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macneilb
10-25-2008, 12:45 PM
i can't seem to get how he does it so consistently...and on top of that w/ such good control. anyone got a clue??

gopi-1
10-25-2008, 12:49 PM
By watching Busti break from his Accustats tapes when he was still too young to play that dangerously...

Klopek
10-25-2008, 03:09 PM
0000000000

mullyman
10-25-2008, 03:13 PM
And if you're talking about the break, getting the cue ball in the air is not really a good thing. Slight miss on the thickness of the head ball and that cue ball is airborne and could literally kill someone. I do not recommend trying to imitate something like that.
MULLY

i need somethin
10-25-2008, 03:35 PM
well he mastered it 2 da point where he played 100 games and lauched it twice of the table and scrached 2

Bigtruck
10-25-2008, 03:39 PM
i can't seem to get how he does it so consistently...and on top of that w/ such good control. anyone got a clue??

What type of shot are you referring to?

A jump shot? The break?.....need more info, ;)

Ray

Support for Smorg avatar badges available******** pm me

TXsouthpaw
10-25-2008, 04:00 PM
And if you're talking about the break, getting the cue ball in the air is not really a good thing. Slight miss on the thickness of the head ball and that cue ball is airborne and could literally kill someone. I do not recommend trying to imitate something like that.
MULLY


i agree with mulley. theres plenty of good breakers out there that ud be better off imatating. Its to unpredictable.

busty and hillbilly come to mind

AuntyDan
10-25-2008, 04:26 PM
Almost every pool tuition book I've seen says it's bad to have the cue ball go up in the air on impact and yet almost every Pro does it. If you have a copy of Charley Bond's "The Great Break Shot" it has photos of multiple Pros breaking on the cover and every single one shows the cue ball a foot off the bed of the table.

It seems to me that if you hit the 1 very close to exactly perpendicular to the line of aim, and given an amount of down angle on the cue ball caused by butt elevation then the cue ball only has the option of going straight up upon impact. The only way to avoid this would be to have the cue more level, or to hit with less speed. (Soft breaking.)

I also like the idea that, if the cue ball goes straight up, it is out of the way of the balls as they spread and far more likely to stay put in the middle of the table once it lands.

Fatboy
10-25-2008, 04:28 PM
And if you're talking about the break, getting the cue ball in the air is not really a good thing. Slight miss on the thickness of the head ball and that cue ball is airborne and could literally kill someone. I do not recommend trying to imitate something like that.
MULLY


I was sitting less than 8 feet from the rack last night lik1 10 hours ago watching SVB hit the head ball playing by himself, NEVER once was the CB off the table from when it left his tip to when it hit the head ball, if it was I couldnt see it,Its a pop stroke and spin-what ever that means, he dosent crush them at all, its absolute control, and when the rock keaves the cloth there is no control left. how he does i dont know, i do it sometimes and i dont know why.

on a side note I have a friend who hits them harder than Hillbilly, Nevel, anyone-Kim Davenport agrees with me, and he has seen it all. Anyways he could get a little air under the rock(when he wanted to) and I have seen him hit the roof in Tiptons in Stockton a few times, hitting it hard THUD, oh yeah it was a 20' tall lid on that room, when the CB landed back down on the table it bounced higher than SVB lifts it in when he breaks, infact SVB dasent hit them very hard, the just gets that pop-Adam Benke does too.

macneilb
10-25-2008, 07:01 PM
What type of shot are you referring to?

A jump shot? The break?.....need more info, ;)

Ray


on his break. he almost always puts it in the air but he does it w/ phenomenal control almost every time. i agree it probably aint the best break to try to imitate, but i like that his CB doesn't get kicked around as much as most people right off the snap.

Bandanna Joe
10-25-2008, 07:37 PM
Didn't Shane develop his break from watching Sigel play? I think I watched him talk about it on youtube or read it somewhere.

To me, IMO, it looks like his break is a 'Modified Sigel Break.'

Even Sigel recently changed his break from the Captain Hook of old bending the shaft into the felt to where he takes the tip to the one rather than the felt.

IMO, Shane took Mikes break and made it even better!

vagabond
10-25-2008, 08:16 PM
i can't seem to get how he does it so consistently...and on top of that w/ such good control. anyone got a clue??

That is how both men and women pros broke the racks in late 80s.there used to be a 90 pound 5`2`` tall women pro from flawda by name bonnie hoffman who used to attack the rack with explosive strength as good as any men out there.After hitting the belly of the yellow the whitey goes into the air for 2-3 feet high and comes down to land on the center of the table between the side pockets.
:cool:

quitecoolguy
10-25-2008, 08:50 PM
Some may argue with me ..but if i had to copy a break ...hmmm it would have to be the late great Tony Ellin that guy had a monster break..it was insane.. Wish i could have met the guy

Poolhalljunkie
10-25-2008, 10:34 PM
I played with Shane for three days and let me tell you if I could emulate anyone's break it would be Shanes. I have seen plenty of TV mathes and watched good gamblers. If you give any of the the consistency of sahnes break their game would be better, I was abel to duplicate his break for a short time and i was running out with consistency. just my .02

atthecat
10-25-2008, 11:24 PM
I agree with PoolHallJunkie. Shane has the best break I've ever seen. He uses so little effort compared to the monster breakers and gets the same result or better.

vagabond
10-26-2008, 06:59 AM
Some may argue with me ..but if i had to copy a break ...hmmm it would have to be the late great Tony Ellin that guy had a monster break..it was insane.. Wish i could have met the guy


yes indeed he had a monster break but the only problem with that monster break was cue ball used to travel around the world and no telling where it would end.:cool:

mosconiac
10-26-2008, 07:06 AM
There are several videos on youtube showing SVB's break technique...including my own. I've spent quite a bit of time studying his technique and I can emulate it somewhat. Face it, it takes SVB's superior natural ability to get the most of this relatively complicated technique.

SVB's break can be broken down like this:

1) SVB sets up low over the cue with his feet pretty close to the table and his back hand very "forward" on the cue. Front leg bent, rear leg nearly locked. SVB takes several long, quick practice strokes. The cue is slightly elevated (~5 degrees) and the tip is aimed somewhere around just below center CB. This you will need to experiment with, but you won't be going to extremes either way.

2) Here's where a lot of action occurs...SVB takes a long back stroke and cocks his wrist (watch the videos very closely to see the wrist movement...its subtle).

3) As he completes 2), he begins raising his torso and transitioning his weight forward...think: slide up & forward...smoothly. This is why he stands close to the table (rear foot more forward than typical) and keeps his wrist forward in step 1. This further elevates the cue (to ~10-15 degrees).

4) As he completes 3), SVB begins his strike on the CB. The key component here is that he drops his elbow (substantially) to level out the cue. By moving his body forward he transitions his "forward" hand position to a more "neutral" position (hope that made sense!).

