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bfdlad
10-25-2008, 12:02 PM
I guess the rule or desision to not let the Phillipinos play each other in the early rounds payed off for someone. Looks like there could be 2 in the US Open finals. So I am obviously biased but still don't get why it happened and seems like it worked out the way the powers wanted it to.
I do not want to take anything away from the players as they have to play very well to get to this point but would there have been a different outcome if that rule was not there? Thats my question.

gopi-1
10-25-2008, 12:07 PM
I guess the rule or desision to not let the Phillipinos play each other in the early rounds payed off for someone. Looks like there could be 2 in the US Open finals. So I am obviously biased but still don't get why it happened and seems like it worked out the way the powers wanted it to.
I do not want to take anything away from the players as they have to play very well to get to this point but would there have been a different outcome if that rule was not there? Thats my question.



All of the Filipinos who have a great chance to win the whole thing were all bunched up in 1 bracket, except for Parica. If they were spread evenly in all of the 4 brackets, who knows? It could've been worse, like 4 out 4 for the semifinals, I'm not saying that this could happen, but please give credit where credit is due...

f210
10-25-2008, 12:10 PM
I guess the rule or desision to not let the Phillipinos play each other in the early rounds payed off for someone. Looks like there could be 2 in the US Open finals. So I am obviously biased but still don't get why it happened and seems like it worked out the way the powers wanted it to.
I do not want to take anything away from the players as they have to play very well to get to this point but would there have been a different outcome if that rule was not there? Thats my question.

What are you talking about? The fact that 4 of the top Filipinos were grouped together in one group (Bustamante, Kiamco, Corteza and Alcano) and had to knock each other out is not an advantage over the rest of the field. Just give credit where credit is due. Alcano and Kiamco are playing the best pool of their lives and they should be commended for it.

Furthermore, I was not aware there was a rule or 'desision' to not let the Filipinos play each other in the first rounds. Where did you get that info? All the while I thought they had to draw to determine what brackets the players will belong.

bfdlad
10-25-2008, 12:12 PM
All of the Filipinos who have a great chance to win the whole thing were all bunched up in 1 bracket, except for Parica. If they were spread evenly in all of the 4 brackets, who knows? It could've been worse, like 4 out 4 for the semifinals, I'm not saying that this could happen, but please give credit where credit is due...
I did give credit to them for having to play VERY well regardless of anything.

tpdtom
10-25-2008, 12:13 PM
Well, I am not biased, nor am I aware of the rule or decision that you are speaking of. Two Americans, or Brits, or Germans could have found themselves matched up against each other couldn't they ? Isn't it a blind draw ? Any politics or favoritism is unacceptable. This should be international competition at it's finest, just like we would expect and demand if we are over in their country. Please explain more about what happened.

Two Filipinos did in fact end up in the semi-finals, and it may be that two Filipinos will play in the finals. So what ? The Filipinos are setting the worldwide standard for excellence in pool. My hats off to them...Tom

bfdlad
10-25-2008, 12:16 PM
What are you talking about? The fact that 4 of the top Filipinos were grouped together in one group (Bustamante, Kiamco, Corteza and Alcano) and had to knock each other out is not an advantage over the rest of the field. Just give credit where credit is due. Alcano and Kiamco are playing the best pool of their lives and they should be commended for it.

Furthermore, I was not aware there was a rule or 'desision' to not let the Filipinos play each other in the first rounds. Where did you get that info? All the while I thought they had to draw to determine what brackets the players will belong.
See thats where you are wrong, they said that a nation of 8 or more would be separated so they didn't all end up playing each other in the first rounds after traveling so far. There was another thread that went over that ruling and many were confused since the USA Players or anyone else who go over there and travel long distance are not given that. Again, these guys are GREAT Players and deserve the credit for getting there. Just an obserbvation from a previous thread

bfdlad
10-25-2008, 12:17 PM
Well, I am not biased, nor am I aware of the rule or decision that you are speaking of. Two Americans, or Brits, or Germans could have found themselves matched up against each other couldn't they ? Isn't it a blind draw ? Any politics or favoritism is unacceptable. This should be international competition at it's finest, just like we would expect and demand if we are over in their country. Please explain more about what happened.

