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View Full Version : The US Open didn't forfeit world champion for no show


showtruck2020
10-25-2008, 02:18 PM
I was at the US Open and Darren Appelton didn't show, so they just let him play the next day. Some other people were late so they forfeited their match. I think this changed the whole tourney.

emptypockets
10-25-2008, 02:48 PM
I was at the US Open and Darren Appelton didn't show, so they just let him play the next day. Some other people were late so they forfeited their match. I think this changed the whole tourney.

Not sure if you're referring to Darren's first match or not but just stating that "Darren Appelton didn't show, so they just let him play the next day" may be incorrect. Barry was advised and knew (prior to any draw or the start of the event) that he (Darren) and Marcus Chamat were still playing in the Euro Tour & the earliest they could arrive here was Sunday eve. Thanks.

midwest1p
10-25-2008, 02:53 PM
i was there with the guy darren played and the times got pushed back twice to "accomodate"for lack of a meaner word i feel it was wrong and i know if i was a day and a half late for work id have heat on me

showtruck2020
10-25-2008, 02:57 PM
Not sure if you're referring to Darren's first match or not but just stating that "Darren Appelton didn't show, so they just let him play the next day" may be incorrect. Barry was advised and knew (prior to any draw or the start of the event) that he (Darren) and Marcus Chamat were still playing in the Euro Tour & the earliest they could arrive here was Sunday eve. Thanks.

If it would have been an unknown player, I don't think they would be able to do that. If you ask me rules are rules, the same for each and every player. They should decide wich tourney they are going to play in.

emptypockets
10-25-2008, 03:04 PM
If it would have been an unknown player, I don't think they would be able to do that. If you ask me rules are rules, the same for each and every player. They should decide wich tourney they are going to play in.

I totally agree with 'ya. I was just providing the info that I had learned in regards to Barry knowing about their arrival. Thanks.

showtruck2020
10-25-2008, 03:10 PM
That would be ok if every player could call in and say I'm busy, I'll be there later. If that happened the tourney would never get started on time and they would be late for the the following event if they make it to the finals. I think we need to stick to the rules at the players meeting. What is the players meeting for if you don't have to go by the rules?

watchez
10-25-2008, 03:32 PM
On a similiar note, next year I hear they are going to let some players have their matches early, if needed - kinda like bowling league when you can pre-bowl your games if you are not there on league night.

deep
10-25-2008, 03:42 PM
I think you need to cut him some slack. He had two weeks of hard matches out in Manila and pulled of the biggest win of this career (so far). Then after a very short break went to play on the euro tour, where he had a chance to become European No1, and then on a plane straight to the open. I'm pretty sure that would wear most people out.

Its not as thought he was deliberately late.

Johnnyt
10-25-2008, 04:02 PM
A) the players are wrong for over-booking tournaments they can't show on time for.

B) Barry wrong for cutting slack to them.

Johnnyt

poolpop63
10-25-2008, 04:02 PM
This is just the kind of thing that make people laugh at pool. We need to be organized, act organized and stay organized. If a player is late for his game and the rule says a time limit is in effect, u loose if u go past that time. How can one players delay outweigh the responsibility of the other 250+ that were on time. Do we need to give a test to stay in the USA. Lets use our heads here.

masonh
10-25-2008, 04:14 PM
A) the players are wrong for over-booking tournaments they can't show on time for.

B) Barry wrong for cutting slack to them.


that sums it up pretty well.

butterflycues
10-25-2008, 04:24 PM
that sums it up pretty well.
AMEN, Butterflycues

sjm
10-25-2008, 04:46 PM
I completely disagree. The conflict with the Eurotour event was known well in advance, and Eropean players asked whether they could be accommodated. The European players were advised that they would be accommodated in advance. This is better than chancing having the US Open without guys like Souquet, Appleton and Peach.

US players may be in the same situation one day and I believe they would be accommodated similarly. The right precedent has been set here, the one that best advances the cause of having exciting events with the most diverse and complete international fields possible.

I commend the organizers of the US Open for bending the way that they did.

AuntyDan
10-25-2008, 04:51 PM
Yes, but consider for a moment that this is the US Open and for the organizer being able to boast a current World Champion in the playing roster should be a selling point to sponsors. If there was sufficient advance notice of the delay it is the organizer who should decide if this is OK or not.

As a player I'm sure it's frustrating but as there are precious few successful Pro tournaments in the US anything that is likely to help them to survive seems like a good thing to me.

watchez
10-25-2008, 04:54 PM
I completely disagree. The conflict with the Eurotour event was known well in advance, and Eropean players asked whether they could be accommodated. The European players were advised that they would be accommodated in advance. This is better than chancing having the US Open without guys like Souquet, Appleton and Peach.

US players may be in the same situation one day and I believe they would be accommodated similarly. The right precedent has been set here, the one that best advances the cause of having exciting events with the most diverse and complete international fields possible.

I commend the organizers of the US Open for bending the way that they did.
You are right - we should wait until Efren is over his bladder infection, Mike Sigel is hitting them good again, and Louie Roberts is resurrected from the grave. Can't believe we had the US Open without them.

