:33 AM
And you want the cuemaker to change faces and put out those spec cues. It (at least in my case) lets me be creative and try new designs and new ideas.


You damn right I want them to and there's nothing wrong with it. It's just business. You can't wait all day for the phone to ring to have someone order a true "custom cue", unless you're one of the guys with a 5-6 year waiting list. And even then, THEY throw in a couple of overruns, "extra" cues, or spec cues with their batch of pure customs and put them up for sale. Why not? IT's MONEY!!

Hey...I'm in the same boat as you. Do you see what my name is? It's Drivermaker...just like Chris Hightower's is Cuemaker. There's no difference other than the product...a cue vs. a golf club.

What amuses me at times is how a number of forum members are so hung up on getting a "custom" cue from a no name cue maker just because the word "custom" is associated with it or on his business card. "CUSTOM CUEMAKER". Big f*#king deal. I'll explain what I mean from a golf standpoint which is no different.

Let's assume that a guy is an avid golfer and wants to learn how to either work on his golf clubs by changing his own grips, or decides that he wants to learn how to build them. He orders some catalogs with components such as shafts, heads, grips, ferrules, and all the tools to do the job. (Like Atlas Billiards) He then gets a VHS tape, CD, or illustrated book that goes through the steps of repairing and building a club. In the process of learning, he destroys a few of his own through screw ups, but after a while he learns how to slap some epoxy together with the various components, install a grip, and before you know it he has his own golf club that he made. He then starts doing some work for friends and before you know it, he wants to open his own shop. So he rents space, buys more equipment, gets his business cards made up along with his storefront sign and they all read the same....
"CUSTOM CLUBS". There you go... the magic word...."CUSTOM".

Big f*#king deal!!! At his point of his business career, he's basically a moron without the slightest indication of how to build a TRUE custom golf club with all of the finite measurements and specs that go into one which MUST BE ATTUNED TO THE GOLFERS SWING THAT HE'S MAKING THE CLUB FOR!! And most of them NEVER get to that point because they aren't professional golfers and have a true understanding of the golf swing to match the club to it.

So, what do you see lined up in his shop for sale...golf clubs that he slapped together in his back room and they're called "custom" golf clubs. Why? Because he's an independent builder of clubs not associated, affiliated, or working directly for a big name production company. WHAT A MISNOMER!
The same thing as in the cue making business. Basically, he IS a PRODUCTION company, just in a much smaller way than the major golf producers. Plus, his products are typically inferior in quality as well as workmanship to the major producers. There's nothing "CUSTOM" at this point. They're a "spec" club which he mass produced to fit his little shop.

Yet...somehow or another, that magic word "CUSTOM" rings through the skulls of buyers and makes them think they're getting a superior product or something over and above what they're getting otherwise from the major names, but ESPECIALLY in pool cues.

In my case, I AM a professional golfer that knows the golf swing and have been for longer that I want to admit. And although drivers aren't the only clubs that I produce, I also change faces in the way that I do business and produce clubs.

When a person calls me up, whether they're a pro or amateur, and says..."I want a driver that's 45 inches long; 460 cc in volume; 9.5 degrees of loft with a 1 degree closed face and a high center of gravity; a shaft that flexes out at 262 cpm's and a cut torque of 3.2 degrees; an overall weight not to exceed 11.5 oz. and a swingweight of D-4; and a grip that's 1/16" over;
THAT IS A "CUSTOM" Club and I am in my CUSTOM DRIVERMAKER MODE.

We can actually go beyond that. Sometimes pro's and amateurs will say, "I need a new driver but I have no idea what would work best". What do we do"? At that point we go a driving range where I can watch his swing and evaluate that first. Then we have him hit all kinds of different clubs with a myriad of spec differences to see what works best. At that point I have to evaluate what I have in front of me and formulate the correct factors into it to make the ultimate weapon for that individual. There aren't a whole hell of a lot of individuals out there that can do that...especailly the vast majority of "CUSTOM" club maker douche bags in their little shops slapping glue.

That is a FITTED CUSTOM CLUB and again, I'm in the CUSTOM clubmaker role.

As of last year, for the last 3 years, I produced the longest hitting driver that held the record at the world finals of the RE/MAX long driving championship that's shown on ESPN and held annually which measured over 415 yards, and I've been able to get a couple of guys to qualify for that highest level of competition.