5) As SVB completes his transition into the CB, his back foot is now in a position to push him forward into the shot. If going for low power, his foot will remain locked to the ground. If he wants a little more, he ends up on his tiptoe. For max power, he wil push off and end up with his foot off the ground. He always ends up with his front leg bent quite a bit and his hips nearly flush with the table. Don't forget to snap the wrist thru.

If you watch the vids closely you will see that he may be hitting the table with his cue on the follow-thru...I do when I emulate this break...you should see the nicks in my J&J. You might even subcontiously think you are going to hit your hand on the rail!

It should be noted that his cue position is level thru impact so that early elevated cue aimed at "just below center" is now a level cue aimed "just above center". This slight top spin is what gives him that charactersitic hit/bounce/squat. If you got it all right, the CB (hit just above center) leaves the felt, hits the head ball on the fly or on the first bounce, rebounds up & back (due to the weight of the rack), land roughly between the side pockets, and have just enough top left on it to come to a halt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOLH4loShWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjtwfjHXStI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvt5U5B7jIY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA3JCQuEu-U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zg4KMjgY0k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YCBs6T2kMI

mosconiac
10-26-2008, 07:13 AM
I forgot about this old post I made...the photos will help you visualize what he does. Just remember, everything is a smooth transition...there are no sudden movements.

Here are the pics of SVB. You will note that he begins with a low body position with a steep cue angle. As he is practice stroking, he makes slight upward movements with his body in preparation for neraly standing up when he strikes the ball.

At impact, SVB has stood up a bit and dropped his arm thru so the cue ends up nearly parallel with the slate (the tip is above the CB center for some follow to help the CB squat after impact). Look how quickly the CB rises even though the cue was nearly parallel!

As you can see, SVB is landing on the head ball (this is a barbox so its easy to sail all the way to the rack) and bouncing the CB back the center of the table with follow for a squatting action. He happens to hit this break slightly off center so the CB clides to the side rail as it curves forward.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/SVBBreak100.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/SVBBreak125.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/SVBBreak150.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/SVBBreak200.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/SVBBreak225.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/SVBBreak250.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/SVBBreak275.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/mosconiac/Pool%20Stuff/SVBBreak300.jpg

Here's the vid at full-speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zg4KMjgY0k

macneilb
10-26-2008, 08:41 AM
thanks mosconiac. that frame by frame of shane is awsome.

ceebee
10-26-2008, 08:54 AM
SVB hits the cue ball very accurately & his speed is timed for the cue ball to do what it does. The cue ball hits the deck, just before impact with the lead ball. If the cue ball strikes the lead ball, on the up part of the arc, that can be cause for concern (the cue ball caroms off the lead ball & becomes airborne). If the cue ball strikes the lead ball on the down part of the arc (see frame 6) this can be a good thing to create a desired effect of killing the cue ball. The cue ball caroms off the lead ball & back toward the player. A slight bit of forward roll acts as brakes wihen the cue ball hits the deck again.

This was a simplified description of what I see & try to do myself.

Good Luck...

Bandanna Joe
10-26-2008, 09:22 AM
Great analysis Mosconiac! Thanks for the freeze frames.

I once saw a video where Archer talks about fooling himself by hitting slightly high on the break. He implied that he is actually hitting just below center but aiming a tip high. Maybe he doesn't realize that he is actually hitting it high like Shane.

Frame five definitely resembles the Captain Hook influence.

mosconiac
10-26-2008, 11:05 AM
I once saw a video where Archer talks about fooling himself by hitting slightly high on the break. He implied that he is actually hitting just below center but aiming a tip high. Maybe he doesn't realize that he is actually hitting it high like Shane.
It's interesting that we still hear people say you have to draw the rock to get it to settle in the middle of the table & squat. It's quite obvious that they *think* they are hitting it low, but actually hitting *at least slightly* above center.

If the CB had backspin, it would continue moving toward them, not hook forward to a stop. This is especially true of people professing side rail breaks. They aim very low (which requires a LOT of elevation), but follow thru near center.

You'll notice on my vids (the dark ones in freeze frame above), SVB is addrenssing the CB very low (lower than he does on a 9'). This is from his hand being close to the bartable's rail and therefore forcing a more elevated cue on that kind of table.

AuntyDan
10-26-2008, 03:04 PM
If the cue ball strikes the lead ball, on the up part of the arc, that can be cause for concern (the cue ball caroms off the lead ball & becomes airborne).

Why is this bad? Look at the cover of your own book Charley, every Pro pictured there has the cue ball in the air.

ceebee
10-26-2008, 03:15 PM
Hey there Aunty Dan, the next sentence gives you the reasoning behind the concern & how to avoid "cue ball launch". By adding just a scosch to the hit or taking some heat off the hit, you can time the cue ball to act correctly & not become a problem. If you look in my book, on page 45, you'll see what I mean.

Good Luck...

mullyman
10-26-2008, 04:39 PM
Why is this bad? Look at the cover of your own book Charley, every Pro pictured there has the cue ball in the air.


The cueball is going to go airborne on the break, that's a given. The reason Shanes break jumps so high in the air is that it is either hitting an upper area of the head ball and bouncing straight up or it's hitting just before the head ball, hitting the head ball and ricocheting straight up into the air. I'm going to go with the latter. I still don't think that it's something that people should try to emulate. There are other ways to squat the rock without sending it into the atmosphere and risking it flying off the table and hurting someone.
MULLY
it works for him, good, more power to him

Patrick Johnson
10-26-2008, 04:40 PM
ceebee:
If the cue ball strikes the lead ball, on the up part of the arc, that can be cause for concern (the cue ball caroms off the lead ball & becomes airborne).

Aunty Dan:
Why is this bad? Look at the cover of your own book Charley, every Pro pictured there has the cue ball in the air.
It's probably not too bad when it only goes a foot or less in the air, but even then some power is being wasted lifting the CB that could be put to better use moving object balls.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
10-26-2008, 04:46 PM
How does Shane get the white in the air everytime??

i can't seem to get how he does it so consistently...and on top of that w/ such good control. anyone got a clue??

I don't think it's a good thing - wastes too much power and probably magnifies the amount of power lost for a slightly offcenter hit on the head ball. It could be fixed by increasing/decreasing power or lengthening/shortening distance.

As far as Shane's technique is concerned, I don't think it's complicated; just a simple matter of standing up so he can swing his whole arm - lots of hard breakers do that, just not all of them as well as Shane. When I say "simple", of course I mean simple in concept - controlling that standing-up full-arm stroke is not simple at all.

pj
chgo

ironman
10-26-2008, 04:50 PM
He elevates the butt of his cue slightly, the rest is just years of repetition and trial and error.

