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9 ball
10-27-2008, 07:33 AM
I have always broke from the centre of the table when playing pool as I find the side rail break difficult to do, but what I would like to know is if the object of the break in all forms of pool is to hit the head ball dead centre to get a well spread rack why do none of the pros break from the centre?

Opting instead to break from the side which causes the white to hit the head ball at an odd angle which in turn decreases the power running through the rack to get an effective spread thus causing the player problems when trying to run out because clusters form on the table.

Mike Templeton
10-27-2008, 07:35 AM
I think that most pros find that it is easier to control the cue ball to keep from scratching when breaking from the side.

I don't seem to get as good a spread either from the side, but my odds of scratching decrease greatly on a side break. I also think that when breaking 10-ball, where more force is needed for a better spread, you will find more good players breaking from closer to the middle of the table.

Mike

dbyap
10-27-2008, 07:50 AM
From what I have read and experienced, the side break allows for the making for the 1 ball in 9 ball and 10 ball easily, that way the layout is alot easier to map. Also the wings balls are designed to go easier from a side break in 9 ball

SpiderWebComm
10-27-2008, 07:59 AM
I break closer to the center of the table as well. For me personally, I find I squat the CB way more often breaking from there. I make a ball as often as people breaking from the side, so it's worth it. If I keep squatting the CB, I'm gonna like it way more than my opponent in the long-run.

Not saying you can't squat it well from the side. I'm just saying for me, it's easier.

billbOK
10-27-2008, 08:18 AM
First of all, the way you break depends of many variables : the game you play, the tables you are playing on, the breaking rules (break box or kitchen, dry breaks or not) and the way the rack is made (tapped ball or not, 9 ball or 1 ball on the spot...), etc...

The principals objectifs of the break shot are :

1- to pocket one ball (or much)
2- to control the cueball (not scratching, position around the center of the table...)
3- to control the 1 ball, if not researching to pot it in the side pocket (9 ball essentially).

To reach these goals you will have to adapt your break to the situation of play you are confrontate (game, table, rules...). The paramaters that you can modify are ensentially :

1- the position of the cueball, "the angle of attack of the rack" ;) (in 9 ball pocketing 1ball or wing ball)
2- the proportion of object ball you hit : full ball, half ball, etc... (in 9 ball pocketing 1 ball or wing ball)
3- the power
4- side spin (CB control)
5- stop shot, follow through or draw (CB control).

On any given situation you will have to adapt your break to reach the most important goals : pocket a ball and cue ball control. It is not so easy to do than to describe it ;) Once you get it is much or at least as difficult to reproduce it...:wink:

Bigkahuna
10-27-2008, 08:31 AM
Joe Tucker Racking secrets nuff said...............:thumbup:

ceebee
10-27-2008, 09:51 AM
Yeah, you guys need to buy a book about breaking, so you can learn the theory & application for each game. Then you can buy Joe's Racking Secrets CD to learn some higher level skills.

The Break Shot is important, it sets the stage for things to come & it is the link between games to set the stage again.

Cameron Smith
10-27-2008, 10:07 AM
As mentioned above Joe Tuckers Racking secrets will answer all of your questions.

But in short, the reason for breaking from the side rail is to make the 1 ball and wing ball in a 9 ball rack. If those two balls are not going in you should start moving towards the centre of the table, as there is a more even transfer of energy and gets more balls moving at a faster rate.

Mike Templeton
10-27-2008, 10:22 AM
With all due respect, Charlie and kahuna, I bought Joe's original book, I have watched the DVDs, and I have your break book (Charlie), and I still don't get any consistency in ball spread when I read racks or ball making in any game when I follow the directions in the book. I have always said that I don't have the greatest break, but I don't see how so many get so much help from these publications to consider it a bible.

I just watched quite a bit of the US Open and I watch, attend, and play in many tournaments, and I usually don't see anyone string racks because of the way that they break or read racks. On rare occasion I see someone make the wing ball consistently in a 9-ball match, but I never see the same player make it consistently more than 1 match in a row (with the possible exception of Corey).

I know that it gives a little insight into what COULD happen if balls are racked a certain way, or touching a certain way, but I don't believe it gives exactly what happens in any rack, or even a decent percentage of what actually happens.

edit---In my opinion, speed is the most critical factor in making balls on the break (especially in 9-ball), but that doesn't seem to be a big secret in a book.