Two or three years ago, the DCC gave Corey and Efren a bye in one of the middle rounds of 9 ball because they were scheduled to play the finals of the one pocket. That made sense too.

pro9dg
10-25-2008, 05:22 PM
Yes, but consider for a moment that this is the US Open and for the organizer being able to boast a current World Champion in the playing roster should be a selling point to sponsors. If there was sufficient advance notice of the delay it is the organizer who should decide if this is OK or not.

As a player I'm sure it's frustrating but as there are precious few successful Pro tournaments in the US anything that is likely to help them to survive seems like a good thing to me.

What is the matter with you guys. Is the US getting that insular?

Without this concession Barry's field would have lacked FOUR reigning World Champions - Darren plus Daryl Peach, Ralf Souquet and Niels Feijen.

You cannot tell me that they didn't add credibility to the event.

Or do you just want to play amongst yourself? If that is the case then it cannot be called an OPEN

satman
10-26-2008, 08:41 AM
A) the players are wrong for over-booking tournaments they can't show on time for.

B) Barry wrong for cutting slack to them.

Johnnyt

But the top dogs get cut slack at most tournies. I had to wait 45 minutes for my one pocket match with Shannon Daulton at DCC 2 years ago. 11am start time and they wouldn't even put him on the clock. They kept telling me they were trying to find him. He slept in. Shannon apologized to me, but it didn't make it right.

JB Cases
10-26-2008, 09:15 AM
Well apparently it's not Open, the draw isn't fair, and the scheduling is selective. I am sure that if Joe Blow shortstop had a regional tour stop that conflicted with the US Open then he would have not been granted an extra day to get there.

The answer to all this is quite simple QUIT SCHEDULING TOURNAMENTS ON TOP OF EACH OTHER.

The US OPEN has been in existence for 33 years. It has seniority. All other tours, tournaments, exhibitions and so on SHOULD respect that and allow their players the opportunity to play in that event.

This year all the Guiness Tour players had ZERO opportunity to win the US Open because they HAD to play on the Guiness tour event or they quite possibly wouldn't be INVITED back the following year.

The Eurotour knew full well when the US Open is. Now I don't know who had their schedule out first but it seems to be a simple affair for Barry Behrman to get together with all these people scheduling tours and singel events and GET ONE WEEK clear for his event.

I completely disagree with special treatment. For waht that is worth I think Neils Feijen SKIPPED the Eurotour so that he focus on the US Open. I bet he feels like shit knowing that he could have played in both.

The whole magic to the US Open used to be that it was open to anyone, any male who get to the table that is. That anyone could step up and play with the best in the world on an even playing field. Now, with the closed door draws and special arrangements that doesn't seem to be true any more.

My friend who was at the US Open told me a story about a 16 year old girl who was celebrating her 16th birthday at the US Open. She had been coming since she was 4 years old and looked forward to it every year.

Now, with anti-family policies, the crazy rules, the special treatment for some players, absolute rude disrespect to others and more I wonder if the US Open hasn't lost some of the magic.

I loved going there. The atmosphere used to be quite electric. I staked a few players to play and it was a lot of fun to sweat their runs at the trophy. I have made cases for the winners. I have seen my friends win it.

I hope the US Open continues. I hope that Barry finds a way to make it consistently exciting and eagerly anticipated without all the drama that marred this year's event.

Oh, and congratulations Mika. Tough beat Ronnie. Bridesmaid two years in a row ain't bad though.

ososlow
10-26-2008, 09:41 AM
It stinks for the people who have to wait for them. Play a match and wait for two days for your next opponent who just played a match and is in stroke now.:yikes:

JB Cases
10-26-2008, 10:04 AM
What is the matter with you guys. Is the US getting that insular?

Without this concession Barry's field would have lacked FOUR reigning World Champions - Darren plus Daryl Peach, Ralf Souquet and Niels Feijen.

You cannot tell me that they didn't add credibility to the event.

Or do you just want to play amongst yourself? If that is the case then it cannot be called an OPEN

Um no it's open to any player who shows up on time. I am pretty sure that no concessions were granted to players who had car trouble, family issues, missed planes, natural disasters, etc... so wy should concessions be granted to players who play in conflicting events?

The US Open has credibility already whether any Europeans show up or not. Was Mika's victory less credible because Alex Pagulayan, Dennis Orcullo, Efren Reyes, Wu Chia Ching, Fong Pang Chao, Oliver Ortmann, and other high caliber world champions weren't there this year?

That's a pretty unfair comment to make that the Americans want to shut the Europeans out. No one said that at all. All we said was make it fair for EVERYONE.

A lot of players scrimp and save, beg on online forums for sponsorship, take vacation days off of work, to invest a week of their lives playing in the US Open. It's really ****ING unfair to all those players to grant special privileges to a few players. What about the guy who drove 3000 miles to get there and is playing on his last $1000? Why should he not get the benefit of a first round forfeit if a world champion can't get there on time? What about when a group of players make a cross country drive together and some of them have to play each other in the first round? What's the difference between them and players who flew halfway around the world and probably have all their expenses covered by sponsors? Why should distance and amount of players from a country matter?