Good answer and an old trick. I have known players who could break lights out with this one.

ironman
10-26-2008, 04:58 PM
i agree with mulley. theres plenty of good breakers out there that ud be better off imatating. Its to unpredictable.

busty and hillbilly come to mind

Hillbilly has as much power as anyone and yet even he has toned it down some in the past year. When he lets it go though, it is incredible.

Annother who had an incredible break in his day was Danny Medina. It scared the hell out of people, but it was so unpredictable. He had incredible power. Once he toned it down and got it under control, he was feared by most and winning a lot of big events.

monski
10-26-2008, 05:03 PM
I was told once before that the QB is slightly bigger than the rest of the balls. This makes the middle of the QB slightly higher than the middle of the OB. So imo there is a tendency for the QB to go airborne when it hits the OB at solid a fast gliding speed (with stun or a slight forward spin) specially if there is strong resistance from from the OB... Of course the OB has strongest resistance on the break since its stacked up against other balls firmly.

AuntyDan
10-26-2008, 05:27 PM
I don't think it's a good thing - wastes too much power and probably magnifies the amount of power lost for a slightly offcenter hit on the head ball. It could be fixed by increasing/decreasing power or lengthening/shortening distance.
chgo

So why most Pros do it? Given that most work very hard on their break shot technique surely they would also have fixed it if they considered in wasn't optimal?

T411
10-26-2008, 05:40 PM
on his break. he almost always puts it in the air but he does it w/ phenomenal control almost every time. i agree it probably aint the best break to try to imitate, but i like that his CB doesn't get kicked around as much as most people right off the snap.

This is the reason why it is a good idea; but its only good if you can do it consistently.

Patrick Johnson
10-26-2008, 07:57 PM
I don't think it's a good thing - wastes too much power and probably magnifies the amount of power lost for a slightly offcenter hit on the head ball. It could be fixed by increasing/decreasing power or lengthening/shortening distance.

So why most Pros do it? Given that most work very hard on their break shot technique surely they would also have fixed it if they considered in wasn't optimal?

I think it's a likely side effect of breaking as hard as possible. Maybe they don't know how to fix it. Maybe they think it's optimal for the same reason you do. Maybe you're right. I just don't think so.

Here's what I know:

It wastes power, something they're clearly trying to maximize.

The idea that it avoids collisions, especially that it avoids enough bad outcomes from collisions to matter more than the loss of power (and CB control), is highly speculative.

He scratched in one of those videos.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
10-26-2008, 07:58 PM
i like that his CB doesn't get kicked around as much as most people right off the snap.

Who says it doesn't?

pj
chgo

Klopek
10-26-2008, 08:42 PM
0000000000

macneilb
10-27-2008, 01:29 AM
I think it's a likely side effect of breaking as hard as possible. Maybe they don't know how to fix it. Maybe they think it's optimal for the same reason you do. Maybe you're right. I just don't think so.

chgo

I have to disagree on that one. it doesn't look like shane really breaks as hard as possible, he hits them firm...but he doesn't put everything he has into his break, which IMO equals control. I agree that it is up to opinion if the CB gets kicked around as much on his break as it does on others, but whatever happens, he generally lands it near the center of the table almost every time. watch the shane vs. orcullo match on propoolvideo.com and you'll see how well controlled his break is.

predator
10-27-2008, 03:23 AM
Well, the cue has got to be elevated slightly, just a few degrees. No one can hit a hard break with 0 degrees elevation. If the cueball leaves the bed of the table by just 1mm after stroking, it will probably jump when it impacts another 9 or 10 balls all tightly racked together. I can't see a way to avoid this effect if you hit really hard. Some energy has got to go to waste. We are not machines and therefore can't be 100% efficient.

But do you think Shane will be concerned by all this stuff? He controls those breaks as well as humanly possible, especially 10ball. I can't see anyone improving on that.

JB Cases
10-27-2008, 05:52 AM
modern cueballs are not larger than the object balls. Bartables with oversized cueballs are going the way of the dinosaur.

Patrick Johnson
10-27-2008, 06:02 AM
I have to disagree on that one. it doesn't look like shane really breaks as hard as possible, he hits them firm...but he doesn't put everything he has into his break, which IMO equals control.

He doesn't hit them as hard as he possibly could, but he hits them harder than it appears - I think that's what standing up does for him. He gets more power into the rack than most breaks that hop that much, so I'd have to say it's working for him - it must be very near the cloth to be that powerful and only hop that much. But I still think it would be even more effective if the CB didn't hop.

BTW, it looks to me like his CB doesn't hit the cloth on the way to the headball.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
10-27-2008, 06:04 AM
... If the cueball leaves the bed of the table by just 1mm after stroking, it will probably jump when it impacts another 9 or 10 balls all tightly racked together. I can't see a way to avoid this effect if you hit really hard.

You can lengthen or shorten your break distance so the CB hits the headball when it's on (or closer to) the cloth.

pj
chgo

T411
10-27-2008, 06:23 AM
I think it's a likely side effect of breaking as hard as possible. Maybe they don't know how to fix it. Maybe they think it's optimal for the same reason you do. Maybe you're right. I just don't think so.

Here's what I know:

It wastes power, something they're clearly trying to maximize.

The idea that it avoids collisions, especially that it avoids enough bad outcomes from collisions to matter more than the loss of power (and CB control), is highly speculative.

He scratched in one of those videos.

pj
chgo

The idea that someone is clearly trying to maximize power over positive results? well this thought really amuses me. Everything that Shane is trying to accomplish during the break to include getting whitey in the air, he does very well.

Cornerman
10-27-2008, 06:36 AM
I think it's a likely side effect of breaking as hard as possible. Maybe they don't know how to fix it. Maybe they think it's optimal for the same reason you do. Maybe you're right. I just don't think so.

I think you're wrong in the sense that you're only looking at the collision and the transfer of energy from the cueball to the pack of balls . And as correct as that may seem on the surface, I've always stressed that the "efficiency" numbers bandied about has to also include the mechanics of the player.

It's no coincidence that the top breakers' hop and stop are so common. In a handwaving argument, it's clear that the professional top breakers like Shane and Bustamante (and anyone else who breaks really well) have some kind of mechanical efficiency to break so hard and in control with less effort. The hop is a result, but not necessarily what they're striving for, but it's a common result. What they're striving for is mechanical efficiency in the break. It is IMO a complete and utter waste (and too much tunnel vision) to consider trying to maximize the cueball-to-rack energy transfer efficiency because that's really nowhere near as important as maximizing the player's motion efficiency. That is, there's an acceptable energy loss at collision of the rack if the player's contact with the cueball has been maximized with the entire body, cue, and cueball collision in mind.