Again this is just my humble opinion. If anyone can show me that they can have certain balls not touching in a rack and make balls, or make the wing ball consistently on more than one table. I'd certainly like to see it (on tape or in person).

Mike

Joe T
10-27-2008, 10:59 AM
With all due respect, Charlie and kahuna, I bought Joe's original book, I have watched the DVDs, and I have your break book (Charlie), and I still don't get any consistency in ball spread when I read racks or ball making in any game when I follow the directions in the book. I have always said that I don't have the greatest break, but I don't see how so many get so much help from these publications to consider it a bible.

I just watched quite a bit of the US Open and I watch, attend, and play in many tournaments, and I usually don't see anyone string racks because of the way that they break or read racks. On rare occasion I see someone make the wing ball consistently in a 9-ball match, but I never see the same player make it consistently more than 1 match in a row (with the possible exception of Corey).

I know that it gives a little insight into what COULD happen if balls are racked a certain way, or touching a certain way, but I don't believe it gives exactly what happens in any rack, or even a decent percentage of what actually happens.

edit---In my opinion, speed is the most critical factor in making balls on the break (especially in 9-ball), but that doesn't seem to be a big secret in a book.

Again this is just my humble opinion. If anyone can show me that they can have certain balls not touching in a rack and make balls, or make the wing ball consistently on more than one table. I'd certainly like to see it (on tape or in person).

Mike

Hey Mike,

Sorry you're having a tought time with the rack. How's your eye sight when it comes to seeing all those little spaces cuz they're all matter. If I were you I would tap in a rack of 9 ball so they all tight and then place a small piece of paper between balls to simulate & experiment with different spaces.

As for consistency making corner balls I can ony say look at all the rule changes caused by corner balls going in too easily and if you watched the open you know they are all looking to make the corner ball by reading the racks trying to adjust to it and quite often its the deciding factor.

One very recent dominant example would be Donnie Mills beating Warren Kiamco 26 to 20 playing even rack your own 9 ball. At 20-20 I HEARD donnie B&Ran the last 6 racks to win the cash. Warren then suggested they play again, loser racks and he offered the 8. Not to take away anything from Donnies playing cuz you still have to run the balls after you make one but I would say the rack played a pretty big part in the match here.

I'll try to shoot a video this week but can't promise it. Actually that might be kind of stupid on my part but maybe I can do it so only those who have the info will understand it.
Do me a favor though and tap in a rack and then experiment with that paper idea.

Mike Templeton
10-27-2008, 11:07 AM
Hey Mike,

Sorry you're having a tought time with the rack. How's your eye sight when it comes to seeing all those little spaces cuz they're all matter. If I were you I would tap in a rack of 9 ball so they all tight and then place a small piece of paper between balls to simulate & experiment with different spaces.

As for consistency making corner balls I can ony say look at all the rule changes caused by corner balls going in too easily and if you watched the open you know they are all looking to make the corner ball by reading the racks trying to adjust to it and quite often its the deciding factor.

One very recent dominant example would be Donnie Mills beating Warren Kiamco 26 to 20 playing even rack your own 9 ball. At 20-20 I HEARD donnie B&Ran the last 6 racks to win the cash. Warren then suggested they play again, loser racks and he offered the 8. Not to take away anything from Donnies playing cuz you still have to run the balls after you make one but I would say the rack played a pretty big part in the match here.

I'll try to shoot a video this week but can't promise it. Actually that might be kind of stupid on my part but maybe I can do it so only those who have the info will understand it.
Do me a favor though and tap in a rack and then experiment with that paper idea.
Thanks Joe. I will try that. I'd give anything if I could get just a little consistency in my break ball making percentage.

And again, I'm not saying that it doesn't work. I just can't get a grasp on it. I hear of the corner ball flying in, and I heard about the Donnie Mills match too, but I never seem to SEE anything like that in person. I did see the WPA World 9-Ball (or whatever it was that Peach won), where they were breaking about 8 or 10 mph and the corner ball was going consistently.

I'll let you know if I have any luck.

Mike

leehayes
10-27-2008, 11:09 AM
I have always broke from the centre of the table when playing pool as I find the side rail break difficult to do, but what I would like to know is if the object of the break in all forms of pool is to hit the head ball dead centre to get a well spread rack why do none of the pros break from the centre?