Two Filipinos did in fact end up in the semi-finals, and it may be that two Filipinos will play in the finals. So what ? The Filipinos are setting the worldwide standard for excellence in pool. My hats off to them...Tom
There was a decision that was made that theydid the seeding and the international players with more than 8 players from each country would be separated up. Its just the way it was.

f210
10-25-2008, 12:20 PM
See thats where you are wrong, they said that a nation of 8 or more would be separated so they didn't all end up playing each other in the first rounds after traveling so far. There was another thread that went over that ruling and many were confused since the USA Players or anyone else who go over there and travel long distance are not given that. Again, these guys are GREAT Players and deserve the credit for getting there. Just an obserbvation from a previous thread

Then if that is the case, why did they bunch up 4 of the top 8 Filipino players in one bracket? Bracket 3 did not even have a single Filipino so your presumption does not hold any water and does not make any sense. If Corteza and Bustamante were in brackets 1, 2 or 3, then you might even find more cause for complaint because we might have 3 or 4 Filipinos in the last 4.

bfdlad
10-25-2008, 12:23 PM
Its not a presumption, look into it. Don't take my word for it. How many How many played each other in the first round? I don;'t know the answer to my own question I just know that they manouvered things around.

Sweet Marissa
10-25-2008, 12:24 PM
See thats where you are wrong, they said that a nation of 8 or more would be separated so they didn't all end up playing each other in the first rounds after traveling so far. There was another thread that went over that ruling and many were confused since the USA Players or anyone else who go over there and travel long distance are not given that. Again, these guys are GREAT Players and deserve the credit for getting there. Just an obserbvation from a previous thread
That's a ridiculous rule and discriminatory. That's like saying eight white people travelling from Canada shouldn't play each other, either.

bfdlad
10-25-2008, 12:25 PM
That's a ridiculous rule and discriminatory. That's like saying eight white people travelling from Canada shouldn't play each other, either.
Thats what I thought at the very beginning when I head about it. There is a thread out there about this I will find it and post it.

gopi-1
10-25-2008, 12:27 PM
Then if that is the case, why did they bunch up 4 of the top 8 Filipino players in one bracket? Bracket 3 did not even have a single Filipino so your presumption does not hold any water and does not make any sense. If Corteza and Bustamante were in brackets 1, 2 or 3, then you might even find more cause for complaint because we might have 3 or 4 Filipinos in the last 4.



Actually, the 4 are the top 5 Filipino players for this tournament, the one who was not in their bracket was Jose Parica.

f210
10-25-2008, 12:28 PM
Its not a presumption, look into it. Don't take my word for it. How many How many played each other in the first round? I don;'t know the answer to my own question I just know that they manouvered things around.

Just because a thread was posted here does not mean it is TRUE. Can you direct me to any OFFICIAL link or ruling that would verify what you are talking about?

The fact that 4 of the top Filipinos were bunched together in one bracket makes your presumption FALSE.

JoeyInCali
10-25-2008, 12:28 PM
That's a ridiculous rule and discriminatory. That's like saying eight white people travelling from Canada shouldn't play each other, either.
Why do you have inject COLOR in there?
The Filipinos spent a $1000 at least just for tickets to get here.
Any concession done to their favor was not protested by the players.

bfdlad
10-25-2008, 12:28 PM
Actually, the 4 are the top 5 Filipino players for this tournament, the one who was not in their bracket was Jose Parica.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=117346 take a look at this thread.

f210
10-25-2008, 12:32 PM
Thats what I thought at the very beginning when I head about it. There is a thread out there about this I will find it and post it.

You can find 10 different threads but that still would not make it TRUE. I can post a thread myself and claim it is true. We need an official link to that ruling because they certainly did not follow it when the 4 Filipinos were grouped together.

bfdlad
10-25-2008, 12:36 PM
You can find 10 different threads but that still would not make it TRUE. I can post a thread myself and claim it is true. We need an official link to that ruling because they certainly did not follow it when the 4 Filipinos were grouped together.
Ok, thats fine, you are right. I am wrong, You happy now? seems that there are some very reliable and trustworthy people posted on that thread that seem to believe it for one reason or another. Maybe they all know something you don't? Probably not though they are all wrong again I am sorry you are right. I said what I wanted to I think I have govenn you the info you needed your choice to believe the other thread or not. Your belief in it is at this point a matter of supreme indifference to me.

gopi-1
10-25-2008, 12:37 PM
Its not a presumption, look into it. Don't take my word for it. How many How many played each other in the first round? I don;'t know the answer to my own question I just know that they manouvered things around.



