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stolz2
04-06-2005, 01:28 AM
Just wanted to gain some knowledge. When using inside english on a cut shot, when i mis the shot it always seems to be high on the rail. Is this mainly due to deflection or mainly to due to throw, im sure both have a factor but what one is the biggest cause for the missed shot? It seems to me its deflection... but i dont have a problem judging this deflection when cutting balls in with outside english. So I just wanted to hear some thoughts on this.

Mack

vapoolplayer
04-06-2005, 01:32 AM
Just wanted to gain some knowledge. When using inside english on a cut shot, when i mis the shot it always seems to be high on the rail. Is this mainly due to deflection or mainly to due to throw, im sure both have a factor but what one is the biggest cause for the missed shot? It seems to me its deflection... but i dont have a problem judging this deflection when cutting balls in with outside english. So I just wanted to hear some thoughts on this.

Mack

what do you mean by "high on the rail"?

its probably 6 of one and half dozen of the other. both come into play. in general people have more problems using inside english than outside.

set the same shots you're missing up and shoot them, until you understand the throw, curve, and squirt/deflection.

VAP

Hal
04-06-2005, 02:30 AM
http://www.azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=11742

Jude Rosenstock
04-06-2005, 09:04 AM
Just wanted to gain some knowledge. When using inside english on a cut shot, when i mis the shot it always seems to be high on the rail. Is this mainly due to deflection or mainly to due to throw, im sure both have a factor but what one is the biggest cause for the missed shot? It seems to me its deflection... but i dont have a problem judging this deflection when cutting balls in with outside english. So I just wanted to hear some thoughts on this.

Mack


You're thinking too much. Although every good player knows about throw, none actually make a conscious compensation for it. Without making any calculations, aim for the point on the object ball that feels most comfortable to your mind. I'm not saying 'logical' but comfortable. Understand that you may miss the first few times but that the more you see it, the more comfortable you'll get. I assure you, eventually they start dropping. Using inside-english can be very difficult because you can't help but notice the cue-stick appears to be pointed in a completely wrong direction. It may take some time but follow what I say and eventually, using english will become a strength in your game.

AceHigh
04-06-2005, 09:22 AM
Here is how I am able to make shots using various kinds of english. When using outside, I hit the object ball a little more full. When using inside, I hit the object ball a little more thin. Just remember that, and you'll be fine.

Williebetmore
04-06-2005, 09:54 AM
Just wanted to gain some knowledge. When using inside english on a cut shot, when i mis the shot it always seems to be high on the rail. Is this mainly due to deflection or mainly to due to throw, im sure both have a factor but what one is the biggest cause for the missed shot? It seems to me its deflection... but i dont have a problem judging this deflection when cutting balls in with outside english. So I just wanted to hear some thoughts on this.

Mack

Mack,
I think it is a little more complicated. Below is a re-post of my thoughts on developing a mastery of inside and outside English; considering squirt/curve/throw at soft, medium, and hard speeds. They are all a little different.

OK, here it is. I'm not a world-beater, but if someone had explained this to me 35 years ago I would be giving Efren the 7. If you want to master English (and you MUST if you want to be a top player), then you have to practice extensively until it becomes natural. My practice routine below is how I learned, takes 3-6 months. The only type of English I use is parallel English (with some exceptions I won't go into here) - where the cue is always parallel to the intended line of travel of the cue ball.

Set up an object ball about 2 feet from a corner pocket. Set up the cue ball about 2 feet away from the object ball, so that you have a cut shot. Now shoot the shot 5 times at a slow to medium speed with a small amount of inside English, and 5 times with outside English. Then shoot 5 times with a hard hit with inside, and 5 hard hits with outside. Do this at about a 20 degree cut angle, then a 45 degree cut angle, then a 65 degree cut angle. Do these shots every day for 2-3 months and you will be tremendously improved. Spend another 2 or 3 months using radical inside and outside (cueing as close to the edge of the cue ball as possible) English and you are ready for Derby City.

What you will find is that when you aim the cue ball, you will then move your body and cue an inch or so to the right or left so that the cue is parallel to your initial setup. When you stroke the cue ball with right English, it will initially: squirt to the left, then curve to the right, then "throw" the object ball to the left. The harder you hit the cueball, the more it squirts, the less it curves, and the less it throws the object ball. The further you cue towards the edge of the cue ball, the more it squirts, the more it curves, and the more it throws. The softer you hit the cue ball, the less it squirts, the more it curves, and the more it throws the object ball. The fuller the cue ball contacts the object ball the more throw occurs; the thinner the cue ball cuts the object ball the less throw occurs.