It's not the US Open if most of the players are basically cannon fodder and they are treated that way blatantly. What would the US Open be if weren't for 150 players who have almost zero chance of winning it providing $600 donations to the prize fund? So just slap all those players in the face with special treatment as has happened here and see how long it take before they stop donating.

All those players want is for one week to feel like they belong amongst the world's best. If the tournament direction itself goes out it's way to remind them that they don't then they won't come. At least that's how I see it.

!Smorgass Bored
10-26-2008, 10:14 AM
Well apparently it's not Open, the draw isn't fair, and the scheduling is selective. I am sure that if Joe Blow shortstop had a regional tour stop that conflicted with the US Open then he would have not been granted an extra day to get there.

The answer to all this is quite simple QUIT SCHEDULING TOURNAMENTS ON TOP OF EACH OTHER.



You know what, John ? I agree with you. The problem as I see it, is that there are only 52 weekends in the calendar year to schedule tournaments..

I have spent an enormous amount of time in the hospital on a Demerol drip pondering a solution and this is what I came up with:
I propose adding a new month to the calendar. The month of Spotasaurus. The month of Spotasaurus will have seven weekends in it. VIOLA !

Doug
(if Spotasaurus is too long a name, we could simply name it SPICE...... imo) :)

.

JB Cases
10-26-2008, 10:19 AM
I agree Doug but we don't have 52 high profile events. So it seems to me that the few promoters that are staging high profile events could get together and figure it out.

poolpop63
10-26-2008, 10:30 AM
this get back to my comment about getting organized, and staying organized. But when u have tournaments poping up all over the country and world, the players must then choose and realize their limits. That way no one feels any ill affects. If u are there u play ... if u r not there... u don't play. Seems simple and organized to me. Unless there is a BETTING agenda no one knows about. But I guess thats a different story.

!Smorgass Bored
10-26-2008, 10:30 AM
I agree Doug but we don't have 52 high profile events. So it seems to me that the few promoters that are staging high profile events could get together and figure it out.


Yeah, well, you didn't need any Demerol to figure THAT out.

Doug
(I may just give up 'thinking')

speakers
10-26-2008, 10:57 AM
I completely disagree. The conflict with the Eurotour event was known well in advance, and Eropean players asked whether they could be accommodated. The European players were advised that they would be accommodated in advance. This is better than chancing having the US Open without guys like Souquet, Appleton and Peach.

US players may be in the same situation one day and I believe they would be accommodated similarly. The right precedent has been set here, the one that best advances the cause of having exciting events with the most diverse and complete international fields possible.

I commend the organizers of the US Open for bending the way that they did.

BUT in all fairness, were all the other players that registered, made travel arrangements and showed up on time accomidated? And was it made clear to EVERY player that signed up that there would be some delays for SOME players? Were they told that depending on who they drew out to play they may have to sit and wait an extra day or two? I agree the overlapping scheduling sucks and it's unfortunate, but it's a choice that each player need to make for themselves, not the TD choice. Does anybody know if this was announced at the players meeting? Or were all the participants warned in advance somehow? And when were the unfortunate opponents told that they would have to wait? That would suck to go to your 11:00am Sunday match and be told that you have to wait...wait until when? 3:00? 7:00? Monday? When? Were any of the opponents ASKED if that was okay? Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

pro9dg
10-26-2008, 11:30 AM
The answer to all this is quite simple QUIT SCHEDULING TOURNAMENTS ON TOP OF EACH OTHER.

The US OPEN has been in existence for 33 years. It has seniority. All other tours, tournaments, exhibitions and so on SHOULD respect that and allow their players the opportunity to play in that event.

This year all the Guiness Tour players had ZERO opportunity to win the US Open because they HAD to play on the Guiness tour event or they quite possibly wouldn't be INVITED back the following year.

The Eurotour knew full well when the US Open is. Now I don't know who had their schedule out first but it seems to be a simple affair for Barry Behrman to get together with all these people scheduling tours and singel events and GET ONE WEEK clear for his event.

I completely disagree with special treatment. For waht that is worth I think Neils Feijen SKIPPED the Eurotour so that he focus on the US Open. I bet he feels like shit knowing that he could have played in both.


It is not often that we disagree John but I'm not with you on this one.
The ultimate goal must be to schedule MORE events on top of each other.
A major event every week on three different continents and that would mean that the game has grown (and a lot more JB cases sold).

The Euro Tour is scheduled several years ahead. I am not certain but I think that the US Open dates were not firm until a few months ago.

Barry Behrman has put up the money for this event for the last 33 years
and can do exactly as he pleases. If players do not like his policies then they can vote with their feet next year.

So he wants all the World Champions in his event so he makes a few concessions to achieve that. It is his perogative - 'he who pays the piper calls the tune'.

Players like Appleton, Peach, Majid, Drago are all not quite where they want to be on the European Rankings so they could not afford to miss the last Euro Tour. Furthermore, there is a Tour ruling that if two (or more) events clash or overlap with the Euro Tour then that gets priority.