At other times, I do exactly what Jack Madden did. I play mad scientist and experiment with different shafts, head combinations, etc. and make a whole bunch of new and unique "SPEC" clubs. They're made to certain specifications with the assumption that I'll eventually find the GOLFER who will FIT that particular club and like it. Which means, it is NOT a CUSTOM club, it's a SPEC club that just happened to work for someone.

If I find a particular combination that seems to work for a vast majority of golfers, for whatever reason, I'll mass produce them and sell the club to whoever wants to buy it. That's when I'm in my PRODUCTION company face and that's all those clubs are. But there's not a damn thing wrong with them because they're built with the same care, workmanship, quality, and know-how behind them as a custom or a fitted custom.

But I go through all kinds of phases from custom, to fitted custom, to spec, to production because that's just business and I always strive for ZERO defects in everything produced. So the word "CUSTOM" doesn't mean shit. The only thing that's important is HOW GOOD AND EXPERIENCED IS THE MAN BEHIND THE PRODUCT. All in all I've found major production companies in golf and pool to put out an excellent superior product. You can find it there, or in "CUSTOM", but the word in itself is meaningless if the person behind it really isn't a pro.

In the golf world, I have nothing but the highest praise for the big name production companies. They put out great products. They're for the masses, but they're starting to all get smarter with fitting programs like the PGA pros receive.

If a customer comes to me and it make him feel good to think that he's coming to a "CUSTOM" club maker, then so be it.
In my case, I don't need an ego boost with the word custom, I'm just a Drivermaker and that's what customers will get. A damn good one though...I must admit.

MrLucky
04-07-2005, 07:00 AM
It is the same thing in the home building business ! So many builders like to draw people in using the term CUSTOM builders when in fact all of their homes are spec homes that they have paid an architect to draw up and then they will modify to an limited extent for the buyer! When I go to one of them with my plans drawn by me for myself or a client they quake and shudder ! some of them at least here in GA are so sad they can't even read the specs off the print themselves :confused: but the have the unmitigated audacity to charge premium prices for their homes that they cookie cutter out and then label Custom Built ! :mad:

But as one poster so eloquently stated ..."iCustom is in the eyes of the beholder" ..... :(

Bruce S. de Lis
04-07-2005, 07:28 AM
Custom means just as I said, Custom like the Suit, or DRESS SHIRT that is BUILT to Fit you after a MASTER TAILOR measures you every which way they need to.

Remember many years ago a guy from Hong Kong coming to Pasadena CA. He would set up in a Hotel Suite, and the customers would come. You would pick Fabric, Style, Button Type, and in about 6-8 Weeks your New Suit & Shirts arrived.

They always fix, looked great,and were first class. The price was fair, and the quality for price paid was excellent.

Too me that describes the Custom Experience. Option (2) was to go to Sear, Ward, J.C. Pennies, Dormans, etc. Buy an Off The Rack, and let the Tailor try and make it look like it was built to fit you.

NEVER AS GOOD AS TRUE CUSTOM. But they worked, for those unwilling to go Custom. ;)

drivermaker
04-07-2005, 08:39 AM
Remember many years ago a guy from Hong Kong coming to Pasadena CA. & Shits arrived.



Must have been something the guy from Hong Kong brought over with him.
I've had 'EM pretty bad at times....but I've never worn them. Don't think I want to try.... :D

Jack Flanagan
04-07-2005, 09:10 AM
Must have been something the guy from Hong Kong brought over with him.
I've had 'EM pretty bad at times....but I've never worn them. Don't think I want to try.... :D

LMFAO,,,I needed a good laugh this morning,,,who would have guessed, it would be in this thread,,,thanks !

crawdaddio
04-07-2005, 09:48 AM
.........<snip for size>.......
If a customer comes to me and it make him feel good to think that he's coming to a "CUSTOM" club maker, then so be it.
In my case, I don't need an ego boost with the word custom, I'm just a Drivermaker and that's what customers will get. A damn good one though...I must admit.

This is one of the best analogies to "custom building" I have read. I agree with you entirely. That being said, I think that there are a lot of fantastic cuemakers out there. "Custom" is only a word. If you want a cue made specifically for YOU, then have someone make you one. If you like your cue, and enjoy playing with it, then that's all that matters. I don't care who made it if it hits good.


Quote DM:
".....I always strive for ZERO defects in everything produced. So the word "CUSTOM" doesn't mean shit. The only thing that's important is HOW GOOD AND EXPERIENCED IS THE MAN BEHIND THE PRODUCT."