Additional handwaving, it's seems pretty obvious that when people emulate the Bustamante, Sigel, and Van Boening break, they see immediate and long-lasting results. I know when I'm breaking really well, the cueball happens to hop and squat. I'm not trying to hop; the cueball just hops. It's that action and the feeling in my arms and body that makes me say, "that was a good break." There's more doom and gloom in trying to "not hop."

Fred

jsp
10-27-2008, 06:54 AM
I don't think the CB hopping a bit on the break is a bad thing at all, provided you hit the 1 ball square. I actually tend to think hopping (as long as it's less than a foot) is the desirable thing to do.

When I don't think about doing it, I usually don't hop the CB. When the CB doesn't hop and I hit the head ball flush, I can rarely keep the CB squatted in place. Usually, I have a bit of follow or draw that would move the CB a foot or two forward or backward from center table, but most often the CB would draw back to near the head rail.

However, when I do hit the 1 flush and manage to hop the CB, the CB almost always stays in the center of the table. Any bit of follow or draw the CB retains after contacting the 1 would be greatly dissipated as the CB bounces back down on the felt.

So I actually strive to get a little hopping action to help squat the CB. I concentrate following down through the CB, with my tip finishing on the felt.

JB Cases
10-27-2008, 07:51 AM
When I played with The Break Rak for 30 minutes I was able to make the cueball squat in the center of the table. That immediately translated into noticeable improvement that evening when I went down to the action tables to play cheap nine ball. Using the Break Rak I was able to focus on what I was doing physically a lot more because I didn't have to set up the rack each time I "broke".

I think that having good video of the top breakers and a tool like the break rack would indeed make jsut about anyone's hard break a lot better.

Shane's and how he does it? The kid grew up on the pool table and he has a good head on his shoulders. Almost all the top pros who started early and had good training have awesome breaks.

Bigkahuna
10-27-2008, 08:15 AM
Analyze this............

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80183

Athletic, but I'd say kind of gymnastic.

Patrick Johnson
10-27-2008, 08:40 AM
I think you're wrong in the sense that you're only looking at the collision and the transfer of energy from the cueball to the pack of balls. And as correct as that may seem on the surface, I've always stressed that the "efficiency" numbers bandied about has to also include the mechanics of the player.

It's no coincidence that the top breakers' hop and stop are so common. In a handwaving argument, it's clear that the professional top breakers like Shane and Bustamante (and anyone else who breaks really well) have some kind of mechanical efficiency to break so hard and in control with less effort. The hop is a result, but not necessarily what they're striving for, but it's a common result. What they're striving for is mechanical efficiency in the break. It is IMO a complete and utter waste (and too much tunnel vision) to consider trying to maximize the cueball-to-rack energy transfer efficiency because that's really nowhere near as important as maximizing the player's motion efficiency. That is, there's an acceptable energy loss at collision of the rack if the player's contact with the cueball has been maximized with the entire body, cue, and cueball collision in mind.

Additional handwaving, it's seems pretty obvious that when people emulate the Bustamante, Sigel, and Van Boening break, they see immediate and long-lasting results. I know when I'm breaking really well, the cueball happens to hop and squat. I'm not trying to hop; the cueball just hops.

We agree. The hop is a side effect, maybe an acceptable one as I said about Shane, but it's not a goal as suggested by the OP.

There's more doom and gloom in trying to "not hop."

Why do you say this? How have you tried to not hop? What was the doom and gloom result?

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
10-27-2008, 08:43 AM
Analyze this............
80183
Athletic, but I'd say kind of gymnastic.

If she could redirect the energy she spends getting herself into the air she'd move the balls farther. Pretty much the same principle as minimizing CB hop.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
10-27-2008, 08:47 AM
The idea that someone is clearly trying to maximize power over positive results? well this thought really amuses me.

I'm glad you like it, especially since it's your own. I didn't say that.

pj
chgo

T411
10-27-2008, 08:59 AM
I think it's a likely side effect of breaking as hard as possible. Maybe they don't know how to fix it. Maybe they think it's optimal for the same reason you do. Maybe you're right. I just don't think so.

Here's what I know:

It wastes power, something they're clearly trying to maximize.

The idea that it avoids collisions, especially that it avoids enough bad outcomes from collisions to matter more than the loss of power (and CB control), is highly speculative.

He scratched in one of those videos.

pj
chgo

Well maybe I misunderstood you. What is it that you are trying to say?

Tin Man
10-27-2008, 02:03 PM
One advantage of the hop back from the head ball is that the cueball doesn't rub along the cloth of the table while bouncing off of the rack to the center table zone. That means that you can hit the cueball with less topspin and still have it stop dead. With no hop you would have to hit it harder with more top spin to have it slide back then die, and a slight mis-hit could result in the cueball zinging forward into the trouble zone. That makes consistency more difficult.

Remember that consistent and effective is the goal, not maximum transfer of power. Shoot, even Ceebee's break rack video shows the hop and stop. (By the way, anyone that is willing to read 4 pages of break posts and doesn't own one of these needs to buy one TODAY!).

Bigkahuna
10-27-2008, 02:16 PM
I just watched the SVB break videos that Mosconiac posted. I haven't seen anyone make this comment but he is not crushing those balls. That break looks closer to 15 miles and hour than 20. Am I correct on this?

macneilb
10-27-2008, 02:23 PM
I think it's a likely side effect of breaking as hard as possible. Maybe they don't know how to fix it. Maybe they think it's optimal for the same reason you do. Maybe you're right. I just don't think so.

Here's what I know:

It wastes power, something they're clearly trying to maximize.

The idea that it avoids collisions, especially that it avoids enough bad outcomes from collisions to matter more than the loss of power (and CB control), is highly speculative.

He scratched in one of those videos.

pj
chgo

IMO the break isn't about 'maximizing your power' as you put it, its about hitting them hard enough to get a good spread, but keeping the CB on a leash. How many pros are there that do everything they can to "maximize their power" and break them hard as absolutely possible? Maybe Larry Nevel? and as huge as his break is, it isn't as well controlled as shanes. I don't think its technically a waste of power b/c it makes for good control of the CB. as a side note, watch shane break and tell me if he looks like he's got a loss of power ;)

Patrick Johnson
10-27-2008, 02:38 PM
Me:
It wastes power, something they're clearly trying to maximize.

T411:
The idea that someone is clearly trying to maximize power over positive results? well this thought really amuses me.

I'm glad you like it, especially since it's your own. I didn't say that.

Well maybe I misunderstood you. What is it that you are trying to say?

They try to mazimize power, but obviously not at all costs. In another post I said this about Shane's break:

He doesn't hit them as hard as he possibly could, but he hits them harder than it appears - I think that's what standing up does for him. He gets more power into the rack than most breaks that hop that much, so I'd have to say it's working for him

In other words, what I meant is that they try to maximize power within their control range, but their control range is quite a bit broader than most of ours so they can use more radical techniques.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
10-27-2008, 02:39 PM
IMO the break isn't about 'maximizing your power' as you put it, its about hitting them hard enough to get a good spread, but keeping the CB on a leash.