Niels broke this rule by opting out of the Euro Tour and going to the US early. But he may avoid a reprimand if he did not play on the opening day of the US Open.

The bunch of European players exercised their worth in marketing value to the tournament and found an accommodating promoter.

muttley76
10-26-2008, 11:41 AM
It is not often that we disagree John but I'm not with you on this one.
The ultimate goal must be to schedule MORE events on top of each other.
A major event every week on three different continents and that would mean that the game has grown (and a lot more JB cases sold).

The Euro Tour is scheduled several years ahead. I am not certain but I think that the US Open dates were not firm until a few months ago.

Barry Behrman has put up the money for this event for the last 33 years
and can do exactly as he pleases. If players do not like his policies then they can vote with their feet next year.

So he wants all the World Champions in his event so he makes a few concessions to achieve that. It is his perogative - 'he who pays the piper calls the tune'.

Players like Appleton, Peach, Majid, Drago are all not quite where they want to be on the European Rankings so they could not afford to miss the last Euro Tour. Furthermore, there is a Tour ruling that if two (or more) events clash or overlap with the Euro Tour then that gets priority.

Niels broke this rule by opting out of the Euro Tour and going to the US early. But he may avoid a reprimand if he did not play on the opening day of the US Open.

The bunch of European players exercised their worth in marketing value to the tournament and found an accommodating promoter.


This is probably the most biased post I have ever read on az(and that is saying something). There is NO DOUBT that there was preferential treatment, and I think the fact that you are from Europe is clouding your judgement. I don't care where you are from of how good you play, if you aren't willing to play by the same standards as everyone else(I don't care about the TD's decisions, if you are a decent person and the TD said you could flat out cheat, would you?), then DON'T GO. Exercising fair market value? That holds no water. You should just say that they were told they could have an advantage, and they took it. And if they didn't like where they were on the Eurotour, then either commit to the Eurotour fully, or too bad, if you want to come to the open. Your choice, IMO

satman
10-26-2008, 11:46 AM
It is not often that we disagree John but I'm not with you on this one.
The ultimate goal must be to schedule MORE events on top of each other.
A major event every week on three different continents and that would mean that the game has grown (and a lot more JB cases sold).

The Euro Tour is scheduled several years ahead. I am not certain but I think that the US Open dates were not firm until a few months ago.

Barry Behrman has put up the money for this event for the last 33 years
and can do exactly as he pleases. If players do not like his policies then they can vote with their feet next year.

So he wants all the World Champions in his event so he makes a few concessions to achieve that. It is his perogative - 'he who pays the piper calls the tune'.

Players like Appleton, Peach, Majid, Drago are all not quite where they want to be on the European Rankings so they could not afford to miss the last Euro Tour. Furthermore, there is a Tour ruling that if two (or more) events clash or overlap with the Euro Tour then that gets priority.

Niels broke this rule by opting out of the Euro Tour and going to the US early. But he may avoid a reprimand if he did not play on the opening day of the US Open.

The bunch of European players exercised their worth in marketing value to the tournament and found an accommodating promoter.

I think, if I didn't know this is advance, before I paid my entry. I showed up and attended the players meeting and then was told, "the player you drew is still in a tournament in Europe, he should be here sometime tomorrow, but we're not sure what time you'll play." I'd be madder than he**. Plus, what happens if he gets there for the first round the next day, and they have trouble getting ahold of me? Do I get forfeited for being late to my match? I'd probably tell em to give me my money back, and come back home.

You're right, it's Barry's tournament. He's put together the most successful event in the world. Lasting that many years is a great achievement. So he has the right to do whatever he wants. But most of us lower level players, won't be none too happy.

Snapshot9
10-26-2008, 11:49 AM
I agree Doug but we don't have 52 high profile events. So it seems to me that the few promoters that are staging high profile events could get together and figure it out.

John ... Are you volunteering to teach each one of them how to email? .. :grin: And I believe Warren Kiamco was the Bridesmaid to John Schmidt, not Ronnie Alcano.

pro9dg
10-26-2008, 12:13 PM
I think, if I didn't know this is advance, before I paid my entry. I showed up and attended the players meeting and then was told, "the player you drew is still in a tournament in Europe, he should be here sometime tomorrow, but we're not sure what time you'll play." I'd be madder than he**. Plus, what happens if he gets there for the first round the next day, and they have trouble getting ahold of me? Do I get forfeited for being late to my match? I'd probably tell em to give me my money back, and come back home.

You have a fair point there. But if the match schedule was posted at the same time as the draw then that should cover it. If however it was posted at one time and then rescheduled to the next day then the opponent would have a legitimate grievance. If care had been taken in the scheuling then nobody would have been any the wiser. It is not written in stone that the scheduling of matches should relate exactly to how they are drawn out

pro9dg
10-26-2008, 12:23 PM
This is probably the most biased post I have ever read on az(and that is saying something). There is NO DOUBT that there was preferential treatment, and I think the fact that you are from Europe is clouding your judgement.