Tap, tap, my friend......well said.

~DC

hustlefinger
04-07-2005, 09:57 AM
....but I've never worn them. :D

Oh…, sure you have. Every little tyke has, but I’d say they were just standard. Customs, on the other hand, tend to be created much latter in life.

Rick

Cannon
04-07-2005, 10:00 AM
Damn, I feel like I have just been horse whipped. lol. As my name indicates I am a novice at building cues. I guess I will always be a glue slapper because I don't ever intend to call myself a custom cuemaker. While I will strive to build a cue that hits good and don't make ya cringe to look at its ugliness, I will build what I want and hopefully it will fit someone and make them happy. Not badmouthing custom makers in anyway. I bet even the true masters build cues to someones specifications and then have that person to nit pick some insignifigant little thing that wasn't exactly like he envisioned it. I do know that if I continue in this hobby which very well may turn into a passion, as time goes on, I will build a better cue and maybe a notable cue or two. If I get to the point that I think I am really good, (I am a perfectionist) I hope I don't ever get to thinking that I am some kind of god. Hell, I'm gonna go slap some glue.........makes me tingle.

crawdaddio
04-07-2005, 10:03 AM
Damn, I feel like I have just been horse whipped. lol. As my name indicates I am a novice at building cues. I guess I will always be a glue slapper because I don't ever intend to call myself a custom cuemaker. While I will strive to build a cue that hits good and don't make ya cringe to look at its ugliness, I will build what I want and hopefully it will fit someone and make them happy. Not badmouthing custom makers in anyway. I bet even the true masters build cues to someones specifications and then have that person to nit pick some insignifigant little thing that wasn't exactly like he envisioned it. I do know that if I continue in this hobby which very well may turn into a passion, as time goes on, I will build a better cue and maybe a notable cue or two. If I get to the point that I think I am really good, (I am a perfectionist) I hope I don't ever get to thinking that I am some kind of god. Hell, I'm gonna go slap some glue.........makes me tingle.


Slap away....hell, everbody's gotta start somewhere.

~DC

ScottR
04-07-2005, 10:37 AM
You damn right I want them to and there's nothing wrong with it. It's just business. . . . . . .
In my case, I don't need an ego boost with the word custom, I'm just a Drivermaker and that's what customers will get. A damn good one though...I must admit.

Lawdy, DM. Are your fingers tired?? :D

Great post and analogy. Now I understand where you are coming from about using the words "custom cuemaker". Is my six years up yet? I am ready to talk to Joel!! ;)

drivermaker
04-07-2005, 10:49 AM
Oh…, sure you have. Every little tyke has, but I’d say they were just standard. Customs, on the other hand, tend to be created much latter in life.

Rick


LMAO...you're right. I also remember wearing it when I got tackled playing football one time. Do dogs know the difference between standard and custom?

drivermaker
04-07-2005, 10:59 AM
Damn, I feel like I have just been horse whipped. lol. As my name indicates I am a novice at building cues. I guess I will always be a glue slapper because I don't ever intend to call myself a custom cuemaker. While I will strive to build a cue that hits good and don't make ya cringe to look at its ugliness, I will build what I want and hopefully it will fit someone and make them happy. Not badmouthing custom makers in anyway. I bet even the true masters build cues to someones specifications and then have that person to nit pick some insignifigant little thing that wasn't exactly like he envisioned it. I do know that if I continue in this hobby which very well may turn into a passion, as time goes on, I will build a better cue and maybe a notable cue or two. If I get to the point that I think I am really good, (I am a perfectionist) I hope I don't ever get to thinking that I am some kind of god. Hell, I'm gonna go slap some glue.........makes me tingle.


Everyone starts out that way. I did also. Just some words of advice...don't get into the habit of sniffing it too often or rest your head on the top of the work bench to take a snooze without looking first if there's a fresh batch close by. :eek:

Bruce S. de Lis
04-07-2005, 01:29 PM
Must have been something the guy from Hong Kong brought over with him.
I've had 'EM pretty bad at times....but I've never worn them. Don't think I want to try.... :D


drivermaker it is not appreciated when you mis quote me. I did not say.

” Remember many years ago a guy from Hong Kong coming to Pasadena CA. & Shits arrived.”