If this rule really existed, because all you can say was this was from another thread, that a country who has 8 or more players will not play each other in the 1st round, then this rule was not all about the Filipinos, because Timbuktu and the Prince of Brunei can send an 8-man contingent for this Open, this is an Open tournament right? It just so happen that the Filipinos sent 8 players, and it doesn't mean the organizer's arm was twisted into deciding this to favor the Filipinos, please don't make it sound so bad.

Imagine Warren Kiamco who already played 13 matches (a bye, a loss, and 11 wins) and has two more games left to play to go
all the way, wins the whole damn thing, will this lessen his win because he didn't have to play a fellow Filipino in the 1st round?

f210
10-25-2008, 12:38 PM
Why do you have inject COLOR in there?
The Filipinos spent a $1000 at least just for tickets to get here.
Any concession done to their favor was not protested by the players.

Well let's see. Alcano had to knock out Bustamante to the loser's round. Kiamco had to knock out Corteza out of the competition. If these 4 players were spread out, some people would have more cause for complaint. So what 'concessions' are some people taking about?

f210
10-25-2008, 12:42 PM
Ok, thats fine, you are right. I am wrong, You happy now? seems that there are some very reliable and trustworthy people posted on that thread that seem to believe it for one reason or another. Maybe they all know something you don't? Probably not though they are all wrong again I am sorry you are right. I said what I wanted to I think I have govenn you the info you needed your choice to believe the other thread or not. Your belief in it is at this point a matter of supreme indifference to me.

:D :p :grin: Whatever.... Next time stop being so gullible and believing whatever you read. You are just trying to make excuses and sour graping because your favourite players did not make the semifinals. I am going to enjoy the rest of the games and will not waste my time responding to you anymore.

gopi-1
10-25-2008, 12:43 PM
Well let's see. Alcano had to knock out Bustamante to the loser's round. Kiamco had to knock out Corteza out of the competition. If these 4 players were spread out, some people would have more cause for complaint. So what 'concessions' are some people taking about?


Alcano has to knock Lee Vann Corteza to the Losers' bracket too, and Lee Vann returned the favor to Jose Parica...

bfdlad
10-25-2008, 12:44 PM
:D :p :grin: Whatever.... Next time stop being so gullible and believing whatever you read. You are just trying to make excuses and sour graping because your favourite players did not make the semifinals. I am going to enjoy the rest of the games and will not waste my time responding to you anymore.
Again you are right, I am wrong. Go Mika

gopi-1
10-25-2008, 12:47 PM
Again you are right, I am wrong. Go Mika


It's all good bfdlad, you aired your side, we aired ours, but please, can you do us a favor by spelling the word "Filipinos" right next time? http://emoticons4u.com/happy/1202.gif

bfdlad
10-25-2008, 12:51 PM
It's all good bfdlad, you aired your side, we aired ours, but please, can you do us a favor by spelling the word "Filipinos" right next time? http://emoticons4u.com/happy/1202.gif
Why is it spelled like that? Isn't the country Phillippines? Not saying anything just wondered why?

Sweet Marissa
10-25-2008, 12:55 PM
Why do you have inject COLOR in there?
The Filipinos spent a $1000 at least just for tickets to get here.
Any concession done to their favor was not protested by the players.
American and Canadian players have spent thousands to travel and play in the WPC, but no exception was made for them. Players all over the country spend about that much to make it to Virginia in airline fares and luggage fees, since we now have to PAY to transport our cues, something most airlines don't charge for on international flights.

gopi-1
10-25-2008, 12:56 PM
Why is it spelled like that? Isn't the country Phillippines? Not saying anything just wondered why?


Yes, it's spelled that way. Take it from me, I'm a living prhttp://emoticons4u.com/country/Philippines.gifhttp://emoticons4u.com/country/Philippines.giff! :wink:

ShootingArts
10-25-2008, 12:58 PM
. . . Imagine Warren Kiamco who already played 13 matches (a bye, a loss, and 11 wins) and has two more games left to play to go all the way, wins the whole damn thing, will this lessen his win because he didn't have to play a fellow Filipino in the 1st round?