I operate in pool on a global basis and I am certainly not biased. My judgement is not clouded just because of my country of residence. I am sure that most people who know me would agree with that.

I also agree with what was done for the Kuwaiti players. The Middle East is a hot bed of emerging talent and you could attract 30-40 players from there next year.

I could shoot the same charge back at you. Is it pull up the drawbridge we are being invaded!

watchez
10-26-2008, 12:27 PM
I operate in pool on a global basis and I am certainly not biased. My judgement is not clouded just because of my country of residence. I am sure that most people who know me would agree with that.

I also agree with what was done for the Kuwaiti players. The Middle East is a hot bed of emerging talent and you could attract 30-40 players from there next year.

I could shoot the same charge back at you. Is it pull up the drawbridge we are being invaded!

I don't think the US Open needs 30-40 players from Kuwait if exceptions have to be made. Wasn't the field pretty much full this year - like every year.

pro9dg
10-26-2008, 12:30 PM
I understand that Barry wants to open past 256 players

cardiac kid
10-26-2008, 01:14 PM
I understand that Barry wants to open past 256 players

I certainly understand why Barry wants to open the event up. Next years event will probably be made up of a vast majority of players from outside the United States. They will be the only ones financially able to play:D!

Lyn

worldison2
10-26-2008, 02:10 PM
I propose adding a new month to the calendar. .


Is this the DOUG-orian calendar?

swrooster
10-26-2008, 03:13 PM
I operate in pool on a global basis and I am certainly not biased. My judgement is not clouded just because of my country of residence. I am sure that most people who know me would agree with that.

I also agree with what was done for the Kuwaiti players. The Middle East is a hot bed of emerging talent and you could attract 30-40 players from there next year.

I could shoot the same charge back at you. Is it pull up the drawbridge we are being invaded!
A different league, the PGA, honors the event and not the players. The field is set by a certain time and everyone is bound by the event rules and scheduled times regardless of their world rankings or personal appeal for marketing purposes. Directors and players discredit any event when they request, expect or by position alter or adjust any of the schedule after the deadline has passed. We all can bring status and honor to pool events by treating them with honor.

muttley76
10-26-2008, 11:46 PM
I operate in pool on a global basis and I am certainly not biased. My judgement is not clouded just because of my country of residence. I am sure that most people who know me would agree with that.

I also agree with what was done for the Kuwaiti players. The Middle East is a hot bed of emerging talent and you could attract 30-40 players from there next year.

I could shoot the same charge back at you. Is it pull up the drawbridge we are being invaded!


I have zero problem with any player playing in events, but they should have the decency to hold themselves to the same standards as all the rest. Just because someone gives you an advantage doesn't mean you have to take it. The players should NEVER be bigger than the event. NONE of them. I am all for allowing every human being to play in the open, just on the same playing field. And for what it is worth, the draw should never be manipulated in any way either. It should just be the old, boring, fair to everyone US open. No special treatment to anyone, including past champions, people who travel 100,000 miles(or kilometers for that matter), or any newly discovered alien species. All I ask is that EVERY player hold themselves to the same standards. Is that really so much to ask?

showtruck2020
10-26-2008, 11:54 PM
I have zero problem with any player playing in events, but they should have the decency to hold themselves to the same standards as all the rest. Just because someone gives you an advantage doesn't mean you have to take it. The players should NEVER be bigger than the event. NONE of them. I am all for allowing every human being to play in the open, just on the same playing field. And for what it is worth, the draw should never be manipulated in any way either. It should just be the old, boring, fair to everyone US open. No special treatment to anyone, including past champions, people who travel 100,000 miles(or kilometers for that matter), or any newly discovered alien species. All I ask is that EVERY player hold themselves to the same standards. Is that really so much to ask?


you are 100% correct

JB Cases
10-27-2008, 01:34 AM
It is not often that we disagree John but I'm not with you on this one.
The ultimate goal must be to schedule MORE events on top of each other.
A major event every week on three different continents and that would mean that the game has grown (and a lot more JB cases sold).

The Euro Tour is scheduled several years ahead. I am not certain but I think that the US Open dates were not firm until a few months ago.

Barry Behrman has put up the money for this event for the last 33 years
and can do exactly as he pleases. If players do not like his policies then they can vote with their feet next year.

So he wants all the World Champions in his event so he makes a few concessions to achieve that. It is his perogative - 'he who pays the piper calls the tune'.

Players like Appleton, Peach, Majid, Drago are all not quite where they want to be on the European Rankings so they could not afford to miss the last Euro Tour. Furthermore, there is a Tour ruling that if two (or more) events clash or overlap with the Euro Tour then that gets priority.

Niels broke this rule by opting out of the Euro Tour and going to the US early. But he may avoid a reprimand if he did not play on the opening day of the US Open.

The bunch of European players exercised their worth in marketing value to the tournament and found an accommodating promoter.