That's what I meant. See my last post above.

pj
chgo

poolpop63
10-27-2008, 02:44 PM
when you hit that 1 ball square, the cue ball has a certain amount of energy depending on how hard it is hit. The rack of balls has a certain amount of mass or resting energy. the cue ball can't go left...right..or down...so the only place for it to go is up..... nowhere but up.

Bigjohn
10-27-2008, 02:48 PM
i can't seem to get how he does it so consistently...and on top of that w/ such good control. anyone got a clue??

Actually, I think it is a near perfect break when the cue ball jumps "straight" up about a foot and back to the table where contact was made. No power is lost. It is a pure center hit.

T411
10-27-2008, 04:24 PM
They try to mazimize power, but obviously not at all costs. In another post I said this about Shane's break:



In other words, what I meant is that they try to maximize power within their control range, but their control range is quite a bit broader than most of ours so they can use more radical techniques.

pj
chgo

Okay I see what you are saying. Let me say this and maybe your saying some of the same things: a lot of people that excel at a sport have technique that one may not teach the average person. Many are gifted and see and adapt and do things in a way that many of us cant. Thank goodness some coach did not try to change Jamal Wilkes sweat but awkward jump shot. I do not think a coach is going to teach a kid to have a batting stance of Gary Sheffield, He had a lot of movement but he had a rhythm and could hit the ball. Many great pool players can get away with a longer than average bridge and it lets them see the shot different. Look at Keith?s awkward stroke. Things that a coach may not teach the average person but you cannot argue with results (well you can). I am sure that Shane has control of if he wants whitey to do and I?m sure he has a reason for it.

T411
10-27-2008, 04:25 PM
They try to mazimize power, but obviously not at all costs. In another post I said this about Shane's break:



In other words, what I meant is that they try to maximize power within their control range, but their control range is quite a bit broader than most of ours so they can use more radical techniques.

pj
chgo

Okay I see what you are saying. Let me say this and maybe your saying some of the same things: a lot of people that excel at a sport have technique that one may not teach the average person. Many are gifted and see and adapt and do things in a way that many of us cant. Thank goodness some coach did not try to change Jamal Wilkes sweat but awkward jump shot. I do not think a coach is going to teach a kid to have a batting stance of Gary Sheffield, He had a lot of movement but he had a rhythm and could hit the ball. Many great pool players can get away with a longer than average bridge and it lets them see the shot different. Look at Keith?s awkward stroke. Things that a coach may not teach the average person but you cannot argue with results (well you can). I am sure that Shane has control of if he wants whitey to do and I?m sure he has a reason for it.

Pushout
10-27-2008, 09:44 PM
Good answer and an old trick. I have known players who could break lights out with this one.

Me, too, and my break was similar to this, though not as well executed consistently.

ironman
10-27-2008, 10:01 PM
[QUOTE=Pushout]Me, too, and my break

Yep we used to see that quite often years ago, but I haven't seen it in some time now.

I was with Danny Medina years ago at this little tournament and he was in the finals.

The owner assigned the table and the bulb was flickering badly and Danny asked him if he could change it and the owner gave him some silly answer.

I volunteered to go down the street and buy a bulb and Danny said never mind, I'll take care of it. I knew what was coming. Sure enough, they flipped Danny broke 1st and launched the cue ball straight up in the air and knocke the bulb out.

The guy was furious, but changed the light and cleaned up the table. He then stated that if he knew Danny had done that on purpose he would kick him, but he knew nobody was that accurate.

That pissed Danny off and he was ordered to break the balls after the mess was cleaned up. Well, he loaded up and let er whistle again and bingo, he got it again.I near fell out of my chair laughing and that made the juy so mad that he kicked me out.

On the way out I told him that that was okay, I had been thrown into better joints.

TheConArtist
10-27-2008, 11:15 PM
One of the best Breaks that i have seen with the cueball going in the air and controlled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh7Phh7aliA

JJsooted
10-28-2008, 01:50 AM
One of the best Breaks that i have seen with the cueball going in the air and controlled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh7Phh7aliA
Wish you wouldve warned us that we were going to see that idiot before clicking on it.

Patrick Johnson
10-28-2008, 10:06 AM
when you hit that 1 ball square, the cue ball has a certain amount of energy depending on how hard it is hit. The rack of balls has a certain amount of mass or resting energy. the cue ball can't go left...right..or down...so the only place for it to go is up..... nowhere but up.

You forgot back (uptable), which is where the cue ball goes unless it's off the cloth when it hits the headball. If it leaves the table, there's energy being wasted lifting the cue ball.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
10-28-2008, 10:08 AM
One of the best Breaks that i have seen with the cueball going in the air and controlled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh7Phh7aliA

That's a terrible break - all testosterone and no control. He could easily hit that hard without getting that much hop - that would be controlling the CB.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
10-28-2008, 10:12 AM
Actually, I think it is a near perfect break when the cue ball jumps "straight" up about a foot and back to the table where contact was made. No power is lost. It is a pure center hit.

It's not a "pure center" hit - the only way the CB can hop is if it's off the cloth when it hits the headball.

And power is "lost" - the only way the CB can hop is if some power that could have been transmitted to the rack is instead lifting the CB.

In other words, if you hit the headball at the same speed but the CB doesn't hop, you get more OB movement.

pj
chgo

Bigkahuna
10-28-2008, 10:31 AM
I see spaces...........................

Aaron_S
10-28-2008, 10:36 AM
Has Shane's break never been clocked? Considering how everyone marvels at the effectiveness of his break, and that the measuring equipment is not hard to come by, I find it very hard to believe that nobody's measured his break speed yet.

Aaron

Bigkahuna
10-28-2008, 10:41 AM
Has Shane's break never been clocked? Considering how everyone marvels at the effectiveness of his break, and that the measuring equipment is not hard to come by, I find it very hard to believe that nobody's measured his break speed yet.

Aaron

If you look at Mosconiac's videos earlier in this post it does not seem like he is breaking hard. Certainly looks to be less than 20 MPH and perhaps closer to 15.

Cornerman
10-28-2008, 10:54 AM
If you look at Mosconiac's videos earlier in this post it does not seem like he is breaking hard. Certainly looks to be less than 20 MPH and perhaps closer to 15.
Completely anectdotal, but I'd say without a doubt that it's higher than 20 and closer to 25. His motion is just so relaxed that it doesn't seem all that fast. But, being right next to him you can hear how heavy his break is.

That being said, I don't know if he slows it down for the bar boxes.

I'm sure he's been clocked.