Assuming that the original post was accurate and a ruling was made that only applied to two countries, then yes a win by a player from either of those two countries is tainted. That in itself is makes these kind of decisions ridiculous. It isn't fair to other players and it isn't fair to the players that get the sweetheart deal either. If they are only after the dollars, well they get those. If they want the respect also, the win will always be tainted.

Making the number of players eight so that the ruling only applied to two countries looks very much like it was a sweetheart deal for those two countries. It cost the players from those two countries a great deal of respect. If honor and integrity were important to the players once they saw how the ruling was structured they should have turned it down. Might have cost them some dollars but I still remember as a great human being a fellow competitor who adamantly refused special treatment when it was offered to him about thirty-five years ago. Bap is still missed. The winner is long forgotten.

Hu

gopi-1
10-25-2008, 12:59 PM
American and Canadian players have spent thousands to travel and play in the WPC, but no exception was made for them. Players all over the country spend about that much to make it to Virginia in airline fares and luggage fees, since we now have to PAY to transport our cues, something most airlines don't charge for on international flights.


Then next time, make sure the Canadians sends 8 or more players Marissa, and tell Barry that the
US of A is like a foreign country too, when it comes to traveling expenses, if this ruling really do exist...

gopi-1
10-25-2008, 01:07 PM
Assuming that the original post was accurate and a ruling was made that only applied to two countries, then yes a win by a player from either of those two countries is tainted. That in itself is makes these kind of decisions ridiculous. It isn't fair to other players and it isn't fair to the players that get the sweetheart deal either. If they are only after the dollars, well they get those. If they want the respect also, the win will always be tainted.

Making the number of players eight so that the ruling only applied to two countries looks very much like it was a sweetheart deal for those two countries. It cost the players from those two countries a great deal of respect. If honor and integrity were important to the players once they saw how the ruling was structured they should have turned it down. Might have cost them some dollars but I still remember as a great human being a fellow competitor who adamantly refused special treatment when it was offered to him about thirty-five years ago. Bap is still missed. The winner is long forgotten.

Hu



You won't get a pip from them unfortunately. I won't even be surprised that they don't even know that such a ruling like this was implemented this year, all they'll do is play and try to win, whoever they are up against; against fellow Filipinos, Americans, Martians, whoever, they will play hard and try to get the dough.

And we are both assuming that Warren will get to play a fellow Filipino in the 1st round, what are the odds to that? Like 34 to 1?
I still like his odds (reverse the odds) of playing someone from another country!

bfdlad
10-25-2008, 01:07 PM
Yes, it's spelled that way. Take it from me, I'm a living prhttp://emoticons4u.com/country/Philippines.gifhttp://emoticons4u.com/country/Philippines.giff! :wink:
I agree it is spelled that way. I am just wondering why ??

ribdoner
10-25-2008, 01:11 PM
American and Canadian players have spent thousands to travel and play in the WPC, but no exception was made for them. Players all over the country spend about that much to make it to Virginia in airline fares and luggage fees, since we now have to PAY to transport our cues, something most airlines don't charge for on international flights.

When was the last time you spent a scheckle to "transport" your cue to a tournement you played in?:smile:

BTW, your case is a fine embellishment:thumbup:

Sweet Marissa
10-25-2008, 01:27 PM
When was the last time you spent a scheckle to "transport" your cue to a tournement you played in?:smile:

BTW, your case is a fine embellishment:thumbup:
Since I have to check my clothes, I end up paying for my cue as extra baggage. I believe it was $50, but I haven't flown with it since last year.

parvus1202
10-25-2008, 01:27 PM
Why is it spelled like that? Isn't the country Phillippines? Not saying anything just wondered why?

I know Philippine history. My friend already explained that. I asked him the same question. Well he said that originally Philippines is really "Filipnas" from the name Rey Felipe, which in english is King Philip. So the natives called themselves in original form which Filipino.

Nostroke
10-25-2008, 01:29 PM
Since I have to check my clothes, I end up paying for my cue as extra baggage. I believe it was $50, but I haven't flown with it since last year.


Check your clothes and check'm often.:)

ribdoner
10-25-2008, 01:34 PM
Since I have to check my clothes, I end up paying for my cue as extra baggage. I believe it was $50, but I haven't flown with it since last year.

Clothes are overated, don't you think?:confused:

Where did you play? Did you end up on top?

gopi-1
10-25-2008, 01:37 PM
Clothes are overated, don't you think?:confused:

Where did you play? Did you end up on top?


