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View Full Version : "Reyes Thinks Thin, Kills Shot"


Cuebacca
10-27-2008, 04:49 PM
There was an Efren 1-pocket cut shot being discussed a while back on this thread:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=113565

But it was never diagrammed or anything. Well, I think we now have a diagram, and a video, courtesy of Billiard Digest's "Stroke of Genius" series:

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/new_strokeofgenius/oct08index.php

Pretty cool! :)

poolhustler
10-27-2008, 05:21 PM
I hadn't seen that shot before, simply awesome!!!

Thanks for posting the link to it.

Russ...

emoney
10-27-2008, 06:06 PM
how in the world

Colin Colenso
10-27-2008, 06:32 PM
That shot looks like a much bigger cut than it actually is because of the camera angle over that end of the table. It's a common distortion effect.

When they showed the side angle camera shot you got a better sight of the angle. I'd guess about a 78 degree cut. Not super easy to judge using inside english and draw but Efren is used to applying back hand english.

Colin

Dawgie
10-27-2008, 06:36 PM
I love cuts. I'll take a cut over a bank anyday. Not saying in all circumstances but most.

ribdoner
10-27-2008, 06:38 PM
how in the world


magic.....

Flex
10-27-2008, 06:51 PM
Definitely a nice shot, but way easier than I expected to see given all the hype..

Think that shot's "hard"?

Set it up, and practice it a bit and it should become high percentage. It's all in the power of the stroke and the attendant aim.

If you don't make it within the first 10 snaps something's wrong with your stroke, at the least.

Not taking anything away from Effren's performance, but that shot is not that tough.


Flex

jeffwinters
10-27-2008, 07:06 PM
to execute that kind of a shot in an actual championship game, on a first try, on an unplanned situation, where you can't re-execute it when you fail is definitely tough.

Johnnyt
10-27-2008, 07:08 PM
Was that a little old Back-Hand English? Johnnyt

alstl
10-27-2008, 07:29 PM
If you don't have that video you should do yourself a favor and get it. The shot to finish off Pagulayan was equally impressive. Billy and Freddy are announcing and Billy comments that he will have to go for a combination or a bank on his next shot since the balls in the middle didn't seperate. He needs three balls to finish the eight and out. I doubt that anybody in the place saw this shot except the man at the table. Amazing shot to open up the runout.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2DAUD1FGPt1GFRH2LDhC1PSiI1bFRH1bAsJ1bAsJ2gDhC2gY vj2gadl1kSiI2kAvB1kJtl1kbqi1kHNQ1kHNQ1kGGh@

Patrick Johnson
10-27-2008, 07:40 PM
...that shot is not that tough.

LOL. Yeah, right.

He not only made the shot but also hit it with just enough speed and lots of inside english to avoid the 3rd rail and get shape on the 7.

pj
chgo

henho
10-27-2008, 07:42 PM
The shot is great but I am more entertained by Incardona going bonkers.

TXsouthpaw
10-27-2008, 07:59 PM
yeah that shot wasnt as hard as everyone made it seem. The perfect shape was harder than the shot.

smoooothstroke
10-27-2008, 08:12 PM
If you look at the angle that the CB takes off the OB you know it was a very thin cut.

It was sort of a free shot because he got safe near his opponents pocket but he could have left an easy bank.

ugotactionTX
10-27-2008, 08:22 PM
first of all there was nothing "free" about that shot IMHO There were multiple things that had to happen to avoid the sellout. Yes the cut by itself was not that hard(for someone like efren) But combine it with the shape and the circumstances knowing that any mistake with the ball or position could spell doom from someone like Jason. Just having the nerve to try it, much less pull it off is what impressed me the most

PoolBum
10-27-2008, 09:57 PM
I love cuts. I'll take a cut over a bank anyday. Not saying in all circumstances but most.

Yep, me too. If I can see the cut I know what I'm doing. There's always more guesswork in a bank for me when I can see the cut.

Flex
10-28-2008, 12:34 AM
to execute that kind of a shot in an actual championship game, on a first try, on an unplanned situation, where you can't re-execute it when you fail is definitely tough.

Not tough if it's a bread and butter shot for you. I bet it is for Effren.

In any case, it was a two way shot, and the ball went in the hole to make things better. He didn't just let go of the cue ball, he didn't slam it, he cut it in with extreme english and killed the cue ball off two rails.

If you've practiced a particular shot that is tough for others, but you've grooved it so well you could shoot it in your sleep, is it tough for you? Of course not.

FWIW, Effren didn't really seem phased by the shot at all. Why would he, he's probably shot it so many times it's practically a gimme for him.


Flex

Flex
10-28-2008, 12:36 AM
LOL. Yeah, right.

He not only made the shot but also hit it with just enough speed and lots of inside english to avoid the 3rd rail and get shape on the 7.

pj
chgo

Inside english? Sometimes terms get in the way of understanding what's going on. He shot that cut shot to the right with extreme right english, which slows down the cue ball in this case when it hits the rails, and straightens out the cue ball once it hits the top short rail. I think that kind of english when used in this case is called reverse english, or check english, or simply is called a kill shot.

The shot really isn't that tough, Pat. I'm sure if you practiced it enough and got your speed down and so on you could pull it off with ease. Not saying I could, but you probably could.

Also, just because I might not pull it off with ease doesn't make it that tough a shot... JMHO.

Flex

hurricane1972
10-28-2008, 03:00 AM
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=X1tgkLvyUME

AnitoKid
10-28-2008, 07:17 AM
It's a kind of magic. Magic. Magic!

Awesome! And I kid you not!