I disagree on a lot of levels. Let's start with the last point that the European players exercised their "marketing value". I doubt that this was part of the discussion. In fact I saw no evidence of the participation of any particular players being marketed. I am quite positive that 99% of those who attended the US Open as spectators would have made the trip even if any or all of the Europeans were not there.

I think that the Eurotour rule is also silly. If there is a higher profile event going on then allow the top players to choose it if they want to. That just means that lower ranked players on the Eurotour will get a chance to improve their standings. It seems like restraint of trade to forbid a player from attending an event which pays out much much more than your own.

As for Barry Behrman changing the rules at will and giving preferential treatment because he puts on the event.......so now you are saying that it's ok for promoters to do whatever they want as long as they pay the bills? That it's alright to give some players special treatment but not others? I do not subscribe to that idea.

I don't know what caused the scheduling conflict. Most likely it was Barry scheduling on top of the Eurotour event. The point is though that if it happens then the players should have the right to choose, without penalty, the higher profile event. I think that there are certain marquee events that should not conflict and that it's incumbent on the all the promoters to get together and make sure that they don't so that each event can have the maximum number of stars in attendance. Scheduling more events on top of each other doesn't mean that there are going to be more players to fill them. If the sport grows then more events become a neccessity and when that happens there will be levels of tournaments for the players to choose from.

The US Open however stands apart. It is the one tournament that didn't grant slots, that was open to anyone with a penis, and didn't play favorites. Now, that has changed and I hope it changes back.

"If the players don't like it then they can vote with their feet." Let's play what if and assume that half of the field did just that. Would Barry be able to continue the US Open? So you are encouraging him as a promoter to continue this type of action that is a slap in the face of all the other participants? What would the US Open look like without all those non-world champions putting up the majority of the prize fund? I think that you know the answer is that the US Open would probably cease to exist. Barry is grasping for players which is why he made these concessions and opened Pandora's box. I highly doubt that he shares your attitude of screw em' I pay the bills and if they don't like it then they don't have to come.

If another promoter followed your reasoning and put on an event down the street with 40,000 added, $200 entry fee, and had an barred list with all the stars on it then I guarantee you it would rob Barry of most of the participants in his event. Whoever did that would be crucified for killing the US Open.

I don't want that. The players don't want it. The fans don't want it.

JimS
10-27-2008, 03:17 AM
Why make a rule if you can't make exceptions and exercise authority?

VitoCorleone
10-27-2008, 06:39 AM
This is what Ralf Souquet says on his homepage:


All Euro Tour Players had the promise by organizer Barry Behrman to start their play on Day 2.

Only thereby it was possible, that the Europeans could first play the Swiss Open and than the US Open.


Nothing to do with a WC Title.

Bamacues
10-27-2008, 07:59 AM
This is what Ralf Souquet says on his homepage:


All Euro Tour Players had the promise by organizer Barry Behrman to start their play on Day 2.

Only thereby it was possible, that the Europeans could first play the Swiss Open and than the US Open.


Nothing to do with a WC Title.

In my opinion, this would only be fair if all of those players opponents were notified in advance that they would not have to play on the first day as well. That would have saved them the rush to get to the Open, a day's expenses, lodging, etc, and possibly a day's pay from their real jobs.

It is truly unfortunate that any person or group of people are allowed a variance in standards or protocol in any event. Everyone who puts down their money based on a certain known set of conditions are entitled to enforcement of the rules based on those conditions and rules.

It would truly be a shame to see the Open fold like so many other tournaments have, but this sort of problem could make it even more difficult to draw the crowd of players and fans from the major support base in the future.

The old saying goes "The rules were made to be broken". Hopefully, that is not the case.

Tom In Cincy
10-27-2008, 08:02 AM
Johnnyt,

In your opinion this is wrong, I can appreciate your opinion, but that doesn't make what happened at Barry's tournament wrong, it is just his way of conducting business.

He's done it his way for 33 years and built this 9 ball tournament to be billed as the most prestigeous event in 9 ball WORLD Wide.

Pool players over booking tournaments? how do you expect players to make any money in this business, they have to play in as many tournaments as possible to maintain a decent living.

Barry has been doing this grace period for European, Philipinos and Russian players for years. I gather you didn't know that.

And just in case you didn't know, Allan Hopkins (World Champion) was forfieted in the first round because of a no-show and Santo Sambajon JR was not allowed to play after arriving late Sunday nite.

Players that played in the Euro-Tour did so with the consent of Barry with his conditions. The Players have to make a living.

A) the players are wrong for over-booking tournaments they can't show on time for.

B) Barry wrong for cutting slack to them.

Johnnyt

satman
10-27-2008, 01:12 PM
This is what Ralf Souquet says on his homepage:


All Euro Tour Players had the promise by organizer Barry Behrman to start their play on Day 2.

Only thereby it was possible, that the Europeans could first play the Swiss Open and than the US Open.


Nothing to do with a WC Title.

And I was given a start time for my match on the 2nd day, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it. But, if I show at my start time, and the guy I ain't there, it ain't right to hold off the start and not put him on the clock, no matter what his name is, or the reason. What is the main thing to consider when you show up for a match. To be mentally prepared is important. I don't mind waiting a little extra if matches are running behind, but I don't wanna get jacked around because someone stayed out drinking too late, or gambling all night either.