I don't even want to comment on this... http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch23.gif

DRW
10-25-2008, 02:27 PM
Just because a thread was posted here does not mean it is TRUE. Can you direct me to any OFFICIAL link or ruling that would verify what you are talking about?

The fact that 4 of the top Filipinos were bunched together in one bracket makes your presumption FALSE.
It was stated at the players meeting. It is a fact! All of these players who finished where they did are capable of these placings under any circumstances. They all are great players.

ShootingArts
10-25-2008, 02:38 PM
You won't get a pip from them unfortunately. I won't even be surprised that they don't even know that such a ruling like this was implemented this year, all they'll do is play and try to win, whoever they are up against; against fellow Filipinos, Americans, Martians, whoever, they will play hard and try to get the dough.

And we are both assuming that Warren will get to play a fellow Filipino in the 1st round, what are the odds to that? Like 34 to 1?
I still like his odds (reverse the odds) of playing someone from another country!

It isn't clear if the ruling was actually enacted after it was announced. However, I assumed nothing about the draw. Regardless of who he would have drawn anyway, once it is guaranteed that Warren does not have the possibility of drawing people he otherwise might have drawn because of a ruling that only applies to a few the event is tainted.

I wouldn't have minded as much if the ruling had been announced for future matches and having a smaller number of players from each country get the exemption although any exemption at all seems ridiculous for individual competition. Announcing an exemption at the last minute that was tailored to only apply to two countries leaves a bad smell.

I don't blame the competitors, I have taken advantage of rules while complaining that they weren't fair myself although the rules I used applied equally to all. I blame the one(s) that decided to make a last minute policy change.

Hu

gopi-1
10-25-2008, 02:51 PM
It isn't clear if the ruling was actually enacted after it was announced. However, I assumed nothing about the draw. Regardless of who he would have drawn anyway, once it is guaranteed that Warren does not have the possibility of drawing people he otherwise might have drawn because of a ruling that only applies to a few the event is tainted.

I wouldn't have minded as much if the ruling had been announced for future matches and having a smaller number of players from each country get the exemption although any exemption at all seems ridiculous for individual competition. Announcing an exemption at the last minute that was tailored to only apply to two countries leaves a bad smell.

I don't blame the competitors, I have taken advantage of rules while complaining that they weren't fair myself although the rules I used applied equally to all. I blame the one(s) that decided to make a last minute policy change.

Hu


I agree exactly to what you've just said except for the "tainted" part. Nobody requested anybody to
do them favors here, and the thread title makes it look like the Filipinos were responsible for the last
minute changes. It should've been titled as, "Don't let players from the same country with 8 or more
entries play each other in the early rounds", although it will make it look very long and winding! http://emoticons4u.com/happy/1202.gif

What I'm wondering about is why are they bracketed in the same group, but they, the players
themselves just don't care about who they'll play, and if it's fine by them, it's fine by me too!

ShootingArts
10-25-2008, 03:33 PM
When I say an event was tainted, I mean that it wasn't fair for all. I think the Filipinos and those from Kuwait were the only ones to benefit from this rule and it may have been made to cater to the folks from the Mideast and happened to catch up the Filipinos also. Unless this is something the Filipino players pressed for it isn't a reflection on them.

Assuming that the Filipino players play better than average, this not only gave them an easier path but gave others a tougher path. To explain what I mean about paths, say just four of us were playing in a mini. You, me, Bustamante and the infamous Travis Trotter. Since you can't play Bustamonte in this first round, you automatically get an easier path, me or Travis. Since You can't Play Bustamonte, Travis or I automatically have to also. All four players are affected. So while we don't know how this affected the paths of the players, up to 32 players were affected if this ruling was used. Even more if you consider that the paths of all of the affected players also affected the paths of other players in the later rounds.

I do agree that the thread could have been titled better. I doubt this idea came out of the blue but there is no indication where it originated from. Two countries benefitted so I suspect that at least one individual from one of those two countries pushed for this ruling. It could have been a person of wealth and power from one of these countries, not even a player.

