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Superstroke
04-06-2005, 09:28 AM
Interesting issue came up ther other night in conversation and some people WENT OFF!

Would there be as much animosity from people, and dislike for the UPA and Charlie Williams, if he wasn't a player? ASIDE from the whole UPA Scheduling and sanctioning issues.

Let me explain.

I know tons of serious pool players. One factor that is pretty consistent, is that not one of them would be willing to let ANOTHER pool player tell them what to do. Where and when to play is always THEIR decision. It's an ego thing.

Only time i see exceptions, is if someone else puts up cash, and they are the horse.

Who owns the WPBA?
Imagine if you will, if it was a PLAYER. Not Allison Fisher, but some second rate player.
Imagine if that player got to pick their own friends, and form a little club that disciminated against other more talented players, like some drama playing out from high school.

I'm sure the some women would be pissed. Especially if the "clique" and their organization were commited to promoting the clique's agenda and handing out favors to the group of friends when it comes to selecting people for certain events.

I think that that is at least part of the problem that i see with the UPA.
If the UPA were an organization where the people who owned it were stickly business people, then i don't think that their would be as much controversy.

The fact that a pool player owns it, is i think, what might be a part of the problem.

If Charlie DIDN'T play, or didn't benefit as a POOL PLAYER from his organization, then i think that the majority of the people wouldn't have a problem with it. He has in fact become, a pool player that can tell other pool players what they can and cannot do. Which i'm sure rubs tons of people the wrong way. Especially with how he approaches things.

Just like the whole sanctioning issue. Who wants to put in money to promote an event, just to sanction it, and have the UPA come in and set up their own rules and guidlines, and basically take over. If i were a promoter, i'd tell them to drop dead, and i'm sure that this is the reason certain regional tours have always told the UPA....NO! Why take a good thing, and risk messing it up.

Take a look at Hopkins. When he promotes, he is just that, a promoter. I don't see him entering himself in the tournament to play. He just runs it.
When he decides to play, then he's a player, but i rarely have seen him do both.
Where Charlie, not only promotes the tournament, but he plays in them as well.
Isn't this a sort of conflict of interest? (if your thinking Zuglan or Kennedy, it's not the same thing)

Imagine being in a match with him, and getting in a confrontation. (foul or the rack or something) Wouldn't you wonder if that somehow was gonna cost you in the long run? Like if for some reason, you were discriminated against in the selection process or something.

Are there elections for the UPA board like the WPBA??? Or are they just hand picked from his friends? If they are hand picked, how can that possibly serve the interests of the players, if the players didn't elect them.

I'm just wondering if Charlie Williams was NEVER a pool player, and was devoting his time and energy fully to being a promoter, would people still have the same feelings about his organizations.
I mean...we all know that the presidency of the UPA and Dragon Promotions not being him anymore is a joke to all of us.
He still has control of those organizations despite what people might want us to think. I'm sure that if he wanted it, those presidents are his puppets if the desire is there.

opinions please
Just wondering if others are rubbed the wrong way by this.

Superstroke

Johnny "V"
04-06-2005, 11:11 AM
I would say that was originally part of the problem. I am assuming that pretty much any event that Charlie played in became a UPA points event. Thus he was (and still is) at the top of the seeding chart. (thats how you get to play in the Mosconi cup when you are ranked 22nd). Yes Charlie did play well in the cup but ranking wise he did not belong there. I have called the UPA and emailed them and still have not received a breakdown of how the points were awarded so he could be ranked 3rd on the seeding chart.

Now the issues with scheduling. Do you think that it is a coincidence that even though Charlie is not owner/operator of Dragon Promotions or the UPA that both groups have scheduling conflicts with other tournaments? If scheduling is such a problem how come DP or the UPA don't conflict? It is a bullying technique that will eventually do them in. None of the players will ever say anything negative about this mostly because of the Code of conduct under Unprofessional Manner....
"Making slanderous comments" and "(d) Conducting themselves in such a manner as to adversely impact or otherwise injure the reputation(s) of the UPA or its Members;" kinda goes against that old Freedom of Speech thing. I would bet soon the rules of
"Abusing the privileges extended to them, including by way of example, playing for profit without invitation in any pool room not sanctioned by the UPA;" will be implimented which means that the DCC and Berrys Tournies will eventually just disappear because they are not willing to kiss the UPA's proverbial buttocks.

It's all too bad,

JV<---- Guesses he could never be a member of the UPA

Superstroke
04-06-2005, 12:53 PM
Yeah. There are those who say that he started the whole UPA thing, NOT to better pool, but to better his position in the pool world. I know lots of them.

The whole conflicting DP and UPA thing is a very valid point, but lets not forget that despite having the credentials as business people.
Jenny and Steve from DP are both Charlies friends. Of course they are going to do everything in their power to make him happy. JOB SECURITY.

Not to take anything from Charlies game, cause he's demonstrated that he has ability. Did he ever win anything before the UPA was created?

I'm not sure if the Joss he won was before or after the UPA was created.
I know most of what he's done was after the UPA was in action.

Must be easier to play if your promoting the event, and everyones dues, and ticket sales and money made off of other pool players is paying your way.
Heck, if every tournament you showed up at, made you money before you even picked up a cue, you'd be playing in everything.

and WHOA if someone beat you, or argued to get their paycheck cause they didn't want to be stuck a few more days in hotel fees and wanted to leave right away.
...you just throw them out of your club.

Be interesting to see if any pool players or even PROS are willing to discuss this in the open, KNOWING that Steve and Jenny from DP as well as Charlie browse these forums.