Cuebacca
10-27-2008, 01:46 PM
In my opinion, this would only be fair if all of those players opponents were notified in advance that they would not have to play on the first day as well. That would have saved them the rush to get to the Open, a day's expenses, lodging, etc, and possibly a day's pay from their real jobs.

I'm surprised no one mentioned this until this post. It's not just special treatment alone, it's special treatment at other peoples' expense.

Island Drive
10-27-2008, 01:57 PM
But the top dogs get cut slack at most tournies. I had to wait 45 minutes for my one pocket match with Shannon Daulton at DCC 2 years ago. 11am start time and they wouldn't even put him on the clock. They kept telling me they were trying to find him. He slept in. Shannon apologized to me, but it didn't make it right.

Same thing happened too me with Steve Mizerak at the masters in Vegas, he no showed, missed the match, they later rescheduled it for another time, the tourney/event directors were crooks, and there was payout problem, but the Miz should of said MY BAD, instead, he took the high road.

Island Drive
10-27-2008, 01:59 PM
It is not often that we disagree John but I'm not with you on this one.
The ultimate goal must be to schedule MORE events on top of each other.
A major event every week on three different continents and that would mean that the game has grown (and a lot more JB cases sold).

The Euro Tour is scheduled several years ahead. I am not certain but I think that the US Open dates were not firm until a few months ago.

Barry Behrman has put up the money for this event for the last 33 years
and can do exactly as he pleases. If players do not like his policies then they can vote with their feet next year.

So he wants all the World Champions in his event so he makes a few concessions to achieve that. It is his perogative - 'he who pays the piper calls the tune'.

Players like Appleton, Peach, Majid, Drago are all not quite where they want to be on the European Rankings so they could not afford to miss the last Euro Tour. Furthermore, there is a Tour ruling that if two (or more) events clash or overlap with the Euro Tour then that gets priority.

Niels broke this rule by opting out of the Euro Tour and going to the US early. But he may avoid a reprimand if he did not play on the opening day of the US Open.

The bunch of European players exercised their worth in marketing value to the tournament and found an accommodating promoter.

No single player is more important than the sport they serve....woulda' never happened in golf.

juegabillar
10-27-2008, 04:10 PM
John ... Are you volunteering to teach each one of them how to email? .. :grin: And I believe Warren Kiamco was the Bridesmaid to John Schmidt, not Ronnie Alcano.

Ronnie Alcano was runner-up to Shane last year, and again this year to Mika.

Rodolfo Luat was runner-up to John Schmidt.

pro9dg
10-28-2008, 04:23 AM
No single player is more important than the sport they serve...

That is a cliche that masks an underlying problem with pool.

It has no super superstars. Until we give our professional players a little more value then the game will never develop a fan base.

Right now there is a selected band of players who look at the game from an international perspective.
MIKA IMMONEN
RALF SOUQUET
THORSTEN HOHMANN
MARCUS CHAMAT
DARREN APPLETON
FABIO PETRONI
JOHNNY ARCHER
NIELS FEIJEN
NICK vd BERG
IMRAN MAJID
EARL STRICKLAND
DARYL PEACH
VINCENT FACQUET
SHANE VAN BOENING
DENNIS ORCULLO
RONNIE ALCANO
FRANCISCO BUSTAMANTE
CHARLIE WILLIAMS
RAJ HUNDAL
MAX EBERLE
ROBERTO GOMEZ
EFREN REYES
WU CHIA CHING
CHANG JUNG LIN
YANG CHING-SHUN
SATOSHI KAWABATA
TONY DRAGO
THOMAS ENGERT
NAOYUKI OI
RODNEY MORRIS
OLIVER ORTMANN
ALEX PAGULYAN
And a few other borderline cases. These Players will turn up on any continent to play.

What we need to see is them given more status and development of their characters. Pool at it?s best isn?t a sport ? it?s SHOW BUSINESS.

Use their personalities to sell events to the public.

It?s not exactly Nuclear Physics is it?

sjm
10-28-2008, 04:11 PM
One thing's for sure, American pool is down right now. In my view, the key to its re-mergence is to have American players compete against the many stars of Europe and Asia as often as possible.

If ensuring that this happens means making some minor accommodations to elite foreign players that are willing to travel overseas to play in America, as much as it rubs some the wrong way and as easy as it is to argue it's unfair, a very strong argument can be made in favor of it.

That's why I'm pleased to see that the stars of Europe were accommodated this year at the US Open.