Fred

Bigjohn
10-28-2008, 10:57 AM
It's not a "pure center" hit - the only way the CB can hop is if it's off the cloth when it hits the headball.

And power is "lost" - the only way the CB can hop is if some power that could have been transmitted to the rack is instead lifting the CB.

In other words, if you hit the headball at the same speed but the CB doesn't hop, you get more OB movement.

pj
chgo

It's pure center as opposed to right or left... and the power loss would be so insignificant, if any at all, that it would be next to impossible to measure.

Aaron_S
10-28-2008, 11:39 AM
Completely anectdotal, but I'd say without a doubt that it's higher than 20 and closer to 25. His motion is just so relaxed that it doesn't seem all that fast. But, being right next to him you can hear how heavy his break is.

That being said, I don't know if he slows it down for the bar boxes.

I'm sure he's been clocked.

Fred

Yeah. I'm not sure what it is, but something makes me want to guess about 25 as well. Probably the sound combined with the spread he gets. If he really is getting up there around 25, then that's an awful lot of power for such a seemingly effortless motion.

Aaron

Cornerman
10-28-2008, 11:58 AM
Yeah. I'm not sure what it is, but something makes me want to guess about 25 as well. Probably the sound combined with the spread he gets. If he really is getting up there around 25, then that's an awful lot of power for such a seemingly effortless motion.

Aaron
I know that we were watching Neil Fujiwara (FartSniffer) breaking with a dual sensor speed meter at VF, and he was getting over 25 mph with his similarly effortless break stroke. Talent can be sickening.

Fred

Patrick Johnson
10-28-2008, 12:32 PM
It's pure center as opposed to right or left...

Oh, OK. I agree with that.

...and the power loss would be so insignificant, if any at all, that it would be next to impossible to measure.

Imagine if you could get underneath the CB and shoot it straight up in the air the same distance that Shane's CB hops up in the air. How much force would it take? Not a huge amount, but not "next to impossible to measure" either. I bet if you hit the CB horizontally with that amount of force it'd roll close to two table lengths. If one of the OBs rolled an extra two table lengths (or if four of them rolled an extra table width each), something good could happen.

pj
chgo

macneilb
10-28-2008, 12:59 PM
You forgot back (uptable), which is where the cue ball goes unless it's off the cloth when it hits the headball. If it leaves the table, there's energy being wasted lifting the cue ball.

pj
chgo


IMO, any way you slice it...he's not "wasting" energy because he's using the hop to control his CB...

Drew
10-28-2008, 01:24 PM
It's not a hard break at all. He's probably only putting about 50% into it anyway. His break shot is a jump shot. It hops on its way to the rack. That's why it pops up every time. He's very consistent with it because he hits the head ball dead center.

Watch some of the girls to see how to maximize your power. I'd guess GYK and XTP are breaking at 90% with control.

Patrick Johnson
10-28-2008, 01:28 PM
IMO, any way you slice it...he's not "wasting" energy because he's using the hop to control his CB...

How does he do that?

pj
chgo

Quesports
10-28-2008, 02:00 PM
That is so simple. He knows exactly when to hop, what kind of hop, where the other balls are during the hop and of course what type of english to hop it with! Presto the perfect hop break splained..
Dan

TheConArtist
10-28-2008, 02:31 PM
Its all about holding the cue at the Balance point i know Shane :wink:

KMRUNOUT
10-28-2008, 04:50 PM
Analyze this............

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80183

Athletic, but I'd say kind of gymnastic.

Sold! I would like to take immediate delivery. ;-)

Edit: damn! how do you get a picture to show when you quote? I wanted a second look at Jasmine! She has a pretty sporty break herself. No so much cue ball control though. Strangely that doesn't bother me in the least when watching her ...well, do just about anything.

KMRUNOUT

KMRUNOUT
10-28-2008, 05:04 PM
It's pure center as opposed to right or left... and the power loss would be so insignificant, if any at all, that it would be next to impossible to measure.

(playing devils advocate)...

This is not true. The power lost is quite measureable. All you have to do is determine the exact height the cueball goes up. This allows you to calculate the power used in raising the cueball to that height. The amount is not insignificant. I bet it is in the order of about 1-4% of the total power. I would say that at the upper exchelon of breaking, this little percent difference represents real iprovement.

That being said, there are limits to how hard you can hit the ball and not get a hop. I think over 20 mph (my guess) and you WILL get a hop. So you have to decide to break less than 20 mph, or accept the hop. Now the question is whether the energy lost to the cueball being slightly higher than the head ball outweighs the increased power of a faster speed. I would say that in all but a totally jacked up jump stroke, it does not. Hence, if you want maximum power, you must offer maximum velocity of the cueball to the headball with as square a hit as possible, and also as level a stroke as possible. You will get a hop and you just need to live with that. Someone show me video of a 25mph break in which the cueball does not hop at all. I would love to see this.

KMRUNOUT

KMRUNOUT
10-28-2008, 05:24 PM
IMO, any way you slice it...he's not "wasting" energy because he's using the hop to control his CB...

I don't think so. He is using his stroke and elevation (or lack thereof) to get the pop and the action out of the break, and a dead square hit on the head ball to control the cb. I don't think the hop is a technique at all. It is nothing he is striving for, simply a by product of his stroke and hit.
IMHO, of course...

KMRUNOUT

Drew
10-28-2008, 05:37 PM
(playing devils advocate)...

This is not true. The power lost is quite measureable. All you have to do is determine the exact height the cueball goes up. This allows you to calculate the power used in raising the cueball to that height. The amount is not insignificant. I bet it is in the order of about 1-4% of the total power. I would say that at the upper exchelon of breaking, this little percent difference represents real iprovement.

That being said, there are limits to how hard you can hit the ball and not get a hop. I think over 20 mph (my guess) and you WILL get a hop. So you have to decide to break less than 20 mph, or accept the hop. Now the question is whether the energy lost to the cueball being slightly higher than the head ball outweighs the increased power of a faster speed. I would say that in all but a totally jacked up jump stroke, it does not. Hence, if you want maximum power, you must offer maximum velocity of the cueball to the headball with as square a hit as possible, and also as level a stroke as possible. You will get a hop and you just need to live with that. Someone show me video of a 25mph break in which the cueball does not hop at all. I would love to see this.

KMRUNOUT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW1tsONEI_U Colin Colenso has a good video. The CB doesn't hop on the first of these which are well over 25mph.

Shane doesn't break anywhere near maximum power. When he does the CB jumps considerably higher. That's because the CB is either airborne or indented into the cloth at time of impact. Any energy lost during the hop can be adjusted if he decides to put a little bit more force into the CB. He breaks at a manageable and predictable speed. That's why his breaks always look the same.