Knowing these principles, you will gradually be able to adjust your aim to allow for these factors, and to allow for the deflection characteristics of your cue (cues DIFFER from one another).

For me, with a low deflection Predator cue, here is the way I end up aiming:

With mild and moderate inside English and a soft to medium hit, I aim to allow 1" of squirt (in other words, I aim using center ball along a path one inch to the left or right of the path I would normally use to pocket the ball, then additionally move a little to the left or right of the center of the cue ball to move the cue parallel to this new path) and hit just hard enough that the curve of the cueball does not occur (its probably better if you can visualize this in your head and just set up slightly to the side of the center ball line, so you don't have to move once you get into your stance). With very heavy inside English I allow for about 2" of squirt (a little more if I'm hitting it very hard).

With outside English, there is much less difficulty because the squirt and throw tend to cancel each other out, as long as you hit hard enough to avoid cue ball curve. At soft speeds, the throw of the object ball is much more pronounced. Therefore at any medium to firm speed, my aim when using outside English is EXACTLY THE SAME as with no English at all (in other words the cue is parallel to the path I would use with no English, just a little to the left or a little to the right) - no matter how far from the center of the cue ball I choose to cue. If I am going to hit the shot slow with outside, I allow for a fuller hit, because the throw of the object ball is very pronounced.

This system may be totally different for your cue, but at least you have some principles to work with to develop your system - it takes practice, its definitely a little complex and confusing, but its worth it when you want to amaze your friends.

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TATE
04-06-2005, 09:54 AM
Just wanted to gain some knowledge. When using inside english on a cut shot, when i mis the shot it always seems to be high on the rail. Is this mainly due to deflection or mainly to due to throw, im sure both have a factor but what one is the biggest cause for the missed shot? It seems to me its deflection... but i dont have a problem judging this deflection when cutting balls in with outside english. So I just wanted to hear some thoughts on this.

Mack

Mack,

If you're only catching a tiny piece of the ball, a thin cut, the spin throw has little to do with it. It's better not to adjust at all for spin throw on thin cuts.

Chances are you are swerving the cue ball, and this is throwing you off just enough - there is no room for error on thin cuts. Try leveling the cue - don't hit "down" on the cueball on these shots.

All thin cut shots should be considered difficult. Any player, at any time, can miss a thin cut shot regardless of english. They are difficult to aim and there is a hairline room for error. Because the cue ball is usually traveling on thin cuts, a player devotes too much concentration on controlling the cue ball.

The only way to get good at thin cuts is to practice them. best to practice them first with center ball but make the shots really difficult. I would say, practice hitting thin cuts soft and easy centerball and aim just as you would for any other shot. Practice cutting the ball as thin as possible to develop a feel for just nicking the object ball. There is a maximium cut, and you can develop a feel for it. Then work your way into the thicker cuts and you will be amazed at how much better you will hit them. I actually find extreme cuts easier because I can just feel the shot - I don't have to really aim them.

Once you can make the thin cuts center ball from all over the table, practice with both inside and outside. This will make you a much better player. Remeber to make it easier by not swerving the cueball.

Chris

Billy_Bob
04-06-2005, 09:58 AM
Experiment...

Set up the shot, then place stickers under the balls or mark spots with white blackboard chalk.

Next line up your cue stick for the shot for a dead center hit, then mark with chalk or a sticker where the back end of the cue is. *Remove* the object ball and shoot just the cue ball about 5 times lining up the shot the same each time. Note where the cue ball hits the rail.

Next shoot 5 more shots with inside english as you would normally aim and note where the cue ball hits the rail. If the cue ball is hitting a different spot on the rail when you are using english, then that is one problem to work on.

Next place the cue ball and object ball on the spots, shoot 5 shots with inside english, 5 shots with outside english, and 5 shots with a center hit. Note where the object ball goes with each type of shot.

Now placing the balls in the same exact spots, use trial and error to figure out how you need to aim using inside english, a center hit, and outside english. Probably 3 different aims.

Different cue sticks deflect the cue ball differently. So if learning how to aim when using english on cut shots, it is probably a good idea to always use the same cue stick and tip radius (dime/nickel).

If the cue ball is deflecting (squirt), note that it will be a little off at a short distance, and quite a bit off at a longer distance. So using english can be a nightmare so far as aiming and taking into consideration how far the shot is and how much off the cue ball will be.