Hu



I agree exactly to what you've just said except for the "tainted" part. Nobody requested anybody to
do them favors here, and the thread title makes it look like the Filipinos were responsible for the last
minute changes. It should've been titled as, "Don't let players from the same country with 8 or more
entries play each other in the early rounds", although it will make it look very long and winding! http://emoticons4u.com/happy/1202.gif

What I'm wondering about is why are they bracketed in the same group, but they, the players
themselves just don't care about who they'll play, and if it's fine by them, it's fine by me too!

jamesroberts
10-25-2008, 03:52 PM
Its not fair for players to be "spaced" based on where they travel from.
I felt like saying during the players meeting thats it not fair, I mean we had more than 8 people come from florida, can we be team florida and be spaced out.
anytime a draw take 3-4 hours it lends to suspicions . If there werent some shady things going on with spacing players then why did the draw take so long

This us open was not run as well as last years and that is disapointing.
From the banning of ipods and ear plugs because they are "unprofessional"
however hats are perfectly fine, also you can drink beer at the table..........

I really like the playing conditions and I hope they learn from there mistakes from this year and make things better for next year

crosseyedjoe
10-25-2008, 04:22 PM
I guess the rule or desision to not let the Phillipinos play each other in the early rounds payed off for someone. Looks like there could be 2 in the US Open finals. So I am obviously biased but still don't get why it happened and seems like it worked out the way the powers wanted it to.
I do not want to take anything away from the players as they have to play very well to get to this point but would there have been a different outcome if that rule was not there? Thats my question.

This is a myth. There are usually 6 or 7 Filipinos playing in the Open. If you bunch them up in one bracket , you are in fact giving a clear roadway for one of them to be in the semis.

This is the reason why they need to space out the contigents. Case in point, bracket 4.

tpdtom
10-25-2008, 07:41 PM
Yes, it's spelled that way. Take it from me, I'm a living prhttp://emoticons4u.com/country/Philippines.gifhttp://emoticons4u.com/country/Philippines.giff! :wink:


That's a little dicey. Often the Filipino people say "Pilipino". Non-natives cannot figure out what is correct. I think they only thing they can agree on is that they are "Pinoys" and usually speak "Taglish"...;) . Now just tell me that I'm wrong :cool: :D ...Tom

gopi-1
10-25-2008, 07:43 PM
That's a little dicey. Often the Filipino people say "Pilipino". Non-natives cannot figure out what is correct. I think they only thing they can agree on is that they are "Pinoys" and usually speak "Taglish"...;) . Now just tell me that I'm wrong :cool: :D ...Tom



Pilipino is the National language, Tagalog is just a dialect, while "Filipinos" are the people, don't ask me why! http://emoticons4u.com/happy/1202.gif

parvus1202
10-26-2008, 12:37 AM
It became Pilipino because in early days there was no F in your alphabet.

gopi-1
10-26-2008, 12:42 AM
It became Pilipino because in early days there was no F in your alphabet.



lolz! So true!

JohnPT
10-26-2008, 12:43 AM
All this bickering about brackets jinxed Ronnie.

By the way, Filipino is the english translation of Pilipino. Honest.

memikey
10-26-2008, 02:11 AM
Its not fair for players to be "spaced" based on where they travel from.
I felt like saying during the players meeting thats it not fair, I mean we had more than 8 people come from florida, can we be team florida and be spaced out.
anytime a draw take 3-4 hours it lends to suspicions . If there werent some shady things going on with spacing players then why did the draw take so long

This us open was not run as well as last years and that is disapointing.
From the banning of ipods and ear plugs because they are "unprofessional"
however hats are perfectly fine, also you can drink beer at the table..........

I really like the playing conditions and I hope they learn from there mistakes from this year and make things better for next year

First of all congratulations on your play in the event which others have stated was really good at times...............better luck next time.

Given what was apparently said at the players meeting and how the brackets actually came out in the draw and given the absence of any further clarification by the organiser it is hardly surprising that there is confusion as regards which countries' players were intended to be involved in any geographical draw 'seeding' and as regards to what extent any geographical 'seeding' was actually eventually carried out.

To add to the confusion one of the countries named in the other thread was Kuwait....and Kuwait do not seem to have had 8 players competing. The number of nationals of various arab countries may have been 8 or more but I'm 99.9% certain there were not 8 from Kuwait alone.

To further blur the issue I'm pretty sure that UK had at least 8 players in the draw.

Personally can't see that there can ever be justifiable fairness in any seeding whatsoever based on travelling distances/nationality factors, in any tournament anywhere in the world. However, it isn't hard to understand how a desire on the part of organisers of tournaments to encourage participation by larger numbers of entrants might influence their judgement at times.