Plus you humor is not appreciated! I think you are RUDE :mad:

Rackin_Zack
04-07-2005, 03:08 PM
drivermaker it is not appreciated when you mis quote me. I did not say.

” Remember many years ago a guy from Hong Kong coming to Pasadena CA. & Shits arrived.”

Plus you humor is not appreciated! I think you are RUDE :mad:

He didn't misquote you. He took part of the quote out, but you did reference new suits and shits arriving...lol. You made a typo and he was making fun of it. Relax, and if you want to avoid such things in the future, try proofreading!

drivermaker
04-07-2005, 03:22 PM
He didn't misquote you. He took part of the quote out, but you did reference new suits and shits arriving...lol. You made a typo and he was making fun of it. Relax, and if you want to avoid such things in the future, try proofreading!


Thank you Zack...I know you have a good sense of humor. What do you think we should do for Mr. Bruce? Apparently he didn't get any sets of "custom" underwear made from the guy in Hong Kong because his current ones are wadded way to far up into the crack.

Relax Bruce...relax...this isn't serious stuff on here. Have some fun.... :D

Jack Madden
04-07-2005, 06:05 PM
Picture is worth 1,000 Words

http://www.geocities.com/brucesdelis/wirebutt.jpg

Unique Cue Butt ;)

Maybe if I get to be a big name cuemaker, I can name this cue my "black and white pinstriped suit" for my customer turned good friend - BSdl

Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com

StormHotRod300
04-07-2005, 09:27 PM
Drivermaker,

I guess you do have a good point,

I guess if everything in life would go as planned, i would be using a Custom Jacoby like i wanted, but shyt happens in life.

And i had been checking out getting a custom cue done, but, in the end i didnt really feel like waiting 2 or 3 months to get it.

Anyways i am happy with the cue, and i guess thats all that matters.

Now heres the real question, say someone order's a custom cue, puts some $$ down to have it started but, like a month or so down the road, shyt happens and he wont have the $$ to pay for the rest of the cue, so the cue maker desides, to finish the cue and someone else buys the cue. Would it still be consider'd a custom?

drivermaker
04-08-2005, 04:44 AM
Drivermaker,

I guess you do have a good point,

I guess if everything in life would go as planned, i would be using a Custom Jacoby like i wanted, but shyt happens in life.

And i had been checking out getting a custom cue done, but, in the end i didnt really feel like waiting 2 or 3 months to get it.

Anyways i am happy with the cue, and i guess thats all that matters.

Now heres the real question, say someone order's a custom cue, puts some $$ down to have it started but, like a month or so down the road, shyt happens and he wont have the $$ to pay for the rest of the cue, so the cue maker desides, to finish the cue and someone else buys the cue. Would it still be consider'd a custom?


I guess it depends on who was doing the "considering", wouldn't it?

On second thought it WOULD be a custom cue... it would be "custom cue - made originally for StormHotRod300".

It would again be a "personal" custom cue if you ever purchased it from the buyer that purchased it from the cuemaker because you couldn't afford to be the purchaser at the time of no bread. Comprende?

drivermaker
04-08-2005, 04:48 AM
Maybe if I get to be a big name cuemaker, I can name this cue my "black and white pinstriped suit" for my customer turned good friend - BSdl

Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com


Why wait? And you're not even from Hong Kong.... ;)

Bruce S. de Lis
04-08-2005, 01:02 PM
Would be nice if the Thread went back on Subject...... ;)

drivermaker
04-08-2005, 01:15 PM
Would be nice if the Thread went back on Subject...... ;)


When did it leave?...I just answered Stormhotrod300's question 2 posts ago.
I think everyone is talked out.

Bruce S. de Lis
04-08-2005, 03:00 PM
When did it leave?....






If I have to tell you, apparently you do not understand the Terms On Topic, and Off Topic. Topic Related, on Non Topic related...

DaveK
04-08-2005, 03:05 PM
If I have to tell you, apparently you do not understand the Terms On Topic, and Off Topic. Topic Related, on Non Topic related...

Sheesh, the man posted one of the best replies on custom vs. non-custom in this thread, what more do you want ? BTW, nice job editing out that shitty little typo.

Dave

drivermaker
04-08-2005, 04:07 PM
If I have to tell you, apparently you do not understand the Terms On Topic, and Off Topic. Topic Related, on Non Topic related...