Opting instead to break from the side which causes the white to hit the head ball at an odd angle which in turn decreases the power running through the rack to get an effective spread thus causing the player problems when trying to run out because clusters form on the table.

I have a similar problem but backwards. I can't break from the center. I always miscue or hit the head ball of center.
I'm not complaining because I have a very powerful break from the side and almost always pocket balls on the break. Especially in 9 ball.

In 9 ball i break about 3 inches from the rail using the rail for my bridge to keep the cue level. I hit slightly low right english and make sure I aim to hit a little to the right of center( I break from the left side) and hit nice and hard. This of course comes with alot of practice to get it right.
As for 8 ball, same position same low right and I aim to just barely hit the head ball. This of course hits the second ball down. Both breaks scatter balls nicely and if you are fortunate the 8 ball break will pocket the 8 occasionally.

cleary
10-27-2008, 11:33 AM
You can hit the 1 ball just as square from the side as you can from the center. The balls are round so a 100% hit can happen from anywhere.

People break from the side to make the wingball. JT - racking secrets is a great investment. Also, the Breakrak. Im thinking very seriously about buying my own.

To me, the most important part of the break is a solid hit on the 1 ball. Try slowing down your stroke until you find a good break speed.

blueridge
10-27-2008, 11:51 AM
Breaking from the side in 9-ball tends to give you the best chance to pocket a ball on the break. A strong breaker can play the front ball in the side pocket and the wing ball in the corner pocket on the side from where he is breaking, making at least 1 of 2 pretty consistently on certain equipment.

Breaking from around the center of the table gives you better cue ball control, and it's easier to hit the front ball squarely, which is the most important part of a good break.

AnitoKid
10-27-2008, 11:57 AM
In 9-ball, i break from the side rail, near the second diamond.
From what I have experienced, such allows one to make the 1 ball
and wing ball (though not all the time).

In 10-ball, 8-ball, and rotation, i break near the center of the table.

I try my best to put all my weight into my cue during breaks.
I guess it's all about timing, too.


:)

SpiderWebComm
10-27-2008, 12:03 PM
Joe:

Why can I squat the ball closer to the center rather than from the rail? Does that have to do with perception / dominant eye, etc?

Dave

cleary
10-27-2008, 12:10 PM
Joe:

Why can I squat the ball closer to the center rather than from the rail? Does that have to do with perception / dominant eye, etc?

Dave

Im certainly no Joe Tucker but ive had a lot of help with my break from a lot of well knowns....

From the side rail, you have to elevator the butt of your cue slightly more than from center. This may have something to do with it. If you ease up on your break, you might have better results. I started throwing my cue when breaking from the side, and I am controlling the cueball very well and getting a nice spread. Like I said, Im not expert, but its expert advice that has helped me.

KMRUNOUT
10-27-2008, 12:19 PM
Perhaps the aspect of the game that I have spent the most time and study on is the break. Here is what I have come up with:

1) As others have said, it makes no difference where you break from as far as hitting the 1 ball square is concerned. That option is there from anywhere behind the headstring. What might be confusing you and giving you trouble with breaking from anywhere but the center is this concept that you want to aim the center of the cue ball at the center of the one ball. The easiest way to visualize this is to put the cueball where ever you want to break from, rack the balls, but remove all the balls in the rack except the one ball (head ball). Now, how would you hit it in order to stop the cue ball dead (in other words shooting straight into the one ball)? That is how you should aim your break.
2) Try all this at a stop shot speed. Once you get the feel and the visual for that, start experimenting with hitting (very slightly) above or below center. The purpose of this is to control whether the cue ball is coming back a few feet, stopping dead, or creeping forward. Ideally, you don't want the cue ball going forward-that almost never is helpful. In 9-ball, the best is to have the cueball creep back maybe 2-4 feet, since that is where the 1 ball goes. If you break fairly hard, it is common to have the one ball end up on the head rail near where you stand when you break. By pulling the cue ball back a foot or two or 3, you have a decent chance of a shot anyway. The other purpose for being able to consistently hit a little low or high is that this controls where the one ball goes. A little draw makes the one hit the side rail further up table near the rack end, while a little follow can bring the one ball back more (closer to you). This is the main key to making the one in the side, or playing position on the one.
3) All this time, you should be practicing hitting the break the same exact speed, which is like a regular hard stop shot. The way you might stroke the break to do a table length stop shot, or draw back some, that is the speed to start with. However, now it is time to work on hitting harder and softer. That is because the speed that you hit the head ball effects where the balls go. A harder hit makes the one ball come futher past the side pocket (towards you), whereas a soft hit makes it come off the rack at a more forward angle. Also, a hard hit makes the wing ball more likely to hit the side rail, while a soft hit makes it more likely to hit the end rail. You might find that at 18 mph, the wing ball goes right in, but if you really smash it, it hits the side rail and does not go in. The goal, obviously, is to be able to deliver a variety of speeds at will with accuracy and repeatability.
4) One you master the above technique, which you can demonstrate by breaking racks and not letting the cueball touch a rail, you can mess around with "cut breaks", in which you do NOT hit the head ball 100% square. Personally, I don't think this is necessary, given all the options above. However, sometimes no matter what you do a table just won't give up balls. Cutting the head ball gets tough to control. Experiment with caution.