All that being understood there can surely be little doubt that the players performing best on that particular US Open week prevailed through to the lattermost stages.

sjm
10-26-2008, 07:01 AM
I agree with the basic premise that this was unnecessary. Nonetheless, I don't think it makes much difference, and I'm OK with it.

In the NCAA Basketball Tournament, the tournament draw is always done in a way that ensures that (barring the slight possibility that a conference lands more than eight teams in the field) two teams from the same conference cannot meet each other until the tournament has been reduced to eight teams. It's a formula that, in my view, has worked well for basketball.

In other words, there is some precedent on which to rely here. Still, as I've noted, it seems unnecessary.

mosconiac
10-26-2008, 07:27 AM
Manipulation of a draw is NEVER a good idea no matter how subtle.

The majority of pool tournaments are an individual affair (versus team competition), therefore the draw should be entirely random with no consideration given to country of origin.

JoeyA
10-26-2008, 08:02 AM
Does anyone know if the draw is made publicly at the U.S. OPen 9 Ball Championship?

Is it more common to have the draw done in private than publicly at most regional and national tournaments?

If there was such a decision made, I don't see why the number had to be 8. It could have been 2 or any other number for that matter.

This decision if it was made is similar to seeding (based upon ranking) which is common in other sports.

I think seeding a tournament reduces the luck of the draw and can also reduce the number of some participants. When the luck factor is allowed (no seeding), it probably results in greater participation.

There are some hard-heads like myself, who play in national tournaments just to have a chance to play some of the best players to test my mettle under tournament conditions and to learn from the mistakes that I am sure to make.

JoeyA

ShootingArts
10-26-2008, 08:31 AM
Joey,

Shaving the dice in any way including cooking the draw a bit discourages maybe the most important participants of all, the pack. The members of the pack are the perennial also rans, the up and comers that haven't quite broken through to the elite level yet but may at any time, and the guys that have won some but are past winning another unless the stars align perfectly and the pool gods smile at the same time. Also the guys like you who just want to test their mettle against the finest. The members of the pack know that at best they have to play 100% and maybe have a little luck on their side to win, they definitely don't want the deck stacked against them. Without the pack there would be no pool competitions, without the pack no sport can survive. They don't expect to be catered to for the most part but sticking a knife into them is a very poor decision also. Doing it as a last minute change is even more foolish.

About the draw, behind closed doors draws happen and are always a bad idea. I don't know that this one did but it seems likely. Curious why it would take four hours for a draw as reported too.

Hu


Does anyone know if the draw is made publicly at the U.S. OPen 9 Ball Championship?

Is it more common to have the draw done in private than publicly at most regional and national tournaments?

If there was such a decision made, I don't see why the number had to be 8. It could have been 2 or any other number for that matter.

This decision if it was made is similar to seeding (based upon ranking) which is common in other sports.

I think seeding a tournament reduces the luck of the draw and can also reduce the number of some participants. When the luck factor is allowed (no seeding), it probably results in greater participation.

There are some hard-heads like myself, who play in national tournaments just to have a chance to play some of the best players to test my mettle under tournament conditions and to learn from the mistakes that I am sure to make.

JoeyA

DRW
10-26-2008, 11:54 AM
Joey,

Shaving the dice in any way including cooking the draw a bit discourages maybe the most important participants of all, the pack. The members of the pack are the perennial also rans, the up and comers that haven't quite broken through to the elite level yet but may at any time, and the guys that have won some but are past winning another unless the stars align perfectly and the pool gods smile at the same time. Also the guys like you who just want to test their mettle against the finest. The members of the pack know that at best they have to play 100% and maybe have a little luck on their side to win, they definitely don't want the deck stacked against them. Without the pack there would be no pool competitions, without the pack no sport can survive. They don't expect to be catered to for the most part but sticking a knife into them is a very poor decision also. Doing it as a last minute change is even more foolish.

About the draw, behind closed doors draws happen and are always a bad idea. I don't know that this one did but it seems likely. Curious why it would take four hours for a draw as reported too.

Hu
Could not be better said! The pack, commonly called feeder fish. Without them there would be no money in tournaments.

bandido
10-30-2008, 05:31 PM
I agree it is spelled that way. I am just wondering why ??
Here's your explanation bfdlad.