JBCases is 100% right that the real solution is to have foreign pool concerns work together to minimize, even eliminate, the frequency with which major pool events across the globe have scheduling conflicts with each other. As we try to move in the direction of that solution, however, I will celebrate it and commend it anytime I see tournament organizers offering minor accommodations to foreign players to ensure fields of the highest possible quality in the handful of open, internationally diverse events on the pool calendar, as it will, in my opinion, increase the quality of the pro pool product wordwide.

book collector
11-07-2010, 03:08 PM
I'm confused about why some players were allowed to play later and Allen Hopkins and Santos Sambojan were not ?
The players need to start having their own tournaments, that way they can share the money between people who actually play the game rather than share it with a "omnipotent benefactor" who does all the work for them.

billbOK
11-07-2010, 03:27 PM
I'm confused about why some players were allowed to play later and Allen Hopkins and Santos Sambojan were not ?
The players need to start having their own tournaments, that way they can share the money between people who actually play the game rather than share it with a "omnipotent benefactor" who does all the work for them.

Did you see that this thread is 2 years old? The situation was special that year because an eurotour stop finished the day before the US open was planning to begin.

Pushout
11-07-2010, 03:33 PM
Did you see that this thread is 2 years old? The situation was special that year because an eurotour stop finished the day before the US open was planning to begin.

Yup, old news. I thought it looked funny and finally noticed a date of a post.

nancewayne
11-07-2010, 04:11 PM
Agreed and well said !

A) the players are wrong for over-booking tournaments they can't show on time for.

B) Barry wrong for cutting slack to them.

Johnnyt

book collector
11-07-2010, 05:08 PM
Did you see that this thread is 2 years old? The situation was special that year because an eurotour stop finished the day before the US open was planning to begin.

I'm sorry I didn't realize it was an old post. Thanks for wakin me up lol.
Actually it is relevant in a way.
From another thread I read that some Euro players were allowed to start late this year because of the overlap.

fat Albert
11-08-2010, 08:56 AM
Once again you have so many experts who do not have all the info and rush to conclusions. You don't know what was or wasn't agreed on prior to entry. FEW STATUES ARE ERECTED FOR CRITICS BUT FOR THOSE WHOM THEY ARE CRITICAL OF MANY STATUES HAVE GONE UP. When you have your own tournament and do for the pool world what Barry has you can make the rules. If you think Tiger Woods and other big name players don't get preferrential treatment you are wrong.ie late starting times, particular parings along with other request.

Bill S
11-08-2010, 10:14 AM
I'm confused about why some players were allowed to play later and Allen Hopkins and Santos Sambojan were not ?
The players need to start having their own tournaments, that way they can share the money between people who actually play the game rather than share it with a "omnipotent benefactor" who does all the work for them.

JUST THE FACTS!

The first round of the US Open was scheduled to take nearly a day and a half to be completed. The draw was done the night before play started. A few of the Euro players were re-scheduled to play the second day. The draw was not changed, just their staring times. Only players that had spoke with Barry were scheduled for later in the first round. For what it's worth, it wasn't just Euro players! The American player that was re-scheduled was Frankie Hernandez. There were a couple of others, but I can't remember who it was.

In any case, only players that had pre-arranged to play later in the round were given that request.

In the case of Allen Hopkins, the draw and schedule had been done and he called at the last minute and told Barry he wouldn't be there. That is what caused the forfeit.

I can't comment on Santos, as I can't remember him even being there.

There was no funny business going on!!!

Jay H. can confirm these facts.

jay helfert
11-08-2010, 10:19 AM
JUST THE FACTS!

The first round of the US Open was scheduled to take nearly a day and a half to be completed. The draw was done the night before play started. A few of the Euro players were re-scheduled to play the second day. The draw was not changed, just their staring times. Only players that had spoke with Barry were scheduled for later in the first round. For what it's worth, it wasn't just Euro players! The American player that was re-scheduled was Frankie Hernandez. There were a couple of others, but I can't remember who it was.

In any case, only players that had pre-arranged to play later in the round were given that request.

In the case of Allen Hopkins, the draw and schedule had been done and he called at the last minute and told Barry he wouldn't be there. That is what caused the forfeit.

I can't comment on Santos, as I can't remember him even being there.

There was no funny business going on!!!

Jay H. can confirm these facts.

Confirmed! No favoritism to anyone for anything! Except for Barry's little wiener dog Buddy. Bill, Ken and I all got to babysit Buddy while we were working. I actually went out on the floor with Buddy in my arms one time! Not to watch a hit, only to answer a question. :grin:

pt109
11-08-2010, 12:15 PM
In 2006 Alex Pagulayan gave fair notice that he would like to play
the second day.
In a money added tournament with spectators paying for seating
it would be insane not to accomodate a great player (also the
defending champion).
This is an elitist game and rightfully so.If you want to be treated
like a champion,do some more drills.
I have played at least one guy in the US Open who needed the 6.
He would not get the same consideration if I was running it.These
players don't pay union dues,the cream should be treated like
royalty.They fill the seats.

However,once the matches are scheduled,everyone should be
treated equal.If you're late go to the b-side.

In weekly tournaments with no money added everyone should
be treated equal...if you're late you're toast.

In DCC-like tournaments with multiple disciplines going on,
accomodations should be made for everyone.

I love the US Open and have found it to be run very well.

just my opinion

chevybob20
11-08-2010, 01:04 PM
I didn't notice this was so old until I noticed the Smorg post. Miss ya Smorg.