Once you master skills 1-3, the simplest way to get a ball on the break when you are having trouble is to do everything the same, but just vary the starting position of the cueball. Sometimes the same exact hit from the 1/4 position (on head string 1/2 way between center and rail) that doesn't pocket a ball will if you move 3 inches to the left or right. Generally speaking, consensus opinion is that the wing ball goes in easier from the side rail position. I have found that on the average this is true, but varies considerably from table to table. In the tournements I play in, they usuallly restrict breaking to the box (between the two diamonds). I almost always place the cueball right on the front corner of the box, and adjust the other variables until I make the corner ball.

One other thing: if you place your cue on the end rail to break, you should get rid of that habit ASAP. There are all kinds of problems with it, but the main one is that you are anywhere from 1-2 feet further from the rack. Why make it any harder. Also, I think it is very difficult to break at full power from this position. Breaking from the side rail is different. Anyone I ahve ever seen with a good break breaks with their hand on the cloth and the cue ball right up on the head string. (Or with the cue resting on the side rail and their bridge firmly around it.) The best recipe for a horrible cue ball on the break is to make your normal bridge up on the end rail!!

Hope this helps,

KMRUNOUT

Hail Mary Shot
10-27-2008, 12:22 PM
here is my personal observation with regards to the 2 breakshots playing a 15 ball rack.

my chances of making a ball and able to pocket more balls on every break is high when I break from the side rail rather than breaking near the middle. not to mention that I got more power and more action.

Bigkahuna
10-27-2008, 12:27 PM
With all due respect, Charlie and kahuna, I bought Joe's original book, I have watched the DVDs, and I have your break book (Charlie), and I still don't get any consistency in ball spread when I read racks or ball making in any game when I follow the directions in the book. I have always said that I don't have the greatest break, but I don't see how so many get so much help from these publications to consider it a bible.

I just watched quite a bit of the US Open and I watch, attend, and play in many tournaments, and I usually don't see anyone string racks because of the way that they break or read racks. On rare occasion I see someone make the wing ball consistently in a 9-ball match, but I never see the same player make it consistently more than 1 match in a row (with the possible exception of Corey).

I know that it gives a little insight into what COULD happen if balls are racked a certain way, or touching a certain way, but I don't believe it gives exactly what happens in any rack, or even a decent percentage of what actually happens.

edit---In my opinion, speed is the most critical factor in making balls on the break (especially in 9-ball), but that doesn't seem to be a big secret in a book.

Again this is just my humble opinion. If anyone can show me that they can have certain balls not touching in a rack and make balls, or make the wing ball consistently on more than one table. I'd certainly like to see it (on tape or in person).

Mike

Mike,

I am there with you. My break used to look like a car accident. After the collision you didn't know what was going to happen! I can break consistently at over 20 MPH and get up to 24 but crushing the balls was not really effective for me.

My coach worked with me and showed me that backing off the speed increased the chances of making the one ball. Just try a few racks hard and notice where the one goes then back off the speed and keep watching where that one goes. I now use this as my break speed and reading the rack usually nets me the wing ball.