The Philippines was named after the Spanish Colonizers' ruler, King Philip, thus the name Philippines. But this name "Philippines" came to use only after the Spanish Colonizers were booted out of the country thus the English spelling from an English base word "Philip". The Spanish equivalent of the name Philip is Felipe so back during the 400 years of the Spanish rule here the archipaelago (composed of 7,100 islands) was known as "Islas de Filipinas".

Now this is hearsay and I can't direct you to the ruling since the originator, of the language, died more than 500 years ago.:smile:

crosseyedjoe
10-31-2008, 12:05 AM
Manipulation of a draw is NEVER a good idea no matter how subtle.

The majority of pool tournaments are an individual affair (versus team competition), therefore the draw should be entirely random with no consideration given to country of origin.

This is done to avoid one bracket to be loaded with players from one country. When a bracket(there are 4 starting brackets in US Open) is loaded with players from one country it's very likely that they will dominate that bracket. This is specially true for players from the Philippines who are all world class talents. If you don't space them out intentionally, you'll give a country an easier road to the semifinal at least for one of them because the random draw might put most of them in one bracket.

I wish people can understand this small thing.

ShootingArts
10-31-2008, 04:41 AM
This is done to avoid one bracket to be loaded with players from one country. When a bracket(there are 4 starting brackets in US Open) is loaded with players from one country it's very likely that they will dominate that bracket. This is specially true for players from the Philippines who are all world class talents. If you don't space them out intentionally, you'll give a country an easier road to the semifinal at least for one of them because the random draw might put most of them in one bracket.

I wish people can understand this small thing.

what type of tournament was this?

I was under the impression this was a tournament for individuals. If so, each individual is equal and it doesn't matter which bracket each individual lands in. Of course if this is a competition for teams or countries then I understand your point.

Hu

quitecoolguy
10-31-2008, 09:52 AM
all this fuss

in a way a philipino won the us open .

Mika is half phipino and speaks fluent tagala

that is what i have heard

crosseyedjoe
10-31-2008, 12:33 PM
what type of tournament was this?

I was under the impression this was a tournament for individuals. If so, each individual is equal and it doesn't matter which bracket each individual lands in. Of course if this is a competition for teams or countries then I understand your point.

Hu

You must put this in context. Read the first post. Some people are assuming that spacing out the Philippine contigent is in effect helping them out because they don't knock each other out in the early rounds. It's not a team competition, but the poster didn't say why Lee Van Corteza wasn't fitted against Bustamante in the early rounds or so and so against so and so. He singled the Philippine contingent. So I'm explaining to some people here that if the luck of the draw puts most of the Filipinos in one bracket, it is in fact making it easier for one of them to get to the semis. When you have a random draw, you also need to accept this possibility.

Last year, the issue was the other way around, many Filipinos did meet each other in the early rounds. And some folks were complaining that the draw was tweaked so the Filipinos would knock each other out. I also pointed that tweaking the draw that way was stupid for the very same reason I stated here.

ShootingArts
10-31-2008, 02:00 PM
I have been with this thread from the beginning. I was just pointing out yet again that this was an individual competition so any rigging of the draw is BS. There is some merit to seeding some players on merit to attract top players and past champions but making a rule that only applied to two teams was ridiculous. Making any last minute changes that aren't required for the integrity of the event is a very bad idea. Nobody has confirmed that the arranging of players was actually followed through with though and I haven't seen the brackets.

Barry does read this forum and I think it has some influence on him based on earlier apologies. He may rethink this ruling and either eliminate it or make it apply much more across the board. Of course it will soon get to where there is no draw and the players are just carefully sorted if this is taken too far. All in all just a bad idea in my opinion.

Hu




You must put this in context. Read the first post. Some people are assuming that spacing out the Philippine contigent is in effect helping them out because they don't knock each other out in the early rounds. It's not a team competition, but the poster didn't say why Lee Van Corteza wasn't fitted against Bustamante in the early rounds or so and so against so and so. He singled the Philippine contingent. So I'm explaining to some people here that if the luck of the draw puts most of the Filipinos in one bracket, it is in fact making it easier for one of them to get to the semis. When you have a random draw, you also need to accept this possibility.

Last year, the issue was the other way around, many Filipinos did meet each other in the early rounds. And some folks were complaining that the draw was tweaked so the Filipinos would knock each other out. I also pointed that tweaking the draw that way was stupid for the very same reason I stated here.