Hint: You may be able to place your bridge hand about 9 inches back from the tip of your cue, aim dead center, then pivot your back hand to apply english - then get the cue ball to go to the same spot as a dead center hit.

sjm
04-06-2005, 03:50 PM
The harder you hit the cueball, the more it squirts, the less it curves, and the less it throws the object ball. The further you cue towards the edge of the cue ball, the more it squirts, the more it curves, and the more it throws. The softer you hit the cue ball, the less it squirts, the more it curves, and the more it throws the object ball. The fuller the cue ball contacts the object ball the more throw occurs; the thinner the cue ball cuts the object ball the less throw occurs.

Knowing these principles, you will gradually be able to adjust your aim to allow for these factors, and to allow for the deflection characteristics of your cue (cues DIFFER from one another).

Bravo, Willie. To our initial poster, the moral of the story is that you'll need to vary your speeds and amounts of english as you try to master the use of inisde english.

As I've mentioned once before on the forum, here's a shot I discussed with Mizerak over twenty years ago. I mentioned to him that I had a little trouble with the straight pool break shot below, which has to be hit with high speed inside english. I told him I often overcut the ball, and he explained that I wasn't compensating enough for the squirt. In fact, if you hit this shot with maximum inside and high speed, you must aim for an undercut, whereas most of us are accustomed to aiming for an overcut when we cut a ball in with inside.

LastTwo
04-06-2005, 04:59 PM
Just wanted to gain some knowledge. When using inside english on a cut shot, when i mis the shot it always seems to be high on the rail. Is this mainly due to deflection or mainly to due to throw, im sure both have a factor but what one is the biggest cause for the missed shot? It seems to me its deflection... but i dont have a problem judging this deflection when cutting balls in with outside english. So I just wanted to hear some thoughts on this.

Mack

There are so many reasons for a missed shot. Deflection, swerve, and throw are just three of the reasons. Some other reasons are not aiming correctly, improper alignment, a crooked stroke, shifting your weight, jumping up, and maybe 10 other reasons that I can't think of.

Kevin
04-06-2005, 05:19 PM
One of the hoariest and hairiest topics ever brought up. All posts so far have good advice, except the advice to avoid sidespin whenever possible, yet, but wait for it!

Once had a tournament opponent who noted I really wasn't comfortable in the position he gave me after a safety.

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So the B*stard (edit, good, attentive player) did it again, 2 fouls, needless to say, lost that game and subsequently the match.

Peeved, I took that situation to the practice table, and determined the best shot for me was offensive, because there was simply no way to control the cueball after hitting the one-ball (forgive the rest of the ball layouts, only the cue and 1-ball are important here). On the rail, jacked up, aiming down on the cueball against the rail with left spin, I had to calculate the full-table curve/masse effect. Turns out for me/my stroke, aiming 1.5 balls to the right of the edge of the 1-ball does the trick, slicing the 1 into the top left pocket and spinning the cue probably 3-4 rails speed, but hey any position after getting out of that difficulty is welcome!

Two other eye-opener shots. The foot cushion spin shot:

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max left spin, cutting to pocket A. With my Predator 314 shaft, I need to aim about 3/4 full of the one ball towards pocket A to get the cue ball deflecting right then hitting the cushion and spinning into the ball to cut it left. Keep your speed/spin consistent and only change the aiming point if you want to learn this shot. Teaching a beginner about English, I instead have them try and hit the ball dead center, using heavy sidespin, then they "get the point" that point of aim and point of delivery over 6 diamonds travel with sidespin are two very different things.

How many times have you missed position on "easy" balls hanging in the corner pocket when spinning the cueball? Not accounting for deflection properly will cause you to hit the ball too thick/thin, leading to way comical/homicidal tendencies regarding speed control.

Rod
04-06-2005, 07:31 PM
Just wanted to gain some knowledge. When using inside english on a cut shot, when i mis the shot it always seems to be high on the rail. Is this mainly due to deflection or mainly to due to throw, im sure both have a factor but what one is the biggest cause for the missed shot? It seems to me its deflection... but i dont have a problem judging this deflection when cutting balls in with outside english. So I just wanted to hear some thoughts on this.

Mack

A short answer is deflection. Add swerve and they react the same given the same stroke. Throw is a minor factor. You are overcutting the ball? The answer is both inside and outside react the same but different directions. Many players are comfortable with outside. If you use the same stroke, speed, tip offset etc, either one makes the ball. Your cue is not pointed at the contact point (if you will) no matter which english is used.

Practice more inside shots and it will become much easier. Your just not use to using inside, it will become just as normal as outside. BTW practice from both sides of the table.

Rod