In 8 ball I probably make the 8 more than anyone in my area. One night 3 times in 6 racks in league play. I have always liked that rack anyhow against better players as it usually doesn't open up the table as much.

KMRUNOUT
10-27-2008, 12:28 PM
One other thing: if you place your cue on the end rail to break, you should get rid of that habit ASAP. There are all kinds of problems with it, but the main one is that you are anywhere from 1-2 feet further from the rack. Why make it any harder. Also, I think it is very difficult to break at full power from this position. Breaking from the side rail is different. Anyone I ahve ever seen with a good break breaks with their hand on the cloth and the cue ball right up on the head string. (Or with the cue resting on the side rail and their bridge firmly around it.) The best recipe for a horrible cue ball on the break is to make your normal bridge up on the end rail!!

Hope this helps,

KMRUNOUT


Just a quick note: I say this with the assumption that you have a good stable closed bridge. If you do not, then this is a much more important issue to resolve than the break. I don't think anyone could overstate how important a rock solid, unmoving, stable bridge is to accurate shooting. This is true for any bridge, open or closed (or mechanical!!)

Pushout
10-27-2008, 01:16 PM
I've never been able to break well from the side. As I said to another member in a pm recently, I learned to break on or near the center spot. I learned this from a student at SUNY Binghamton, who learned from Gene Nagy. Hitting the cue ball 1/2 to a full tip below center, with the butt jacked up an inch or two, I was making a ball more often than not and squatting the cue ball in or near the center of the table, with a shot on the 1. For some reason I never figured out, I also moved the 9 ball toward one of the bottom corner pockets, often making it.
After it became common to break from the side rail, I tried it for several years without much, if any success. When I returned to my original break, I never got to execute it as well as I did in the beginning, maybe jacking up too much.
Recently, on a trip to the local room, I started using a break that I came up with in the late '90s before I moved South. One diamond out from the top rail {either side} and one diamond out from the side rail. Seems to get more force without a lot more speed. I've used it in both 9 Ball and 10 Ball quite successfully. I've used this on both 4 1/2 x 9 and 3 1/2 x 7. At home I can't practice blast breaks well because of space constraints.

Joe T
10-27-2008, 01:32 PM
Joe:

Why can I squat the ball closer to the center rather than from the rail? Does that have to do with perception / dominant eye, etc?

Dave

Hey Dave, I would have to see it to offer a real guess. There's no consistency here, there's some that can squat form the rail and not center and there's some the other way around. Some can squat with an open bridge but not a closed.

But I think you're on the right track for perception as one possible problem. Quite often when I do practice my break (very rare now adays) I find I have to approach the cue ball in a wierd way and maybe aim in what might be a little weird on the 1 ball also and this is either perception or a formula to work out the timing of my mechanics when breaking.

I think the breakrak would help you learn from the side rail break quicker than anything. But knowing you I would be surprised if you don't already have one in which case I'm gonna have to hop in the car and drive about 5hrs SW.

Bigkahuna
10-27-2008, 01:37 PM
Hey Dave, I would have to see it to offer a real guess. There's no consistency here, there's some that can squat form the rail and not center and there's some the other way around. Some can squat with an open bridge but not a closed.

But I think you're on the right track for perception as one possible problem. Quite often when I do practice my break (very rare now adays) I find I have to approach the cue ball in a wierd way and maybe aim in what might be a little weird on the 1 ball also and this is either perception or a formula to work out the timing of my mechanics when breaking.

I think the breakrak would help you learn from the side rail break quicker than anything. But knowing you I would be surprised if you don't already have one in which case I'm gonna have to hop in the car and drive about 5hrs SW.

Joe drive five hours north and see me instead! That Spider dude he is all messed up!;)

Bigkahuna
10-27-2008, 01:42 PM
Yeah, you guys need to buy a book about breaking, so you can learn the theory & application for each game. Then you can buy Joe's Racking Secrets CD to learn some higher level skills.

The Break Shot is important, it sets the stage for things to come & it is the link between games to set the stage again.

Charlie I am going to purchase one of your Breakraks. Just real estate really is sucking right now. Nobody seems to care when us poor real estate agents are not doing well. :( I think this will really improve how I am hitting them. I suspect there will be a few others in my area that will also want one after trying it out.

dbyap
10-27-2008, 01:55 PM
the first break sounds alot like what svb uses, generalized of course.