The hop may have started by accident but today, he is fully aware of it and it is very controlled. Just like the rest of us, control comes at the price of force. He doesn't have the strongest break around but it is one of the most predictable.

KMRUNOUT
10-28-2008, 05:54 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW1tsONEI_U Colin Colenso has a good video. The CB doesn't hop on the first of these which are well over 25mph.

Shane doesn't break anywhere near maximum power. When he does the CB jumps considerably higher. That's because the CB is either airborne or indented into the cloth at time of impact. Any energy lost during the hop can be adjusted if he decides to put a little bit more force into the CB. He breaks at a manageable and predictable speed. That's why his breaks always look the same.

The hop may have started by accident but today, he is fully aware of it and it is very controlled. Just like the rest of us, control comes at the price of force. He doesn't have the strongest break around but it is one of the most predictable.

I will have to check this out. I can't watch youtube at work.

Thanks for the heads up!

Actually, I should modify my statement. I personally break anywhere from 15 mph up to my best of 27mph. The easiest speed for me to duplicate is 23-24 mph. I am pretty sure I have hit a few breaks at this speed or maybe more with what appears to be no hop. I find that a silly amount of draw helps with this. Though there have been those rare moments when I smash the headball and just plant the cue ball. No hop, no bounce back, just dead stuck like 6 inches from the rack. Still, this is 1 out of 500 or 1000 breaks-not worth striving for imo.

KMRUNOUT

Cornerman
10-28-2008, 06:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW1tsONEI_U Colin Colenso has a good video. The CB doesn't hop on the first of these which are well over 25mph..
I don't think you can say this considering that Colin actually loses that cueball to the right by a lot on the first break. Clearly, his next several breaks hop. The ones with most control hop.

Fred

Cornerman
10-28-2008, 07:02 PM
Though there have been those rare moments when I smash the headball and just plant the cue ball. No hop, no bounce back, just dead stuck like 6 inches from the rack. Still, this is 1 out of 500 or 1000 breaks-not worth striving for imo.

KMRUNOUTThat's just the thing, though. Of the several times that I've dead stopped the cueball on a hard break (no hop and hardly any movement of the cueball) none of those times would have ranked in my top thousand breaks as far as explosiveness goes. I don't know what anyone else's experience is, but that's mine. There's no reason for me to strive for that then since I've personally seen a decrease in results, not an increase.

Fred

Patrick Johnson
10-28-2008, 07:36 PM
That's just the thing, though. Of the several times that I've dead stopped the cueball on a hard break (no hop and hardly any movement of the cueball) none of those times would have ranked in my top thousand breaks as far as explosiveness goes. I don't know what anyone else's experience is, but that's mine. There's no reason for me to strive for that then since I've personally seen a decrease in results, not an increase.

Fred

As an engineer, how would you explain a decrease in power to the rack for a CB that doesn't hop (assuming the same CB speed)?

And by "hardly any movement of the CB" do you mean it doesn't even rebound back uptable? How would you explain that? When I get little or no hop on a strong break the CB rebounds back uptable a foot or two.

In fact, this rebound is a sign to me that I'm maximizing force into the rack - because the CB rebounds in exactly the opposite direction of the direction of force I want into the rack. When the CB hops I figure the equal/opposite force is simply pushing the head ball down into the cloth (isn't that how we get divots at the foot spot?).

pj
chgo

Drew
10-28-2008, 07:49 PM
I don't think you can say this considering that Colin actually loses that cueball to the right by a lot on the first break. Clearly, his next several breaks hop. The ones with most control hop.

Fred

It was an example as how the CB doesn't have to hop when breaking hard. The hop comes from an off-center contact point between CB and OB. In other words if the path of the CB center of gravity goes extends through the OB center of gravity then you won't get the hop. There are quite a few players who consistently break much harder than SVB with no hop at all.

Tommy-D
10-28-2008, 10:34 PM
> For a graphic demonstration of a player who's break I've raved about here before,but was never able to accurately describe,here you go. I saw him warming up at this tournament and watched exactly what you see here for 2 hours straight. Tommy D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O21AsO3g9Ms

mullyman
10-28-2008, 10:41 PM
Its all about holding the cue at the Balance point i know Shane :wink:

Most cues have a balance point about 3 fingers above the grip. I highly doubt that anyone holds their cue that far up.
MULLY

mullyman
10-28-2008, 10:42 PM
That's just the thing, though. Of the several times that I've dead stopped the cueball on a hard break (no hop and hardly any movement of the cueball) none of those times would have ranked in my top thousand breaks as far as explosiveness goes. I don't know what anyone else's experience is, but that's mine. There's no reason for me to strive for that then since I've personally seen a decrease in results, not an increase.

Fred

To be honest, some of my best breaks have been when I don't try to overdo it. Just using a natural stroke of the cue with medium/fast speed and getting a good solid contact with the head ball.
MULLY

Rod
10-29-2008, 12:42 AM
I think its not a major concern whether the c/b hops or not. What is important is the results. If you control whitey and make a ball or two, who can argue those results?

Rod

JB Cases
10-29-2008, 01:08 AM
Analyze this............

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80183

Athletic, but I'd say kind of gymnastic.

Um, do you have a frame by frame :-)

That, to me, is the hottest picture of a female player I have ever seen. Hot woman with a break like that - awesome combination.

JB Cases
10-29-2008, 01:11 AM
I used to play in a league with Cheyenne Pete Trujillo. Pete is one of the old time road players.

He would hit the 8 ball rack so softly on the head ball you could barely hear it. Looked like 2 miles an hour. With that break he would always make one, two, or three balls. I could never figure it out.

Timing I guess. No idea. It was a mystery but it was deadly.

Bigkahuna
10-29-2008, 05:18 AM
Um, do you have a frame by frame :-)

That, to me, is the hottest picture of a female player I have ever seen. Hot woman with a break like that - awesome combination.

No, I don't have any video. I just found that somewhere and downloaded.

Cornerman
10-29-2008, 05:53 AM
It was an example as how the CB doesn't have to hop when breaking hard. The hop comes from an off-center contact point between CB and OB. In other words if the path of the CB center of gravity goes extends through the OB center of gravity then you won't get the hop. There are quite a few players who consistently break much harder than SVB with no hop at all.
Sorry for being unclear. What I'm saying is that I don't think you can say that on his first break that his cueball doesn't hop. I think does hop, but it's tough to tell because he's lost the cueball to the right, plus the video is fuzzy.

Given that every other one of his breaks, the cueball hops, there's enough evidence to suggest that his first one does as well. It just happened to catch the cushion on the right such that it didn't fly off the table.

Fred

KMRUNOUT
10-29-2008, 10:17 AM
I don't think you can say this considering that Colin actually loses that cueball to the right by a lot on the first break. Clearly, his next several breaks hop. The ones with most control hop.