Superstroke

Kevin
04-06-2005, 02:21 PM
I'll go off topic and back to pool. I've met and played Charlie twice, seems nice enough in person to me.

But I cannot fathom his pool game.

98mph StrokeStrokeStrokeStrokeStrokeStrokeStrokeKERBLAMM O!

I can only surmise he
a) dreams he has immortal 100% deadly accuracy
b) is trying to get himself in stroke
c) is playing power pool to intimidate me (in my dreams)

I'm sadly too old and having started with 14-1 instead of 9-ball I never developed that WHAP! the back of the pocket accuracy game he plays, I prefer the softer touch/pocket speed "to each shot it's proper speed and need for position" type power. His energy level on each shot seems more geared to Karate and playing pool on a soccer-sized table than just a little 9-footer. But thats just my opinion, whatever works for you.

Back to your regularly scheduled flame wars. ;)

Jude Rosenstock
04-06-2005, 03:04 PM
Interesting issue came up ther other night in conversation and some people WENT OFF!

Would there be as much animosity from people, and dislike for the UPA and Charlie Williams, if he wasn't a player? ASIDE from the whole UPA Scheduling and sanctioning issues.

Let me explain.

I know tons of serious pool players. One factor that is pretty consistent, is that not one of them would be willing to let ANOTHER pool player tell them what to do. Where and when to play is always THEIR decision. It's an ego thing.

Only time i see exceptions, is if someone else puts up cash, and they are the horse.

Who owns the WPBA?
Imagine if you will, if it was a PLAYER. Not Allison Fisher, but some second rate player.
Imagine if that player got to pick their own friends, and form a little club that disciminated against other more talented players, like some drama playing out from high school.

I'm sure the some women would be pissed. Especially if the "clique" and their organization were commited to promoting the clique's agenda and handing out favors to the group of friends when it comes to selecting people for certain events.

I think that that is at least part of the problem that i see with the UPA.
If the UPA were an organization where the people who owned it were stickly business people, then i don't think that their would be as much controversy.

The fact that a pool player owns it, is i think, what might be a part of the problem.

If Charlie DIDN'T play, or didn't benefit as a POOL PLAYER from his organization, then i think that the majority of the people wouldn't have a problem with it. He has in fact become, a pool player that can tell other pool players what they can and cannot do. Which i'm sure rubs tons of people the wrong way. Especially with how he approaches things.

Just like the whole sanctioning issue. Who wants to put in money to promote an event, just to sanction it, and have the UPA come in and set up their own rules and guidlines, and basically take over. If i were a promoter, i'd tell them to drop dead, and i'm sure that this is the reason certain regional tours have always told the UPA....NO! Why take a good thing, and risk messing it up.

Take a look at Hopkins. When he promotes, he is just that, a promoter. I don't see him entering himself in the tournament to play. He just runs it.
When he decides to play, then he's a player, but i rarely have seen him do both.
Where Charlie, not only promotes the tournament, but he plays in them as well.
Isn't this a sort of conflict of interest? (if your thinking Zuglan or Kennedy, it's not the same thing)

Imagine being in a match with him, and getting in a confrontation. (foul or the rack or something) Wouldn't you wonder if that somehow was gonna cost you in the long run? Like if for some reason, you were discriminated against in the selection process or something.

Are there elections for the UPA board like the WPBA??? Or are they just hand picked from his friends? If they are hand picked, how can that possibly serve the interests of the players, if the players didn't elect them.

I'm just wondering if Charlie Williams was NEVER a pool player, and was devoting his time and energy fully to being a promoter, would people still have the same feelings about his organizations.
I mean...we all know that the presidency of the UPA and Dragon Promotions not being him anymore is a joke to all of us.
He still has control of those organizations despite what people might want us to think. I'm sure that if he wanted it, those presidents are his puppets if the desire is there.

opinions please
Just wondering if others are rubbed the wrong way by this.

Superstroke



I think you make some excellent points. I'm not saying the UPA couldn't be successful as it stands. Time will tell. What I can say is that in an ideal world, players would be completely seperate from organizers/promoters. Unfortunately, the people who are most interested in promoting professional pool are players themselves. The only way an organization is going to come in and sweep pool off its feet is when it can be proven that there is money to be made by doing so.

Johnnyt
04-06-2005, 04:32 PM
Tommy Kennedy runs the SE Opens and plays and wins a good % of them. I never heard anyone say neg things about him. Johnnyt

PS Oh one room owner said he charged too much to put the tourny on lol.

sjm
04-06-2005, 04:50 PM
I truly believe that Charlie Williams has the best interests of pool at heart. I also believe that he is a diligent visionary in pool today.

It's true that he has bettered his own position in his sport but he has done so with hard work and by creating income earning opportunities for his fellow pros.

I think the point that it's hard for a player to run an organization is valid, but the truth is that the last time the pros gave the helm to an independent businessman, one named Don Mackey, they got burned. Perhaps it explains their desire to run the show themselves.

Charlie and every pro player before him that ran or tried to run a tour had a conflict of interest, but each did his best to keep it in check.

In short, not only is Charlie not the problem, but he's pool's best shot at moving forward. The pros need to get behind him, though, if they wish to avoid undermining his efforts, and a few need to start taking their sport and themselves seriously.

BlowFish
04-06-2005, 06:36 PM
No matter what tour, league, business, work, etc. you go into, there will be someone who will not be satisfied with it. And history will just takes it course and will judge it's success and/or failure.

Look for something you'll like or be satisfied with and support it whole heartedly.

Peace.