:)

shinobi
10-28-2008, 08:59 AM
The shot really isn't that tough, Pat. I'm sure if you practiced it enough and got your speed down and so on you could pull it off with ease. Not saying I could, but you probably could.Flex

The cut is easy, but shape is difficult. Have you actually tried this? I, and several other players at a local pool hall, have. It's _tough_.

If you use too much reverse English, the cueball shortens up too much off the first rail. If you don't use enough, it doesn't shorten up enough from the second rail. The angle that the cueball goes off the cut into the first rail is critical. And, different cloths and rails could affect it as well how well it bites, too.

Thus, for Reyes to recognize the exact angle, to put the precise amount of English on for a TV table (not exactly his home table) and to pull it off in one try under those conditions is marvelous.

Billy Incardona and Danny D know their stuff. They raved about it for good reason.

I also like it when Billy raves over the incredible draw shot Corey Deuel pulled off in another match that's been posted on AZ before :D

Anyway, set up the shot yourself and try it 50 times and see how often you reproduce it.

Patrick Johnson
10-28-2008, 09:39 AM
Me:
He not only made the shot but also hit it with just enough speed and lots of inside english to avoid the 3rd rail and get shape on the 7.

Inside english? Sometimes terms get in the way of understanding what's going on. He shot that cut shot to the right with extreme right english

[...]

I think that kind of english when used in this case is called reverse english, or check english, or simply is called a kill shot.

That's what it's called with respect to its action on the rails. With respect to the OB it's inside english. In other words, it's both.

The shot really isn't that tough, Pat. I'm sure if you practiced it enough and got your speed down and so on you could pull it off with ease. Not saying I could, but you probably could.

I think we both could.

Also, just because I might not pull it off with ease doesn't make it that tough a shot... JMHO.

It's a kind of shot, not just a particular shot. Efren judged the inside/holdup english and speed just right for that particular shot, and probably would have done the same thing even if the cut angle and rail angles were different. That's way different from you and I practicing this one particular shot a bunch of times until we can hit it right. What would we do if the shot that came up during a game was the same general kind but different in its details? Would we know the adjustments necessary?

And I think there are many shots that Efren pulls off with ease that are "tough" for anybody else, let alone you and me.

pj
chgo

Flex
10-28-2008, 10:48 AM
The cut is easy, but shape is difficult. Have you actually tried this? I, and several other players at a local pool hall, have. It's _tough_.

If you use too much reverse English, the cueball shortens up too much off the first rail. If you don't use enough, it doesn't shorten up enough from the second rail. The angle that the cueball goes off the cut into the first rail is critical. And, different cloths and rails could affect it as well how well it bites, too.

Thus, for Reyes to recognize the exact angle, to put the precise amount of English on for a TV table (not exactly his home table) and to pull it off in one try under those conditions is marvelous.

Billy Incardona and Danny D know their stuff. They raved about it for good reason.

I also like it when Billy raves over the incredible draw shot Corey Deuel pulled off in another match that's been posted on AZ before :D

Anyway, set up the shot yourself and try it 50 times and see how often you reproduce it.

That's a good suggestion. However, if I manage to pull it off a fairly good percentage of the time, do you really expect me to come back here and let everyone know that? :grin-square:

Flex

Flex
10-28-2008, 10:55 AM
It's a kind of shot, not just a particular shot. Efren judged the inside/holdup english and speed just right for that particular shot, and probably would have done the same thing even if the cut angle and rail angles were different. That's way different from you and I practicing this one particular shot a bunch of times until we can hit it right. What would we do if the shot that came up during a game was the same general kind but different in its details? Would we know the adjustments necessary?

And I think there are many shots that Efren pulls off with ease that are "tough" for anybody else, let alone you and me.

pj
chgo


Thanks, Pat, for your very thoughtful reply.

I agree with you: the real issue here is not setting up a shot with donuts on the table to be able to reproduce exactly the same shot so it can be repeated until it's easy. The issue is learning how to transform this kind of shot into a reference shot to be shot at will under varying conditions.

That's the only way to really take a shot like this and own it.

Thus, the angles can change, the cloth can change, the balls and humidity and everything else can change, and a really good player will take all that into account and pull the rabbit out of the hat with a shot like the one Effren shot.

IMHO, if someone wants to learn how to do that, they need to really work at it, and not for just one practice session. That kind of shot needs, first, to be made into a relatively high percentage shot in terms of making the ball, and second, practiced and adapted to differing table conditions to produce the desired, or close to desired, shape with the cue ball.

For such a reference shot to be kept fresh in one's mind and available for use, it needs to be practiced not infrequently, IMHO.

Flex

crosseyedjoe
10-28-2008, 11:02 AM
Inside english? Sometimes terms get in the way of understanding what's going on. He shot that cut shot to the right with extreme right english, which slows down the cue ball in this case when it hits the rails, and straightens out the cue ball once it hits the top short rail. I think that kind of english when used in this case is called reverse english, or check english, or simply is called a kill shot.

The shot really isn't that tough, Pat. I'm sure if you practiced it enough and got your speed down and so on you could pull it off with ease. Not saying I could, but you probably could.

Also, just because I might not pull it off with ease doesn't make it that tough a shot... JMHO.

Flex

POP QUESTION: Can you guess that shot on your own?

Samiel
10-28-2008, 12:00 PM
I bought this DVD from Accu-Stats after that DCC. Having watched it before, I didn't think a whole lot about. Now that I re-visit the shot, I am even more impressed. The angle is a lot steeper than I originally thought. Efren was on fire those last few rounds. Jason Miller didn't even get a ball!