Fred

My thoughts exactly. I looks like he has some draw on that first one too.

KMRUNOUT

KMRUNOUT
10-29-2008, 10:27 AM
As an engineer, how would you explain a decrease in power to the rack for a CB that doesn't hop (assuming the same CB speed)?

And by "hardly any movement of the CB" do you mean it doesn't even rebound back uptable? How would you explain that? When I get little or no hop on a strong break the CB rebounds back uptable a foot or two.

In fact, this rebound is a sign to me that I'm maximizing force into the rack - because the CB rebounds in exactly the opposite direction of the direction of force I want into the rack. When the CB hops I figure the equal/opposite force is simply pushing the head ball down into the cloth (isn't that how we get divots at the foot spot?).

pj
chgo

Well, first off I think the main idea behind what Fred is saying is that he is NOT an engineer (to my knowledge), and hence is more interested in the results rather than the explanation behind them. I guess you could assemble a team of engineers and scientists, philosophers, etc. and analyze the break and the physics behind a flat hit on the head ball and no bounce, but I think the bottom line is that this is only usefull for discussion and novelty sake. The most important thing is the results of the break. If a bounce produces better results, I want a bounce!

However, if I were to guess, I think the most likely explanation for when the cueball stops dead near the rack is a loose rack. This would also support Cornerman's claim that those were often not his best breaks and didn't have as much explosive power. Also, he didn't say anything about a decrease in power. He said that there was a difference in the effectiveness of the break, and the explosive quality. I suppose "explosive" implies power...but I have plenty of times had the rack "explode" appart with a not so powerful hit, and had it not explode appart so much with a very powerful hit (both cases a square hit on the head ball).

KMRUNOUT

Cornerman
10-29-2008, 11:03 AM
As an engineer, how would you explain a decrease in power to the rack for a CB that doesn't hop (assuming the same CB speed)?For the hop itself, given the fact that every break will be struck with slight elevation, then what has to happen for a hop not to occur? Something not part of the normal break collision. An extra force? A force that's not normally found on a good hopping break? It can't be that the cueball lands right when it strikes, or else it will still hop. No, I think for no hop to occur, the cueball must not hit the front ball square at all. Maybe it hits the head ball on the way down just prior to landing, or hits the head ball just on the way up (after a slight compression of the cloth) and gets "trapped" by the head ball slightly. Either way, IMO, it's actually a sign of a non-square hit (in the veritical direction).

That's my guess since my experience tells me that no hop = bad break for me.

In fact, this rebound is a sign to me that I'm maximizing force into the rack - because the CB rebounds in exactly the opposite direction of the direction of force I want into the rack. Yes, that's what I'm saying. Others were talking about some notion of little cueball motion resulting in a better break. I was responding to that, pretty much saying that this isn't what I experience. Physics agrees with me on this one.

Fred

Cornerman
10-29-2008, 11:04 AM
Well, first off I think the main idea behind what Fred is saying is that he is NOT an engineer (to my knowledge),
Last I knew, my 1040 says something about an engineer.

Fred <~~~ better ask my wife is she's the engineer in the family

Patrick Johnson
10-29-2008, 12:20 PM
Me:
As an engineer, how would you explain a decrease in power to the rack for a CB that doesn't hop (assuming the same CB speed)?

Fred:
For the hop itself, given the fact that every break will be struck with slight elevation, then what has to happen for a hop not to occur? Something not part of the normal break collision. An extra force? A force that's not normally found on a good hopping break? It can't be that the cueball lands right when it strikes, or else it will still hop. No, I think for no hop to occur, the cueball must not hit the front ball square at all. Maybe it hits the head ball on the way down just prior to landing, or hits the head ball just on the way up (after a slight compression of the cloth) and gets "trapped" by the head ball slightly. Either way, IMO, it's actually a sign of a non-square hit (in the veritical direction).

Here's what I'd call a perfectly square hit: the CB hits the head ball when the CB's direction of force is straight through the OB's center of mass (just before hitting the cloth on the way down). When that happens the CB will bounce back off the rack (assuming a good rack, of course) at the same angle that it came in at, which will look like no hop (since it looked like no hop going in). Maybe you think this is the hop you see on a "good hopping" break? I don't think so - I think if you can see the rebounding hop more easily than you can see the going-in hop, then it's not a "square hit".

Here's what I'd call a square-enough hit: the CB hits the head ball and the cloth just about simultaneously (its direction of force is either exactly through the head ball's center of mass or just a little higher or lower depending on whether it hits coming in or rebounding out or exactly between). When this happens the CB will also bounce back off the rack at just about the same angle that it came in at, which will again look like no hop.

... my experience tells me that no hop = bad break for me.

My experience (and my theory) tells me the opposite.


Me:
In fact, this rebound is a sign to me that I'm maximizing force into the rack - because the CB rebounds in exactly the opposite direction of the direction of force I want into the rack.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Then I guess I still don't understand what you're saying, because I think we're saying different things.

pj
chgo

jsp
10-29-2008, 12:44 PM
... my experience tells me that no hop = bad break for me.
My experience (and my theory) tells me the opposite.
And my experience tells me it makes no significant difference at all, at least only concerning the spread of the balls.

Assuming the CB doesn't hop over a foot, I'm having a hard time believing that there would be any significant difference in spread of the balls with a hopping CB compared to a non-hopping CB...significant enough for anyone to say that it was a "good" break or a "bad" break.

KMRUNOUT
10-29-2008, 12:47 PM
Last I knew, my 1040 says something about an engineer.

Fred <~~~ better ask my wife is she's the engineer in the family

Ha ha...oops. My mistake. I think you still get the point of what I was saying: That I interpreted your comment as saying that you were much less concerned about the physics involved and more interested in the result.

Curious, what kind of engineer are you?

Sorry for the wrong assumption,

KMRUNOUT

Patrick Johnson
10-29-2008, 04:16 PM
And my experience tells me it makes no significant difference at all, at least only concerning the spread of the balls.

I think it certainly makes a significant difference when the hop is more than a moderate one.

Assuming the CB doesn't hop over a foot, I'm having a hard time believing that there would be any significant difference in spread of the balls with a hopping CB compared to a non-hopping CB...significant enough for anyone to say that it was a "good" break or a "bad" break.

I'd probably agree with that (although I'd prefer less hop if I can get it without sacrificing something else). I'm emphasizing (maybe too strongly) the principle that less hop = more spread in general and the practice of designing/practicing your break with that in mind (as one important factor among other important factors).

pj
chgo

TheConArtist
10-29-2008, 05:28 PM
The Balance point on my cue is right in the middle of the grip and personally he does hold the cue further up on the grip when he is breaking then when he is shooting. Not saying this is where the hop is coming from but it gives him a more a longer backstroke and a leveler cue action on the break.