What the f*#k is with you man...get those wadded up panties out of your crotch and come down to earth. If you're dissatisfied, come up with something brilliant yourself. ALL THREADS go off in different directions, and many don't even come close to ending up where they started off. You're really starting to wear on me and that is not a good sign. I can see it coming...another guy with a gun and holster that wants to have a shootout with Drivermaker at high noon out in the street. Looks like another customer for Boothill coming up.

vapoolplayer
04-08-2005, 04:09 PM
[QUOTE=drivermaker] I can see it coming...another guy with a gun and holster that wants to have a shootout with Drivermaker at high noon out in the street. QUOTE]

whatcha gotta watch out for, is an asshole like me, shooting you in the back................ :cool:

VAP

Jon
04-08-2005, 04:15 PM
Ok Ok Ok "Children" back it up.
Keep going back.
Back.............................

Now there, that looks like twenty paces to me...
Nobody fires until this can hits the ground...

Jon~*~Throws can~*~

drivermaker
04-08-2005, 04:19 PM
[QUOTE=drivermaker] I can see it coming...another guy with a gun and holster that wants to have a shootout with Drivermaker at high noon out in the street. QUOTE]

whatcha gotta watch out for, is an asshole like me, shooting you in the back................ :cool:

VAP


I misjudged that one...I was counting on you to cover my back. :(

Bruce S. de Lis
04-08-2005, 06:57 PM
ALL THREADS go off in different directions, and many don't even come close to ending up where they started off.


Maybe it would be nice to stay on topic, and if a new topic need to be started. Than start a new thread. Could be interesting. :p

drivermaker
04-09-2005, 05:46 AM
Maybe it would be nice to stay on topic, and if a new topic need to be started. Than start a new thread. Could be interesting. :p


There is a specific flame war thread or two out there. Wanna take a little stroll and join me at that site? It'll free this one up for anyone else that wants to "stay on topic". Bruce...if you're ever going to start another thread...expect the worst to happen. They just go off in all directions.

Hell, I started a thread on jump cues this week and SPECIFICALLY requested that NO input was given for jump/break combos. Well, guess what...toward the end, J/B combos started dominating the conversation. So that's just life...wtf. Don't be such a control freak, you'll have more fun and sometimes a thread turns out a lot better when individual minds do roam....and sometimes not.

We're also a big bunch or jerkoffs just like in a pool room or playground. If it's too much for your ego to be at the butt end of a joke and get screwed around with, maybe this place isn't for you. There are more tame forums out there. I also suggest that you learn how to screw with people yourself and jerk their chain. Everyone enjoys a good laugh. Nothing worse that someone walking around with a stick up their ass.

I'd say all in all this custom thread was loaded with info. Wanna see how exciting it is if I go back and delete ALL of MY posts in it? I'll do it if you like.........I'll be sure to leave the one's where I razzed you about the "shits" though.

Bruce S. de Lis
04-09-2005, 08:05 AM
Well drivermaker I started a thread.

http://www.azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=11644

The star date was on April Fools Day with the Title of “PLEASE SHARE YOUR SECRETS”

It too got bamboozled, but I Chalked it up to people thinking it was a JOKE.

It was no started as a Joke thought I might get a Tip, or Two. ;)

drivermaker
04-09-2005, 08:18 AM
Well drivermaker I started a thread.

http://www.azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=11644

The star date was on April Fools Day with the Title of “PLEASE SHARE YOUR SECRETS”

It too got bamboozled, but I Chalked it up to people thinking it was a JOKE.

It was no started as a Joke thought I might get a Tip, or Two. ;)


Hey...somebody enjoyed the helll out of it. The thread ended up getting 3 pages worth of posts and 1,149 views!! That's a lot of action. All in all you might not have gotten what you wanted, but the troops sure had fun. It ended up being a successful thread.

vapoolplayer
04-10-2005, 12:53 PM
I misjudged that one...I was counting on you to cover my back. :(

well that was the plan............turns out i'm a bad shot............ :D

VAP

Bruce S. de Lis
04-11-2005, 09:50 AM
Hey...somebody enjoyed the helll out of it. The thread ended up getting 3 pages worth of posts and 1,149 views!! That's a lot of action. All in all you might not have gotten what you wanted, but the troops sure had fun. It ended up being a successful thread.

Like I said I started that THREAD on the Wrong Day. April fool Day, should have waited until April Second. Maybe the Thread would have been more Sharing of Tips & Tricks. ;)